What are the sexual obligations of a husband or wife?

March 8, 2006 11:32 AM

What are the sexual obligations, if any, of a husband or wife?

I don't mean strictly legally here, but in practical terms. I'm looking for some perspective as I my partner and I have sex just a few times a year now. Though I love this person dearly, and do not want to leave them, this situation is driving me completely crazy and I can't take it much longer.

posted by anonymous to Human Relations (87 answers total)

It's fair for you to tell your spouse "This is not working for me. Is there something I can change to make our sex life satisfying again? Is there something we need to do?" If he or she is unwilling to reasonably accomodate you, it's fair to ask for a divorce or respond "if you're not interested in ever having sex with me, then I will pursue relief outside of our marriage." The results after that will vary wildly.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:41 AM on March 8, 2006

Take another look at your wedding vows, anonymous. There was probably something about loving and cherishing and probably a phrase about death, or so long as we both shall live, you know eternity type stuff. To put this bluntly, there was probably not a word about bonking. You said those things. You meant them. Keep meaning them.
posted by bilabial at 11:42 AM on March 8, 2006

There are no obligations; nobody should be made to feel like they are obligated, legally or ortherwise, to have sex when they don't want to have sex. And if you love someone, you certainly don't want (in the long run) to have sex with them knowing they're just letting you have it because you want it, and they don't have a desire to share it with you.

Marriage counseling. If the other party won't go, go by yourself. A hard decision may have to be made. Good luck.
posted by Gator at 11:43 AM on March 8, 2006

This may be helpful. You are not alone.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:45 AM on March 8, 2006

In some states with fault-based divorce, no sex for a period of time (I think it might be a year or so, not just a couple months) is grounds for a divorce.
posted by necessitas at 11:45 AM on March 8, 2006

Take another look at your wedding vows, anonymous. There was probably something about loving and cherishing and probably a phrase about death, or so long as we both shall live, you know eternity type stuff.

His wife seems no longer willing to love or cherish him. She has broken the vows, not him. Trying to fix an unhappy relationship is to be admired; staying in one when all else has failed is lunacy.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:47 AM on March 8, 2006

Problem solved. I'm going to write my own vows and put lots of stuff about gratuitous sex in them. w00t! :-)

As far as obligations? Eh, I think that it's a grey area..
* Guy guilts her into sex. Wife claims 'spousal rape' and bad things happen.
* Guy hires hooker. Big problems.
* Guy cheats. Wife lawyers up and takes 1/2 of everything.

Some will say that the wife is obligated to serve her husband. Some will claim otherwise.
posted by drstein at 11:51 AM on March 8, 2006

bilabial: I'd be willing to bet that there wasn't a word in anon's vows about sexual misery, either, or physical abuse, or any of a million other things.

Marriage counsellors might be able to help you with your issue, anonymous. I'm assuming you've told your partner that you're going crazy over the lack of sex, though. Have you tried just talking with your partner.

On preview, I'm not really adding anything new, but chiming in: communication and counselling may be able to help.
posted by boo_radley at 11:52 AM on March 8, 2006

I really don't think we should jump to conclusions. The poster carefully worded the question so that we don't know who's holding out on whom; we also don't know why. (Lack of love? Past abuse? Side effect of a drug? Clinical depression? Latent homosexuality? Simple disinterest? Best not to speculate, unless anon chooses to email Jess and elaborate for us.)
posted by Gator at 11:54 AM on March 8, 2006

Bonking is part of loving and cherishing, for a lot of people. It's not unreasonable to expect sex to be part of your marriage. Definitely time for counseling if you want to save the marriage and have a chnace at being happy.
posted by InfidelZombie at 11:56 AM on March 8, 2006

His wife seems no longer willing to love or cherish him. She has broken the vows, not him. Trying to fix an unhappy relationship is to be admired; staying in one when all else has failed is lunacy.

It is possible that there is more than meets the eye. Perhaps she has gained weight, or is unhappy about her body? Maybe anon has made unkind comments about her weight/body causing her to feel uncomfortable and avoid intimacy?

Maybe anon is just really bad in bed? Or maybe he has expressed desires that she isn't comfortable with?

My guess is that there are other things going on here, beyond lack of libido.
posted by necessitas at 11:57 AM on March 8, 2006

Wedding vows in the Church of England used to contain a promise "with my body I thee honour", but I think it's been taken out of the standard wording now.

Talk to your partner.
posted by essexjan at 12:00 PM on March 8, 2006

I feel that the obligation is to treat your marriage like a sexual relationship unless agreed otherwise. That doesn't mean three positions, four times a week and oral on Saturday nights, it means that the relationship you have is distinct from the way you'd relate to a friend, a business partner, or a relative. Whatever that means at any time can vary hugely, things wax and wane, but to me, both partners need to agree that being sexual with each other is vital to the relationship, valuable and worth working on. You might not have sex for months (or ever again even), and that might be ok if a sexual connection remains and is important to you - or if you're both working on getting back to that. When it's not, or you're not, you might have a great roommate, but (to me) that's not a marriage.

Bilabial - to me, the bonking is so obvious it's unspoken.
posted by crabintheocean at 12:07 PM on March 8, 2006

Go to a counselor.

Are there things which have changed significantly since the marriage? Are there things you've done, or not done to affect it? Things she's done?

Examine why your wife is reluctant to have sex. Since we know no details, it could be something along the lines as she just wants romance with the expectation of sex. When's the last time you both dressed up nice and had a romantic evening? Etc...etc.
posted by Atreides at 12:10 PM on March 8, 2006

My guess is that there are other things going on here, beyond lack of libido.
posted by necessitas at 11:57 AM PST on March 8

We work with the information that we have. Assigning traits to the questioner that he may not have is helpful to no one.

Speaking of: I stopped with the gender neutral stuff because it is annoying, not because I automatically assume the asker is a man.

This is a hard question to ask and it always makes me really sad because everyone cheats the unfulfilled partner like shit.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:10 PM on March 8, 2006

I've been on the other side of this before -- I had a kid, gained weight, had the usual exhaustion and hormonal fluctuations, the emotional stuff, etc. And just didn't want to have sex. I felt bad for my husband. How do you say, "it makes my skin crawl when you touch me, but don't take it personally"? It really isn't personal but if you're the one getting rejected it feels personal.

Anon, you really have to talk to your partner about this. There is nothing wrong with making it clear that you want more and are going nuts. The other person probably would feel better with a frank discussion than with the vague guilt they no doubt feel. It is not about who is obligated to do what. It is about negotiating a marriage that works.

The other person may not even know why they are suffering loss of libido. I know I had to try a variety of things to improve the situation - exercise, nutrition, sleep, etc. The other person is not going to be motivated to do these things if they don't know that you are bothered.
posted by selfmedicating at 12:10 PM on March 8, 2006

My guess is that there are other things going on here, beyond lack of libido.

Which is why Anon. needs to follow the advice in Optimus's very first post in this thread.

Talk to your spouse. Listen to what (s)he has to say. Diagnose your marital problems and start working towards a solution.
posted by S.C. at 12:13 PM on March 8, 2006

Optimus is right on the money here, and for Pete's sake read the Savage Love column he linked to.

It needs to be said that depriving a spouse of sex—or subjecting them to absolutely joyless sex in the hope that they'll stop asking—is an act of emotional violence. And this brand of emotional violence not only creates frustration, anger, and desperation, it inevitably leads to infidelity, which all too often leads to divorce, broken homes, and traumatized children.
posted by languagehat at 12:14 PM on March 8, 2006

Is it just me, or is anonymous carefully gender-neutral? It's not always the woman that loses interest in sex.
posted by desuetude at 12:17 PM on March 8, 2006

Assigning traits to the questioner that he may not have is helpful to no one.

Absolutely true, but some of us seem to be assigning traits to the asker's spouse that he or she may not have, too -- "no longer willing to love," "unwilling to accomodate," "broken vows," etc. It's just as saddening.
posted by Gator at 12:21 PM on March 8, 2006

I love how (nearly) everyone's assuming that it's the wife holding out on the husband, when the question itself doesn't reveal the gender of the spouse refusing sex. RED ALERT: Husbands withhold sex from wives, too -- just check out the Savage Love column for proof that it goes both ways. Some women have greater sexual needs than the men in their lives. As shocking as it may be to believe, we women are not all cold fish.

ANYhoo, regardless of gender, I fully agree with the Savage Love quote that languagehat quotes. Two people's sex drives may never be exactly equal, but a loving commitment -- to me -- means that both partners work towards at least a middle ground precisely because they love each other, and therefore each other's needs matter.
posted by scody at 12:23 PM on March 8, 2006

Funny how people assume the questioner is male and that the partner is female.

I was in a relationship where I lost sexual interest while the other person remained very sexually interested and she got very frustrated, angry, and hurt. I don't think there's any doubt that, as a committed couple, you share a responsibility to maintain a happy relationship and so, regardless of what is "normal" or "right" or "reasonable", you do have a responsibility to try to resolve this conflict and to be understanding about your partner's point-of-view.

But you probably know that and the problem is that when it gets right down to it you've got a fundamental disagreement about sexual expectations.

And I don't know what to tell you. There's a variety of reasons why someone may not have much sexual interest, and so the approach to this problem is very dependent upon what's underneath that lack of interest. (Or your heightened interest, if we normalize it to your partner.) The lack of interest could be indicative of a deeper emotional problem in your relationship. It could be related to a history of sexual abuse. All sorts of things are possible, and each one is a different situation.

The bottom line, though, in my opinion, is that it's less important to somehow define what is "normal" or what are "reasonable expectations" than it is to realize that you simply must come to some agreement about this matter. It's less important to know who's right and who's wrong than it is to try to resolve it.

I know that's too easy to say, and I recognize how strong a desire there is to resolve it by answering the question "what is normal?". Believe me, I've been there. But in the end, that really isn't the issue.

On Preview: I disagree with LH and OC. You shouldn't jump to the conclusion that your partner is "witholding sex" as a manipulative behavior. In fact, I very strongly disagree with this claim that it's "normal" to have sex as often as the partner who wants sex often prefers and the other partner is morally at fault for not accomodating that. Bullshit. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Dan Savage is often an idiot. The only obligation you have to each other in this matter is the same one you have in others: to work toward, and maintain, mutual happiness in the relationship. That doesn't include a definition of how much sex is required for a healthy relationship.

The male response here is stereotypical and clearly colored by self-interest.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:24 PM on March 8, 2006 [2 favorites]

Thank you, EB. What I've been saying, only better.
posted by Gator at 12:28 PM on March 8, 2006

In fact, I very strongly disagree with this claim that it's "normal" to have sex as often as the partner who wants sex often prefers and the other partner is morally at fault for not accomodating that.

Neither I nor languagehat nor Mr. Savage made that claim.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:30 PM on March 8, 2006

"Neither I nor languagehat nor Mr. Savage made that claim."

Seems to me that you are if you are jumping to the conclusion that it's the supposed "withholder" who's in the wrong.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:40 PM on March 8, 2006

Interestingly, Jewish law specifies that it is the husband's marital obligation to sexually satisfy his wife:

From Kosher Sex: "Sex is the woman's right, not the man's. A man has a duty to give his wife sex regularly and to ensure that sex is pleasurable for her. He is also obligated to watch for signs that his wife wants sex, and to offer it to her without her asking for it. The woman's right to sexual intercourse is referred to as onah, and is one of a wife's three basic rights (the others are food and clothing), which a husband may not reduce. The Talmud specifies both the quantity and quality of sex that a man must give his wife. It specifies the frequency of sexual obligation based on the husband's occupation, although this obligation can be modified in the (ketubah) marriage contract."
posted by kitschbitch at 12:42 PM on March 8, 2006

The bottom line, though, in my opinion, is that it's less important to somehow define what is "normal" or what are "reasonable expectations" than it is to realize that you simply must come to some agreement about this matter. It's less important to know who's right and who's wrong than it is to try to resolve it.

I agree with this in principle. But some gulfs are too wide to bridge. Moreover, I think there's a strong case to be made that "a few times a year" (presumably, less than five?) is objectively sub-normal to a statistically significant degree. And, by extension, something that unusual could permit the spouse to feel legitimately aggrieved.

Also, while I agree that the logical next step is open communication, counseling, etc., what if (hypothetically), the answer is that the spouse simply does not want to have sex more than, say, twice a year. What if it is just libido? What is a "moral" spouse to do then? In other words, I'm turning the question around on anonymous: What are his [her] rights or obligations? Stick with the status quo and "suffer"? Commit adultry? Leave the spouse?
posted by pardonyou? at 12:43 PM on March 8, 2006

And, by extension, something that unusual could permit the spouse to feel legitimately aggrieved.

I do think it's a legitimate grievance, don't get me wrong; it's not at all unreasonable to expect sex as part of your marriage (unless there was a pre-existing agreement to the contrary, which was apparently not the case here). But I think it IS unreasonable to expect sex from someone who is unwilling or unable to give it to you, for whatever reason -- and really, any reason is "legitimate," even if it's just spite. Sex when one of the parties isn't willing is pretty much by definition non-consensual, right?

So yeah, a hard decision may have to be made, as I said in my first comment, and I do wish Anon the best of luck in resolving it. Trying to come up with support for what "obligations" exist is a baaaaaaad way to do that, in my opinion.
posted by Gator at 12:49 PM on March 8, 2006

I just took a marriage course (getting married in August) and the course claimed that there are usually 3 major failures in a marriage: communication, communication, communication. (sex and finances are 4&5).

Has the original poster sat down and talked with their partner while not blaming them for the lack of sex?

In my mind, marriage is not a contract of handing your body over to your spouse but it is instead a partnership saying that you will work together through thick and thin.

You cannot work things out without talking to eachother.
posted by cbushko at 12:54 PM on March 8, 2006

Er, hopefully no one will think that I was implying Anon wanted to rape his or her spouse just to get his or her rocks off with the "non-consensual" part of my above comment. Pre-emptively shooting that down, if I may.
posted by Gator at 12:55 PM on March 8, 2006

Response by poster: Be careful with the word "obligations". They are not obligated to have sex with you. They're not your sex slave. A partner is obligated to have open discussions about problems in your relationship, and is obligated to listen and carefully consider your concerns and feelings, and is obligated to make comprimises and go to counseling and go to the doctor and do all that shit if necessary. Basically, do everything they can to resolve the issue.

A one-sided loss of interest in sexual activity can be tremendously damaging to a relationship. The unfulfilled partner can end up feeling unloved and unattractive; the libido-less partner feels used and as if they're only important to the other person for their body.

Sexual and emotional intimacy are irrevocably intertwined in most long-term relationships. You must bring this up with your partner. Not "Hey, bang me more often", but "Look, I miss the connection we used to have during sex. I'm feeling neglected and I wonder if you're even attracted to me any more. Could we discuss this?" Etc etc.
posted by Anonymous at 12:57 PM on March 8, 2006

"Trying to come up with support for what "obligations" exist is a baaaaaaad way to do that, in my opinion."

I agree. Anon's post gives the slight indication that he/she is looking for ammo for an upcoming battle...
posted by cbushko at 12:58 PM on March 8, 2006

"What are his [her] rights or obligations? Stick with the status quo and "suffer"? Commit adultry? Leave the spouse?"

Probably end the relationship. That doesn't require identifying who is wrong and who is right. It's a irreconcilable difference.

I've been on both sides of this—in my marriage I was the frustrated partner. But in neither example—where I wasn't interested or where my partner wasn't interested—was it a case of someone withholding as a manipulative act. I just cannot see why people are jumping to that conclusion unless their view of men and women and relationships are very stereotyped and simplistic.

Because I've been on both sides of this, I've spent a huge amount of intellectual and emotional energy considering it. I think I would have come to the "it's mostly irrelevant to worry about what is normal or right" way of thinking—partly because I came to that conclusion when I was the frustrated partner, not the uninterested partner. But certainly having later been on the other side I'm even less inclined to make assertions about what the "right" amount of sex is in my own relationships, and this impression x10 for couples in general.

Yes, sex is usually a key part of a healthy romantic relationship. But sometimes many seem to forget that there are a non-negligable number of sexless happy romantic relationships. The lack of sex may be for a variety of reasons. It may be by choice, or it may be forced upon them. Even so, people are fully capable of being in love and being happy without bonking each other at all. Asserting that one's own sense of what is normal and expected—say, three times a week—is "normal" for everyone and someone who is less interested than that is abnormal or possibly deliberately hurtful...come on. That's so egocentric.

Furthermore, as long as we're engaging in some gender/sexual stereotypes, then it occurs to me to ask: how much "talk about feelings" is normal? If the husband doesn't want to have a weekly talk about how they feel about each other, is he "withholding" a crucial aspect of the relationship from his partner? Is he "wrong"? Is he being manipulative? Is it "violence"?

What's supposedly "normal" doesn't matter. All that matters is compatibility and the committment to the relationship (which includes hard work and compromise). Try to find a way to resolve the conflict. Worrying about who's right and wrong is a selfish emotional indulgance.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:59 PM on March 8, 2006

Seems to me that you are if you are jumping to the conclusion that it's the supposed "withholder" who's in the wrong.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:40 PM PST on March 8

I think that expecting sex more than a couple times a year is perfectly reasonable. If there are additional details that would support otherwise, that would be one thing; however, you are attributing things to the asker without sufficient evidence.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:01 PM on March 8, 2006

Is there not also a possibility that there is something physiologically wrong with anon's partner? Counselling has been mentioned a number of times but it may also be worthwhile to consult a physician. There are certain hormonal issues that can cause a severely decreased libido. Just a thought.
posted by madokachan at 1:02 PM on March 8, 2006

Anon: It seems to me your situation is not entirely hopeless and quite possibly remediable. The key is, that you [say] you are having sex a few times a year. This puts you in company with 13% of all married couples (sez Kinsey). All is not lost, and a good counseling program could dissect the situation, help you build on what is satisfying about those few times, remediate what is not, find ways to rebuild and ultimately improve the relationship.
posted by beagle at 1:03 PM on March 8, 2006

What are the sexual obligations, if any, of a husband or wife?

To stay healthy and clean and unsmelly and not too fat, and to put out once or twice a week or more if you're able, assuming the other partner wants it. Unfortunately, we aren't always able, usually for mental reasons unless we're talking about old folk.

I don't know how old you are; if you and mate are getting on in years, your complaint may not be reasonable. We get old and saggy and wrinkly and lose our hormonal drive. Meanwhile, our mates are going through the same changes and therefore perhaps becoming less sexually attractive. Even without all the other problems that could come up -- stress, depression, addiction, illness -- it's not surprising when someone pretty much gives up on sex.

And if such problems are coming up -- stress, depression, addiction, illness -- you wouldn't have to be old at all for them to make you lose your drive. If you're on the young side, try to think of the big obvious clue that you're probably overlooking. I'll assume, for the sake of grammar, that your partner is a he. If it's not stress, depression, addiction, or illness, maybe he has become fat and feels totally uncomfortable and unsexy naked. Or he's on medication that reduces libido. Or he comes too fast or not at all. Or you are a lot different (fatter, perhaps, or you're grown a big moustache) than you were when you two started out together. You have become malodorous, scaly, leprous. He's cheating and she's more than enough for him sexually. You're cheating and he knows it and hates you for it. You're not cheating but he thinks you are and hates you for it. He never really loved you and now he's tired of pretending. He loves you but he was never into sex and used to try just for your sake, and now he just can't be bothered. Stuff like that. Big, obvious, easy stuff that we somehow have a hard time seeing sometimes.

Go through a list like that and think, not whether such things are probable, because you may not realize how probable something is. Instead, think whether they are possible. Once you have a list of possibilities, have another look at him and his condition. You might discover something important.
posted by pracowity at 1:15 PM on March 8, 2006

My first reaction was to post the Savage Love link that Optimus Chyme did, so I second reading that.

Anon, since you say you're looking for some perspective, I think it's completely reasonable to expect sex to be part of your marriage. It's not unreasonable to expect it more than a few times a year. As others have mentioned, it is unreasonable to demand more if you don't feel that you're getting enough, but you don't give any indication at all that you were considering that.

We don't know *why* you're not having as much sex as you would like. I'd guess it's likely you don't know either. Have you discussed this with your spouse? I realize that that's MUCH easier said than done, but it seems to me to be the only reasonable first step in resolving the problem. If you need some help in "how to have a difficult conversation", I recommend taking a look at Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss what Matters Most by Douglas Stone.
posted by INTPLibrarian at 1:17 PM on March 8, 2006

Yeah, what everyone said - obligations don't count.

I have lived this for many years - it started soon after the birth of our children (the oldest now 15) and got progressively worse. I can't remember the last time we had sex - I think maybe twice in the last four years.

Initially, I was devastated. My womanliness (I thought) was at question, my desirability, and therefore my self-esteem. I was very angry and hurt. It was (and remains) one of the most difficult things for us to talk about because of that connection (I think) to our esteem(s).

Finally, he agreed to see a doctor. He has a condition that reduces his testosterone to a level lower than mine. He has no interest in sex, and can't even see what the problem is. (Artificial testosterone made him aggressive and unpleasant to live with).

For me, because I so value the other aspects of our partnership, for example, the truly unconditional love, the companionship, I have learned to live with this, and as I age (I'm 39 this year), my libido has dropped considerably - I think the old "use it or lose it" works here.

I wouldn't recommend this kind of marriage to everyone. Clearly, I benefit more than I am distressed (now), but going without sex has been very difficult. May I suggest you start with the discussions, without accusing I find it very difficult that we don't have sex often and move on to (good luck) suggesting complete a complete check up by your family doctor. Counselling is often recommended here, but I expect it would be very difficult.

I considered infidelity, but I would find it impossible to share my body without eventually sharing my heart, and therefore, I believe it would destroy my marriage.

I sometimes think about the areas of my life and marriage where I am particularly well off and try to accept that it's the luck of the draw.
posted by b33j at 1:30 PM on March 8, 2006

Clearly there's a lack of communication between anon and anon's spouse. Resolving that is the first task.

Perhaps the spouse is no longer attracted to anon. Or has lost interest in sex, and isn't interested in regaining an interest in sex. I don't know.

I strongly believe that the marriage needs to serve the people in it, not the other way around. If, after lines of communication have been opened up (possibly with a counselor, possibly not), it becomes clear that the two partners have fundamentally different expectations from their marriage, then it isn't working for them.
posted by adamrice at 1:36 PM on March 8, 2006

follow-up from the original poster:

I specifically left gender out of the question because I don't see that it's very relevant to the question. Having said that, it's difficult to provide more detail without revealing gender. Let me add the following information: we have young children, and I would say that the sex has slowed to a trickle ever since our first child was born. My partner is certainly aware of my feelings about our sex life, but doesn't share my sense of urgency (?) about the problem IMO. I have suggested that we see a counsellor, but they do not agree that it would be helpful and have suggested I see one on my own.

This thread has been very interesting and helpful. I expect I will seek the advice of a marriage counsellor, by myself if necessary.
posted by jessamyn at 1:57 PM on March 8, 2006

Thank you for following up, Anon. I sincerely wish you the best of luck, as I have said.

Do get the counseling, even on your own if that's the only option. Keep in mind, you shouldn't expect that your partner will see this effort on your part and come to his or her senses and join you; it may happen, but it may very well not. Be prepared for that. Keep the lines of communication open, but don't try to guilt your partner into joining you or anything like that, and certainly don't involve your children in the whole mess. Also keep in mind that you may need to shop around for a counselor that is right for you. You and your family will be in my thoughts.
posted by Gator at 2:05 PM on March 8, 2006

I specifically left gender out of the question because I don't see that it's very relevant to the question. Having said that, it's difficult to provide more detail without revealing gender.

Ok, so gender isn't too relevant, but you're going out of your way to conceal it and leaving out other information that could be helpful. The way this question and follow-up are written, it's almost impossible to provide any helpful advice.

There are a million reasons why people lose sexual interest in their partners. You should definitely seek counseling if you wish to preserve the relationship. The longer you remain in this state, the more likely you are to harbor resentment, which will ultimately ruin the other aspects of your relationship. The fact that he/she doesn't consider it a problem worthy of going to therapy with you means either you haven't conveyed the severity of the problem properly, or your spouse doesn't give a shit. If it's the latter, I'd question whether it's worth staying with this person.
posted by knave at 2:22 PM on March 8, 2006

By the way, to answer the question directly: What sexual obligations exist? None. Period.
posted by knave at 2:24 PM on March 8, 2006 [2 favorites]

Get counselling for sure. If this arrangement is not working for you, you have a right to ask for a change, whether it's sex, communication, finances, or anything. You have every right to have life the way you want it, or at least try to.

I was in this position several years ago. Wife refused to go to counselling. . .I was on the verge of leaving but didn't because I could not face my daughter and tell her I was not going to be living there anymore.

Now, the shoe is on the other foot, and it's my wife who wants it more than I do.

Life is funny that way. . .
posted by Danf at 2:55 PM on March 8, 2006

My partner is certainly aware of my feelings about our sex life, but doesn't share my sense of urgency

This, to me, is the REAL problem. If my wife says she's having a problem -- any problem -- it IS my obligation, as her partner, to take it seriously. If I were you, anon, I would deal with this before dealing with the sexual stuff.

I would say, "Honey, I've told you about something that is really important and urgent to me, and I need it to be important to you too -- even if you only think it's important because it's making me unhappy. I'm not trying to pressure you into a specific solution. I'm asking you to take this seriously and problem-solve with me." If he/she is not willing to do that, then you're living with someone who isn't able (or willing) to be your partner. You'll have to choose how you want to deal with that fact.

If he is willing to take you seriously, then get to work. Communication, counseling, etc.
posted by grumblebee at 2:57 PM on March 8, 2006

Hmmm. This is a toughie. Counseling is good, but doesn't really solve the problem on the libido-less person's side. Sure, they will become more aware of the problem, but it probably will not make them want it more. What may result is feeling even more guilt and anger on their part, and it becomes an even bigger elephant in the room than it was before.

If they are on medications, try a different one. Discuss with said partner why their libido is gone. Is it stress? Kids? Work? Their bodies? Your body? Do they have the feeling after kids that sex is "dirty" (the madonna/whore complex)-and that goes for male or female.

Do you "keep track" of the sex and bring that up? Do you hound him/her for it? This is such a hard thing. Because if you don't hound, then you will never get it. But when you do hound, it just makes the other person resentful and angry. You give them a nice kiss and this is what goes through their head while it's happening: "Oh god, (s)he is kissing me, does that mean this will have to lead to sex and I will turn him/her down AGAiN." Believe me, it happens in the person's head-all while you're kissing them.

I guess my answer is to realize that these things can go in waves (but it sounds like it's been gone a long time so this may not be a wave) and go to counseling, and really try to convince the other person that it's very important to you that they go with you. Counseling alone is nice, but you're only half the problem...probably less than that. Counseling is not the be-all, end-all for solving problems. It may just increase the guilt. But at least then you will know it's an intractable problem.

If it's that important and you can't find a happier medium (less than you'd like and more than they'd like) then perhaps you need to end it. you may need to get a divorce. You cannot go through life miserable like that. But try to work it out.
posted by aacheson at 3:23 PM on March 8, 2006

Having small children-especially if one is still nursing a baby-affects the sex drive physiologically. It takes time and rest to get it back-but eventually it will return, assuming the marriage isn't emotionally damaged by then.

But there are physiological reasons, so there is hope.

(And yes I know this from experience.)
posted by konolia at 3:28 PM on March 8, 2006

seconding grumblebee. If your partner doesn't understand your level of distress, that's one thing -- you may find that you need to express yourself more clearly and even vulnerably, after which your partner might change their mind and want to go to counseling with you. However, if your partner understands perfectly well how much distress you're in and still doesn't want to take part in finding a solution together, then I think you've got a different situation on your hands.
posted by scody at 3:38 PM on March 8, 2006

Seems to me that you are if you are jumping to the conclusion that it's the supposed "withholder" who's in the wrong.

No. Dan Savage does seem to be jumping that way, but I'm not; I urged reading the column not because I completely agree with his approach but because he says important things in a powerful way. I'm not saying the partner is in the wrong for "withholding" sex; I am saying, having seen the followup, that they are in the wrong for not taking the poster's feelings seriously enough.

Also, having seen the followup, I have to agree with knave: why does gender not being relevant mean you have to conceal yours? It's not relevant to most AskMe questions, but most posters don't go out of their way to conceal it and force the rest of us to work around the pronouns. Maybe you have some good reason for it, but it's certainly not apparent to the casual observer.

Lots of good comments here, by the way.
posted by languagehat at 5:19 PM on March 8, 2006

It's not unreasonable to expect sex to be part of your marriage.

This is the nub of the matter. "Normal" marriages between "normal" people include the assumption that sex will be involved, and that it will be satisfactory to both parties. "Normal" people have a sex drive. If one partner starts playing the "I just don't want sex anymore" game - or even if it's true and not a cover for some other issue (lover) - they should recognise that they're the one diverging from the normal expectations of married life.

Most people have a libido, and most people want to find someone they love to share that libido with, as opposed to spending their lives bitterly masturbating or fucking around. Again: it is the reasonable thing to expect marriage to include sex. If one partner backs off from this, they have introduced a problem into the marriage (which may or may not be their fault) and they must recognise that it is reasonable that their partner will have a grievance about it. From there, there's only really three ways to go:

1. Their partner miraculously loses interest in sex too. Ahem. Not likely.

2. They may be able to take actions (talking.. separating... getting into wild, leather-clad fetish perve parties... oh, er, forget that last one, sorry) which help alleviate the problem and get the person interested in sex again.

3. They separate.

Good luck.
posted by Decani at 5:29 PM on March 8, 2006

To put this bluntly, there was probably not a word about bonking. You said those things. You meant them. Keep meaning them.

Wow. Judgmental, fundamentalist, scoldingly superior, and NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

What do you think the "have" in "to have and to hold" means? Note the proximity to the word "hold," if you're not getting it, and while you're getting it, get a fucking clue before you tut-tut other people's commitment to their wedding vows.

All relationships, especially marriages, require some effort to meet each other's needs. Sex is a human need, not some frivolous pursuit or capricious demand. It's a basic physical / emotional need. If you have no common ground in what you both want, then you're in trouble. But if all you are asking is a little more openness, a little more effort, a little more patience, then you are on reasonable ground.

One should never force anyone to have sex when they don't want to. But, having been on both sides of the situation, it is often worth TRYING if at first you don't feel "in the mood." Being open to a little foreplay, for example, even if you feel tired, can often lead to good sex if you give it a chance. I RARELY arrive at the end of a day in a bouncy, sensuous mood and hot to trot the second I pull back the bedspread. But I've learned over time not to say "no" right away if my partner approaches me in that moment - but to at least try to return their advances a little and see where it goes. It's not always the best sex, for me, but sometimes it is. If, other times, it's better for them, that's cool too. Sometimes, with sex, you have an unremarkable physical experience and this gives you the luxury of paying attention to and enjoying your partner's reactions. This is not "having sex when you don't want to," it's being loving and generous about pleasure. Try it sometime.

If someone says "no, actually, I'm REALLY not in the mood" after 2 minutes of kissing, then yeah, leave them alone. If they won't even kiss you for 2 minutes and give it a chance, except for 3 times a year, they're derelict in their role as your spouse. Period.

You deserve a good sex life. Good luck.
posted by scarabic at 7:46 PM on March 8, 2006

The bible says that the husband is obligated to the wife (sexually) and vice versa, but that abstinance for a while is ok, if both agree. It doesn't specify frequency, but I would suggest weekly is reasonable.
posted by JamesMessick at 7:50 PM on March 8, 2006

1. Their partner miraculously loses interest in sex too. Ahem. Not likely.

Heh. Well, if you ever tell your spouse that you "just don't want sex anymore," and find some time afterward that they, too, seem to have lost interest in it, please rest assured that what they have lost interest in is sex with you. If you are lucky, they are suffering in silence and masturbating in the shower a lot (a really pathetic low point to bring someone you love down to). If you are unlucky, they are getting their needs met elsewhere.
posted by scarabic at 7:52 PM on March 8, 2006

I realize that many will reject this out of hand, but one partner "getting their needs met elsewhere" is not necessarily the most horrible fate in the world if everyone involved is open, honest, and agreeable about it. It's a real option, which may or may not work out depending on the people involved.
posted by kyrademon at 8:31 PM on March 8, 2006

I really appreciate the poster for this question--one of the reasons I signed up for MeFi was to eventually ask this question myself.

I am in the same position (ahem), but without children. I am female in a heterosexual relationship and am in a lot of pain over this issue. I have tried talking about it, but it goes nowhere. If and when we do have sex, it is difficult, if not impossible, to feel wanted.

I have evidence that he still masterbates, so the libedo is not gone, or at least not entirely. His explainations range from being tired to stressed to vague things he seemingly just thinks up on the spot. He has admitted that this is his problem, in addition to being a problem for me and our problem as a couple.

The topic is very hard to bring up and it has only gotten increasingly more so. I really do care about him and we get along very well otherwise, but my depression and self-blame are slowly turning to downright anger at him. I do think, though, that as he has stated that he does take some blame for the situation, that I will ask him to first go get a physical and discuss this with a doctor, then go from there.

Thanks for bringing this up in a non-gender specific way, poster, as I have done some looking around on the web and have found no info on being the female who is more interested in sex. Thanks for letting me hear some views on this.
posted by thebrokedown at 8:34 PM on March 8, 2006

I don't know what vows the rest of you used but the vows my wife and I exchanged -did- include a passage about sexuality and fufillment.

We can assume that anon. is male. I think it is also safe to say that only having sex with your husband a handful of times a -year- is asking for either a divorce, an affair, or a miserable relationship.

In a happy relationship, partners -want- to satisfy each other.
posted by JFitzpatrick at 11:41 PM on March 8, 2006

Anon,

I'm coming to the party late.

Two insights.

One, you're talking to everyone but the person you need to: your significant other. Metafilter isn't going to (realistically) provide the answer here.

Which brings me to believe, aside from your SO, you could use a stronger support system (friends, family) outside of your marriage itself. You're coming here (in my observation) rather than people who know both of you, and only want the best for you both.

Second, fighting about Sex (or the lack of), is almost never about sex...but about other things. This is what you need to discuss with your SO (or/and a marital therapist).
posted by filmgeek at 12:45 AM on March 9, 2006

"getting their needs met elsewhere" is not necessarily the most horrible fate in the world if everyone involved is open, honest, and agreeable about it

Agreed, if all of that is true.
posted by scarabic at 12:47 AM on March 9, 2006

filmgeek, with respect, you don't know what friends/family anon. has spoken to, and if you read more closely, you'd seee that s/he has spoken with the partner about it.

If you're going to draw conclusions based solely on the fact that the question was posted here, at least read it all.
posted by scarabic at 12:50 AM on March 9, 2006

request to post from the spouse of Anon. I've edited for personal details and paragraph breaks only.

As soon as I read the question while dinner was cooking I said to my
husband "Hey, your question is on Mefi!". After a bit of
embarrassment he admitted it. (He is
[e-mail] if you want verification [note: removed email]) The
reason I recognized it is because we HAVE discussed this issue, many
times, And each time I have told him the ultimate root of problem is
my fatigue. I work full time with children (delivering children's
programs in a public library, singing, dancing, the whole nine yards)
and in the five years we have been married we have had 3 children. I
am, by far, the primary child-minder, food-cooker, bill-payer,
nappy-washer, car-filler'upper etc. As I have said to him each time
we have had this conversation, I NEED time to myself. I give myself
to a job I love 9-5, and then come home and have my own children that
I love always on me (we are all very touch-feely), household
obligations, daily phonecalls to the grandparents, and a million other
pulls on my attention and time When I have read the children their
multiple nighttime stories, sung a song or twelve and tucked them into
bed and they are finally asleep I need to lie in bed myself and read
to decompress from my day.

Anon, by contrast, works part-time,
mostly alone on a computer (with lots of internet surfing, and
obviously time to post on mefi) and has a daily wind-down after work
in the basement for half an hour to an hour with his pot and his
music. His evenings at home are quite relaxing really, he does not
grocery shop or run errands or prepare dinner. He also is in a band
and has practises/records with them. Contrast that with the fact that
in six years of marriage I have _never_, yes, _never_ seen my friends
or family without my children with me; Anon simply will not look
after the children or take them out of the house every once in a while
to give me a break. I am not exaggerating, he fully admits that I do
the lion's share of the emotionally intensive child-rearing (he is,
however, quite good at cleaning the house, especially when I have
taken the children out for the day). He just doesn't want to look
after the children alone if I am available as it too much effort for
him (his words). So all the advice about "talking to your spouse"
doesn't do him a lick of good if he doesn't listen to what his spouse
says and blows off my suggestions. He feels don't respect his sexual
needs, I feel he does not respect my need to have "me time" or
down-time.

Anon mourns the way our relationship was in the first
months when neither of us worked and we had time and energy to fuck
all day if we wanted. Since then, my work and the needs of our
children (one of whom is still nursing) literally take up all my time
and energy (take note that I am writing this at 5.30 am, the only time
I could find to myself). So maybe there should be a question on a
askmefi "What are the obligations of a spouse the share the parental
burden so that one partner is not doing all the work and she can then
have the energy to get the freak on with the man she loves"?

I can't
reduce my hours at work as I am the breadwinner and I can't exactly
leave my kids on the street in order to get time to myself so it is
really up to Anon to work with me on this problem, rather than
putting the entire onus on me to find more time and energy in my
already overstretch day, or on the internet to solve a relationship
problem while only hearing one side. I LOVE my Anon and I love
having sex with him (methinks he is exaggerating on the complete lack
of sex, although it is true, it not the daily romp we would both like)
but with the schedule I have I need him to work with me and not simply
sit on the couch and threaten to go elsewhere to fill his needs. Oh,
and a dinner out together alone if only once in our marriage would be
nice too (although I would miss the toys I get with my meals when I
eat out with the children). I'm totally fine with seeing a counsellor
because I honestly believe any competent counsellor would look at our
schedules and tell Anon he has to start sharing the childcare a lot
more equitably to relieve my physical and emotional fatigue.

I'm sorry Jessamyn, I thought this would only be a sentence or two,
feel free to edit as you see necessary before you post it. But since
he will read this thread be sure to leave in that I love him, because
I truly do, he is the best thing ever to happen in my life, even
though he is human and not perfect. Plus, he has a really, really
cute bum.
posted by jessamyn at 5:04 AM on March 9, 2006 [1 favorite]

another anonymous followup from another MeFi user.

I'm female and I was married. After marriage I contracted a disease that almost as a side effect, makes penetrative sex very painful (I'd rather not specify the disease on metafilter because I don't want my now ex-husband to find this). Even though specialists did tests, and proved beyond a doubt what was wrong, and put me on medications (that did nothing to alleviate the pain), my husband refused to believe that I was ill. He accused me of "faking it" to get attention. We dragged on like this for almost two years, with me having sex with him about once a month, and sobbing alone in the bathroom afterwards, with an icepack for the pain. The bitch of it is that I very, very much enjoyed sex and this was a nightmare for me as well. My husband was a little...uptight, shall we say, so alternatives to penetrative sex weren't very well considered. I left him eventually. Because of my experience, I'd really like people to understand that we don't have enough details about the situation. And I'd like people to understand that it can be horribly impossible for a woman to date and maintain a relationship when sex, for whatever reason, isn't very possible.


I'd also like to note that I have a number of friends on Prozac, and that for most of them, it completely kills the libido, but that going off, for multiple reasons, isn't an option either. I like to advocate compassion, for anyone going through a difficult time, but I hate to see the pileup on people who can't do sex.
posted by jessamyn at 5:06 AM on March 9, 2006

Spouse of Anon, thank you for saying your piece. Since you say that you are fine with counselling (in direct contradiction of what Anon told us, but that's neither here nor there), perhaps it would be good for you to seek out a counsellor on your own, in your admittedly spare-to-non-existent free time. It may not seem "fair" to you, since you see Anon as the one with the bulk of the problems, but you may find it helpful. And as I said to Anon, don't go to counselling with the intent of "guilting" him into accompanying you, or with the expectation that he'll "come around," or any motive other than improving the happiness of your marriage. Once again, best of luck to you both.
posted by Gator at 5:54 AM on March 9, 2006

To anon's wife: You may get some comfort in browsing the relationship questions on MeFi. The answer to "my wife and I don't have enough sex" usually includes a hefty dose of "what have you done for her lately and who takes care of the kids and house?"
posted by desuetude at 6:12 AM on March 9, 2006

Wow, that puts a whole different spin on it (and makes me wish we'd hear from more significant others in these relationship threads). Anon's wife sounds absolutely convincing to me, and as a man who's done my share of letting the wife do too much work, let me say: anon, step up to the plate, dude. Take care of the kids once in a while and give your wife a break; take her out to dinner; do a little more than you really feel like doing every day, even if it means cutting down on your pot-and-music time. I'll bet your sex life will improve dramatically, and hey, you might even feel good about it. I know every time I do the laundry so my wife won't have to, or wash the dishes because she did the cooking, I feel a little glow of "I'm doing the right thing," whereas when I kick back and let her do the heavy lifting I feel a little guilty. Give it a try.
posted by languagehat at 6:30 AM on March 9, 2006

Thanks for the comments, spouse of anonymous.

So here's my revision: if these comments are true, anon, this is absolutely your fault. You don't make dinner? You don't watch your kids? Ever? What the fuck? You're very very lucky your wife loves you so much and you need to get your shit together. Every comment I made above this one does not apply to you. Sheesh.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:50 AM on March 9, 2006

I'd have to say that if the post by anon's wife is in fact a valid post... that pretty much makes him look like a douche.

Smoking pot in the basement? You've got kids. Grow up.
posted by JFitzpatrick at 7:42 AM on March 9, 2006

It's not a question of who's a douche or whose fault it is.

It's very clear you need to strart cooking and doing more of the childcare, anon. If you want to get laid, you know what to do: the dishes, the laundry, and put the kids down while your wife unwinds with a book.

Hopefully, she can step away from these tasks and take the proper "me time." Some folks do all the house/child work because they obsess, and aren't good at relaxing. He can't make relaxation happen for you, wife of anon. You'll have to work at it, too.

You both need to want this to change. Just because there are good reasons why things are this way doesn't mean it's okay.
posted by scarabic at 8:04 AM on March 9, 2006

that pretty much makes him look like a douche. Smoking pot in the basement? You've got kids. Grow up.

Oh, shut up. Everyone has those times in their life where they're just kind of doing his or her own thing, oblivious to the effect it has on others. I should know; I played World of Warcraft for a few months.

But like most people should do eventually, I realized that doing my own thing was poisonous to my health and social life and happiness. It's better and ultimately more rewarding to do the right thing. Sometimes that's as simple as doing the dishes or cleaning up cat vomit or calling a babysitter and taking your wife out for a night on the town. If I personally was a little harsh in my previous comment, it's because sometimes you need a shove and not a push to clean up your act. But let's not turn this into JudgeMe again.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:29 AM on March 9, 2006

Wow. Anon's spouse's post is the nightmare of contemporary motherhood. She's taken on the chief earner role, with the amount of wage work that implies, while at the same time being the sole (non-schooltime or daycare) caretaker of the children. And most of the traditional "housewife" roles, with the exception of some housecleaning.

This isn't unusual for those of us my generation or younger who grew up in a two-income household. The only difference, and I don't think this was at all my mom's solace, is that my dad was the prime earner and a workaholic. And two kids, not three. It wasn't 'till I was a teenager that I realized that my mom came home from work, and then continued to work until about 10 or 11PM.

Part of my point here is that this isn't that unusual of a situation.

I don't think that "fatigue" is a complete description of why anon's spouse isn't interested in sex. I think she's also not interested in sex with anon. From her description, if you think about it and read between the lines, the lack of sex is only an aspect of a more general absence of an actual interactive healthy emotional relationship.

I could be wrong, but it looks to me like it's only a matter of time until anon's spouse divorces him. Unless there is some reason she won't leave him, religious or otherwise. But I'd guess that emotionally, she's already not there. Anon needs to get a clue and save this relationship.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:40 AM on March 9, 2006

Spouse of anon, I just read Kidding Ourselves: Breadwinning, Babies, and Bargaining Power and think it might have some helpful ideas for both of you (though mostly for you, I think, as it's geared more toward women). It talks a lot about the imbalance of personal time in a childed (?) marriage -- guys seem a hell of a lot more able to demand that relaxation time than most women are, and still see watching the kids as "babysitting" rather than "fathering," and the book's got some helpful ideas for talking about that.
posted by occhiblu at 9:24 AM on March 9, 2006

follow-up again from the original poster:

Wow. Well, I guess I look pretty dumb now to many of you. I was just on my lunch break now, and went to this thread to see if any new comments had been made, and whoa - there's my wife of all people, coming on here and discussing (read: kind of trashing me) on Metafilter. Suffice to say, I couldn't finish the lunch.

Though it might make for salacious reading to those not involved, I have no interest in posting a point-by-point rebuttal to her many comments. Any grown-ups here will understand that there are at least two sides to every story. Out of respect, I kept the details strictly on the one issue of concern to me here: lack of sex.

Of course there are other issues involved, but this isn't group analysis, it's a forum for asking a question. I actually prefered to ask this question of people I don't know so that I could avoid as much as possible the sort of personal prejudices people bring to such a discussion when they know the people involved. And no, that's not because all our friends think I'm a lazy pothead jerk or whatever mental picture you may now have of me.

I want to add that, yes, my wife did fairly instantly know it was my post, and we had a good, productive discussion about it last night while the kids were in another room. I felt much better about the whole thing, as one does when you get something off your chest that's been bothering you for a long time.

As far as the counselling goes, I have approached her in the past with this, and her response was exactly as I put it originally (you go if you want to, it's of no interest to me). After our discussion last night, she agreed to go with me to work on our marriage, which, if it weren't obvious, we both very much want to preserve. Again, this thread has been very helpful, if ultimately very embarassing, and I thank everyone who posted. Good luck to us all.
posted by jessamyn at 9:53 AM on March 9, 2006

Wow.

Well, it's excellent to hear you'll be seeking some professional help (whether individually or together). Yay!

I'm starting to think, though, that you both might want to agree to step away from the AskMe. It's fascinating and unusual to have an Anon follow up, to say nothing of Anon's spouse chiming in and Anon following up again. But you're clearly hurt and surprised to see her pop in here, especially after you had already talked about it, and she may now be upset at your most recent comment and want to say a few more words of her own, and...what I'm getting at here is that I hope you'll just talk to each other and your counselor(s) now instead of posting more rebuttals here.

A future followup to the effect of your freak being nicely back on wouldn't be amiss, though.
posted by Gator at 10:16 AM on March 9, 2006

Anon, I understand your motivation in restricting your original question to sex, but it does seem obvious that the larger circumstances of your lives are what's causing the lack of sex. Taking care of your adult relationship together is a necessary prerequisite for you both being sexually happy in your marriage.

A nursing child can be a serious drain on the mother's I-want-to-be-touched energy, even if all other responsibilities (financial, household, childcare) are equal. This does get better, though, as time goes on. (A therapist, who's also a parent, told me she thought most parents start to get their adult lives back after their youngest child hits 5.)

And last: In relationships we often fall into divisions of labor without planning or thinking. One person has a better paying job, or one person can work from home, or the babysitter cancels, and all this other cascade of stuff happens in response: the jobs, the housework, the childcare, everything. It's easy to get stuck in something that doesn't work long-term, and resentment sets in. There will always be a division of labor, but the thing to do is to think about it, to go into it knowing that it's not set in stone, and to commit to making changes when it stops working.

I wish you both the best.
posted by expialidocious at 10:52 AM on March 9, 2006

I understand your motivation in restricting your original question to sex, but it does seem obvious that the larger circumstances of your lives are what's causing the lack of sex. Taking care of your adult relationship together is a necessary prerequisite for you both being sexually happy in your marriage.

So good I had to quote it and highlight the most important point. Her needs (for help with kids and having time to relax, for example) are every bit as important as your needs (for physical intimacy) -- I hope counseling helps provide the space where you can both hear each other express those needs, and find ways for each of you to work towards meeting them together. Best of luck.
posted by scody at 1:28 PM on March 9, 2006

I think Ask Metafilter should post an anonymous group couples therapy session mediated by jessamyn every day.

But seriously, Mr. Anon... unless your wife is out and out lying about the fact that she has never seen her friends or family without the kids... there's no two sides to that. Even making a very generous allowance for her prejudice there really is no interpretation of the situation she describes except she's a liar or you are just flatly not doing your share with the kids. Your "I won't do a point for point rebuttal" response is a cop-out. Step up or accept your low sex lifestyle.
posted by nanojath at 2:01 PM on March 9, 2006

(wow, this ask.metafilter sure took a turn for the odd didn't it...)

Anon, I am glad to see that you and your wife are actually communicating about the problems you are experiencing. A large part of that communication came out on an anonymous forum but it is better than nothing.

It is obvious that your wife loves you and wants to work things out. That is a good thing.

Good luck to both of you and it'd be cool if you kept us updated.
posted by cbushko at 2:51 PM on March 9, 2006

But the actual question should be addressed. The answer is that nobody is obligated to have sex with anyone else, ever.

And... reasonably regular sex is a totally reasonable expectation within a relationship, with exceptions. The exceptions, and what reasonably regular means, are totally dependent on the particular circumstances, as this discussion made so apparent. In almost every case, for almost everyone, except in the very early phases of the relationships of healthy youths, there will be a difference in who wants how much when. If there is anybody out there who still wants and gets it all the time even though they are middle aged, have kids and have been together for years - I don't want to hear about it, please.

Everything is therefore about negotiation. It is clear, whatever one side or the other believes, that your wife believes you are unwilling to negotiate. That is your real problem.
posted by nanojath at 3:20 PM on March 9, 2006

"The answer is that nobody is obligated to have sex with anyone else, ever."

I'm inclined to agree and, indeed, I believe that I've argued such in this very thread. However, I've never been comfortable with the special status sex is granted relative to almost every other human interaction. Why do we suppose that anyone is ever obligated to do anything for anyone else? And if we think that such obligations are reasonable and warranted in general, then why should such a constant feature of human interaction not apply to sexual relations?

I don't have an answer to this. But I do think that while the assertion I've quoted seems right to many people, including me, it isn't unquestionable. Furthermore, in this particular context there is a kind of perverse conflict of purpose: we, on the one hand, want to claim sex as one of the handful of things fundamental to a committed relationships while, on the other hand, claim that neither partner is obligated to do this thing which is fundamental to their relationship. There's a puzzle there, and it's worth thinking about.

Anyway, if I were to try to answer the original question now, I suppose I'd assert the above quote, but with qualification. The qualification would include taking into account the few ways that sexual relations are exceptional in our society, particularly with regard to systemic and incidental power imbalances, health, and personal boundaries vis a vis sexual intimacy. Those things taken together vaguely imply that if such an obligation exists, it's very limited and not quite the same thing as other relationship obligations. But inferring that may be wrong.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:32 PM on March 9, 2006

wow, this ask.metafilter sure took a turn for the odd didn't it...

It did, but partially because a lot of us, myself included, started to try to give advice about how to fix the problem.

His literal question was only "What are the sexual obligations, if any, of a husband or wife?" which, I think everyone agrees, are none. The secondary question, at least as I see it, was about how normal or not normal his situation and his feeling about it were. Anyway, I just find it interesting the way this ended up going.

I'd actually love to see a continuation of the ideas discussed here... "However, I've never been comfortable with the special status sex is granted relative to almost every other human interaction" in particular. But, I suppose askMeFi isn't really the right place for it... oh well.
posted by INTPLibrarian at 6:23 PM on March 9, 2006

Woah. If that "Anon's wife" stuff is for real then... hell, Anon. Shape the fuck up. 'kay? You're lucky she hasn't left your sorry ass already.
posted by Decani at 6:47 PM on March 9, 2006

Anon: after reading that you "simply will not look after the children or take them out of the house every once in a while to give [your wife] a break" --

If you want a solution to this problem, start by having her pick two or three nights a week that will be your nights for watching the kids. Whether she decides to go out or stay in on those nights, you watch the kids and do the whole list of things that have to be done for them.

As it is now, it doesn't sound like you deserve sex. Or kids.
posted by pracowity at 12:25 AM on March 10, 2006

Note to other couples as well: Don't have three kids in five years. That much work is pretty much guaranteed to sap every last bit of energy from you. Raising kids is not a walk in the park, and having to deal with three little ones... well, let's just say I'm in awe of people who can manage it without complaining.
posted by madman at 3:51 AM on March 10, 2006

I have to wonder if Anon's wife considered the fact that anyone who knew them very well at all could easily recognize them from the details she gives in her response.
posted by nanojath at 11:43 PM on March 10, 2006

Don't have three kids in five years. That much work is pretty much guaranteed to sap every last bit of energy from you.

Hear, hear.

scarabic makes a lot of sense on this thread - anon would be well-served to separate them out and read them all.

But anon, your wife is the main breadwinner, she cooks, she cleans, she looks after the kids all the time and you smoke dope in your basement and play music and then wonder why she doesn't want to make the beast with two backs at the end of the day? If I were you, I would be wondering why she doesn't put rat poison in my dinner.

Here's a suggestion - do a role-swap for a week. You do all the things that she does for 7 days and then see how horny you are. For parents of young children, the greatest aphrodisiac is sleep, trust me.

As far as your actual question goes - none, zip, nada. Your wife is not obligated to have sex with you at all and, unless you change your attitude to life, who could blame her if she never does again?
posted by dg at 8:58 PM on March 12, 2006

As an indirect step to improve your sex life, it would be useful to figure out how to make childcare less effort for you. Getting tips from a third party, for example a professional childrearer, might help you work through the most daunting parts, without the emotional stuff mixed in.
posted by By The Grace of God at 7:47 AM on March 13, 2006

I know I'm coming to this late, but I just have to say my piece.

Wow. Anon's spouse's post is the nightmare of contemporary motherhood. She's taken on the chief earner role, with the amount of wage work that implies, while at the same time being the sole (non-schooltime or daycare) caretaker of the children. And most of the traditional "housewife" roles, with the exception of some housecleaning.

I was once the both the breadwinner and the primary provider of childcare. My ex-husband didn't change a single diaper while our son was little; and while he would, when I was working full time, do the grocery shopping (as long as I provided him with instructions and a list of what to buy), he did so with resentment because it took time away from his work at his studio (he's an artist) where he spent all day being, you know, creative, while I worked in an office to support the family.

We stopped having sex completely the last three years we lived together, and it was intermittent for a long while before that. You want to know why? Read the preceding paragraph. I was too exhausted, anxious, and anguished over what had started out a good relationship and ended up a claustrophobic nightmare. We went to counselling, which he resisted bitterly.

Note I referred to him as my "ex-husband". I'm sure you can tell why.
posted by jokeefe at 4:39 PM on March 15, 2006