My boyfriend might have (undiagnosed)high-functioning Asperger's
November 30, 2019 3:00 PM Subscribe
As I was telling my therapist some things that have come up frequently with my boyfriend, she asked if he was on the spectrum. I hadn't considered this, but we might be breaking up because of his troubles with communication. I'm not here to diagnose him or make excuses and I don't expect you to do either. But maybe some of you can tell me if this rings true or not.
My boyfriend "Jack" is 37. (I'm female, also 37). He has an autistic brother who is verbal but unable to live independently. Jack (and maybe his brother) were severely physically abused--I don't know how much head trauma he had, but I think it was a lot.
Jack is your stereotypical gamer nerd, and I'd written off a lot of his awkwardness to that and also to the social anxiety he experiences as a product of abuse. Also because of the abuse, he hates to be touched by anyone but me.
I hadn't thought about him having Asperger's because he doesn't do any repetitive things, he doesn't have emotional outbursts, doesn't have fluctuations with his voice. He does really well at his job as a cook and does a great job with his supervisor and with the prep cooks under him. He's really good with language and has no trouble with metaphors or figures or speech.
I'd always noticed the social difficulties--like if I was having trouble carrying something, I'd always have to specifically ask for help. He never seemed able to intuit needs or behaviors, and he has a habit of following me places (like if i go to the kitchen for milk, he'll follow me). It doesn't seem like it occurs to him to say "thank you" very easily. He avoids crowds and noise because of PTSD/anxiety. He doesn't listen to music, just podcasts, and always says he "doesn't care about aesthetics." One of the biggest things I'm wondering about now is how attached he is to his routine. That's something else he attributes to anxiety, so I didn't think much of it, but he gets really attached to his daily routine, his cleaning routine, etc. Like he has to clean his rooms in a certain order, and progress stops if he can't do one.
But I'm more concerned about a lot of the emotional/communication things.
To be clear, I am NOT looking to explain everything away with a diagnosis, and I do NOT think you or I are in a position to give one.
However, I'm really curious about whether ASD could be a factor, and I'm hoping to hear from those with relevant experience, whether you say yes or no.
The emotion words are a challenge. I was stressed recently and said I needed words of support, and he just had no idea what to say. I had to list off a few examples before he had any idea what I meant.
The big rift between us right now is that he rarely will just ask me how I'm doing, what I've been up to, etc, no matter how many times I tell him that's important. Often he'll come in and go on about that night's D&D game for a long time before even really acknowledging me. This came to a head the other day when he didn't check in after my MRI (no head pun intended). I said I needed a lasting solution to this rather than remind him every few days to ask me basic questions. He pretty much said it was ridiculous that I'd expect to be asked that every time and was super defensive and claimed he was already doing everything he possibly could.
Jack has a lot of good qualities. He's funny and makes me feel safe and he can be really easygoing about a lot of things and we're both very smart, curious people. But I am prepared to let this relationship go, though, because the communication is so tedious. I realize it will be that way whether or not it's due to ASD. But it's a different framework if he has ASD or is just a jerk.
I'm sorry for the ramble; I'm feeling really lost here.
Throwaway email: mefithrowaway45@gmail.com
My boyfriend "Jack" is 37. (I'm female, also 37). He has an autistic brother who is verbal but unable to live independently. Jack (and maybe his brother) were severely physically abused--I don't know how much head trauma he had, but I think it was a lot.
Jack is your stereotypical gamer nerd, and I'd written off a lot of his awkwardness to that and also to the social anxiety he experiences as a product of abuse. Also because of the abuse, he hates to be touched by anyone but me.
I hadn't thought about him having Asperger's because he doesn't do any repetitive things, he doesn't have emotional outbursts, doesn't have fluctuations with his voice. He does really well at his job as a cook and does a great job with his supervisor and with the prep cooks under him. He's really good with language and has no trouble with metaphors or figures or speech.
I'd always noticed the social difficulties--like if I was having trouble carrying something, I'd always have to specifically ask for help. He never seemed able to intuit needs or behaviors, and he has a habit of following me places (like if i go to the kitchen for milk, he'll follow me). It doesn't seem like it occurs to him to say "thank you" very easily. He avoids crowds and noise because of PTSD/anxiety. He doesn't listen to music, just podcasts, and always says he "doesn't care about aesthetics." One of the biggest things I'm wondering about now is how attached he is to his routine. That's something else he attributes to anxiety, so I didn't think much of it, but he gets really attached to his daily routine, his cleaning routine, etc. Like he has to clean his rooms in a certain order, and progress stops if he can't do one.
But I'm more concerned about a lot of the emotional/communication things.
To be clear, I am NOT looking to explain everything away with a diagnosis, and I do NOT think you or I are in a position to give one.
However, I'm really curious about whether ASD could be a factor, and I'm hoping to hear from those with relevant experience, whether you say yes or no.
The emotion words are a challenge. I was stressed recently and said I needed words of support, and he just had no idea what to say. I had to list off a few examples before he had any idea what I meant.
The big rift between us right now is that he rarely will just ask me how I'm doing, what I've been up to, etc, no matter how many times I tell him that's important. Often he'll come in and go on about that night's D&D game for a long time before even really acknowledging me. This came to a head the other day when he didn't check in after my MRI (no head pun intended). I said I needed a lasting solution to this rather than remind him every few days to ask me basic questions. He pretty much said it was ridiculous that I'd expect to be asked that every time and was super defensive and claimed he was already doing everything he possibly could.
Jack has a lot of good qualities. He's funny and makes me feel safe and he can be really easygoing about a lot of things and we're both very smart, curious people. But I am prepared to let this relationship go, though, because the communication is so tedious. I realize it will be that way whether or not it's due to ASD. But it's a different framework if he has ASD or is just a jerk.
I'm sorry for the ramble; I'm feeling really lost here.
Throwaway email: mefithrowaway45@gmail.com
claimed he was already doing everything he possibly could.
Is he getting any treatment for his anxiety? Because that's a thing whether or not he has ASD. I have anxiety. It can make me a bad partner sometimes. However I'm also getting treatment for it, working on it, and am very communicative "Hey I'm having a hard time being responsive right now because I'm a little stuck in an anxiety spiral" or "Right now it's important for us to stick to the routine because my anxiety is flaring up" What I don't do is call my partner ridiculous if he's asking me why I'm not being interactive or why I'm being a kind of to-the-minute stickler about some plan we make.
It may both be possible that your guy is doing all he can and also that that's not enough. I know that it might feel better to have what you feel is a "reason" but, just using myself as an example, I could be an anxious person who is also a jerk, or a person with untreated anxiety, or someone with treated anxiety who was just a bad fit for other people. It's okay to want what you want. This guy sounds like a lot of work, maybe too much work, for what you are looking for.
I know at least a few people with ASD, many of whom are fine with social interactions and admit that some of their abilities are learned and not "intuitive" to them. A lot of social stuff (to me) is like that, though I've definitely had people wonder if I have ASD also. A partnership is working on mismatches together. Jack doesn't sound like he's up for doing that, regardless of reason.
posted by jessamyn at 3:22 PM on November 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
Is he getting any treatment for his anxiety? Because that's a thing whether or not he has ASD. I have anxiety. It can make me a bad partner sometimes. However I'm also getting treatment for it, working on it, and am very communicative "Hey I'm having a hard time being responsive right now because I'm a little stuck in an anxiety spiral" or "Right now it's important for us to stick to the routine because my anxiety is flaring up" What I don't do is call my partner ridiculous if he's asking me why I'm not being interactive or why I'm being a kind of to-the-minute stickler about some plan we make.
It may both be possible that your guy is doing all he can and also that that's not enough. I know that it might feel better to have what you feel is a "reason" but, just using myself as an example, I could be an anxious person who is also a jerk, or a person with untreated anxiety, or someone with treated anxiety who was just a bad fit for other people. It's okay to want what you want. This guy sounds like a lot of work, maybe too much work, for what you are looking for.
I know at least a few people with ASD, many of whom are fine with social interactions and admit that some of their abilities are learned and not "intuitive" to them. A lot of social stuff (to me) is like that, though I've definitely had people wonder if I have ASD also. A partnership is working on mismatches together. Jack doesn't sound like he's up for doing that, regardless of reason.
posted by jessamyn at 3:22 PM on November 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
He definitely sounds like he could be autistic / have what used to be called Aspergers. (Some people still use that label, some now use "autism" to refer to the whole spectrum. Either's fine with me, but you might find more up-to-date resources by using both terms when you search.)
He sounds like he could also be acting like a jerk, in addition to being autistic, is the thing. Contrary to stereotype, autistic people have feelings, understand that other people have feelings, and care deeply about other people's feelings. But we sometimes have different needs and communication styles around that stuff, and figuring out how to handle those differences is really important if we're dating someone isn't autistic. It's hard to tell from your question if he's trying to figure that stuff out but struggling, or if he isn't bothering to try.
That said, there's a lot of social pressure for autistic people not to admit we're autistic, or even necessarily recognize it for ourselves, especially when we're able to hide our symptoms and live independently. And in my experience, that pressure is stronger for people with more obviously autistic relatives. For someone with a family member who can't talk, or can't work, or can't live alone, there's a lot of familial pressure to be The Normal One by comparison, and to downplay their own symptoms and their own experiences. He may have a lot of shame about struggling with the things he struggles with, and he may be hiding that shame by acting like he doesn't care.
I agree you shouldn't stay in a relationship where you don't get your needs met. And if he does have autism, figuring out how to get your needs met will involve him doing a lot of learning about himself, and both of you figuring out how to handle the differences between you. But, as everyone else is saying, if nothing changes, you can't keep letting autism be an excuse forever.
posted by nebulawindphone at 3:22 PM on November 30, 2019 [11 favorites]
He sounds like he could also be acting like a jerk, in addition to being autistic, is the thing. Contrary to stereotype, autistic people have feelings, understand that other people have feelings, and care deeply about other people's feelings. But we sometimes have different needs and communication styles around that stuff, and figuring out how to handle those differences is really important if we're dating someone isn't autistic. It's hard to tell from your question if he's trying to figure that stuff out but struggling, or if he isn't bothering to try.
That said, there's a lot of social pressure for autistic people not to admit we're autistic, or even necessarily recognize it for ourselves, especially when we're able to hide our symptoms and live independently. And in my experience, that pressure is stronger for people with more obviously autistic relatives. For someone with a family member who can't talk, or can't work, or can't live alone, there's a lot of familial pressure to be The Normal One by comparison, and to downplay their own symptoms and their own experiences. He may have a lot of shame about struggling with the things he struggles with, and he may be hiding that shame by acting like he doesn't care.
I agree you shouldn't stay in a relationship where you don't get your needs met. And if he does have autism, figuring out how to get your needs met will involve him doing a lot of learning about himself, and both of you figuring out how to handle the differences between you. But, as everyone else is saying, if nothing changes, you can't keep letting autism be an excuse forever.
posted by nebulawindphone at 3:22 PM on November 30, 2019 [11 favorites]
he rarely will just ask me how I'm doing, what I've been up to, etc, no matter how many times I tell him that's important. ... he didn't check in after my MRI ...
At the risk of sounding glib: how does it help you to know whether this is Asperger's or not? Especially since:
He pretty much said it was ridiculous that I'd expect
...? Say it's Asperger's. Now what? He's still treating you in ways that fall far short of your needs, and he still thinks you're ridiculous for having those needs - which means he won't work on himself, he expects you to adjust and let your needs go unattended.
Non-glib disclosure: I went down this exact path with my ex-husband. He, too, is a high functioning person who is smart, funny, well-read, with varied interests and hobbies, has a good job, and while he is a bit introverted and socially awkward and has obsessive tendencies, he has functional relationships with friends and family, and moreover he is a great dad. But throughout our marriage he treated me with callous indifference which often veered into the territory of cruel and abusive levels of neglect. For example, when I was about to give birth and my water broke, he took that opportunity to berate me for the mess I'd made, and I had to clean it up. He, too, never said thank you, never asked after my well-being nor cared about it, was habitually rude and unkind to me - e.g. he called me fat on our wedding night - and he always laughed at me when I asked to be treated like a human being worthy of his concern or kindness. He was, above all, convinced that there was everything wrong with me and absolutely nothing he needed to change about the way he was behaving.
Was it Asperger's? I surely thought so in the tumultuous months leading up to our divorce, when I was clutching at straws trying to make the marriage work. He, too, was elated at my theory because that meant nothing was his fault after all, and if he had Asperger's, it was my responsibility to make even more accommodations for him than I already was while he continued to be callous and unkind. I said nope, no can do, and left him soon after. Eventually our couple's therapist told me he highly doubted it was Asperger's, but what does it matter even if it had been? I could not continue to sacrifice my needs on the altar of his maybe-maybenot condition.
Neither should you.
posted by MiraK at 3:23 PM on November 30, 2019 [80 favorites]
At the risk of sounding glib: how does it help you to know whether this is Asperger's or not? Especially since:
He pretty much said it was ridiculous that I'd expect
...? Say it's Asperger's. Now what? He's still treating you in ways that fall far short of your needs, and he still thinks you're ridiculous for having those needs - which means he won't work on himself, he expects you to adjust and let your needs go unattended.
Non-glib disclosure: I went down this exact path with my ex-husband. He, too, is a high functioning person who is smart, funny, well-read, with varied interests and hobbies, has a good job, and while he is a bit introverted and socially awkward and has obsessive tendencies, he has functional relationships with friends and family, and moreover he is a great dad. But throughout our marriage he treated me with callous indifference which often veered into the territory of cruel and abusive levels of neglect. For example, when I was about to give birth and my water broke, he took that opportunity to berate me for the mess I'd made, and I had to clean it up. He, too, never said thank you, never asked after my well-being nor cared about it, was habitually rude and unkind to me - e.g. he called me fat on our wedding night - and he always laughed at me when I asked to be treated like a human being worthy of his concern or kindness. He was, above all, convinced that there was everything wrong with me and absolutely nothing he needed to change about the way he was behaving.
Was it Asperger's? I surely thought so in the tumultuous months leading up to our divorce, when I was clutching at straws trying to make the marriage work. He, too, was elated at my theory because that meant nothing was his fault after all, and if he had Asperger's, it was my responsibility to make even more accommodations for him than I already was while he continued to be callous and unkind. I said nope, no can do, and left him soon after. Eventually our couple's therapist told me he highly doubted it was Asperger's, but what does it matter even if it had been? I could not continue to sacrifice my needs on the altar of his maybe-maybenot condition.
Neither should you.
posted by MiraK at 3:23 PM on November 30, 2019 [80 favorites]
Yes, the key here is whether he listens to your expression of your needs and acknowledges that he should be working to figure out how to meet them. If he's not even at that stage, then it doesn't matter (in a practical sense) whether he's on the spectrum--he's not being a good partner and the relationship isn't going to work. There were probably many men in the past century who would be diagnosed today who made the effort to make relationships work, even if it was more of a struggle for them, and many others who didn't, and because they were men, got away with this indifference to their partners' needs. Present-day women don't have to put up with this.
(MiraK, I'm so sorry you had to go through that.)
posted by praemunire at 4:01 PM on November 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
(MiraK, I'm so sorry you had to go through that.)
posted by praemunire at 4:01 PM on November 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
If you think ASD could be a factor and you're willing to cut him some slack if it is, if it were me (and I'm not necessarily saying this is the right thing to do but it's definitely what I'd do) is I would ask him about how he feels about autism in general in light of his brother's condition and see if he brings up ever thinking that he might be affected by it. I just mean I think, as long as you trust him and don't think he's a bad person, the best person to give you this information is himself and this is the nicest way I can think of to ask.
posted by bleep at 4:09 PM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 4:09 PM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
However on the other hand in my experience when you have to diagnose your partner for them to make them see a doctor to solve their problems you're putting yourself in a substitute parent role and you can't have a healthy relationship from that position. He has to be identifying issues and finding his own solutions for the medical aspect to be any good.
posted by bleep at 4:14 PM on November 30, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by bleep at 4:14 PM on November 30, 2019 [13 favorites]
There's a common pattern I see happen around diagnoses. People often get focused on trying to figure out what it is that's wrong. Is it this diagnosis, or that one? People often get fixated on it with the thought that, "if I can just know what it is then I can figure out how to deal with it." And that is sometimes true -- in medical contexts especially, when official diagnosis paperwork is often important for opening up treatments, accommodations, financial support, and so on.
But then that comfort drains away when people realize that a diagnosis doesn't matter for daily life. Knowing why something is the way it is doesn't actually give you the strategies to cope with or change it. Figuring out whether he has ASD, or anxiety, or PTSD, or is just self-absorbed won't give you the exact tools he needs. It can give you guys some strategies that generally work for many people, but it won't tell you what works for the two of you specifically. Figuring that out is just a bunch of trial and error.
If he needs a diagnosis in order to frame his own thinking about his struggles, that's great. Support him in that. But if he's not searching for a diagnosis or explanation himself, you won't gain anything by forcing it upon him. Knowing "this is an ASD symptom" or "this is my anxiety acting up" won't magically make him want to change that part of himself. He might be happy with himself already, and the communication problems will still exist. (Except now he has a stronger argument for "this is just the way I am!")
There are a few reasons that it feels like a diagnosis could help you, though. One is that it might push you to look for new strategies and tools to navigate the communication problem -- like browsing literature, looking at spousal support forums, and so on. But you can do that without knowing whether he's actually on the spectrum. Strategies that work for neurodiverse people usually also work extremely well for neurotypical people. You don't need a diagnosis for the two of you two start trying new communication strategies. (One thing that like massively helped in my relationship was to set a recurring calendar reminder to check in with each other. Like, actually scheduling it and having the phone set off an alarm every Tuesday at 7 was awesome at building "hello, yes, how are you feeling today?" into our routine for a year or so until it was more naturally built into our couple dynamic.)
Another thing that his diagnosis could help you is in deciding what to fight about and what to let go. If you're looking for a reason to give a good-natured sigh and shrug "that's just the [diagnosis]," that's understandable. (Emphasis on good-natured.) But, again, you don't actually need to have an official diagnosis in order to start doing that. You can just sigh, shrug, and go "that's just the boyfriend" and move on. Statements like "that's just the [diagnosis]" create temporary tolerance of a condition, while "that's just the boyfriend" frames him more as an individual and creates a better foundation for deeper connection and empathy.
Any explanation of why he is the way he is doesn't matter if he's not willing to work with you on the communication problems. Which seems like he's stunningly uninterested in doing, from your description so far. Relationships can absolutely thrive between deeply introspective people and those who are not, but it does take some serious rejiggering of habits and communication styles. If he wants to do that but feels outclassed in the arguments and problem-solving conversations, it's time to bring in a third party. If he doesn't want to do that, then you're right to walk away now.
posted by lilac girl at 4:17 PM on November 30, 2019 [8 favorites]
But then that comfort drains away when people realize that a diagnosis doesn't matter for daily life. Knowing why something is the way it is doesn't actually give you the strategies to cope with or change it. Figuring out whether he has ASD, or anxiety, or PTSD, or is just self-absorbed won't give you the exact tools he needs. It can give you guys some strategies that generally work for many people, but it won't tell you what works for the two of you specifically. Figuring that out is just a bunch of trial and error.
If he needs a diagnosis in order to frame his own thinking about his struggles, that's great. Support him in that. But if he's not searching for a diagnosis or explanation himself, you won't gain anything by forcing it upon him. Knowing "this is an ASD symptom" or "this is my anxiety acting up" won't magically make him want to change that part of himself. He might be happy with himself already, and the communication problems will still exist. (Except now he has a stronger argument for "this is just the way I am!")
There are a few reasons that it feels like a diagnosis could help you, though. One is that it might push you to look for new strategies and tools to navigate the communication problem -- like browsing literature, looking at spousal support forums, and so on. But you can do that without knowing whether he's actually on the spectrum. Strategies that work for neurodiverse people usually also work extremely well for neurotypical people. You don't need a diagnosis for the two of you two start trying new communication strategies. (One thing that like massively helped in my relationship was to set a recurring calendar reminder to check in with each other. Like, actually scheduling it and having the phone set off an alarm every Tuesday at 7 was awesome at building "hello, yes, how are you feeling today?" into our routine for a year or so until it was more naturally built into our couple dynamic.)
Another thing that his diagnosis could help you is in deciding what to fight about and what to let go. If you're looking for a reason to give a good-natured sigh and shrug "that's just the [diagnosis]," that's understandable. (Emphasis on good-natured.) But, again, you don't actually need to have an official diagnosis in order to start doing that. You can just sigh, shrug, and go "that's just the boyfriend" and move on. Statements like "that's just the [diagnosis]" create temporary tolerance of a condition, while "that's just the boyfriend" frames him more as an individual and creates a better foundation for deeper connection and empathy.
Any explanation of why he is the way he is doesn't matter if he's not willing to work with you on the communication problems. Which seems like he's stunningly uninterested in doing, from your description so far. Relationships can absolutely thrive between deeply introspective people and those who are not, but it does take some serious rejiggering of habits and communication styles. If he wants to do that but feels outclassed in the arguments and problem-solving conversations, it's time to bring in a third party. If he doesn't want to do that, then you're right to walk away now.
posted by lilac girl at 4:17 PM on November 30, 2019 [8 favorites]
Formally diagnosing someone from afar is difficult, diagnosing someone who has both autism in their family AND a history of abuse is also mostly pointless: both ASD and PTSD are known to cause issues with using emotional language, empathy, and awareness of other's desires. There's really two questions:
Is he suffering from issues completely outside his control that make him more likely to have trouble communicating than the average person? Yes, he is. Does this fact make it easier for you two to get along then if he was just a jerk for no specific reason? Maybe, if you work out a strategy that takes his background into account as other replies have mentioned.
One thing that might help you is gaining a better understanding of how PTSD and ASD can affect people at an emotional level. I'd actually recommend a book I just finished reading: "The Body Keeps The Score" by Bessel Van Der Kolk. It's a difficult read if you do not like reading accounts of horrible things, but it gave me a much better perspective about trauma in general. It has helped me come to term with some of my own PTSD-like symptoms which I feel are related to my ASD diagnosis more than any actual specific trauma.
posted by JZig at 4:34 PM on November 30, 2019 [5 favorites]
Is he suffering from issues completely outside his control that make him more likely to have trouble communicating than the average person? Yes, he is. Does this fact make it easier for you two to get along then if he was just a jerk for no specific reason? Maybe, if you work out a strategy that takes his background into account as other replies have mentioned.
One thing that might help you is gaining a better understanding of how PTSD and ASD can affect people at an emotional level. I'd actually recommend a book I just finished reading: "The Body Keeps The Score" by Bessel Van Der Kolk. It's a difficult read if you do not like reading accounts of horrible things, but it gave me a much better perspective about trauma in general. It has helped me come to term with some of my own PTSD-like symptoms which I feel are related to my ASD diagnosis more than any actual specific trauma.
posted by JZig at 4:34 PM on November 30, 2019 [5 favorites]
This sounds just like my dad, right down to the childhood abuse, the deep anxiety, the following you from room to room, the rigidity around routines, and the callous cluelessness which mars nearly every social interaction we've ever had.
In my case, it does matter that he has autism, because it means I now understand he loves me, despite his lack of interest in me as a person and his failure to meet my childhood emotional needs. Which, when you are grasping at straws for reasons to care about someone you can't cut out, is something.
He has no interest in changing and I accept that now. But a boyfriend isn't a father; my dad is my dad forever, but you can meet someone who's willing to work on himself, who can meet you halfway. No matter the reason, you deserve to have your relationship needs met.
By the way, I am on the spectrum myself. Unlike my dad I've taken great care to work on emoting, self-knowledge and social cues. Effort matters. My dad had a lot of struggles I didn't have. One was abuse. Another is toxic masculinity. But he's a jerk and he has ASD. One doesn't cause the other. Ultimately your boyfriend is responsible for making the most of what he's got. Is he doing the work?
posted by aw jeez at 5:22 PM on November 30, 2019 [22 favorites]
In my case, it does matter that he has autism, because it means I now understand he loves me, despite his lack of interest in me as a person and his failure to meet my childhood emotional needs. Which, when you are grasping at straws for reasons to care about someone you can't cut out, is something.
He has no interest in changing and I accept that now. But a boyfriend isn't a father; my dad is my dad forever, but you can meet someone who's willing to work on himself, who can meet you halfway. No matter the reason, you deserve to have your relationship needs met.
By the way, I am on the spectrum myself. Unlike my dad I've taken great care to work on emoting, self-knowledge and social cues. Effort matters. My dad had a lot of struggles I didn't have. One was abuse. Another is toxic masculinity. But he's a jerk and he has ASD. One doesn't cause the other. Ultimately your boyfriend is responsible for making the most of what he's got. Is he doing the work?
posted by aw jeez at 5:22 PM on November 30, 2019 [22 favorites]
My ex-girlfriend has Aspergers and attributed a lot of her jerkward abusive behavior to that. "This is just who I am, I can't change it!" I stuck around that relationship way too long partly because I didn't want to use her neurodiversity against her, even though it was costing me a lot mental-health-wise.
Her diagnosis was in no way an excuse for her behaviour.
I'm not saying your boyfriend is abusive. What I'm saying is that, diagnosis or not, if the relationship is not working for you it's not working for you. You're not obliged to stay for any reason.
posted by divabat at 5:22 PM on November 30, 2019 [5 favorites]
Her diagnosis was in no way an excuse for her behaviour.
I'm not saying your boyfriend is abusive. What I'm saying is that, diagnosis or not, if the relationship is not working for you it's not working for you. You're not obliged to stay for any reason.
posted by divabat at 5:22 PM on November 30, 2019 [5 favorites]
If you haven't tried it yet, being extremely explicit about your needs can help people in your boyfriend's situation be the partner you'd like them to be, if they are on board with it. If you have and he still isn't giving you what you need or you need him to be able to do those things in the moment without prompting, a hopefully amicable split is probably best for both of you. And yeah, if he's blaming it all on you (as opposed to insisting that you both have things to work on, which can sometimes feel like blame in the moment), he's just being an asshole. He can understand intellectually even as he has trouble understanding viscerally. He can believe the words coming out of your mouth.
It's not uncommon for neurotypical people to have difficulty communicating and receiving love in a way that is compatible with their partner, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that NNT people also find themselves in that boat on some occasions.
posted by wierdo at 6:00 PM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's not uncommon for neurotypical people to have difficulty communicating and receiving love in a way that is compatible with their partner, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that NNT people also find themselves in that boat on some occasions.
posted by wierdo at 6:00 PM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
People have done an apt job explaining why it may not matter. My anecdata regardless: The non-jerk autistic people I know would be grateful for you saying explicitly "it is important for you to ask me how I'm doing any time we haven't talked for 24 hours" (or whatever your preferred frequency) and would make an effort to do so. People who have a hard time intuiting social expectations generally appreciate rules and guidelines—it reduces anxiety and stress all around. The fact that you said that and it hasn't made a difference is, to me, a tick in the "either not ASD or ASD plus unrelatedly not prioritizing your happiness" column.
posted by babelfish at 6:01 PM on November 30, 2019 [25 favorites]
posted by babelfish at 6:01 PM on November 30, 2019 [25 favorites]
Here's a question: if you get a collective confirmation from online strangers that he does possibly have Asperger's or another form or neurodivergence, what exactly are you expecting to happen next? What do you think should happen now that your suspicion has been confirmed?
At its core, your question isn't really about autism, nor should it be (Asperger's/autism spectrum are way, way too often tossed around as some kind of ableist boogeyman, and it's both unkind and unfair to those who have been diagnosed with, identify with or have loved ones with said conditions). Regardless of whether or not your boyfriend is neurodivergent, your relationship is suffering from a breakdown in/lack of communication.
Honestly, I ask again, if you leave this AskMe convinced that he has Asperger's, what would you do with that information?
Would you tell him that you asked the internet and the internet thinks he might have Asperger's so he should probably go in for a consultation? (That is a serious question and not intended as snark, despite sounding that way in print.) Would you start unilaterally reading up more on Asperger's and being in a relationship with someone who has Asperger's - despite him not having any official diagnosis - and use that information to frame your relationship going forward?
If you knew or believed he has Asperger's, would you feel more compassion and patience for him? Or would you pity him and look down your nose at him? Would you just write him off as hopeless and dump him?
These are questions you should consider asking yourself, because it's not clear - from this question anyway - what your goals are by asking this question.
If you suspect that your boyfriend has Asperger's, before you go about diagnosing him privately in your mind, you should talk to him about what's really making you unhappy: the fact that you feel like you get no emotional support, the fact that you feel like he doesn't communicate with you in a way that you find clear or meaningful or engaged, the fact that you feel like there are things he should notice and act on without you always having to ask.
All of those things making you unhappy, far more often than not, have everything to do with a relationship in need of work (or dissolution).
A person can be a jerk and neurotypical.
A person can be a jerk and neurodivergent.
A person can be not a jerk and neurotypical.
A person can be not a jerk and neurodivergent.
Having Asperger's doesn't excuse his behavior any more than knowing if he has it will somehow heal your relationship. Yes, if he has it, it may explain some things - but what does that do for the communication in your relationship?
I know my words sound a bit harsh. What you're going through isn't easy. I had an ex who didn't have Asperger's but totally behaved the same way your boyfriend does when it comes to having tough talks about emotions or never asking me about my day or how I was doing. And it fucking sucked, let me tell you. We weren't right for each other. People can be poor communicators and have less than great emotional intelligence, but conflating those things with Asperger's and autism spectrum is still irresponsible, dangerous, ableist and unkind. I am just urging you to move away from that line of thought and move closer to thinking about what you really need and if this person and relationship are giving you what you need.
posted by nightrecordings at 6:10 PM on November 30, 2019 [9 favorites]
At its core, your question isn't really about autism, nor should it be (Asperger's/autism spectrum are way, way too often tossed around as some kind of ableist boogeyman, and it's both unkind and unfair to those who have been diagnosed with, identify with or have loved ones with said conditions). Regardless of whether or not your boyfriend is neurodivergent, your relationship is suffering from a breakdown in/lack of communication.
Honestly, I ask again, if you leave this AskMe convinced that he has Asperger's, what would you do with that information?
Would you tell him that you asked the internet and the internet thinks he might have Asperger's so he should probably go in for a consultation? (That is a serious question and not intended as snark, despite sounding that way in print.) Would you start unilaterally reading up more on Asperger's and being in a relationship with someone who has Asperger's - despite him not having any official diagnosis - and use that information to frame your relationship going forward?
If you knew or believed he has Asperger's, would you feel more compassion and patience for him? Or would you pity him and look down your nose at him? Would you just write him off as hopeless and dump him?
These are questions you should consider asking yourself, because it's not clear - from this question anyway - what your goals are by asking this question.
If you suspect that your boyfriend has Asperger's, before you go about diagnosing him privately in your mind, you should talk to him about what's really making you unhappy: the fact that you feel like you get no emotional support, the fact that you feel like he doesn't communicate with you in a way that you find clear or meaningful or engaged, the fact that you feel like there are things he should notice and act on without you always having to ask.
All of those things making you unhappy, far more often than not, have everything to do with a relationship in need of work (or dissolution).
A person can be a jerk and neurotypical.
A person can be a jerk and neurodivergent.
A person can be not a jerk and neurotypical.
A person can be not a jerk and neurodivergent.
Having Asperger's doesn't excuse his behavior any more than knowing if he has it will somehow heal your relationship. Yes, if he has it, it may explain some things - but what does that do for the communication in your relationship?
I know my words sound a bit harsh. What you're going through isn't easy. I had an ex who didn't have Asperger's but totally behaved the same way your boyfriend does when it comes to having tough talks about emotions or never asking me about my day or how I was doing. And it fucking sucked, let me tell you. We weren't right for each other. People can be poor communicators and have less than great emotional intelligence, but conflating those things with Asperger's and autism spectrum is still irresponsible, dangerous, ableist and unkind. I am just urging you to move away from that line of thought and move closer to thinking about what you really need and if this person and relationship are giving you what you need.
posted by nightrecordings at 6:10 PM on November 30, 2019 [9 favorites]
It doesn't really matter WHY he is how he is. It just matters how you feel. If you need something, and your partner isn't filling that need themselves or facilitating your ability to get that need filled, then you are allowed to uncouple yourself from that person. Period. You're not a bad person for deciding to unlink your life from someone who isn't filling your needs.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:16 PM on November 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:16 PM on November 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
Hypothetically, if Jack were indeed trying to figure out these issues from his own side, and were indeed autistic, diagnosis (by self or professional) could be a useful step. Despite all the limitations of our existing concept of "autism," it can be an astonishingly powerful tool for understanding oneself, and understanding how and why one's interactions with others can go unexpectedly wrong. But if Jack isn't already seeking that understanding on his own, I'm not sure a diagnosis (formal or informal) could be of much help to anyone.
On another front, I'd like to push back on some of the claims made above, that the question of whether one is "a jerk" is a wholly separate question from whether one is autistic. That argument starts as a much-needed corrective against ableism, but it can easily end up merely swapping out one kind of ableism for another.
This is of course a fraught area, but as I see it, the autistic community's rejection of person-first language is grounded precisely in the realization that our selves are not merely off-the-shelf products from Neurotypicality R Us with some autism added on as a customization. Rather, our autistic selves are are in important ways fundamentally different from neurotypical selves. This is a relatively easy realization to have but a remarkably hard one to completely follow through on, in part because assumptions about shared inner experiences are built into language itself. But failing to account for these differences can easily lead to deeply ableist ways of approaching these kinds of discussions.
In particular, circling back to the specific context of this thread, separating "what is jerk" from "what is self," without understanding the allistic biases that typically underlie both of these questions, can easily lead to adopting a view in which A's lack of respect for B's need for a consistent routine is perfectly right and proper, while B's lack of respect for A's need for phatic communion is jerk-like.
Put differently, it takes a lot of work to learn to understand and respect needs that one doesn't share. (This is not intended to excuse Jack or anyone else from failing to put in that work, of course; but it is treacherously easy to underestimate the amount of work involved.)
Of course, to reiterate what others have said, none of this is any reason to stay in a relationship that isn't working for you right now. If the current state of affairs isn't working for you (and it sounds like it isn't), you have every right and reason to walk away.
posted by Not A Thing at 9:37 PM on November 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
On another front, I'd like to push back on some of the claims made above, that the question of whether one is "a jerk" is a wholly separate question from whether one is autistic. That argument starts as a much-needed corrective against ableism, but it can easily end up merely swapping out one kind of ableism for another.
This is of course a fraught area, but as I see it, the autistic community's rejection of person-first language is grounded precisely in the realization that our selves are not merely off-the-shelf products from Neurotypicality R Us with some autism added on as a customization. Rather, our autistic selves are are in important ways fundamentally different from neurotypical selves. This is a relatively easy realization to have but a remarkably hard one to completely follow through on, in part because assumptions about shared inner experiences are built into language itself. But failing to account for these differences can easily lead to deeply ableist ways of approaching these kinds of discussions.
In particular, circling back to the specific context of this thread, separating "what is jerk" from "what is self," without understanding the allistic biases that typically underlie both of these questions, can easily lead to adopting a view in which A's lack of respect for B's need for a consistent routine is perfectly right and proper, while B's lack of respect for A's need for phatic communion is jerk-like.
Put differently, it takes a lot of work to learn to understand and respect needs that one doesn't share. (This is not intended to excuse Jack or anyone else from failing to put in that work, of course; but it is treacherously easy to underestimate the amount of work involved.)
Of course, to reiterate what others have said, none of this is any reason to stay in a relationship that isn't working for you right now. If the current state of affairs isn't working for you (and it sounds like it isn't), you have every right and reason to walk away.
posted by Not A Thing at 9:37 PM on November 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
Sure, it could be a factor. So could the head trauma and the other trauma. A qualified mental health team might be able to give it a guess, but such diagnoses are exactly that: highly educated guesses. Any treatment or training leading to improvement would require him to desire to change or learn something, and his lack of desire to do that is the same whatever his diagnosis, if any.
You put a lot of stress on him not having certain instincts. there is a myth, propagated by some self-styled atypical people, that so-called typical people just know how to behave well in social situations, neither having to explicitly learn how in the first place nor having to continually work at it once they do know how. The idea is that if people not on the autism spectrum are good at some common interpersonal behavior, it must be easy for them, even instinctive; it cannot feel complex or be an accomplishment. where this myth comes from is beside the point; my point is only that it is a myth, as is clear if you are someone or know someone who was never taught social behavior by decent adults in their formative years. A parent or guardian who is inflicting severe physical abuse is not likely to be instructing their child in the finer points of e.g. giving vocal emotional support to a partner, much less modelling it.
So it is entirely possible that he is not autistic but simply was not taught certain ways of relating to others at the time when it would have been easiest for him to learn them. If you want a way for it not to be his fault, this works just as well as the other.
The fact remains that he knows (because you told him) that he should learn these things and that he is behaving in an uncaring and selfish way towards you. No explanation for the formation of his personality and behavior patterns will explain away his choice to maintain them.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:38 PM on November 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
You put a lot of stress on him not having certain instincts. there is a myth, propagated by some self-styled atypical people, that so-called typical people just know how to behave well in social situations, neither having to explicitly learn how in the first place nor having to continually work at it once they do know how. The idea is that if people not on the autism spectrum are good at some common interpersonal behavior, it must be easy for them, even instinctive; it cannot feel complex or be an accomplishment. where this myth comes from is beside the point; my point is only that it is a myth, as is clear if you are someone or know someone who was never taught social behavior by decent adults in their formative years. A parent or guardian who is inflicting severe physical abuse is not likely to be instructing their child in the finer points of e.g. giving vocal emotional support to a partner, much less modelling it.
So it is entirely possible that he is not autistic but simply was not taught certain ways of relating to others at the time when it would have been easiest for him to learn them. If you want a way for it not to be his fault, this works just as well as the other.
The fact remains that he knows (because you told him) that he should learn these things and that he is behaving in an uncaring and selfish way towards you. No explanation for the formation of his personality and behavior patterns will explain away his choice to maintain them.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:38 PM on November 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
Gently, I would ask you to notice the internal contradiction in your question:
I'm not here to diagnose him or make excuses and I don't expect you to do either.
But maybe some of you can tell me if this rings true or not.
To be clear, I am NOT looking to explain everything away with a diagnosis, and I do NOT think you or I are in a position to give one.
However, I'm really curious about whether ASD could be a factor, and I'm hoping to hear from those with relevant experience, whether you say yes or no.
A few years ago I was in your position, trying to understand if someone I was close to was doing what they were doing because of reasons or not. It took my therapist ages to get through to me that what I was doing was "diagnosing."
I denied it! I understand I'm not a doctor. I understand I'm not qualified to diagnose anything. I understand that dragging the person to a doctor to get an official diagnosis wouldn't change anything.
But when I was hung up on "does their behavior objectively fit this pattern that could give me a recommended framework for approach?" that was me "diagnosing" instead of me dealing with the person in all their uniqueness as they are and deciding what my own subjective tolerance was for their behaviors that were hard to tolerate.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 5:34 AM on December 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
I'm not here to diagnose him or make excuses and I don't expect you to do either.
But maybe some of you can tell me if this rings true or not.
To be clear, I am NOT looking to explain everything away with a diagnosis, and I do NOT think you or I are in a position to give one.
However, I'm really curious about whether ASD could be a factor, and I'm hoping to hear from those with relevant experience, whether you say yes or no.
A few years ago I was in your position, trying to understand if someone I was close to was doing what they were doing because of reasons or not. It took my therapist ages to get through to me that what I was doing was "diagnosing."
I denied it! I understand I'm not a doctor. I understand I'm not qualified to diagnose anything. I understand that dragging the person to a doctor to get an official diagnosis wouldn't change anything.
But when I was hung up on "does their behavior objectively fit this pattern that could give me a recommended framework for approach?" that was me "diagnosing" instead of me dealing with the person in all their uniqueness as they are and deciding what my own subjective tolerance was for their behaviors that were hard to tolerate.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 5:34 AM on December 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
So I think folks have covered why this is problematic to begin with and why it's about his behavior and willingness to adjust his behavior and not about a magical mystery diagnosis. However, I wanted to also give you another tidbit about why your therapist's suggestion is also not very helpful.
I have a very close family member who as an adult sought out an autism diagnosis through their own work in therapy and self-study. They received an autism diagnosis from a reputable professional. My therapist, on hearing that from me, filtered through my previous and current experiences as I told them to my therapist said, 'that doesn't sound right. I don't think [family member] sounds autistic.' Which is to say, your therapist gets your perceptions of your boyfriend filtered through you and your experiences and is in no way qualified to argue for or against a diagnosis of autism.
posted by carrioncomfort at 7:56 AM on December 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
I have a very close family member who as an adult sought out an autism diagnosis through their own work in therapy and self-study. They received an autism diagnosis from a reputable professional. My therapist, on hearing that from me, filtered through my previous and current experiences as I told them to my therapist said, 'that doesn't sound right. I don't think [family member] sounds autistic.' Which is to say, your therapist gets your perceptions of your boyfriend filtered through you and your experiences and is in no way qualified to argue for or against a diagnosis of autism.
posted by carrioncomfort at 7:56 AM on December 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Mistress at 3:12 PM on November 30, 2019 [9 favorites]