Smart kid won't do worksheets
December 9, 2019 11:50 AM Subscribe
Kid Marfa is in fifth grade and refuses to do ungraded worksheets or participate in class discussions in school. She is only willing to work on things that get graded. She does well on tests and projects, so it's clear she understands the material. Standardized testing also said she was at a sixth grade level. However, the teacher keeps escalating and doesn't have any useful strategies. What can we do?
According to the teacher, Kid Marfa is not disruptive. Apparently she doodles at her desk during class. We make sure she does her homework every night and she turns in all graded work in school. However, the teacher is very frustrated by the drawing and lack of participation.
Lately her teacher has started calling us or sending her to the special ed classroom during school because "she looks sad" and won't do the ungraded work in class. In one instance, she sent her to sit alone in someone's office. We're worried that Kid Marfa will miss out on learning opportunities and don't like that she's being sent out of the room.
When we talk to her, Kid Marfa says she is not sad, just bored, and that she just doesn't care about work that doesn't get graded. If you've been in a similar situation, what worked? What did you do?
According to the teacher, Kid Marfa is not disruptive. Apparently she doodles at her desk during class. We make sure she does her homework every night and she turns in all graded work in school. However, the teacher is very frustrated by the drawing and lack of participation.
Lately her teacher has started calling us or sending her to the special ed classroom during school because "she looks sad" and won't do the ungraded work in class. In one instance, she sent her to sit alone in someone's office. We're worried that Kid Marfa will miss out on learning opportunities and don't like that she's being sent out of the room.
When we talk to her, Kid Marfa says she is not sad, just bored, and that she just doesn't care about work that doesn't get graded. If you've been in a similar situation, what worked? What did you do?
If she says she is bored, you might have her tested for talented and gifted. Standardized tests do not measure the same thing. Also, the teacher is being inappropriate by sending her to sit in a room alone - this will do nothing for her motivation. The teacher admits that your child is not being disruptive, so it is clearly punitive for no reason. Escalate to the principal, this doesn't sound right.
posted by turtlefu at 12:01 PM on December 9, 2019 [42 favorites]
posted by turtlefu at 12:01 PM on December 9, 2019 [42 favorites]
It sounds like she's not getting the kind of challenges she enjoys? If she's bored by the non graded work, doesn't that by definition mean she's not learning anything from it? Since learning (true learning, as opposed to memorising stuff or going through the motions) is the most fun one can have? Doing boring work and not even getting grades for it sounds pretty grim. Is there a way to find out what she does find interesting? Possibly art?
I was a diligent kid who spent my time drawing in class and wasn't motivated by what I was supposed to be learning because what I valued (writing, art, learning about the natural world) was not valued as "real learning".
posted by Zumbador at 12:07 PM on December 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
I was a diligent kid who spent my time drawing in class and wasn't motivated by what I was supposed to be learning because what I valued (writing, art, learning about the natural world) was not valued as "real learning".
posted by Zumbador at 12:07 PM on December 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
Agreed that this is a problem. Are you familiar with Bloom's taxonomy? The basic idea is that if your kid is doing great with something the idea is not to give them more content but to master the content more deeply. Often this means teaching/ helping out the other kids in the classroom. Perhaps this could be a short term solution until something like a G&T program is available? This may also help the teacher with the whole "child isn't doing anything" problem.
posted by raccoon409 at 12:09 PM on December 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by raccoon409 at 12:09 PM on December 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
If she's doing her graded homework, you're way ahead of the game. When I was a kid, I wouldn't even do that — I got A's and B's on all my tests, and my grades depended on how offended teachers were that I wouldn't also do the busy-work they assigned. The best thing is to get others on board with the idea that your kid does not need special education or being sent from the room, but special projects which challenge her (and get graded). I would start by discussing this with her teacher, who may just need a little nudging, but if that doesn't work, escalate. Almost every school system has SOME way to deal with non-typical yet bright students, though it may be a challenge to find. Good luck!
posted by ubiquity at 12:13 PM on December 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by ubiquity at 12:13 PM on December 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
What’s going on with her socially? Because it is totally legitimate to just be so bored by certain schoolwork that you don’t see the point, but it sounds like she’s not interested in engaging with her classmates at all, either, which is odd.
posted by rue72 at 12:21 PM on December 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by rue72 at 12:21 PM on December 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
This sounds like me -- I was bored senseless by repetitive work that didn't really count towards anything. I tested as Mentally Gifted (which probably goes by another name now) and got to take special classes that were smaller and allowed a deeper dive into things.
(Incidentally, if you're worried about her not learning to buckle down and work through bullshit, which is a necessary life skill, I promise, she'll learn that elsewhere/when. Right now she just sounds really bored and unchallenged, honestly, and getting her into gifted classes or just getting her something interesting to do will go a long way.)
posted by kalimac at 12:23 PM on December 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
(Incidentally, if you're worried about her not learning to buckle down and work through bullshit, which is a necessary life skill, I promise, she'll learn that elsewhere/when. Right now she just sounds really bored and unchallenged, honestly, and getting her into gifted classes or just getting her something interesting to do will go a long way.)
posted by kalimac at 12:23 PM on December 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
"sending her to the special ed classroom during school because "she looks sad"
This seems wildly inappropriate, and I'm surprised that the SpEd teacher hasn't complained about it. Is the SpEd teacher being asked to take away from his/her time with actual SpEd students to entertain/engage/look after your child?
If nothing else, this is the thing that should get the principal's attention.
posted by mccxxiii at 12:23 PM on December 9, 2019 [8 favorites]
This seems wildly inappropriate, and I'm surprised that the SpEd teacher hasn't complained about it. Is the SpEd teacher being asked to take away from his/her time with actual SpEd students to entertain/engage/look after your child?
If nothing else, this is the thing that should get the principal's attention.
posted by mccxxiii at 12:23 PM on December 9, 2019 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Apparently the special ed teacher is fine with our kid being sent there. I don't think she's entertaining Kid Marfa, but that it's instead treated as a quieter place to hang out.
Kid has lot of friends! She was frustrated in class when the teacher sat her next to a friend who started criticizing her for not doing the work though. They had some sort of argument. They still spend a ton of time talking outside of school though.
Our district doesn't have a gifted and talented program, but if you can recommend places that do testing (and what tests we'd need) or that could give us advice, we can look into it. We're located in Massachusetts.
posted by marfa, texas at 12:28 PM on December 9, 2019
Kid has lot of friends! She was frustrated in class when the teacher sat her next to a friend who started criticizing her for not doing the work though. They had some sort of argument. They still spend a ton of time talking outside of school though.
Our district doesn't have a gifted and talented program, but if you can recommend places that do testing (and what tests we'd need) or that could give us advice, we can look into it. We're located in Massachusetts.
posted by marfa, texas at 12:28 PM on December 9, 2019
There's potentially a boredom issue here, as others have said, but also possibly/alongside a deeper problem. It sounds like her engagement with learning may be driven entirely by external consequences/reinforcers. That is the worst possible way to be if she is going to go through both school and the rest of her life with curiosity and openness, rather than just ticking off boxes. Are you modeling for her pursuit of the active life of the mind for its own sake? Does she know she's responsible for what's in her own brain, and in the long run, grades don't matter?
posted by praemunire at 12:30 PM on December 9, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 12:30 PM on December 9, 2019 [6 favorites]
How long does it take her to complete her homework? If she's agonizing over it and taking a long time to get everything exactly right, it could be a processing speed or performance anxiety issue, where she doesn't want to do the in-class worksheet or speak up out of fear of running out of time or making a public mistake. If homework isn't an issue, she's probably just bored.
posted by Flannery Culp at 12:32 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Flannery Culp at 12:32 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
God, do I love your daughter!
Your girl is fine. Her teacher is a mediocrity who is offended that your girl is not one.
Sit your girl down and explain to her how things are. She is correct that there is no point in her doing work that doesn't add to her understanding. However, unfortunately, her teacher is offended by this; and other students may eventually be as well: by demonstrating that the assigned work isn't necessary to achieve a good grade, she is impugning either the teaching materials or the other students' relative ability.
So she needs to think about her goals. If her goal is to not offend the teacher, she will need to modify her behavior. (Although I think the discipline of being sent to the special ed room is appalling and I would talk to the principal about that like TODAY, but the principal may be just as stupid as the teachers.)
If she doesn't care about offending the teacher/other people and reaping those consequences, well, you have her back.
Have a look at this op-ed if you can get past the firewall. It's -- loosely -- about how girls grind out more work in school than boys do, but aren't rewarded for it later in the job market. My suspicion is that learning how to get the desired results with a MINIMUM of work is a really valuable life skill.
Please give her a big hug and a high five from this random mom on the Internet.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:45 PM on December 9, 2019 [34 favorites]
Your girl is fine. Her teacher is a mediocrity who is offended that your girl is not one.
Sit your girl down and explain to her how things are. She is correct that there is no point in her doing work that doesn't add to her understanding. However, unfortunately, her teacher is offended by this; and other students may eventually be as well: by demonstrating that the assigned work isn't necessary to achieve a good grade, she is impugning either the teaching materials or the other students' relative ability.
So she needs to think about her goals. If her goal is to not offend the teacher, she will need to modify her behavior. (Although I think the discipline of being sent to the special ed room is appalling and I would talk to the principal about that like TODAY, but the principal may be just as stupid as the teachers.)
If she doesn't care about offending the teacher/other people and reaping those consequences, well, you have her back.
Have a look at this op-ed if you can get past the firewall. It's -- loosely -- about how girls grind out more work in school than boys do, but aren't rewarded for it later in the job market. My suspicion is that learning how to get the desired results with a MINIMUM of work is a really valuable life skill.
Please give her a big hug and a high five from this random mom on the Internet.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:45 PM on December 9, 2019 [34 favorites]
It's entirely anecdotal, but when I was around the same age and absolutely hating every moment in class, a teacher took me aside and had a long discussion about what he called "metacognition." In this instance, what he meant was more or less a strategy for getting through boring classes by analyzing the classes themselves. Replace the "what do you know" that's actually on the stupid worksheet with "how do we know?" Pretend the teacher asked a more interesting question and answer it instead. Treat a class discussion as experiment to see how to divert the discussion in more interesting directions by searching for far flung analogues and comparisons. (Doing it ethically, in way that doesn't leave other people feeling bad, is important and worth talking about.)
It sounds a bit silly and requires a certain amount of arrogance - you basically have to believe that you're smarter than your teachers - but it genuinely made the end of elementary school and all of junior high bearable for me. That teacher give me a real gift. You can put up with a lot of bullshit if you're spending the entire time imagining how you could teach the class better and always asking, "what is the most interesting thing one could ask about this material" rather than railing against how boring the actual class is.
Best of luck to your kid!
posted by eotvos at 1:02 PM on December 9, 2019 [32 favorites]
It sounds a bit silly and requires a certain amount of arrogance - you basically have to believe that you're smarter than your teachers - but it genuinely made the end of elementary school and all of junior high bearable for me. That teacher give me a real gift. You can put up with a lot of bullshit if you're spending the entire time imagining how you could teach the class better and always asking, "what is the most interesting thing one could ask about this material" rather than railing against how boring the actual class is.
Best of luck to your kid!
posted by eotvos at 1:02 PM on December 9, 2019 [32 favorites]
It is absolutely inappropriate for the teacher to be removing your daughter from class if she is not being disruptive. I can't favorite the answer from fingersandtoes hard enough.
I was the same way as a kid, to an even greater extent, since I was also uninterested in graded work. Your kid is just a little bit smarter than I was, I think. Eventually I was bumped ahead a couple years in English and eventually sent to the local community college for some classes. This solved some of the boredom but came with its own issues, mostly related social isolation and/or not knowing how to behave as an adolescent among young adults.
I agree with raccoon409 that it's her teacher's problem to find a way to integrate her into the classroom environment in a way that engages her, or just learn to deal with being tuned out. You could try and sell your kid on "you have to do the useless dumb thing to make the other person happy even if it seems useless and dumb" and that's an important lesson to learn, but also a fairly difficult one.
posted by jordemort at 2:08 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
I was the same way as a kid, to an even greater extent, since I was also uninterested in graded work. Your kid is just a little bit smarter than I was, I think. Eventually I was bumped ahead a couple years in English and eventually sent to the local community college for some classes. This solved some of the boredom but came with its own issues, mostly related social isolation and/or not knowing how to behave as an adolescent among young adults.
I agree with raccoon409 that it's her teacher's problem to find a way to integrate her into the classroom environment in a way that engages her, or just learn to deal with being tuned out. You could try and sell your kid on "you have to do the useless dumb thing to make the other person happy even if it seems useless and dumb" and that's an important lesson to learn, but also a fairly difficult one.
posted by jordemort at 2:08 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
Her teacher is not handling this at all well, but also your daughter refusing to participate in discussions or do ungraded work in class does seem rather disruptive—school is not optional and it is not just about literal attendance and homework, and her friend has already gotten upset because she sees your daughter refusing to do her work in class.
So what would help your daughter participate more? Does she want harder work? Is she actually uncomfortable with speaking up in class? Can she do the work quickly and then doodle/read for a bit afterwards? Does she need a concrete goal in terms of participation that she can aim for? Can she be motivated by the fact that it matters to you that she is engaged and participating in class? Are there some classes that she enjoys more so she can participate more in those at least? I think figuring out something which isn’t just her completely opting out of the non-graded components would be helpful.
posted by pie_seven at 2:16 PM on December 9, 2019 [4 favorites]
So what would help your daughter participate more? Does she want harder work? Is she actually uncomfortable with speaking up in class? Can she do the work quickly and then doodle/read for a bit afterwards? Does she need a concrete goal in terms of participation that she can aim for? Can she be motivated by the fact that it matters to you that she is engaged and participating in class? Are there some classes that she enjoys more so she can participate more in those at least? I think figuring out something which isn’t just her completely opting out of the non-graded components would be helpful.
posted by pie_seven at 2:16 PM on December 9, 2019 [4 favorites]
I agree that this might actually be disruptive. The teacher might be concerned that other kids will start refusing to do the ungraded work and she’ll lose control of the class and nobody will learn anything. I also don’t think that anyone can say with certainty that this teacher is mediocre and simply doesn’t like that your daughter is not mediocre. We can’t know that and it sets things up as a us against her dynamic that won’t be helpful at all.
If I was your child’s teacher I would surprise her by starting to grade everything.
posted by catspajammies at 2:27 PM on December 9, 2019 [6 favorites]
If I was your child’s teacher I would surprise her by starting to grade everything.
posted by catspajammies at 2:27 PM on December 9, 2019 [6 favorites]
Yeah, that's a difficult situation... for her and for you. To my mind, it's important for you as a parent to show support for your daughter and respect her position, and let her know that she's not alone. I'd counsel your daughter to search for ways she can challenge herself in class (and outside of class). Maybe read with her Paul Graham's essay, _The Lesson to Unlearn_.
Maybe work with the teacher, perhaps she can make all activities graded?
posted by at at 2:33 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
Maybe work with the teacher, perhaps she can make all activities graded?
posted by at at 2:33 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
When does your middle school start? Because I would honestly wait this out if Kid is about to get 6 teachers a day instead of one. Middle school might naturally open up more different types of teacher relationships and more opportunities for after school clubs etc.
I don't really remember how grades worked back in 5th grade for me but I feel like there was some component of class participation or discussion?
posted by nakedmolerats at 2:35 PM on December 9, 2019
I don't really remember how grades worked back in 5th grade for me but I feel like there was some component of class participation or discussion?
posted by nakedmolerats at 2:35 PM on December 9, 2019
It may or may not be relevant, but it seems worth pointing out that gifted education is often taught as a subset of special ed. So the special ed teacher might be the person most prepared to help, and I'd suggest trying to talk to them about it directly.
posted by Wobbuffet at 2:42 PM on December 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Wobbuffet at 2:42 PM on December 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
You could try and sell your kid on "you have to do the useless dumb thing to make the other person happy even if it seems useless and dumb" and that's an important lesson to learn, but also a fairly difficult one.
I was thinking about this a little more. I'd say a neurotypical fifth-grader should already be significantly on her way to grasping the concept of "sometimes the stuff you have to do doesn't seem all that meaningful and rewarding, especially in the short run" and developing strategies to deal with that. Having zero such skills will serve her extremely poorly in the future. It's not only dumb arbitrary tasks that don't seem all that meaningful or rewarding. Most projects of any complexity have tasks or periods in which nothing is all that meaningful or rewarding. (A legal brief, which appears to be an entirely intellectual affair, is actually about 65% fiddly small stuff, at least by time expended.) Boring the kid just to bore her would be pointless and cruel, but teaching her that she can just opt out of tedium because as a Smart Person she deserves only interesting work (a distinct undertone in some of the comments here) is a recipe for disaster, just later on.
posted by praemunire at 2:48 PM on December 9, 2019 [22 favorites]
I was thinking about this a little more. I'd say a neurotypical fifth-grader should already be significantly on her way to grasping the concept of "sometimes the stuff you have to do doesn't seem all that meaningful and rewarding, especially in the short run" and developing strategies to deal with that. Having zero such skills will serve her extremely poorly in the future. It's not only dumb arbitrary tasks that don't seem all that meaningful or rewarding. Most projects of any complexity have tasks or periods in which nothing is all that meaningful or rewarding. (A legal brief, which appears to be an entirely intellectual affair, is actually about 65% fiddly small stuff, at least by time expended.) Boring the kid just to bore her would be pointless and cruel, but teaching her that she can just opt out of tedium because as a Smart Person she deserves only interesting work (a distinct undertone in some of the comments here) is a recipe for disaster, just later on.
posted by praemunire at 2:48 PM on December 9, 2019 [22 favorites]
Related question: Why is the teacher making them do ungraded worksheets? If they're not being graded, does that mean they're not being corrected at all? So is there any potential for learning here, or is she just filling out forms?
Presuming that there's a good reason why she is being given ungraded worksheets -- and "to keep them occupied/quiet" is probably not a good reason -- can you help her understand WHY she's being told to do it even though it seems to be of no consequence? Maybe if she understood the reasoning and purpose behind it, not that it's just some stupid hoop to jump through because Teacher Said So, that would help her get into it a little bit more?
posted by mccxxiii at 3:30 PM on December 9, 2019 [6 favorites]
Presuming that there's a good reason why she is being given ungraded worksheets -- and "to keep them occupied/quiet" is probably not a good reason -- can you help her understand WHY she's being told to do it even though it seems to be of no consequence? Maybe if she understood the reasoning and purpose behind it, not that it's just some stupid hoop to jump through because Teacher Said So, that would help her get into it a little bit more?
posted by mccxxiii at 3:30 PM on December 9, 2019 [6 favorites]
As a gifted kid, I haaaaated class participation requirements. And by being in too-easy classes, I never really learned how to struggle to learn something hard, which might have come in handy in organic chemistry in college. I think you need to get involved. At minimum, this teacher shouldn't be negatively singling her out. At best, you can get her into situations where she'll be learning more.
posted by slidell at 3:57 PM on December 9, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by slidell at 3:57 PM on December 9, 2019 [4 favorites]
I have distinct memories of not being thrilled about extra work just because I had finished the assigned work. I know that if the assigned work had not been graded, I would have been even more angry about it. There are specific things I did like being able to do, like some word problems or extra times tables in math, or a puppet show in English. So, if extra work for her is the solution, please make sure she has a say in what the extra work is. The old canard about being so good at your job that you get to everyone else's job is true in my experience, so be realistic that this is something she will have to deal with forever.
posted by soelo at 4:37 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by soelo at 4:37 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm surprised and disappointed at most of the comments here. They seem very much like "Well, us Smarts can't be asked to do the work of the Lesser People! That's WAY beneath us. And did I mention that I, too, am Gifted?" C'mon, guys.
I can't favorite praemunire's comments enough.
It's great that your kid does well on tests and projects! It's great that she's slightly above grade level! But she's slightly above grade level, not like eight years ahead of her peers. I teach math, and there is definitely a lot of relevant math that a kid slightly ahead of grade level can learn. If her teacher is pretty good, you might request that some of the non-graded assignments be replaced with slightly harder ones, to make sure that she's getting an appropriate level of challenge. (Sometimes this can be as simple as replacing "questions 5, 6, 7, and 9" with "questions 7, 9, 14 and 15".)
In my math class, everyone's job is to learn math every day, whether they're struggling to do the grade-level stuff, or they're working on a really hard variation of the same idea. Because school is about learning, not getting good grades. Obviously fifth grade grades are completely unimportant in life. But developing a strong foundation in number sense, mathematical thinking, and problem solving (not to mention the ability to work on things that are hard) is much more important.
posted by MangoNews at 4:54 PM on December 9, 2019 [19 favorites]
I can't favorite praemunire's comments enough.
It's great that your kid does well on tests and projects! It's great that she's slightly above grade level! But she's slightly above grade level, not like eight years ahead of her peers. I teach math, and there is definitely a lot of relevant math that a kid slightly ahead of grade level can learn. If her teacher is pretty good, you might request that some of the non-graded assignments be replaced with slightly harder ones, to make sure that she's getting an appropriate level of challenge. (Sometimes this can be as simple as replacing "questions 5, 6, 7, and 9" with "questions 7, 9, 14 and 15".)
In my math class, everyone's job is to learn math every day, whether they're struggling to do the grade-level stuff, or they're working on a really hard variation of the same idea. Because school is about learning, not getting good grades. Obviously fifth grade grades are completely unimportant in life. But developing a strong foundation in number sense, mathematical thinking, and problem solving (not to mention the ability to work on things that are hard) is much more important.
posted by MangoNews at 4:54 PM on December 9, 2019 [19 favorites]
My wife met with the school counselor about my daughter's delinquent homework and projects, suggesting they fail her and/or make her repeat the year, since nothing else seemed to be working. She was just very stubborn. The school refused to fail her because they could tell she knew the work from tests and exams. Eventually at Community College some sort of light bulb went off and she turned herself around.
She now has a master's degree and is a teacher. She has to deal with high school kids who just refuse to do their homework and/or don't hand in their projects on time or at all. No, I'm not making this up.
posted by forthright at 6:29 PM on December 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
She now has a master's degree and is a teacher. She has to deal with high school kids who just refuse to do their homework and/or don't hand in their projects on time or at all. No, I'm not making this up.
posted by forthright at 6:29 PM on December 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
I am an accountant and battle-scarred survivor of “gifted” culture (as praemunire so eloquently describes it). While I commend your daughter on her aptitude for cost-benefit analysis, I agree with others that she is ready for a new lesson: the “sometimes you have to do seemingly pointless busy work, and sometimes the reasons aren’t as stupid as they seem” lesson.
The ungraded worksheets are tough to argue logically, especially if the teacher isn’t even reviewing them. But I can offer up a defense for the class participation: if the (presumptive) smartest kids in the class participate, the other kids’ understanding of the material might improve, too.
If that argument is too altruistic, there’s also this one, which is fresh in my mind from the master’s cohort I graduated with a few months ago: even someone who feels very confident in their knowledge of the material should ask sincere clarifying questions once in a while, even if it feels fake. Sometimes you’re right, and you get to show that off, which is fun; other times, you find out you actually have a lot more to learn.
Besides: by the time she gets to undergrad, she’ll see that class-discussion monopolizers can only be vanquished by other people participating and asking thoughtful questions. Rolling your eyes because everyone else is so far behind you only compounds the frustration, because at least one of those people thinks participation points are a zero-sum game, and that person just discovered the word “whatnot” and is trying to work it into every sentence.
posted by armeowda at 6:31 PM on December 9, 2019 [5 favorites]
The ungraded worksheets are tough to argue logically, especially if the teacher isn’t even reviewing them. But I can offer up a defense for the class participation: if the (presumptive) smartest kids in the class participate, the other kids’ understanding of the material might improve, too.
If that argument is too altruistic, there’s also this one, which is fresh in my mind from the master’s cohort I graduated with a few months ago: even someone who feels very confident in their knowledge of the material should ask sincere clarifying questions once in a while, even if it feels fake. Sometimes you’re right, and you get to show that off, which is fun; other times, you find out you actually have a lot more to learn.
Besides: by the time she gets to undergrad, she’ll see that class-discussion monopolizers can only be vanquished by other people participating and asking thoughtful questions. Rolling your eyes because everyone else is so far behind you only compounds the frustration, because at least one of those people thinks participation points are a zero-sum game, and that person just discovered the word “whatnot” and is trying to work it into every sentence.
posted by armeowda at 6:31 PM on December 9, 2019 [5 favorites]
The ungraded worksheets are tough to argue logically, especially if the teacher isn’t even reviewing them.
It depends!
I would guess that about fifty percent of my class time, more if you exclude math class, in elementary and middle and part of high school was taken up by worksheets used as a substitute for teachers actually leading the class--the purest form of busywork. That's hard to defend on any grounds. (I used to whip through the worksheet that was supposed to take the whole period in 15 minutes, then spend the rest of the time reading science fiction. It was a shock when I transferred to a different school system and didn't need to take another book with me to class. So I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to Kid Marfa!) All you can really try to do is get the student worksheets that are harder so she can see the value of practice for herself, at least, even if the teacher isn't doing her job.
However, if it's more of a situation where the teacher is walking around the room, engaging with individuals working on individual problems, then you're getting close to a cutting-edge "flipped" classroom...where the teacher does "homework" with the class rather than leaving all the practice and application to time at home, away from the teacher.
I don't think we can tell from the description. To be honest I'd be a bit surprised if it were the former...the school I attended was in one of the worst systems in the country. But I guess there are bad teachers (along with good) everywhere.
posted by praemunire at 6:43 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
It depends!
I would guess that about fifty percent of my class time, more if you exclude math class, in elementary and middle and part of high school was taken up by worksheets used as a substitute for teachers actually leading the class--the purest form of busywork. That's hard to defend on any grounds. (I used to whip through the worksheet that was supposed to take the whole period in 15 minutes, then spend the rest of the time reading science fiction. It was a shock when I transferred to a different school system and didn't need to take another book with me to class. So I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to Kid Marfa!) All you can really try to do is get the student worksheets that are harder so she can see the value of practice for herself, at least, even if the teacher isn't doing her job.
However, if it's more of a situation where the teacher is walking around the room, engaging with individuals working on individual problems, then you're getting close to a cutting-edge "flipped" classroom...where the teacher does "homework" with the class rather than leaving all the practice and application to time at home, away from the teacher.
I don't think we can tell from the description. To be honest I'd be a bit surprised if it were the former...the school I attended was in one of the worst systems in the country. But I guess there are bad teachers (along with good) everywhere.
posted by praemunire at 6:43 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
How about asking her to grade her own work herself?
posted by Dansaman at 7:56 PM on December 9, 2019
posted by Dansaman at 7:56 PM on December 9, 2019
And...there are so many problems here. The whole premise of traditional education, where it's thought you can effectively educate a roomful of kids, whose only thing in common might be age, by using tests, grades, and homework, is deeply flawed (but bless the teachers for trying their best). I think what's maybe happened to your daughter is she's not doing work that is interesting to her, or in a way that is interesting to her, so she latched onto something that has extrinsic rewards as a way of compensating ("well, the work is boring, but getting good grades is fun!"). If you can find a school that practices "progressive education" (such as traditional Montessori), I think her education could potentially be more customized to her level, interests, and/or learning style, and with that she would hopefully become more engaged and self-motivated (while hopefully at the same time doing away with unnecessary and counter-productive performance metrics).
Here's the thing...the short term stuff means very little. It doesn't matter what grade she got on this, or how soon/early/quickly she learned that. What matters is the long-term, meaning her entire life. Primary and secondary school are just the beginning of her lifelong learning journey. Therefore, the most important thing right now is that she learn to love learning. Anything that works against that goal is potentially negative and destructive and you should run away from it. Read some Alfie Kohn articles if you want to learn more about this approach.
TL;DR: you are trying to fix something in a system under which it will be extremely difficult to fix it.
posted by Dansaman at 8:09 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
Here's the thing...the short term stuff means very little. It doesn't matter what grade she got on this, or how soon/early/quickly she learned that. What matters is the long-term, meaning her entire life. Primary and secondary school are just the beginning of her lifelong learning journey. Therefore, the most important thing right now is that she learn to love learning. Anything that works against that goal is potentially negative and destructive and you should run away from it. Read some Alfie Kohn articles if you want to learn more about this approach.
TL;DR: you are trying to fix something in a system under which it will be extremely difficult to fix it.
posted by Dansaman at 8:09 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
For the long term, I share this story: my oldest son came home with a huge note from his teacher in grade one that he had not done a single piece of work in three weeks. In the subsequent meeting this teacher actually complained that she “couldn’t take away his THUMBS.” (He was playing with them.)
He’s in an arts school doing fine, with good grades. He is not likely the next pillar of academia but I think he just might design really cool things. His spotty worksheet history is mostly the past. I would however try to connect your child with something, anything, somewhere, she can sink her teeth into and struggle with mastering...a sport, music, baking, whatever. She may have this already. Then she has the muscle to push through when she needs it.
For the short term in school...there are a few ways to go. For what you can control: You can offer additional extrinsic rewards, which may backfire later but might just get her through a rough year. (Reward charts, offers of ponies, etc.) You can coach your child (daily) and ask her for her thoughts and dreams and plans and let it be a shared learning experience even if it’s not a great one. (“Oh, you missed that...if you want to stay in class do your worksheets.”) You can explicitly make a work ethic part of your family thing (“Smiths always get things done.”) You can appeal to the teacher but I think if the teacher were going to engage your child more deeply, that would have happened...it’s still worth asking, you just don’t control the results.
Sending a girl off because she doesn’t look happy is not okay though. That’s not a consequence of her failing to work, that’s a sexist lack of empathy. That’s a teacher unwilling (or unable, in a crowded class with lack of supports) to look your child in the eyes and work hard to reach her...a teacher who is, this week anyway, trying to complete her own work sheet by handing them out, and giving up when they come back blank, getting frustrated, choosing to send your child away...you see the cycle here maybe. It’s worth staying connected with your daughter about it.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:22 AM on December 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
He’s in an arts school doing fine, with good grades. He is not likely the next pillar of academia but I think he just might design really cool things. His spotty worksheet history is mostly the past. I would however try to connect your child with something, anything, somewhere, she can sink her teeth into and struggle with mastering...a sport, music, baking, whatever. She may have this already. Then she has the muscle to push through when she needs it.
For the short term in school...there are a few ways to go. For what you can control: You can offer additional extrinsic rewards, which may backfire later but might just get her through a rough year. (Reward charts, offers of ponies, etc.) You can coach your child (daily) and ask her for her thoughts and dreams and plans and let it be a shared learning experience even if it’s not a great one. (“Oh, you missed that...if you want to stay in class do your worksheets.”) You can explicitly make a work ethic part of your family thing (“Smiths always get things done.”) You can appeal to the teacher but I think if the teacher were going to engage your child more deeply, that would have happened...it’s still worth asking, you just don’t control the results.
Sending a girl off because she doesn’t look happy is not okay though. That’s not a consequence of her failing to work, that’s a sexist lack of empathy. That’s a teacher unwilling (or unable, in a crowded class with lack of supports) to look your child in the eyes and work hard to reach her...a teacher who is, this week anyway, trying to complete her own work sheet by handing them out, and giving up when they come back blank, getting frustrated, choosing to send your child away...you see the cycle here maybe. It’s worth staying connected with your daughter about it.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:22 AM on December 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
I am a high school math teacher. I have thoughts, sorry about the length.
A couple of things to keep in mind, none of which the students will care about but still affect the situation:
- Teachers are told by the Powers That Be that every student must be working and learning every second of class, from the time they enter the classroom until they leave. The Powers That Be don't care why a student is not working, it's going to be a mark against the teacher regardless. Some environments are better about this than others.
- It is impossible to grade everything. One assignment for one class of 25 students with minimal feedback takes about 30 minutes to grade. More feedback or longer assignments take 2 hours or more. Per class. Most teachers have 5 or 6 classes/subjects, so scale up accordingly.
- The answer is not the point. Getting the skill into long term or muscle memory is the point. In order to move on to more complex or interesting topics, you must be able to do the previous skills without thinking much about them. This is not unlike a choir rehearsal working on proper breathing techniques or a football team running endurance drills during practice.
Ask the teacher to share the goal of the ungraded assignments. Reasons I personally give ungraded assignments are to improve skill speed and retention. If Kid Marfa knows WHY she's being asked to do a thing, she may be more willing to do it.
If the teacher can't or won't, it's probably busywork. I would ask the teacher if it can be replaced with something else. Now let me say here that I am absolutely against giving fast learners more of the same work just because they finish before time is up. That is the fastest way to get a student to not do any work ever. What I'm suggesting is a list of alternatives or challenges so that she keeps learning.
For example: If a computer is available she could work on a self paced program to allow her to work ahead (as a math teacher I've used Khan Academy and ALEKS). Or, she could research a topic more aligned to her interests and report on it in a way that is similar to the original assessment. Or she could read a more challenging book. My coworker calls these genius projects, but I've just called it independent study time.
Regarding class participation, the goal is to learn to communicate your thinking in a way others of different experiences will understand, and to practice active listening and how to interact with others. If she needs to do something with her hands while this happens get her a stress ball or something she can squeeze or fidget with while she listens. Eye contact is key, so that may be why doodling is getting on the teacher's nerves. Every teacher has a different threshold for this.
Sending a student to a random classroom for "looking sad" is unacceptable. Sad students should go to a counselor. Students who don't do their work should be kept in the classroom. Most likely other students are starting to emulate her refusal to work and it's causing a problem, but this is still an unacceptable response on the part of the teacher.
Good luck.
posted by rakaidan at 4:55 AM on December 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
A couple of things to keep in mind, none of which the students will care about but still affect the situation:
- Teachers are told by the Powers That Be that every student must be working and learning every second of class, from the time they enter the classroom until they leave. The Powers That Be don't care why a student is not working, it's going to be a mark against the teacher regardless. Some environments are better about this than others.
- It is impossible to grade everything. One assignment for one class of 25 students with minimal feedback takes about 30 minutes to grade. More feedback or longer assignments take 2 hours or more. Per class. Most teachers have 5 or 6 classes/subjects, so scale up accordingly.
- The answer is not the point. Getting the skill into long term or muscle memory is the point. In order to move on to more complex or interesting topics, you must be able to do the previous skills without thinking much about them. This is not unlike a choir rehearsal working on proper breathing techniques or a football team running endurance drills during practice.
Ask the teacher to share the goal of the ungraded assignments. Reasons I personally give ungraded assignments are to improve skill speed and retention. If Kid Marfa knows WHY she's being asked to do a thing, she may be more willing to do it.
If the teacher can't or won't, it's probably busywork. I would ask the teacher if it can be replaced with something else. Now let me say here that I am absolutely against giving fast learners more of the same work just because they finish before time is up. That is the fastest way to get a student to not do any work ever. What I'm suggesting is a list of alternatives or challenges so that she keeps learning.
For example: If a computer is available she could work on a self paced program to allow her to work ahead (as a math teacher I've used Khan Academy and ALEKS). Or, she could research a topic more aligned to her interests and report on it in a way that is similar to the original assessment. Or she could read a more challenging book. My coworker calls these genius projects, but I've just called it independent study time.
Regarding class participation, the goal is to learn to communicate your thinking in a way others of different experiences will understand, and to practice active listening and how to interact with others. If she needs to do something with her hands while this happens get her a stress ball or something she can squeeze or fidget with while she listens. Eye contact is key, so that may be why doodling is getting on the teacher's nerves. Every teacher has a different threshold for this.
Sending a student to a random classroom for "looking sad" is unacceptable. Sad students should go to a counselor. Students who don't do their work should be kept in the classroom. Most likely other students are starting to emulate her refusal to work and it's causing a problem, but this is still an unacceptable response on the part of the teacher.
Good luck.
posted by rakaidan at 4:55 AM on December 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
Are you able to take a day off work and go to school with your daughter? Basically shadow her day and her classes? Most schools encourage that kind of thing nowadays. Your daughter's behavior would almost certainly be different than usual, but you could still get a better sense of what's going on - what role the worksheets/ungraded work play in instruction, what kind of space and experience for her is the sped room, etc.
I think it could give you a much better sense of what the problem is, where it lies, and how you want to approach it.
Basically, I think you need more information.
posted by Salamandrous at 4:12 PM on December 13, 2019
I think it could give you a much better sense of what the problem is, where it lies, and how you want to approach it.
Basically, I think you need more information.
posted by Salamandrous at 4:12 PM on December 13, 2019
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by sagc at 12:00 PM on December 9, 2019 [19 favorites]