question about work property

March 7, 2006 9:44 AM

A friend was recently fired from a job and took an expensive piece of company equipment with her (laptop) and has not returned it. The boss is calling this grand theft and is planning on calling the cops. If the cops go over there what can they really do? Can the company sue her over the laptop?
posted by josher71 to work & money (52 comments total)

Obvious question: Why doesn't she just agree to return it?
posted by vacapinta at 9:46 AM on March 7, 2006

How about... I don't know... returning it?
posted by jerseygirl at 9:46 AM on March 7, 2006

Arrest her? Why is she keeping the laptop?
posted by reverendX at 9:46 AM on March 7, 2006

Is there any question that she has no rights to hang on to the laptop? What have you not mentioned here?
posted by mikel at 9:48 AM on March 7, 2006

Um, they can arrest her. Stealing stuff from your employer is just that, stealing. You can go to jail (like a friend of mine did).
posted by unSane at 9:48 AM on March 7, 2006

Also, if the laptop is over a certain $ amount (like $500 in some states), any charges could be felonies.
posted by reverendX at 9:48 AM on March 7, 2006

Sue? We're not talking a civil offense here. This is grand theft; it's a criminal matter.
posted by mr_roboto at 9:49 AM on March 7, 2006

So, the cops will show up with a search warrant most likely? She claims not to have the laptop.
posted by josher71 at 9:49 AM on March 7, 2006

josher, I can't help but feel you aren't telling us the whole story.
posted by jerseygirl at 9:50 AM on March 7, 2006

Well, yes. Why wouldn't they be able to? And why did your friend think that taking the laptop would be acceptable (or, barring that, unactionable)?
posted by Tuwa at 9:51 AM on March 7, 2006

Other then the fact that I'm pretty sure she still has the laptop and that I think she's bitter about being fired that is the whole story.
posted by josher71 at 9:51 AM on March 7, 2006

The boss is calling this grand theft
Cuz it is.
posted by selfmedicating at 9:52 AM on March 7, 2006

Theft. Agree to turn it over.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:52 AM on March 7, 2006

Tuwa,

She claims not to have it. She may not.
posted by josher71 at 9:53 AM on March 7, 2006

dear MeFi: is stealing stealing? Yes.
posted by BSummers at 9:53 AM on March 7, 2006

She has a lot more to lose (criminal record making it difficult for her to get another job) than her employer does (cost of a laptop? Pffft). As a friend, you might try to convince her of that.
posted by vacapinta at 9:54 AM on March 7, 2006

A friend was recently fired from a job and took an expensive piece of company equipment with her
...
She claims not to have the laptop.

Is the question "Will her false claim, to not have the laptop, work?" or is it "What can my friend do about the fact that she's falsely accused of stealing a laptop?" I imagine these have different answers.
posted by Aknaton at 9:55 AM on March 7, 2006

Hah. Uh, it's unlikely that she could just return it. The company would then have concrete proof and would then press charges.

If she doesn't have it, then she doesn't have it. this kind of thing was kind of common back in the Dot Com Collapse. Employee would get canned, laptop would vanish, but the now ex-employee didn't really have it because the low paid monkey in IT actually took it and sold it on craigslist.

If she doesn't have it, have her tell ex-boss to go screw himself and stop threatening her. File a harrassment report against the guy.
And didn't this company have a policy about collecting equipment before handing over the final paycheck?

Yeah, there's more to this story than you're telling us, isn't there? ;)
posted by drstein at 9:55 AM on March 7, 2006

Sorry, should have previewed this fast-developing story.
posted by Aknaton at 9:55 AM on March 7, 2006

Here in the UK you can be arrested for theft for doing just that.

It is not uncommon to have the receivers of companies (that have gone backrupt) chase ex-employees who have done a runner with the office equipment because they haven't been paid. Under UK law, you have no legal right to equipment just because you are owed money.

However, this is not the situation your friend is in.

If it is her laptop and she has just not returned it then she should agree to return it, apologise for any confusion and hope that they leave it at that.

However, if she took a laptop that she wasn't given to her then there is a greater chance that they may wish for her to be prosecuted. Only some serious sweet-talking may save her bacon.
posted by mr_silver at 9:55 AM on March 7, 2006

Is there any paperwork that she had to fill out in order to get the laptop into her possession? Some sort of contract saying what she can and cannot do with it? Otherwise, there's no real proof that she still has it (or not). Call the cops on it, have the entire thing investigated, and hopefully it won't turn into a big deal.
posted by itchie at 9:56 AM on March 7, 2006

You're skeptical yourself, which makes me skeptical. But let's assume for the sake of discussion that she admits taking it (as you said in the post), but somehow no longer has it. Let's give her the benefit of the doubt that it was unintentionally taken and then unintentionally misplaced. In that scenario, it's unlikely that she'd be charged with a crime, for lack of evidence. However, she would still be liable for the value of the computer, and the company could sue her to recover the cost.
posted by pardonyou? at 9:57 AM on March 7, 2006

Oh blast, I've now seen the comment about her claiming not to have it. It would have been helpful if that was in the original post.

If she really doesn't have the laptop, then she can ignore the bosses threats. She'll get a visit from the police but at the end of the day the burden of proof will be on the company to show that they know she has the laptop. It is not for her to prove her innocence.

Most companies though have a sign-out procedure where you hand over your equipment to someone and they sign a form to confirm that you have done so.

Unless of course, there is something more to this story?

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
posted by mr_silver at 10:00 AM on March 7, 2006

If she doesn't have it because she sold it, she may be liable for a lot more than the value of the computer - the data ON the thing would likely be considered extremely valuable by any court. In that case the physical computer itself is probably the least of her problems. If the company can make the case that she sold trade secrets and such? Whew, if it's a large company used to policing this kind of stuff among employees she's in a world of trouble.
posted by mikel at 10:02 AM on March 7, 2006

There is nothing more to this story that I know of. I don't actually work at the company so I admit my knowledge is limited.
posted by josher71 at 10:02 AM on March 7, 2006

What if she hides it in a place the cops can't find it? Can she actually be arrested if the stolen property is not found in her possession?

josher71, I don't know where you're located, but maybe you (or better yet, someone else, preferably unconnected to this friend of yours) could call the local police station (not 911), and propose a similar hypothetical question, "What if someone claims someone else stole a computer from them? What would you do, how would you investigate? If you didn't find the computer, then what?" and see what they say. It'll sound hinky and suspicious to them, because it's a hinky and suspicious story, but I have called the local Sheriff's office with "just curious, hypothetical" questions on a couple of occasions here, and they answered my questions to the best of their ability. And I have not received any police visits or been otherwise investigated as a result. To my knowledge.
posted by Gator at 10:04 AM on March 7, 2006

So, she has it, is saying she doesn't have it, there's concern about a search warrant, and from that, I'd venture to guess that she's thinking about hiding the laptop to bolster her "I don't have it" case.

Listen, be a good friend and tell her this isn't worth it. She's going to end up in trouble with the police, with a record and further, any future background checks are going to come up with a flag for theft/larceny/etc. This can cause a lot of problems for her as she tries to secure rentals, loans, future work, etc.

She may have a right to be bitter, but she's only causing herself detriment. Not only that, the work community (especially if she's in a specialized field) can be a small world. It's always best to not burn bridges and (besides cooking up a police record for yourself) make a bad name for yourself in the process.

OH, and whatever you do... DO NOT take possession of that laptop in any shape or form. You'll be in a heap of trouble yourself.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:08 AM on March 7, 2006

Stealing it is so not worth it. She's not even screwing the evil company, she's screwing some insurance company she's never heard of. And the poor slob at her old company who has to fill out the insurance paperwork. Ditto above on the trouble she could get in. I hope she returns it, claims it was all a misunderstanding, and moves on.
posted by selfmedicating at 10:11 AM on March 7, 2006

I might give the calling the police department idea a shot. Thanks!
posted by josher71 at 10:11 AM on March 7, 2006

Gator writes "What if she hides it in a place the cops can't find it? Can she actually be arrested if the stolen property is not found in her possession?"

Just like trying to prosecute someone for murder when there is no body, it is a lot harder to convict a stolen property case if you can't find the property or proof that it was transfered from the accused to someone else (something like a pawn ticket, yes criminals are often that stupid).
posted by Mitheral at 10:15 AM on March 7, 2006

I'll answer the question, "If the cops go over there, what can they really do?"

I've had search warrants served on me before, and honestly, they don't do much. They look around, they open your dresser, they go through your closet and cabinets. They turn on your electronics, including computers, and sometimes take them. They aren't going to open up holes in the ceiling or knock on the walls looking for hollow spots to hide things.

They will interrogate the hell out of you. They will walk you around and talk to you like you did it, they will make it sound like you are powerless, like it's only a matter of time before the object is located and that you might as well just show us where it's at. They'll bring up evidence that may or may not be true, just to scare you into showing them things.

It's not really like in the movies where they rip your house apart. So if she is going to hide it, don't put it in the house, and just stay cool. They'll hang around a while.
posted by dead_ at 10:22 AM on March 7, 2006

at my old company, we took the ORIGINAL cost to buy out a lease of a laptop out of a person's last paycheck if they kept it.

If they already got their last paycheck, it was taken out somehow through the tax system.

This always seemed better to me than calling the cops.
posted by k8t at 10:28 AM on March 7, 2006

Also, any legit company keeps serial numbers and all sorts of other codes on record for all assets it owns. And likely when it was handed to her, she had to sign some sort of form.

She should just give it back. She has totally f-ed herself out of a good reference... or even a neutral reference. Now she'll have this on her employee record.
posted by k8t at 10:34 AM on March 7, 2006

Your friend sounds like a real winner. Fired from her job, stealing thousands of dollars in computer equipement, about to lie to the police. If you want my advice, lose the friend.
posted by furtive at 10:44 AM on March 7, 2006

No company is going to give an employee an expensive piece of portable electronics without making it very clear that said electronics do NOT belong to the employee.

I'm sure, in addition, that she signed something when she got the computer that would make her liable for any damages to company property in her care.

Any company knows how to cover its ass in this rudimentary way. The case is open and shut. Your friend is an idiot for even TRYING to get away with this.
posted by elisabeth r at 11:09 AM on March 7, 2006

Don't be so sure that the employee would have signed a document saying they received it. I mean, I know the company should have them do that, but I don't think any of the sales guys in my company did. And we just let six of them go, and mailed out boxes with return postage for them to send the laptops back in.

Of course, we solved this particular scenario by making the return of their company-owned equipment a condition of their severance packages. But then, they were laid off, not fired.
posted by CrayDrygu at 11:15 AM on March 7, 2006

Isn't this thread evidence?

The original post mentions that Metafilter users josher71 knows someone who was fired and, as a result, took company property with her.
posted by emelenjr at 11:20 AM on March 7, 2006

elisabeth r: But, people get away with it all the time. It's very likely this place has no proof at all against her. Laptops go missing quite frequently.

Burden of proof lies on the company. They may very well decide that it's not worth it financially to push the issue, and will just write it off.

I have never signed *anything* like what you decribed, and I've had many many jobs where I was issued a laptop.
posted by drstein at 11:46 AM on March 7, 2006

Ack. The company will file a report with the police dept., the laptops id number will go into a missing property report, and the laptop will be "hot". Like, in the movies. So if she tries to get it repaired, or gets busted for something in the future, or really if a cop ever gets a chance to check the id number on the laptop, she'll be busted.

PLUS stealing is wrong. It sets you on a path of darkness. Much better to earn some money and buy a laptop.

In fact, if you really wanted to help your friend, you'd go out and buy her a laptop.
Then sell all of your possessions, give all of your possessions to the poor and follow Jesus.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 11:52 AM on March 7, 2006

er. the money from your possessions. give that to the poor.

man. f'ing tuesday.

time for a drink.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 11:53 AM on March 7, 2006

elisabeth r writes "I'm sure, in addition, that she signed something when she got the computer that would make her liable for any damages to company property in her care. "

This varies and around here anyways the worst they can do to you if you misplace or damage a piece of equipment is fire you.

For example a relative drives a truck that is worth somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of a million dollars. If he drops it off a cliff they can fire him but they can't garnishee his wages for the rest of his life (assuming he didn't steal it or something).
posted by Mitheral at 12:29 PM on March 7, 2006

I work in an IT department, and we've had a few laid off employees who refused to return their laptops. In all cases, the (huge) legal team was called, and in all cases, the laptop showed up really soon afterwards. I don't know what they said, but it seems to have worked...

We also make DAMN sure to have each employee sign a form for all equipment that states it must be returned (and this return has to be signed off on by the appropriate folks) before they leave, or they are liable.
posted by sluggo at 12:51 PM on March 7, 2006

Ah, hypotheticals. Maybe she sold the laptop on Ebay..
posted by sagwalla at 12:59 PM on March 7, 2006

My company deals with this kind of problem by sending the person who mis holding valuable company property a W2 for the value of the item(s) being held. This is very effective and items are returned quickly
posted by Raybun at 1:18 PM on March 7, 2006

Airinxt, is that you?

Well, there are two possibilities as I see it. Either she's scum, which previous MeFites have already discussed, or she's not. My father ran the IT department for a company that slowly pissed itself away (though he wasn't trained or paid for it, really), and when they folded, they demanded back computers that had been given to him for his job but were five to ten years obsolete (386 Thinkpads in 2000, that sort of thing), threatening to charge him for the full price of the laptops at purchase (several thousand dollars) if he didn't return them. At the time, I think that the computers had probably been cycled through our family or discarded or given to trappist monks or something, but I believe he simply offered to replace them with identical models from eBay, which would have cost him, like, $10 per, as they were barely useful as doorstops. While they balked at that, I think the ultimate outcome was that the company went under and he never had to give anything back. The whole thing was a rather bizare death spasm from a company mismanaged to the point of disintigration. If your friend's situation is like that (and I've seen similar things happen once or twice more, where a failing company is desperate for any assets, no matter how crummy), she may simply be able to outwait them. Much of the advice kinda depends on the particulars of the situation, however.
posted by klangklangston at 2:34 PM on March 7, 2006

Off-topic, but a manager at my old workplace was turfed out, and I rang his secretary to ask what was happening to his shiny Mac laptop, figuring it might be going spare.

She told me confidentially that when executives left the company, there was a tacit agreement that they could take their laptop with them, whereas a mere worker like me had to hand it back.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 4:35 PM on March 7, 2006

In my old company, when a laid off worker claimed his laptop was wink, wink, nudge, nudge, stolen, the company required that he file a police report. The laptop was promptly discovered and returned. Many companies will consider it theft. She should get it from wherever it is, and quietly return it. She can ask someone else, like you, to drop it off if she's embarassed.

If the company is screwing with her final pay, she can agree to deliver the laptop on receipt of her fnal check, to include accrued vacation. She's lost them as a good reference; she needs to keep this from turning into a permanent awful reference and criminal charges. The laptop is in no way worth it.
posted by theora55 at 7:30 PM on March 7, 2006

Is it possible that she took it accidentally, then, when she realized that she had and doing so was a bad idea, she realized she'd already painted herself into a corner? So, now she's just playing dumb about it?

Some thoughts

* do they have security cameras? if so and she was the last to be seen with it, then she's probably busted even without the laptop
* if she's the last one seen with the laptop by other employees, she's probably busted
* if she has it, probably the best bet is for her to call the ex-boss and explain that she painted herself into a corner originally and then panicked, but now she realizes she should give it back.
* if she has it and refuses to give it back, (besides being wrong and dumb) she had best be getting rid of it. And I don't mean selling it. That would be even worse.

If I were her boss, I'd be pretty steamed at this point. The only story that I'd buy is something very close to this: I didn't realize I had it and was not thinking clearly when I said I didn't have it. When I realized I had it, I'd already painted myself into a corner. However, after calming down I now see that the best thing is to just give it back and hope you understand that I wasn't trying to steal it, but that I just panicked.

That story is likely to take the heat off, but if it doesn't, it's a story that's most likely to get leniency in court. I'm assuming that she may already be in hot water legally and this would go a long way to turning grand theft into a mostly-honest mistake.

BTW, why was she fired?
posted by mumeishi at 6:05 AM on March 8, 2006

If that laptop has a network card, it has an IP address in it.

Internet use -> IP log = evidence for prosecution.
posted by lalochezia at 9:51 PM on March 8, 2006

If they got it back, would they really bother prosecuting her? I doubt it. Tell her to give it back and stop being stupid.
posted by Alt F4 at 3:37 AM on March 11, 2006

lalochezia writes "If that laptop has a network card, it has an IP address in it."

I think your talking about a MAC address. They aren't tranmitted past the local loop so if she is using a router or the ISP doesn't keep logs of MAC - IP mappings this is pretty useless.

MACs are also easily changed.
posted by Mitheral at 6:42 AM on March 11, 2006

So, what happened? Anything?
posted by Gator at 1:22 PM on March 22, 2006