Comments on: Notes Towards A List Of Post-Matrix Films

Question: Notes Towards A List Of Post-Matrix Films

ninebelow — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 02:23:17 -0800

Post-Matrix films?

What action films are clearly post-Matrix? Not neccessarily science fiction but probably. Guns, martial arts, wire work, bullet-time, excessive slo-mo, etc. So for example: Equalibrium and Ultraviolet.

By: terpsichoria

terpsichoria — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 02:25:31 -0800

V for Vendetta. Depressingly so.

By: ryrivard

ryrivard — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 02:28:01 -0800

The Matrix's influence is neither original or necessarily one of quality.

There was slow-motion fighting, essentially bullet-time with swords, in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon which came out pre-Matrix, and there was full-scale bullet-time in Charlie's Angels (2, I think, but not 1) post-Matrix.

By: gauchodaspampas

gauchodaspampas — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 02:45:32 -0800

The One

Also, IMDB has a section for every movie of "connections," including other movies that reference the particular movie. In the case of the Matrix, though, it's not particularly helpful, since the list is so long and hard to sort through. Also, it never says exactly what the reference is. I don't know why, since when you submit a new connection, you have to give a detailed description for them to verify it. They ought to include those descriptions for everyone to see.

By: sizemore

sizemore — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 03:08:23 -0800

Brotherhood of the Wolf has some snazzy fight sequences, isn't sci fi and has the best disolve from breasts into snow covered mountains that I've ever seen. Oh and it did the five endings thing way before Return of the King too.

By: martinrebas

martinrebas — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 04:17:18 -0800

Underworld.

By: slimepuppy

slimepuppy — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 04:54:09 -0800

The second Resident Evil film.
House of the Dead.

Oddly enough, these films were made by the two most talentless people working in Hollywood today.

By: intermod

intermod — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:25:56 -0800

Huh? Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon (2000) came out over a year after The Matrix (1999). See also Woo-ping Yuen -- you'll find lots of these kinds of movies in his credits.

By: kimota

kimota — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:27:04 -0800

I second Underworld. I've only seen it once, but the entire time I was watching it I was thinking that it seemed to have been conceived while watching the Matrix, then written while watching the Matrix, with art direction developed while watching the Matrix....

(Also, at the risk of derailing, terpsichoria, I'd like to hear a little more of what you mean.)

By: ninebelow

ninebelow — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:31:49 -0800

The Matrix's influence is neither original or necessarily one of quality.

It's influence is definitely unrelated to quality but I don't see what originality has to do with it: it either influences something or it doesn't.

Charlie's Angels, The One and Brotherhood of the Wolf are all good examples of what I was after. The Transporter as well maybe?

Don't remember anything very Matrixy in Underworld or the second Resident Evil film.

By: ninebelow

ninebelow — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:32:38 -0800

kimota, I guess I have a bad memory. Add Underworld to the list.

By: meehawl

meehawl — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:45:58 -0800

I'd describe The Matrix as a post-Blade movie. And also a post Dark City movie. Matrix borrowed its slow-mo, POV rotation, and combat/movement stylisation from Blade, and its "lost city" vibe and reborn superhero thing from Dark City.

By: doctor_negative

doctor_negative — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:52:47 -0800

The Night Watch, a Russian film in theatres now, in the US.

By: meehawl

meehawl — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:55:49 -0800

Of course, it just occurred to me that one of the strongest Dark City->Matrix influences is that Matrix actually began shooting right after Dark City, and used many of the same stages and sets.

By: jdroth

jdroth — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:56:11 -0800

There was slow-motion fighting, essentially bullet-time with swords, in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon which came out pre-Matrix

???

Crouching Tiger came after The Matrix. Also, though I can't swear by it (because I haven't watched it in the past few months), I don't think there's slo-mo fighting in Crouching Tiger. It's all choreographed at normal speed. In fact, sometimes it seems as if the action is accelerated. That's part of what makes it so fun.

By: kimota

kimota — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:57:09 -0800

meehawl, I had been under the impression that the bullet-time sequence was developed by the Wachowskis (or their production crew), but the effect got used elsewhere a few times before the first Matrix movie. Can anyone confirm or disprove that?

Also, ninebelow, the similarites between Underworld and the Matrix that I can remember off the top of my head are: planned as a trilogy with a 'fully fleshed out mythology' as backstory, long action sequences, the green tinge of the Matrix vs. the blue tinge of Underworld, plus the guns, martial arts, and wire work.

By: mojohand

mojohand — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:57:25 -0800

I'll nth Underworld. And since this question seems to have been mostly answered, I'd like to pose another. Underworld. Here you had cool decadent aristo vampires, cool grungy rebely werewolves, great cars, enough automatic weapons to fully equip a Ranger battalion, and Kate Beckinsale in a rubber suit that makes Carrie-Ann Moss' outfit look Victorian. How did Len Wiseman **** up that movie so badly?

By: junkbox

junkbox — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 06:02:47 -0800

Second Doctor Negative -- though I'd call Night Watch post-Matrix in a good way. I thought they used Matrix-y effects sparingly and with an eye towards advancing the story, whereas the Matrix and its sequels just pounded you over the head with bullet-time. I thought it learned from some of Matrix's mistakes, as it were. The fact that it had a budget of $4.2 million probably helped.

By: sizemore

sizemore — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 06:26:40 -0800

kimota - I seem to remember some nice slo mo effects and lots of bright red blood splashing into white paint in the Wachowski's earlier film Bound. Was that a test run for bullet time? It's ages since I saw it and all the bits I remember feature Jennifer Tilly squealing and not much else.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 06:44:28 -0800

Matrix borrowed its slow-mo, POV rotation, and combat/movement stylisation from Blade

Surely both Blade and Matrix borrowed much of that from Ghost in the Shell...

By: chazlarson

chazlarson — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 06:52:47 -0800

>the effect got used elsewhere a few times before the first Matrix movie. Can anyone confirm or disprove that?

The first place I remember seeing it was in that Gap ad with the kids swing-dancing.

http://swing-music.com/movs/swing.hires.mov

There are notes on where Gaeta got the idea here:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.05/matrix2.html?pg=3

My takeaway from that is that components of the idea were used elsewhere earlier, but Gaeta expanded and developed the technique for The Matrix.

By: Inkoate

Inkoate — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 06:55:36 -0800

I believe I've read somewhere that the first commercial test of "bullet time" was actually the Khakis Swing ad for the Gap.

By: Roger Dodger

Roger Dodger — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:02:28 -0800

It's been a while since I've seen it, but the Matrix bonus cds have an entire chapter on bullet time. I'm pretty sure it describes the history and where else it had been used...

By: Robot Johnny

Robot Johnny — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:10:02 -0800

I believe I've read somewhere that the first commercial test of "bullet time" was actually the Khakis Swing ad for the Gap.
...
I'm pretty sure it describes the history and where else it had been used...

Wasn't it used (crudely) for the Rolling Stones' video for their cover of "Like a Rolling Stone"?

By: blueshammer

blueshammer — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:10:56 -0800

The "premiere" use of the bullet-time effect, I'm pretty sure, were those GAP swing-dancing commercials. Holla?

By: Atreides

Atreides — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:18:56 -0800

Mission Impossible 2 used the slow-revolving POV in a fight scene, as well.

By: StickyCarpet

StickyCarpet — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:19:27 -0800

The GAP ad, also a Wendy's ad I believe. Those guys built a rig comprised of hundreds of tiny cameras mounted in a row. The Matrix effect was done differently. It used computer interpolation between more widely spaced cameras with software developed by Kodak, since available from many sources.

By: Danelope

Danelope — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:25:40 -0800

Alien vs. Predator used slow-motion and bullet time -- and quite poorly at that -- for facehugger attacks.

By: Scoo

Scoo — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:33:23 -0800

Spider-Man has some slo-mo scenes during his fight with Flash Thompson in school, and while dodging the Green Goblin's razor bats in the burning building towards the end. If used correctly, it's a great way to portray superhuman reflexes. Peter's little "Hmm" reaction to how slow Flash's fist seems to be moving is priceless.

[geek]Batman and DareDevil, I can see them being mowed down with a Mac 10 EASY. Spidey OTOH operates on an entirely different plane of perception: spider sense + incredible speed and agility = near impossible target.[/geek]

By: flipper

flipper — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 07:56:17 -0800

Mojohand asks, about Underworld:

Here you had cool decadent aristo vampires, cool grungy rebely werewolves, great cars, enough automatic weapons to fully equip a Ranger battalion, and Kate Beckinsale in a rubber suit that makes Carrie-Ann Moss' outfit look Victorian. How did Len Wiseman **** up that movie so badly?

Yup, it had everything except interesting characters and an understandable plot.

By: jmd82

jmd82 — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:09:25 -0800

How did Len Wiseman **** up that movie so badly?
Thank you. It ended up being one of those movies I sat through thinking, "OK, it's going to get better any moment now...annnnnnny momment now." Sadly, that thought process never ended.

By: Ateo Fiel

Ateo Fiel — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:18:08 -0800

The Wachowski Brothers (or is that brother and sister now?) were very clear that they borrowed alot of the look and feel from anime. They came up with some new tech that is then used in alot of action films.

It would be like saying the first movie to use a steadycam was then copied by every movie after it. The new movies just use whatever tech is out there.

I know Swordfish used the slow-mo spin to great effect in its opening sequence.

By: Jart

Jart — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:34:55 -0800

The freeze-rotate effect was also used in "Wing Commander" - easy to forget, since no one actually saw it.

By: longbaugh

longbaugh — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:44:04 -0800

Sorry Scoo,

[geek]Batman wears body armour and would never be in a position whereby he didn't have the upper hand and DareDevil can hear the bones in your finger cracking slightly as you depress the trigger and moves out of the way before you even fully pull it.[/geek]

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon does have a couple of slow motion sequences, primarily during the fights between Zhang Ziyi and Michelle Yeoh.

I can't stand to watch this sort of "arty-fighting" film myself - I much prefer something along the lines of The Way Of The Gun, which barring ridiculous magazine capacities has one of the finest ending shootouts in modern film.

By: ikkyu2

ikkyu2 — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:47:44 -0800

Bullet time is not new.

By: robocop is bleeding

robocop is bleeding — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 09:29:16 -0800

Kung-fu Hustle

By: small_ruminant

small_ruminant — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 10:13:09 -0800

I always thought bullet time was a John Woo invention. Maybe it was just John Woo inspired.

If anyone saw Avalon (Japanese but filmed in Poland in Polish) it was a very Matrix influenced movie.

actually, "Matrix rip-off" was what came to mind when I watched it.

By: Lactoso

Lactoso — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 10:21:01 -0800

Scoo & Longbaugh,

I guess this train of thought doesn't bode well for Aquaman and Wonderwoman, eh? Or has Aquaman already succumbed to ocean pollution? :-)

I read an interview with Milla Jovovich (currently in Ultraviolet) where they mention the new gunkatta craze. Way overdone IMO and becoming quite annoying. I blame Mr. Woo.

Cheers,
Ed T.

By: knave

knave — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 10:30:22 -0800

I'd say both Hero and House of Flying Daggers are derivative in this sense.

By: Squid Voltaire

Squid Voltaire — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 10:43:22 -0800

I second the request for more V for Vendetta info--have you actually seen it? I just finished the graphic novel last weekend, and it was really, truly as good as everyone said. For the movie... on the one hand, I read a review by a fan of the comic and he liked it a lot. On the other hand, Alan Moore lent his name to both From Hell and League of X-Traordinary Gentlemen... but on this film he has threatened to sue if his name is so much as mentioned. That cannot bode well.

By: terpsichoria

terpsichoria — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:31:08 -0800

Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression I'd seen V (although I intend to as soon as I can) - I'm a huge fan of the book, and I've been following the film through its gestation in the hope it might actually be good, but the footage I've seen in various trailers and teasers over the last few months has shown up a lot of Matrix influence. There's a certain element of glorification of and revelling in the story's violence, rather than dealing with it in what I'd describe as an expedient way as Moore did in the original - lots of loving slow-motion spins around V as he flings knives, lots of impact shots as bullets find their targets and so on. There was a sort of violent masturbatory tone in The Matrix - a revelling in the consequence-free blowing away of hordes of faceless goons which strikes me as horribly at odds with the atmosphere of V.

By: PinkStainlessTail

PinkStainlessTail — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 12:45:23 -0800

How did Len Wiseman **** up that movie so badly?

It needed a Frankenstein.

(Yes I know. You don't have to correct me. It was deliberate.)

By: meehawl

meehawl — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 13:20:03 -0800

Alan Moore lent his name to both From Hell and League of X-Traordinary Gentlemen

Moore refuses to collaborate with scriptwriters for his movies, disowns them entirely, claims to try to avoid watching them as much as possible, and I am not entirely sure about this, but after Constantine in an interview said he would be donating future movie licencing royalties to other artists involved in the creation of those characters.

By: RoseovSharon

RoseovSharon — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 13:43:08 -0800

Equilibrium with Chrisitane Bale.

By: PinkStainlessTail

PinkStainlessTail — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:03:52 -0800

I am not entirely sure about this, but after Constantine in an interview said he would be donating future movie licencing royalties to other artists involved in the creation of those characters.

I think it was after he saw the final script for V for Vendetta actually. I know I'm not planning on seeing it.

By: pantsrobot

pantsrobot — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 17:05:29 -0800

but after Constantine
Wasn't that after The League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen? God, did they manage to totally mess that up

By: posadnitsa

posadnitsa — Thu, 09 Mar 2006 17:34:10 -0800

I second Night Watch.

By: ninebelow

ninebelow — Fri, 10 Mar 2006 06:54:17 -0800

Ateo Fiel: its not so much a specific technology like the steadycam but a suite of techniques and styles.

small_ruminant: I thought Avalon was a lot more interesting than The Matrix. Besides since Mamoru Oshii made the films that were so influential on The Matrix turn about is only fair play.

RoseovSharon: good example, why didn't I think of that? ;)