Tired of being the DUFF, or, how to be content as a 4
October 26, 2019 6:58 AM Subscribe
[CW : body image/beauty standards/sexism]
For most of my life I (a cis woman) have consistently been the least conventionally attractive member of any friend group I'm a member of. I'm tired of being upset about it, but also feel like calmly accepting it makes me vulnerable to manipulation, mockery, and/or pity. How can I keep my friends without looking like a dupe who doesn't realize she's the DUFF?
This isn't so much a cri de coeur as a genuine question from a very confused and exhausted feminist: how can I skillfully handle the reality that 90% of people will never value me as much as they do my hot friends?
I mean, no one has ever called me a DUFF to my face. But it's pretty obvious that's how I'm viewed in most situations: a round of shots from the guys across the bar, conspicuously one glass short; only being approached/danced with/complimented when I'm alone or the youngest (or only) woman in a group; pitying, over-the-top compliments from said hot friends, etc . Over the years I have had to stop interacting with a few girls/women who very obviously only wanted to hang out because they knew I would not be "competition" in bars and clubs--while still being interesting enough, I guess, to talk to/party with. In high school it was made very clear to me however, that being "interesting", but not hot, will lead to intense dislike by most straight men and a good chunk of women. This has held true in the intervening 15 years.
I'm not looking for reassurance that I'm probably fine-looking or will Find Love if I just wear bright lipstick or whatever. I don't think I'm a monster, but I'm short and unfortunately proportioned (regardless of my fitness level or weight, which have varied) with large teeth and an irregular face shape and un-amazing hair. I think one can be clear-eyed about the standards and prejudices of patriarchal society, and their consequences, without accepting them as valid. I'm not gonna make the cut. It's life, but it's also going to continue to significantly damage my professional advancement and social life for the next 4 or 5 decades, and it makes me panicky and furious. (I live in a culture which manages to be even more obsessed with feminine beauty and thinness than the US, where I grew up.)
"Don't spend time with people who make you feel bad/insecure/jealous" is obvious advice, but I don't believe the solution is to act like those friends ("friends") I had to dump, only socializing with women I perceive as less attractive than myself. That's pathetic, not to mention cruel and disrespectful. I like my friends, and they treat me with respect and kindness. I'm not prepared to jettison them because their cheekbones are better than mine, and I believe that would show an even greater lack of self-respect than trying to pretend we're all the same. And yet.
I am very seriously contemplating leaving my partner over this, because I'm coming to the horrific realization that men have, in hindsight, only been interested in me sexually or romantically for very bad reasons: I seemed like I must be "easy" (not actually true) because I must have no other prospects; I seemed easy to abuse (also not very true); I seemed "safe" because no other men would try to "steal" me and/or I must be a virgin (nope). My current partner is a nice guy and I love him, but he's pretty conventionally attractive and it therefore seems unlikely he's with me for the right reasons. Even if he is, someday he's going to unceremoniously leave me when he realizes he can do better. Very possibly with one of my much more attractive friends. I'd rather spare myself the humiliation and leave now.
As young girls we're not taught how to live as un-beautiful women; we're taught to pour our souls (and our cash) into attaining beauty. How do I learn to live as a plain-ass 30something (then 40something, then 50something) woman without losing my self-respect, deluding myself, or sitting alone in my apartment every weekend?
PS : I know cosmetic surgery can be a tool for this sort of problem and if I had the cash I'd probably do it. Hoewever financially that's not on cards right now.
This isn't so much a cri de coeur as a genuine question from a very confused and exhausted feminist: how can I skillfully handle the reality that 90% of people will never value me as much as they do my hot friends?
I mean, no one has ever called me a DUFF to my face. But it's pretty obvious that's how I'm viewed in most situations: a round of shots from the guys across the bar, conspicuously one glass short; only being approached/danced with/complimented when I'm alone or the youngest (or only) woman in a group; pitying, over-the-top compliments from said hot friends, etc . Over the years I have had to stop interacting with a few girls/women who very obviously only wanted to hang out because they knew I would not be "competition" in bars and clubs--while still being interesting enough, I guess, to talk to/party with. In high school it was made very clear to me however, that being "interesting", but not hot, will lead to intense dislike by most straight men and a good chunk of women. This has held true in the intervening 15 years.
I'm not looking for reassurance that I'm probably fine-looking or will Find Love if I just wear bright lipstick or whatever. I don't think I'm a monster, but I'm short and unfortunately proportioned (regardless of my fitness level or weight, which have varied) with large teeth and an irregular face shape and un-amazing hair. I think one can be clear-eyed about the standards and prejudices of patriarchal society, and their consequences, without accepting them as valid. I'm not gonna make the cut. It's life, but it's also going to continue to significantly damage my professional advancement and social life for the next 4 or 5 decades, and it makes me panicky and furious. (I live in a culture which manages to be even more obsessed with feminine beauty and thinness than the US, where I grew up.)
"Don't spend time with people who make you feel bad/insecure/jealous" is obvious advice, but I don't believe the solution is to act like those friends ("friends") I had to dump, only socializing with women I perceive as less attractive than myself. That's pathetic, not to mention cruel and disrespectful. I like my friends, and they treat me with respect and kindness. I'm not prepared to jettison them because their cheekbones are better than mine, and I believe that would show an even greater lack of self-respect than trying to pretend we're all the same. And yet.
I am very seriously contemplating leaving my partner over this, because I'm coming to the horrific realization that men have, in hindsight, only been interested in me sexually or romantically for very bad reasons: I seemed like I must be "easy" (not actually true) because I must have no other prospects; I seemed easy to abuse (also not very true); I seemed "safe" because no other men would try to "steal" me and/or I must be a virgin (nope). My current partner is a nice guy and I love him, but he's pretty conventionally attractive and it therefore seems unlikely he's with me for the right reasons. Even if he is, someday he's going to unceremoniously leave me when he realizes he can do better. Very possibly with one of my much more attractive friends. I'd rather spare myself the humiliation and leave now.
As young girls we're not taught how to live as un-beautiful women; we're taught to pour our souls (and our cash) into attaining beauty. How do I learn to live as a plain-ass 30something (then 40something, then 50something) woman without losing my self-respect, deluding myself, or sitting alone in my apartment every weekend?
PS : I know cosmetic surgery can be a tool for this sort of problem and if I had the cash I'd probably do it. Hoewever financially that's not on cards right now.
You need to print out this question and take it to a therapist. That is how.
Much of what you wrote here comes across as really distorted thinking and I'm concerned about you; regardless of your looks, you deserve to treat yourself as a person with inherent value.
posted by blnkfrnk at 7:10 AM on October 26, 2019 [52 favorites]
Much of what you wrote here comes across as really distorted thinking and I'm concerned about you; regardless of your looks, you deserve to treat yourself as a person with inherent value.
posted by blnkfrnk at 7:10 AM on October 26, 2019 [52 favorites]
Hey, yeah, this reads to me like you’re in a pretty significant emotional health crisis. I want to echo that I think you should be talking through this with a therapist.
posted by bluedaisy at 7:28 AM on October 26, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 7:28 AM on October 26, 2019 [13 favorites]
I was with you until you got to the part where you're considering leaving your partner because you're sure he's going to leave you first... look. I agree with the other posters that *regardless of what you actually look like*, that is distorted thinking, which is now threatening to have serious ramifications on your life, and therapy can probably help.
But also, on the less serious side: take the occasional peek at celebrity magazines and note how the most beautiful, glamorous people in the world also experience relationships ending, often in unpleasant ways. That's not a function of being ugly. That's a function of being human in an imperfect world.
And by the way, everyone ages. The people who enjoyed the attention and advantages that accrued to them naturally as beautiful young people, feel it that much worse when they become invisible in their 40s.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:35 AM on October 26, 2019 [59 favorites]
But also, on the less serious side: take the occasional peek at celebrity magazines and note how the most beautiful, glamorous people in the world also experience relationships ending, often in unpleasant ways. That's not a function of being ugly. That's a function of being human in an imperfect world.
And by the way, everyone ages. The people who enjoyed the attention and advantages that accrued to them naturally as beautiful young people, feel it that much worse when they become invisible in their 40s.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:35 AM on October 26, 2019 [59 favorites]
I agree with everyone upthread.
Please don't leave a partner who you love over some notion that he's eventually going to realize that you're unlovable. That is not healthy thinking, and almost certainly not true.
I'm sorry that you're going through this. And I appreciate the courage that it takes to come out and ask for help with a problem like this, even over the relative anonymity of the internet.
But you need help from someone who can help you understand the distortions and inaccuracies in your current thinking (i.e., a therapist). Much of what you say is eminently valid - society (and the people who live in it) *do* have fucked-up ideas and behaviors around physical attractiveness. But it sounds like your (perfectly understandable) anxieties around that have let you to some unhelpful and incorrect ideas of your own.
Good luck. I know that this is easier said than done, but please try to be kinder to yourself.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:43 AM on October 26, 2019 [15 favorites]
Please don't leave a partner who you love over some notion that he's eventually going to realize that you're unlovable. That is not healthy thinking, and almost certainly not true.
I'm sorry that you're going through this. And I appreciate the courage that it takes to come out and ask for help with a problem like this, even over the relative anonymity of the internet.
But you need help from someone who can help you understand the distortions and inaccuracies in your current thinking (i.e., a therapist). Much of what you say is eminently valid - society (and the people who live in it) *do* have fucked-up ideas and behaviors around physical attractiveness. But it sounds like your (perfectly understandable) anxieties around that have let you to some unhelpful and incorrect ideas of your own.
Good luck. I know that this is easier said than done, but please try to be kinder to yourself.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:43 AM on October 26, 2019 [15 favorites]
It might also help to put yourself in situations where interactions aren't based on superficial. Stop it with the bars and clubs, is what I'm saying. Choose activities where your better qualities have a chance to shine, instead of jumping right into the drunken peacock lek, and you'll probably find you feel better about yourself.
posted by Freyja at 7:53 AM on October 26, 2019 [49 favorites]
posted by Freyja at 7:53 AM on October 26, 2019 [49 favorites]
Sorry to be yet another person focusing on the partner angle, but please, don't talk yourself into breaking up with him if you love him and it's a safe, stable relationship apart from your worries. I mean, does your partner abuse you? Does he not try to please you physically/sexually? Does it really seem like you're only there to tend to his life in some regard, rather than because he truly loves and cherishes you? If so, by all means, break up with him. But if all you're looking at is a bunch of hypotheticals based on society at large, then this isn't the thing to break up over. He's an individual just like you, and made his own choice to be with you for his own reasons. You didn't enter into a relationship with him just because he's so conventionally attractive, right? If he worried that one day he'll lose his good looks/high social status and you'd break up with him over it, he'd be wrong, correct? Unless you're seeing actual warning signs or experiencing some kind of abuse, why not give him the same benefit of the doubt you'd want him to grant you? If you can let it, a good loving relationship could actually be part of the very balm against societal injustices that you're looking for.
posted by teremala at 7:58 AM on October 26, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by teremala at 7:58 AM on October 26, 2019 [12 favorites]
Hate to be all "and another thing" but this Ask just really got to me. It sounds like you're still young, and you fully assimilated this high school idea that nobody likes an interesting woman. The DUFF, I mean really... That's no way to go through life, measuring yourself based on a shitty teen movie. And it's also untrue, and I think you're at the point in your life now where interesting starts winning. Don't waste your time and sabotage yourself and your relationships just because randos in clubs won't buy you shots. Those things don't matter after your twenties, but that bitterness you feel towards yourself and your "hot friends" can stick around forever like a bad smell. Get a head start on a more fulfilling adulthood by becoming more interesting and interested in things beyond shallow popularity contest, and finding better things to do with your friends and most importantly your partner than evaluating other people's physical attractiveness.
posted by Freyja at 8:17 AM on October 26, 2019 [41 favorites]
posted by Freyja at 8:17 AM on October 26, 2019 [41 favorites]
I want to share an alternate possible reality with you. I am in my mid-thirties and spend much of my time with a stable friend group that definitely includes people of varying levels of attractiveness. And to be honest we don’t think about it much. Some people care more about their appearance and some less. Being interesting actually *is* more important, and everyone has their own good qualities that others appreciate (being funny, helpful, good cook, etc).
I am not sure from reading this question if the people around you are very appearance-focused, and you are responding to that pressure, or if you are putting that pressure on yourself.
Regardless I agree that talking to a therapist is a really important step, to let go of some of these insecurities and learn to value yourself.
posted by mai at 8:27 AM on October 26, 2019 [11 favorites]
I am not sure from reading this question if the people around you are very appearance-focused, and you are responding to that pressure, or if you are putting that pressure on yourself.
Regardless I agree that talking to a therapist is a really important step, to let go of some of these insecurities and learn to value yourself.
posted by mai at 8:27 AM on October 26, 2019 [11 favorites]
In the short term, I wonder if you could try steering your friend group activities toward places you feel more confident. Like instead of going to a bar where you'll feel on display and judged, do an activity together like taking a community art class, volunteering, nature walking, etc.
posted by esker at 8:27 AM on October 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by esker at 8:27 AM on October 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
I hate this movie trailer even if at the end the Duff girl (such a dumb term) realizes that she's wonderful just the way she is and doesn't need to conform to conventional beauty standards and the guy ends up wanting her, blah, blah, blah. Are they still making movies like this? And the "hot mean girl" and the "jerky jock guy" -- these are such caricatures and isn't how real life is. And the Duff girl happens to be conventionally attractive! It's so stupid and borderline insulting and seems to be intended for teenagers who think "hotness" matters for something real and good.
If you're considering leaving your partner over your insecurities about your appearance I would suggest to seek help from a therapist because you aren't thinking rationally. You're essentially saying your partner has ulterior motives and is with you for reasons other than genuine love and affection.
I grew up in a home where physical beauty was valued and there have been many times when I wanted to be considered attractive because I thought it added some value to me as a person. I am the chubby friend alongside the beautiful friends. It doesn't mean anything. I still found love as they did. And this whole idea of hotness is insulting and doesn't last. Being "hot" is usually associated with youth and the way you style yourself and the shape of the body. I could have been "hot" but I chose to eat too much McDonalds as a teen and young person because I was stuffing my feelings with food. Am I more valuable because a stranger eyes me and considers me "hot"? Am I less valuable because I can't wear a bikini? (I can of course but don't.) In the last year I went through a short phase of wanting to be considered pretty and I think I'm finally at a place where I can let that go. I think it was a combination of hormones (one last effort to further the species) and insecurity that my looks were fading. Beauty fades. My face is my face and my body is my body and there are things I can do about it but they are limited.
I volunteer alongside teenage girls and boys and they are lovely and wonderful and when I see some of these girls with obvious anxiety and preoccupation over their appearance I want to say it's okay, you could be astronauts instead of worrying about how you look on Instagram. I want to say I know it's hard and there is a pressure but don't waste your time on this crap because it doesn't mean a thing. What is truly attractive is intelligence and curiosity and decency and kindness and not worrying if someone considers you fuckable, or if you're prettier than the next girl because there will always be a prettier girl and that's life and it's better not to waste time worrying about it because that desperation is unattractive. A confidence and acceptance of who you are is always beautiful.
posted by loveandhappiness at 8:32 AM on October 26, 2019 [16 favorites]
If you're considering leaving your partner over your insecurities about your appearance I would suggest to seek help from a therapist because you aren't thinking rationally. You're essentially saying your partner has ulterior motives and is with you for reasons other than genuine love and affection.
I grew up in a home where physical beauty was valued and there have been many times when I wanted to be considered attractive because I thought it added some value to me as a person. I am the chubby friend alongside the beautiful friends. It doesn't mean anything. I still found love as they did. And this whole idea of hotness is insulting and doesn't last. Being "hot" is usually associated with youth and the way you style yourself and the shape of the body. I could have been "hot" but I chose to eat too much McDonalds as a teen and young person because I was stuffing my feelings with food. Am I more valuable because a stranger eyes me and considers me "hot"? Am I less valuable because I can't wear a bikini? (I can of course but don't.) In the last year I went through a short phase of wanting to be considered pretty and I think I'm finally at a place where I can let that go. I think it was a combination of hormones (one last effort to further the species) and insecurity that my looks were fading. Beauty fades. My face is my face and my body is my body and there are things I can do about it but they are limited.
I volunteer alongside teenage girls and boys and they are lovely and wonderful and when I see some of these girls with obvious anxiety and preoccupation over their appearance I want to say it's okay, you could be astronauts instead of worrying about how you look on Instagram. I want to say I know it's hard and there is a pressure but don't waste your time on this crap because it doesn't mean a thing. What is truly attractive is intelligence and curiosity and decency and kindness and not worrying if someone considers you fuckable, or if you're prettier than the next girl because there will always be a prettier girl and that's life and it's better not to waste time worrying about it because that desperation is unattractive. A confidence and acceptance of who you are is always beautiful.
posted by loveandhappiness at 8:32 AM on October 26, 2019 [16 favorites]
You may benefit from reading a book written by Carly Findlay, an ‘appearance activist' with a skin condition that makes her appear bright red, as though sunburned.
She writes about how strangers have been rude to her because of her skin condition, but about how it hasn't stopped her having close friends who love her deeply, and community.
"In fairy tales, the characters who look different are often cast as villains or monsters. It's only when they shed their unconventional skin that they are seen as 'good' or less frightening. There are very few stories where the character that looks different is the hero of the story...I've been the hero of my story - telling it on my own terms and proud about my facial difference and disability."
posted by Murderbot at 8:42 AM on October 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
She writes about how strangers have been rude to her because of her skin condition, but about how it hasn't stopped her having close friends who love her deeply, and community.
"In fairy tales, the characters who look different are often cast as villains or monsters. It's only when they shed their unconventional skin that they are seen as 'good' or less frightening. There are very few stories where the character that looks different is the hero of the story...I've been the hero of my story - telling it on my own terms and proud about my facial difference and disability."
posted by Murderbot at 8:42 AM on October 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
Nthing therapy.
Now, you may have a particularly shallow group of friends and your assessment of how they value people could be correct, but are you familiar with 'confirmation bias'? It's where you have an idea about something and you view the world only through that lens and it seems real, even when it's not.
Valuing people and yourself solely based on attractiveness is not healthy or, in my experience, all that normal after high school. Therapy can help you with this.
Dont sabotage your relationship if your partner loves you and treats you well. If he doesnt (is he abusing you? It is unclear from your question), dmfta.
Learning to move past these unhealthy views can be challenging, but it is really crucial for your continued mental health.
posted by ananci at 8:57 AM on October 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
Now, you may have a particularly shallow group of friends and your assessment of how they value people could be correct, but are you familiar with 'confirmation bias'? It's where you have an idea about something and you view the world only through that lens and it seems real, even when it's not.
Valuing people and yourself solely based on attractiveness is not healthy or, in my experience, all that normal after high school. Therapy can help you with this.
Dont sabotage your relationship if your partner loves you and treats you well. If he doesnt (is he abusing you? It is unclear from your question), dmfta.
Learning to move past these unhealthy views can be challenging, but it is really crucial for your continued mental health.
posted by ananci at 8:57 AM on October 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's life, but it's also going to continue to significantly damage my professional advancement and social life for the next 4 or 5 decades, and it makes me panicky and furious.
I'm short and unfortunately proportioned (regardless of my fitness level or weight, which have varied) with large teeth and an irregular face shape and un-amazing hair.
Everything upthread, but also just wanted to say your description of yourself is uncannily like that of the 60-something CEO of my current organisation. She is successful, interesting, funny, warm, happily married and loved by everyone, and by all accounts has been for a long time. Just wanted to point that out so that you know your very definitely-held opinions are based on negative cognitions and not fact. Btw, looks are relative. There will always be someone more pretty than you, there will always be someone less pretty, and the arbiters of these states are entirely subjective. And PS please don’t talk to and about yourself in a way that you wouldn’t tolerate someone talking to your best friend. If someone called your friend a Duff you’d rightly kick their ass for being an asshole. Quit being an asshole to yourself.
posted by billiebee at 9:16 AM on October 26, 2019 [17 favorites]
I'm short and unfortunately proportioned (regardless of my fitness level or weight, which have varied) with large teeth and an irregular face shape and un-amazing hair.
Everything upthread, but also just wanted to say your description of yourself is uncannily like that of the 60-something CEO of my current organisation. She is successful, interesting, funny, warm, happily married and loved by everyone, and by all accounts has been for a long time. Just wanted to point that out so that you know your very definitely-held opinions are based on negative cognitions and not fact. Btw, looks are relative. There will always be someone more pretty than you, there will always be someone less pretty, and the arbiters of these states are entirely subjective. And PS please don’t talk to and about yourself in a way that you wouldn’t tolerate someone talking to your best friend. If someone called your friend a Duff you’d rightly kick their ass for being an asshole. Quit being an asshole to yourself.
posted by billiebee at 9:16 AM on October 26, 2019 [17 favorites]
Im going to answer your first question because enough people have responded to the partner part.
I’m confused by the friend part. If your “friends” have been keeping you around as a DUFF they are assholes and should be dropped. I think you realize this. But I’m confused by the follow up part where you vaguely seem to imply that to have any friends you need to find ones “uglier” than yourself. You need to reframe the metrics for a good friend. A good friend is there for you in your hour of need, fun to hang out with, understands your thoughts and needs, helps you back up when you fall, etc. Beauty only matters if beauty matters to you. If that’s not part of your metric than it’s unimportant.
Are there many people who may second guess you at first because of how you look? Probably. Beauty privilege, especially for women is an issue. However I’d encourage you, as other have done, to seek out opportunités where beauty isn’t the goal. Trivia teams, seeing movies, book clubs, hiking groups, fitness classes, reading at home in an armchair with a good cup of tea, walking a dog. None of those require beauty and in fact it would be weird to evaluate you on beauty in any of those instances!
posted by raccoon409 at 9:17 AM on October 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
I’m confused by the friend part. If your “friends” have been keeping you around as a DUFF they are assholes and should be dropped. I think you realize this. But I’m confused by the follow up part where you vaguely seem to imply that to have any friends you need to find ones “uglier” than yourself. You need to reframe the metrics for a good friend. A good friend is there for you in your hour of need, fun to hang out with, understands your thoughts and needs, helps you back up when you fall, etc. Beauty only matters if beauty matters to you. If that’s not part of your metric than it’s unimportant.
Are there many people who may second guess you at first because of how you look? Probably. Beauty privilege, especially for women is an issue. However I’d encourage you, as other have done, to seek out opportunités where beauty isn’t the goal. Trivia teams, seeing movies, book clubs, hiking groups, fitness classes, reading at home in an armchair with a good cup of tea, walking a dog. None of those require beauty and in fact it would be weird to evaluate you on beauty in any of those instances!
posted by raccoon409 at 9:17 AM on October 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
Don't go on the movie. The book is a lot better than the movie. And hey, the guy who *calls her* a DUFF obviously likes her enough to be with her. And in the book, they have an FWB relationship and get very close even if he claimed to find her unattractive by comparison to her "hot" friends. The DUFF, book version, actually makes the totally insulting beginning of it work into a relationship you root for. Go figure.
Anyway, with regards to your SO: if he could or wanted to find someone "hotter," sure, he could. But he's choosing to be with you, eh? I probably qualify as "hotter" than you (though really, I'm around a 5/6 so it's not by much) and I haven't had a boyfriend in over a decade and nobody has wanted me. I'm probably a DUFF except I don't run with a pack of "hot" female friends at bars. You literally are doing better than I am at this. We all know some really unattractive folks who have managed to find true love. It can and does happen, because the looks aren't everything.
I really want to beg you not to preemptively dump a guy just because you think some day he'll wake up, realize you're an uggo and wander off with the first hottie he sees. Do not do this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:38 AM on October 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
Anyway, with regards to your SO: if he could or wanted to find someone "hotter," sure, he could. But he's choosing to be with you, eh? I probably qualify as "hotter" than you (though really, I'm around a 5/6 so it's not by much) and I haven't had a boyfriend in over a decade and nobody has wanted me. I'm probably a DUFF except I don't run with a pack of "hot" female friends at bars. You literally are doing better than I am at this. We all know some really unattractive folks who have managed to find true love. It can and does happen, because the looks aren't everything.
I really want to beg you not to preemptively dump a guy just because you think some day he'll wake up, realize you're an uggo and wander off with the first hottie he sees. Do not do this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:38 AM on October 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
I’m glad everyone has been recommending therapy and I agree with that. Please find someone to talk to.
I’d also like to point out that while the patriarchy does value and reward good looks, and it can be useful to (healthfully) acknowledge that, it is not a binary. It’s not that black and white. The hottest person doesn’t always get the promotion or the husband or the drinks at a bar. Ugly people get things over hot people all the time. Bad things happen to attractive people (see above re:celebrity breakups). Being attractive can help sometimes, can give you a leg up, but very rarely is it the only thing that matters. And especially with friends, real friends truly love you for you, they find you beautiful no matter what the world thinks of you, and their comments are not pittying. They are true. Same for your partner.
Please find a therapist to work through this with!
posted by sillysally at 9:43 AM on October 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
I’d also like to point out that while the patriarchy does value and reward good looks, and it can be useful to (healthfully) acknowledge that, it is not a binary. It’s not that black and white. The hottest person doesn’t always get the promotion or the husband or the drinks at a bar. Ugly people get things over hot people all the time. Bad things happen to attractive people (see above re:celebrity breakups). Being attractive can help sometimes, can give you a leg up, but very rarely is it the only thing that matters. And especially with friends, real friends truly love you for you, they find you beautiful no matter what the world thinks of you, and their comments are not pittying. They are true. Same for your partner.
Please find a therapist to work through this with!
posted by sillysally at 9:43 AM on October 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
I agree with everything above about addressing the self-destructive and distorted thinking behind this, and those points have already been made very well by others.
On your immediate question, though, I wanted to add that most of the women I know, including me, have felt like this to some degree at one time or another. Those feelings seem to strike everyone, even those whose appearances conform closely to what is valued in their culture. Looks are a commodity in capitalist societies, and like any commodity, the value of a particular example can move up or down, depending on a whole bunch of factors that have nothing to do with the objective qualities of the "item." And, being "rich" in one way or another brings a certain amount of power, which others might want to take away or limit. Sometimes, when I'm feeling bad about something, it helps me to ask who is benefiting from my feeling that way. The answer might surprise you.
You might also take some comfort in the idea of "commercial attractiveness," vs other kinds. Some people look a certain way and can parlay that into various things in life, such as free shots in bars, depending on the "market." But think of all the things that are important/valuable/worthwhile that nobody is willing to pay for. They are no less wonderful, beautiful, or needed, and in fact, they might be more so.
posted by rpfields at 9:57 AM on October 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
On your immediate question, though, I wanted to add that most of the women I know, including me, have felt like this to some degree at one time or another. Those feelings seem to strike everyone, even those whose appearances conform closely to what is valued in their culture. Looks are a commodity in capitalist societies, and like any commodity, the value of a particular example can move up or down, depending on a whole bunch of factors that have nothing to do with the objective qualities of the "item." And, being "rich" in one way or another brings a certain amount of power, which others might want to take away or limit. Sometimes, when I'm feeling bad about something, it helps me to ask who is benefiting from my feeling that way. The answer might surprise you.
You might also take some comfort in the idea of "commercial attractiveness," vs other kinds. Some people look a certain way and can parlay that into various things in life, such as free shots in bars, depending on the "market." But think of all the things that are important/valuable/worthwhile that nobody is willing to pay for. They are no less wonderful, beautiful, or needed, and in fact, they might be more so.
posted by rpfields at 9:57 AM on October 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
I don't know how old you are or what your life experiences have been (or those of your friends).
I just want to share (as a fellow DUFF) that fifteen years post college friends and I have seen each other through marriages, divorces, babies, big promotions, job losses, the death of parents, serious illness (acute and chronic, mental and physical), big physical triumphs, and also the times where everything is kind of boring and slow.
A big shift happens in life in your 30s and 40s, I think. A series of momentous events and also terrible tragedies start stacking up. I'm not going to deny that are patriarchal society exists, but I am telling you that you can get a leg up on it by focusing NOW on what all your friends will be focusing on later: Are you there for your friends for the big stuff? Are they there for you? Is your partner there for you and vice versus?
As I've aged, I have had less time to think about how I look and compare myself to others and having less time for this definitely helps. But it's more than that. I simply do not care anymore, because too much intense stuff is happening all the time.
Focusing on my looks and comparing myself to others was a way for me to put up a barrier to intimacy. I never let anyone really know me for a big part of my 20s. I was worried that I would be rejected because of my looks, but really, I was worried that I was going to be rejected because of who I was.
What I wish I had known is that intimacy derives from a set of practices, not having the "right" personality or looks. I think there are probably lots of paths to intimacy, but the ones I know involve spending lots of time with loved ones, being brave with sharing your real thoughts and feelings with people you trust, and keeping your word/being trustworthy with honoring promises and commitments.
I realize this goes far afield from your question, but I hope it helps. I wish you all the best.
posted by CMcG at 10:02 AM on October 26, 2019 [38 favorites]
I just want to share (as a fellow DUFF) that fifteen years post college friends and I have seen each other through marriages, divorces, babies, big promotions, job losses, the death of parents, serious illness (acute and chronic, mental and physical), big physical triumphs, and also the times where everything is kind of boring and slow.
A big shift happens in life in your 30s and 40s, I think. A series of momentous events and also terrible tragedies start stacking up. I'm not going to deny that are patriarchal society exists, but I am telling you that you can get a leg up on it by focusing NOW on what all your friends will be focusing on later: Are you there for your friends for the big stuff? Are they there for you? Is your partner there for you and vice versus?
As I've aged, I have had less time to think about how I look and compare myself to others and having less time for this definitely helps. But it's more than that. I simply do not care anymore, because too much intense stuff is happening all the time.
Focusing on my looks and comparing myself to others was a way for me to put up a barrier to intimacy. I never let anyone really know me for a big part of my 20s. I was worried that I would be rejected because of my looks, but really, I was worried that I was going to be rejected because of who I was.
What I wish I had known is that intimacy derives from a set of practices, not having the "right" personality or looks. I think there are probably lots of paths to intimacy, but the ones I know involve spending lots of time with loved ones, being brave with sharing your real thoughts and feelings with people you trust, and keeping your word/being trustworthy with honoring promises and commitments.
I realize this goes far afield from your question, but I hope it helps. I wish you all the best.
posted by CMcG at 10:02 AM on October 26, 2019 [38 favorites]
Through my mid-thirties I'd say I was obsessively worried about my looks - and I too recognize that my appearance has, in various ways, held me back my whole life. (Now I'm visibly queer and gender-non-conforming, and if you want something that makes men, especially older men with power, just hate and proactively be horrible to you, well...!) I was always the ugly friend, and even now I have a knack for having dazzlingly beautiful friends who date other dazzlingly beautiful people, bringing ever more "could model if I wanted" people into my extended social circle.
Therapy to deal with past traumas made this sorta-mostly disappear. Not because the therapist was all "love yourself and find *great* friends!1!!" but because the emotional force that drove my negative feelings was coming from past trauma stuff. Once I was able to process some feelings from my past, I could say to myself "okay I am not the most beautiful person in the room, that's disappointing" and move on rather than spiraling into more and more rumination and bad feelings. (Do you ruminate? You write kind of like you ruminate. )
Do I feel bad about my looks? Sometimes! And aging brings with it a whole new series of feelings. But unlike before therapy, I'm able to be realistic about those feelings.
Before therapy, I would get pulled in by the surface reasonableness of my worries - since it's perfectly true that you do get treated better in a lot of ways if random men see you and think that they'd like to use your body as a combination fleshlight-trophy. It's true! But it's also garbage and not the whole story, and post therapy, I can see that instead of getting pulled into ruminating. Therapy gave me a sense of proportion about the world and a huge amount more peace.
Also, don't break up with your partner unless your relationship is intrinsically bad!
Years ago I read an interview with riot grrrl punk musician Kathleen Hanna, famed in part for writing negative words on her body - there's a famous picture of her performing in a crop-top with "SLUT" written on her stomach. Anyway, in this interview she said that sometimes she wished she hadn't done that, because it had been coming from a place of "if I say this about myself, I can pre-empt the pain of having other people say it about me", and it was a bit like punching yourself in the face before someone else can do it. There is no advantage to beating yourself up before the other guy gets the chance. Don't do the evil work of the world.
posted by Frowner at 10:22 AM on October 26, 2019 [35 favorites]
Therapy to deal with past traumas made this sorta-mostly disappear. Not because the therapist was all "love yourself and find *great* friends!1!!" but because the emotional force that drove my negative feelings was coming from past trauma stuff. Once I was able to process some feelings from my past, I could say to myself "okay I am not the most beautiful person in the room, that's disappointing" and move on rather than spiraling into more and more rumination and bad feelings. (Do you ruminate? You write kind of like you ruminate. )
Do I feel bad about my looks? Sometimes! And aging brings with it a whole new series of feelings. But unlike before therapy, I'm able to be realistic about those feelings.
Before therapy, I would get pulled in by the surface reasonableness of my worries - since it's perfectly true that you do get treated better in a lot of ways if random men see you and think that they'd like to use your body as a combination fleshlight-trophy. It's true! But it's also garbage and not the whole story, and post therapy, I can see that instead of getting pulled into ruminating. Therapy gave me a sense of proportion about the world and a huge amount more peace.
Also, don't break up with your partner unless your relationship is intrinsically bad!
Years ago I read an interview with riot grrrl punk musician Kathleen Hanna, famed in part for writing negative words on her body - there's a famous picture of her performing in a crop-top with "SLUT" written on her stomach. Anyway, in this interview she said that sometimes she wished she hadn't done that, because it had been coming from a place of "if I say this about myself, I can pre-empt the pain of having other people say it about me", and it was a bit like punching yourself in the face before someone else can do it. There is no advantage to beating yourself up before the other guy gets the chance. Don't do the evil work of the world.
posted by Frowner at 10:22 AM on October 26, 2019 [35 favorites]
How attracted are you to your partner? Are you with him for the right reasons? Or just because he seemed up for it and you think you can't be picky? You write he's nice and handsome, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that deep down you find him mortally bland. Sometimes people can be so concerned with the question if anyone could plausibly be attracted to them, that it simply never occurs to them to really ask themselves what precisely they find attractive in others. Or they aren't even aware that's a question to ask yourself, because there's an intensely subjective aspect to it, and not everyone's automatically attracted to the things that are considered conventionally attractive.
Frankly the fact that you even consider dumping your boyfriend over some hypothecial makes me question whether you feel particularly passionate about him. To me, all this handwringing about how he's surely just waiting for a chance to upgrade sounds like you're looking for a reason, any reason, to bail.
But here's the thing - you don't need any reason to end a relationship. He might be the dream of all mothers in law and the envy of girlfriends and still not be doing it for you, and that wouldn't be his fault nor yours. Ultimately, love is not about merit, but about compatibility. Perfectly decent people with the best intentions to do right by each other end up breaking up all the time and go on to find love with someone else, just because they simply don't work well_with_each_other.
For what it's worth I've also mostly been the least conventionally attractive person in any circle of friends I've been in, and over the years, that has made me feel fairly at peace with my general lack of erotic capital. Because it has given me ample occasion to observe that beautiful women do not actually have to deal with that much less shit than I do. They might be able to stun a guy into silence just by entering a room, but in the long run, they're not necessarily treated with that much more respect. Beauty certainly doesn't protect you from misogyny, and it doesn't protect you from getting cheated on. Most people who cheat don't necessarily look for an upgrade (think of all those gorgeous Hollywood actresses who get cheated on just as regularly as any other mortal) - they're into the thrill of the chase/or the thrill of getting away with it/ or just constantly looking for novelty.
And here's what I found most shocking to learn - beauty doesn't even protect you from selling yourself short, from thinking you don't deserve better, from thinking no one else could love you. No matter the number of suitors already waiting in line - you think they just don't really know the real you yet. Sure, beautiful women might have an easier time weeding out the guys just looking for a low effort opportunity (but as a plain women, I've found that easy enough too - just don't actually be low maintenance). But plain women have an easier time weeding out the guys just looking for a trophy. We all have our share of clowns to deal with.
Beautiful women do get a lot of validation from the world at large, but the world at large is equally keen on making sure to undercut that validation at every oppurtunity, lest it might make them forget their place. The conventionally beautiful women I know are acutely aware how fragile that power is, how vulnerable to time, health and the whims of fashion. They know they can't rely on beauty for long and are faced with a world that keeps reducing them to it. They had to fight for their self-respect just as hard as I did.
Not saying that conventional attractiveness doesn't come with some real privileges. Lookism is a thing, and it affects so much more than just dating prospects. A self-driving car in an accident will drive over me rather than someone less fat, because it has been programmed to rate me as worth less due to my weight. You are not paranoid to be upset about these things.
Your rage about the unfairness of it all is valid and possibly productive - you could join the good fight, help work raise people's awareness, change ideas about conventional attractiveness and its importance. Conventions are powerful but no laws of nature. There's very little a single person can hold against them, and quite a lot once we've reached critical mass.
posted by sohalt at 10:30 AM on October 26, 2019 [17 favorites]
Frankly the fact that you even consider dumping your boyfriend over some hypothecial makes me question whether you feel particularly passionate about him. To me, all this handwringing about how he's surely just waiting for a chance to upgrade sounds like you're looking for a reason, any reason, to bail.
But here's the thing - you don't need any reason to end a relationship. He might be the dream of all mothers in law and the envy of girlfriends and still not be doing it for you, and that wouldn't be his fault nor yours. Ultimately, love is not about merit, but about compatibility. Perfectly decent people with the best intentions to do right by each other end up breaking up all the time and go on to find love with someone else, just because they simply don't work well_with_each_other.
For what it's worth I've also mostly been the least conventionally attractive person in any circle of friends I've been in, and over the years, that has made me feel fairly at peace with my general lack of erotic capital. Because it has given me ample occasion to observe that beautiful women do not actually have to deal with that much less shit than I do. They might be able to stun a guy into silence just by entering a room, but in the long run, they're not necessarily treated with that much more respect. Beauty certainly doesn't protect you from misogyny, and it doesn't protect you from getting cheated on. Most people who cheat don't necessarily look for an upgrade (think of all those gorgeous Hollywood actresses who get cheated on just as regularly as any other mortal) - they're into the thrill of the chase/or the thrill of getting away with it/ or just constantly looking for novelty.
And here's what I found most shocking to learn - beauty doesn't even protect you from selling yourself short, from thinking you don't deserve better, from thinking no one else could love you. No matter the number of suitors already waiting in line - you think they just don't really know the real you yet. Sure, beautiful women might have an easier time weeding out the guys just looking for a low effort opportunity (but as a plain women, I've found that easy enough too - just don't actually be low maintenance). But plain women have an easier time weeding out the guys just looking for a trophy. We all have our share of clowns to deal with.
Beautiful women do get a lot of validation from the world at large, but the world at large is equally keen on making sure to undercut that validation at every oppurtunity, lest it might make them forget their place. The conventionally beautiful women I know are acutely aware how fragile that power is, how vulnerable to time, health and the whims of fashion. They know they can't rely on beauty for long and are faced with a world that keeps reducing them to it. They had to fight for their self-respect just as hard as I did.
Not saying that conventional attractiveness doesn't come with some real privileges. Lookism is a thing, and it affects so much more than just dating prospects. A self-driving car in an accident will drive over me rather than someone less fat, because it has been programmed to rate me as worth less due to my weight. You are not paranoid to be upset about these things.
Your rage about the unfairness of it all is valid and possibly productive - you could join the good fight, help work raise people's awareness, change ideas about conventional attractiveness and its importance. Conventions are powerful but no laws of nature. There's very little a single person can hold against them, and quite a lot once we've reached critical mass.
posted by sohalt at 10:30 AM on October 26, 2019 [17 favorites]
the emotional force that drove my negative feelings was coming from past trauma stuff
I wanted to emphasise this, but also playing devil’s advocate: there are a lot of beautiful people who you don’t see as unhappy because you think they won the lottery. The most beautiful client I ever had felt horribly inadequate compared to her friends, one of whom was an actual beauty queen (again, there will always be someone prettier). She had awful trauma in her childhood and that played out in her sense of worth. And I’ll add that beautiful people with low self-esteem are vulnerable to a lot of abuse in our society which is the flip side of people wanting trophies on their arm. I’m saying all this because you probably would have looked at her and made all kinds of assumptions and if she befriended you you would have doubted her motivations and you would have been wrong. One way to manage living in a society that judges us on our looks is not to be that person yourself. Don’t focus on how you’re treated, try and focus on how you treat other people. That’s what ultimately makes people respect and care for you, and having compassion for others will help you have compassion for yourself, which you deserve.
posted by billiebee at 10:34 AM on October 26, 2019 [10 favorites]
I wanted to emphasise this, but also playing devil’s advocate: there are a lot of beautiful people who you don’t see as unhappy because you think they won the lottery. The most beautiful client I ever had felt horribly inadequate compared to her friends, one of whom was an actual beauty queen (again, there will always be someone prettier). She had awful trauma in her childhood and that played out in her sense of worth. And I’ll add that beautiful people with low self-esteem are vulnerable to a lot of abuse in our society which is the flip side of people wanting trophies on their arm. I’m saying all this because you probably would have looked at her and made all kinds of assumptions and if she befriended you you would have doubted her motivations and you would have been wrong. One way to manage living in a society that judges us on our looks is not to be that person yourself. Don’t focus on how you’re treated, try and focus on how you treat other people. That’s what ultimately makes people respect and care for you, and having compassion for others will help you have compassion for yourself, which you deserve.
posted by billiebee at 10:34 AM on October 26, 2019 [10 favorites]
By any chance do you have trauma and/or abuse in your background? (Like frowner explained so well!) I mean all types of stuff, from childhood sexual abuse, having been bullied at school, etc. Long story short, it affects us in weird ways, like generally we focus our self-directed negativity on something random and seemingly unrelated like appearance. I have struggled with this in the past and found therapy, then also medication, helped me find peace. I don't love how I look but I'm like completely neutral about it, which is such an amazing and initially completely foreign feeling. We all deserve love but often loving ourselves is the hardest. I send you much love and compassion. I'm glad you brought this up, even if the solution is perhaps different than you had thought, and I wish you luck with this journey.
posted by smorgasbord at 10:55 AM on October 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 10:55 AM on October 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
If looks were that important for a happy life, Marilyn Monroe would still be making movies.
Hoping for free drinks from guys in bars is a truly terrible way to spend time. It doesn’t have to be how you spend yours! Lots of those guys feel equally lost and are reading gross pick up artist material. Many aspects of life are superficial, it’s true- but it’s also true that you can choose to cultivate a life where you opt out of many of those spaces.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:46 AM on October 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
Hoping for free drinks from guys in bars is a truly terrible way to spend time. It doesn’t have to be how you spend yours! Lots of those guys feel equally lost and are reading gross pick up artist material. Many aspects of life are superficial, it’s true- but it’s also true that you can choose to cultivate a life where you opt out of many of those spaces.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:46 AM on October 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
I'm 46 years old and I have had a varied and interesting life, and never once have I been in a bar, with a group of female friends, while a group of men sent us a round of shots. Pretty sure I'm not missing anything. I've never heard the term "DUFF," and I suspect that movie (which just had to have been written and directed by two white men, both of whom are assholes, amirite?) literally made it up specifically to make some Hollywood hack's brown-haired ex-girlfriend feel bad. I asked my 16-year-old, straight, handsome, super-popular son, who goes to conservatory high school and is literally surrounded by stunningly beautiful and deeply insecure girls all day long what a DUFF was. He'd never heard of it either. ("Maybe it's gay slang for something?")
My point is that you need to open your curtains and look around a little. If this is the way your social circle thinks and talks, it might be time to find a new social circle. If the men you're meeting (including your handsome partner?) are this level of misogynist shitwheel, it might be time to try a different set of venues for meeting people.
Trump rates women on scale of 1-10, and it isn't any sexier when he does it as when you do. Therapy, yes. Don't dump someone you love because of some imagined social standard, yes. New hobbies, yes. Less drinking, yes? Your life doesn't have to be this small.
posted by shadygrove at 12:03 PM on October 26, 2019 [29 favorites]
My point is that you need to open your curtains and look around a little. If this is the way your social circle thinks and talks, it might be time to find a new social circle. If the men you're meeting (including your handsome partner?) are this level of misogynist shitwheel, it might be time to try a different set of venues for meeting people.
Trump rates women on scale of 1-10, and it isn't any sexier when he does it as when you do. Therapy, yes. Don't dump someone you love because of some imagined social standard, yes. New hobbies, yes. Less drinking, yes? Your life doesn't have to be this small.
posted by shadygrove at 12:03 PM on October 26, 2019 [29 favorites]
I wish I could give you a huge hug - it must be difficult to struggle with the stress and anxiety surrounding all of these feelings.
You may be reading through what everyone upthread has said and thinking to yourself that it's not distorted thinking, that your rational is valid because you've described how people have actually said these things to you and you've had these bad experiences - and I want to tell you that we understand that, and we are not discounting your experiences. Many of us have also had similar bad experiences - sometimes for the same reasons and sometimes for completely opposite reasons - and this is exactly why it's so hard to recognize the inaccuracies and distortions within these thoughts. By definition a patriarchal society is going to encourage destructive thoughts and behaviors in women and girls.
It feels impossible to live up to these pressures because that is the point - they are not guidelines for life, they are conflicting messages meant to make women feel like they are less than, regardless of who they are. For example, I was taken aback when I read what you wrote about learning that being interesting but not hot meant that you would be disliked by straight men and most women. Because the unhealthy message that I was surrounded by was that if women were beautiful but not interesting enough that they were flawed and would be dismissed intellectually, disliked by most women, and used and disliked by men, because men could only like them superficially. Also terrible, but in a completely opposite direction.
The messaging isn't even consistent. Doesn't that show you how awful and ridiculous these societal pressures are? This is why internalizing these negative thoughts constitutes distorted thinking. It's meant to make us feel like we aren't enough, that we don't deserve kindness or happiness because we are lacking in some way. There is no bare minimum of attractiveness or youth or interestingness or any other trait that anyone has to meet to deserve kindness.
And in the same way, beautiful people also have bad relationships and get dumped and have cruel friends because attractiveness does not serve as a protection spell - there is no bare minimum of attractiveness that will protect someone from pain. You mentioned some "obvious solutions" to getting hurt, which both involve leaving people who you perceive as more attractive than you - leaving friends, leaving your partner. And at the same time you also mention not wanting to leave them because you like your friends and they are kind and treat you with respect, you love your partner and he is nice. It's understandable that you are searching for a common link between the unkind friends you had in the past and the men who were cruel to you in the past, as a way to inure yourself to future pain. The common link between these people is not that they were attractive; the common link between these people who treated you badly is their behavior. But recognizing red flags and bad behavior can be very difficult, and so we often try to find a shortcut, some sign that's easier to recognize. The reason that people above are asking you how you actually feel about your boyfriend and your friends is because they're trying to help you shift towards examining their behavior and listening to your own feelings, instead of pushing your feelings away.
If you find it difficult to learn how to recognize red flags on your own, or if you're finding it difficult to overcome negative thought processes, it's ok, most of us need help to develop the ability to recognize red flags - for some of us that means a trusted friend or family member, and for others, they developed these skills through therapy. It's hard to handle all of this alone. Can you find someone to talk to, even if it's without a set plan in place, just someone you can talk to about how you're feeling?
posted by photoelectric at 12:31 PM on October 26, 2019 [19 favorites]
You may be reading through what everyone upthread has said and thinking to yourself that it's not distorted thinking, that your rational is valid because you've described how people have actually said these things to you and you've had these bad experiences - and I want to tell you that we understand that, and we are not discounting your experiences. Many of us have also had similar bad experiences - sometimes for the same reasons and sometimes for completely opposite reasons - and this is exactly why it's so hard to recognize the inaccuracies and distortions within these thoughts. By definition a patriarchal society is going to encourage destructive thoughts and behaviors in women and girls.
It feels impossible to live up to these pressures because that is the point - they are not guidelines for life, they are conflicting messages meant to make women feel like they are less than, regardless of who they are. For example, I was taken aback when I read what you wrote about learning that being interesting but not hot meant that you would be disliked by straight men and most women. Because the unhealthy message that I was surrounded by was that if women were beautiful but not interesting enough that they were flawed and would be dismissed intellectually, disliked by most women, and used and disliked by men, because men could only like them superficially. Also terrible, but in a completely opposite direction.
The messaging isn't even consistent. Doesn't that show you how awful and ridiculous these societal pressures are? This is why internalizing these negative thoughts constitutes distorted thinking. It's meant to make us feel like we aren't enough, that we don't deserve kindness or happiness because we are lacking in some way. There is no bare minimum of attractiveness or youth or interestingness or any other trait that anyone has to meet to deserve kindness.
And in the same way, beautiful people also have bad relationships and get dumped and have cruel friends because attractiveness does not serve as a protection spell - there is no bare minimum of attractiveness that will protect someone from pain. You mentioned some "obvious solutions" to getting hurt, which both involve leaving people who you perceive as more attractive than you - leaving friends, leaving your partner. And at the same time you also mention not wanting to leave them because you like your friends and they are kind and treat you with respect, you love your partner and he is nice. It's understandable that you are searching for a common link between the unkind friends you had in the past and the men who were cruel to you in the past, as a way to inure yourself to future pain. The common link between these people is not that they were attractive; the common link between these people who treated you badly is their behavior. But recognizing red flags and bad behavior can be very difficult, and so we often try to find a shortcut, some sign that's easier to recognize. The reason that people above are asking you how you actually feel about your boyfriend and your friends is because they're trying to help you shift towards examining their behavior and listening to your own feelings, instead of pushing your feelings away.
If you find it difficult to learn how to recognize red flags on your own, or if you're finding it difficult to overcome negative thought processes, it's ok, most of us need help to develop the ability to recognize red flags - for some of us that means a trusted friend or family member, and for others, they developed these skills through therapy. It's hard to handle all of this alone. Can you find someone to talk to, even if it's without a set plan in place, just someone you can talk to about how you're feeling?
posted by photoelectric at 12:31 PM on October 26, 2019 [19 favorites]
it therefore seems unlikely he's with me for the right reasons.
don't you...know him? like, to talk to? A guy who is in love with you will not shut up about how much he likes you and what things he like about you. it's one thing to wonder why he's stopped, if he's changed his mind, if he's gotten bored, if he still cares. but to never have known at all!-- is it that he never said these things to you, or only that you don't believe him?
if you cannot believe the words coming out of his mouth, then either learn to trust your self-protective instinct and get far away from him, or figure out how to separate this deeply rooted -- and not unreasonable-- mistrust and contempt for men as a class from your specific feeling for this one man who loves you. (supposing that he treats you well, says he loves you, and that you really do love him too. if he doesn't or if you don't, that changes everything.)
I have found that too much preoccupation with how a partner feels about you is often a distraction from the question of how you feel about him. Are you with him for 'the right reasons,' whatever those are? you won't consider leaving any of your friends over their looks, that's obviously wrong, but you're thinking of leaving him pre-emptively to spare yourself pain because he's pretty -- no thought of what pain that would cause him, or guilt over that?
As young girls we're not taught how to live as un-beautiful women; we're taught to pour our souls (and our cash) into attaining beauty.
every day most women do things they weren't taught or told to do. that aside, what obsesses you is such a tiny part of life, and your pain over it makes it appear to you as the whole of life, as though there is no human interaction possible where the appearance of the interactors is not the most important thing. like a toothache so bad that the area of sensation seems larger than the whole rest of your body. the sensation is true but the ideas you have about it are not.
The way to live as you continue to grow older and continue to feel unbeautiful is to have something to love that doesn't look back at you to see how pretty you are. a discipline; an art; an object; a field of scholarship; a hobby, an animal. beautiful women stay beautiful into their fifties, their sixties, until they die, but sooner or later other people stop caring how beautiful they are. They themselves stop caring on their own schedule. that is a power all women have in common. you, also, are free to stop caring how beautiful you are.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:17 PM on October 26, 2019 [18 favorites]
don't you...know him? like, to talk to? A guy who is in love with you will not shut up about how much he likes you and what things he like about you. it's one thing to wonder why he's stopped, if he's changed his mind, if he's gotten bored, if he still cares. but to never have known at all!-- is it that he never said these things to you, or only that you don't believe him?
if you cannot believe the words coming out of his mouth, then either learn to trust your self-protective instinct and get far away from him, or figure out how to separate this deeply rooted -- and not unreasonable-- mistrust and contempt for men as a class from your specific feeling for this one man who loves you. (supposing that he treats you well, says he loves you, and that you really do love him too. if he doesn't or if you don't, that changes everything.)
I have found that too much preoccupation with how a partner feels about you is often a distraction from the question of how you feel about him. Are you with him for 'the right reasons,' whatever those are? you won't consider leaving any of your friends over their looks, that's obviously wrong, but you're thinking of leaving him pre-emptively to spare yourself pain because he's pretty -- no thought of what pain that would cause him, or guilt over that?
As young girls we're not taught how to live as un-beautiful women; we're taught to pour our souls (and our cash) into attaining beauty.
every day most women do things they weren't taught or told to do. that aside, what obsesses you is such a tiny part of life, and your pain over it makes it appear to you as the whole of life, as though there is no human interaction possible where the appearance of the interactors is not the most important thing. like a toothache so bad that the area of sensation seems larger than the whole rest of your body. the sensation is true but the ideas you have about it are not.
The way to live as you continue to grow older and continue to feel unbeautiful is to have something to love that doesn't look back at you to see how pretty you are. a discipline; an art; an object; a field of scholarship; a hobby, an animal. beautiful women stay beautiful into their fifties, their sixties, until they die, but sooner or later other people stop caring how beautiful they are. They themselves stop caring on their own schedule. that is a power all women have in common. you, also, are free to stop caring how beautiful you are.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:17 PM on October 26, 2019 [18 favorites]
So, hi, hello, we have a lot in common. Let's talk.
I am unremarkable looking. I don't scare children but I have nothing to recommend me appearance-wise...no particularly compelling physical assets, and a couple-few big detriments (bad teeth, no eyebrows, wonky hair, a kind of droopy eye, no sense of style). With quite an extraordinary lot of expensive effort, I can get a "cute!" from my boyfriend, or sometimes a "look at you!" if I'm all dolled up.
And, I have a hot boyfriend. Being a plain girl with a hot boyfriend is in fact sometimes a bit of a challenge, although people upthread are quick to dismiss your worries. It's not necessarily your boyfriend who creates the issue -- it can be just the world itself. Women blatantly hit on my boyfriend in front of me all the time. Because I'm basically invisible, and probably just his ugly friend who has a crush on him that he'll never return, right? Dudes give him a nonzero amount of shit over it too, although his actual friends know and like me, and think we are a good match, and aren't shitheads. (That's why they're actual friends.) Bless him, he never even notices the flirts, and can't understand why anyone would think we're a bad fit.
If your boyfriend cannot give you a sense that his commitment to you is solid and loving and independent of your looks, that's one thing. If he isn't proud to have you on his arm and ready to defend you or cut off some bullshit, that's one thing. BUT. If he can do all of these things and you still can't believe him, that's another. And only you can fix that one, and not by dumping him.
You mention finding "uglier" friends. Well, I think you should! But not for the reasons you think. It's not to make yourself look better. It's to practice falling in love (in a friendship way) with someone who isn't physically perfect...so that you can love yourself a little better too. If I try, I can think of friends of mine who have similar appearance struggles to mine. But I really have to try! Because most of the time in my mind, they are just glowing in the mental instagram filter of how much I care about them, and let me tell you, that filter makes everyone look good.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:32 PM on October 26, 2019 [32 favorites]
I am unremarkable looking. I don't scare children but I have nothing to recommend me appearance-wise...no particularly compelling physical assets, and a couple-few big detriments (bad teeth, no eyebrows, wonky hair, a kind of droopy eye, no sense of style). With quite an extraordinary lot of expensive effort, I can get a "cute!" from my boyfriend, or sometimes a "look at you!" if I'm all dolled up.
And, I have a hot boyfriend. Being a plain girl with a hot boyfriend is in fact sometimes a bit of a challenge, although people upthread are quick to dismiss your worries. It's not necessarily your boyfriend who creates the issue -- it can be just the world itself. Women blatantly hit on my boyfriend in front of me all the time. Because I'm basically invisible, and probably just his ugly friend who has a crush on him that he'll never return, right? Dudes give him a nonzero amount of shit over it too, although his actual friends know and like me, and think we are a good match, and aren't shitheads. (That's why they're actual friends.) Bless him, he never even notices the flirts, and can't understand why anyone would think we're a bad fit.
If your boyfriend cannot give you a sense that his commitment to you is solid and loving and independent of your looks, that's one thing. If he isn't proud to have you on his arm and ready to defend you or cut off some bullshit, that's one thing. BUT. If he can do all of these things and you still can't believe him, that's another. And only you can fix that one, and not by dumping him.
You mention finding "uglier" friends. Well, I think you should! But not for the reasons you think. It's not to make yourself look better. It's to practice falling in love (in a friendship way) with someone who isn't physically perfect...so that you can love yourself a little better too. If I try, I can think of friends of mine who have similar appearance struggles to mine. But I really have to try! Because most of the time in my mind, they are just glowing in the mental instagram filter of how much I care about them, and let me tell you, that filter makes everyone look good.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:32 PM on October 26, 2019 [32 favorites]
It is really amazing how many things you are certain are true change or turn out to be different as you get older and go through some life stuff. I remember thinking about the world the way this question does, and I don’t know when and how it changed, but the concept of guys in bars’ taste in women is something I haven’t thought about in literal years. People have much more varied taste in other people (not just looks) than they seem to, and as your cohort gets older, you start to see that. Not that people are no longer superficial, but they are superficial in unexpected ways, and you will be shocked about the people attracted to you and to whom you are attracted, and why.
That being said, I also find the second part of this question concerning. Have you considered whether you actually want to be with your boyfriend, versus seeing him as proof that someone is validating your attractiveness? How would you feel if he talked about letting you go so easily?
posted by sallybrown at 5:34 PM on October 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
That being said, I also find the second part of this question concerning. Have you considered whether you actually want to be with your boyfriend, versus seeing him as proof that someone is validating your attractiveness? How would you feel if he talked about letting you go so easily?
posted by sallybrown at 5:34 PM on October 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
"Don't spend time with people who make you feel bad/insecure/jealous" is obvious advice, but I don't believe the solution is to act like those friends ("friends") I had to dump, only socializing with women I perceive as less attractive than myself.
Oh, mate. The solution is not to hang around with people who are less attractive than you. The solution is to find some friends who don’t give a shit what shape your face or teeth are, because you make them laugh like a drain, or will run into the sea screaming with delight with them on a cold day because that’s what you both like to do, or listen to their bad days at work like you really care even if you don’t, friends who’ll come to your beginner saxophone recital and burst with pride and wonder that you can make those notes, or wear the accidentally way-too-big gloves you knitted them because they love that you spent all that time thinking of them, or any of all the million and one wonderful and varied things that can make a person valuable as a friend or partner. None of which have anything to do with the arrangement of your face.
And the people who will do those things might be “beautiful” or they might be not, but you won’t care or even notice, because they sat through your fucking sax recital and stood up to applaud at the end because they think you’re so awesome and if anyone asked them if you were a 10 or a 4, they’d look at them with weird lop-sided quizzical eyebrows like “I don’t understand, what are you talking about. Didn’t you just hear her play her first ever saxophone piece?!”
If you haven’t found those people yet, stop hanging out in bars and nightclubs and go and do some other things, with people of all sorts of ages. In fact, it sounds like maybe you have found one of those people already, and he’s your boyfriend, and you should be holding onto him and looking for more friends like him, not dumping him.
posted by penguin pie at 6:03 PM on October 26, 2019 [22 favorites]
Oh, mate. The solution is not to hang around with people who are less attractive than you. The solution is to find some friends who don’t give a shit what shape your face or teeth are, because you make them laugh like a drain, or will run into the sea screaming with delight with them on a cold day because that’s what you both like to do, or listen to their bad days at work like you really care even if you don’t, friends who’ll come to your beginner saxophone recital and burst with pride and wonder that you can make those notes, or wear the accidentally way-too-big gloves you knitted them because they love that you spent all that time thinking of them, or any of all the million and one wonderful and varied things that can make a person valuable as a friend or partner. None of which have anything to do with the arrangement of your face.
And the people who will do those things might be “beautiful” or they might be not, but you won’t care or even notice, because they sat through your fucking sax recital and stood up to applaud at the end because they think you’re so awesome and if anyone asked them if you were a 10 or a 4, they’d look at them with weird lop-sided quizzical eyebrows like “I don’t understand, what are you talking about. Didn’t you just hear her play her first ever saxophone piece?!”
If you haven’t found those people yet, stop hanging out in bars and nightclubs and go and do some other things, with people of all sorts of ages. In fact, it sounds like maybe you have found one of those people already, and he’s your boyfriend, and you should be holding onto him and looking for more friends like him, not dumping him.
posted by penguin pie at 6:03 PM on October 26, 2019 [22 favorites]
On days when I'm being kind of hard on myself about my appearance, it helps to think of my friends and loved ones are are also not supermodels and remember that when I look at them, I don't see "oh, A is kind of fat" and "B has weird hair" and whatnot. I see someone who brings joy to my life, and because of that, my brain processes them as beautiful. I see their kind smiles and their hearty laughs and their knowing looks.
I think you will find that most people are much kinder to others in processing their appearances than they are to themselves.
That said, if you have friends who go around judging everyone's looks all the time, by all means ditch them!
posted by ktkt at 6:13 PM on October 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think you will find that most people are much kinder to others in processing their appearances than they are to themselves.
That said, if you have friends who go around judging everyone's looks all the time, by all means ditch them!
posted by ktkt at 6:13 PM on October 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
I can't really add anything because so many posters have covered the bases already. I imagine that to read through everything here might be overwhelming for you. Please take some time to process this thread carefully. And please be kind to yourself.
posted by acidnova at 11:31 PM on October 26, 2019
posted by acidnova at 11:31 PM on October 26, 2019
I go back to this answer every couple of years, and it makes me cry every time. You haven't said that you are notably ugly, so know that it's not my intention to draw a precise parallel. I don't know the exact way in which I feel it is relevant for this question - it's a bit hard to put into words - but I really do.
posted by namesarehard at 1:02 PM on October 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by namesarehard at 1:02 PM on October 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
I think it would also help to contribute some depth and texture to attractive people, too. It's not fair to deprive them of suffering and think their lives are perfect just because you think they won the genetic lottery. Everyone has their own personal struggles and battles and traumas and are three dimensional. That hot girl in the club likely has some sexual assault trauma. That beautiful woman in the street might have bipolar disorder or borderline personality disorder and might never find someone who will fit her personality or mental health struggles. This type of thinking "compared to the Beautiful Ladies (tm) he has occasionally tried to date, I have some serious grit and a sense of humor to match his." is really unfeminist. Beautiful women can have an incredible sense of humor and grit. The person I'm quoting is observing that they found a partner who is a good fit for them both; this is irrespective of their physical appearances or those they're comparing themselves to.
posted by erattacorrige at 1:18 PM on October 27, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by erattacorrige at 1:18 PM on October 27, 2019 [7 favorites]
so i was also the ugly fat friend in my friend groups in high school, college, and shortly after. it hurt, a lot, that no one bought drinks for me or wanted to take me home. but then i "aged out" of bars and clubbing and what not, and it was no longer an issue.
i'm still the least attractive and fattest of my current friends, but when hanging out at home or a craft event, appearance just doesn't matter.
My current partner is a nice guy and I love him, but he's pretty conventionally attractive and it therefore seems unlikely he's with me for the right reasons. Even if he is, someday he's going to unceremoniously leave me when he realizes he can do better.
ooof. super ooof. how hurt would your boyfriend be if he read that? if he really is only with you for bad reasons, then yes, dump him. but to assume that he's settling is not fair to him or you (this is a lesson i've learned only recently at 39).
posted by misanthropicsarah at 7:55 AM on October 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
i'm still the least attractive and fattest of my current friends, but when hanging out at home or a craft event, appearance just doesn't matter.
My current partner is a nice guy and I love him, but he's pretty conventionally attractive and it therefore seems unlikely he's with me for the right reasons. Even if he is, someday he's going to unceremoniously leave me when he realizes he can do better.
ooof. super ooof. how hurt would your boyfriend be if he read that? if he really is only with you for bad reasons, then yes, dump him. but to assume that he's settling is not fair to him or you (this is a lesson i've learned only recently at 39).
posted by misanthropicsarah at 7:55 AM on October 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Hi again. I'm sorry it took me so long to respond to this, but I wanted to really reflect on everyone's advice, all of which is excellent and for which I can't thank you enough. shadygrove's answer in particular made me laugh out loud (thanks for passing along your son's feedback XD) and queenofbithynia's made me cry. Really they all kind of made me want to cry (in a good way) and I can't pick a "best" one.
Apologies for confusion I caused by posting the DUFF video--I was really looking for a shorthand to describe how I feel about myself and how men seem to see me in relation to my friends, rather than to describe my friends' treatment of me which is not like that of the "hot girls" in the movie (at least not on a conscious level).
Answers pointing to the strangeness and inappropriateness of fixating on my looks as an adult were a jolt. A great, great, many of my otherwise smart and compassionate female friends DO obsess over their looks and others', and ask me openly or implicitly to participate. If anything I was much more resigned when I was younger, and then in the past few years (the end of my twenties) have become increasingly frustrated and anxious as it's begun to seem that this constant self-scrunity/hatred/"improvement" is something "normal" people do in order to succeed. Maybe also because I'm finally having to let go of very childish hopes for transformation that I didn't even realize I still harbored. Living in a city largely dominated by the fashion, luxury, and filmmaking industries probably isn't helping, though moving isn't going to be possible for a couple years.
I was actually reading everyone's answers in real time while at a party in a swank bar downtown, where all the women were predictably thin, gorgeous, and beautifully dressed; they were an enormous help in not spiralling into a private self-loathing party and instead actually focusing on the guest of honor and conversations with interesting people. I left feeling okay for once! Then I went to a party last night, a much less glitzy affair, and despite my resolution to keep all your excellent advice in mind, walked home afterwards for nearly 2 hours in a fugue state of shame and grief because I felt so ignored and unwanted compared to the other women there. BUT at least this time, I was able to question it in the moment instead of just rolling with it.
It comes to me that I am going to have to confront how much of this problem (most of it) is under my control and comes from old ideas which I have to relinquish in order to grow up, a realization it would have taken me much longer to arrive at without all of your help. Thank you so much again.
posted by blessmycottonsocks at 1:31 PM on November 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
Apologies for confusion I caused by posting the DUFF video--I was really looking for a shorthand to describe how I feel about myself and how men seem to see me in relation to my friends, rather than to describe my friends' treatment of me which is not like that of the "hot girls" in the movie (at least not on a conscious level).
Answers pointing to the strangeness and inappropriateness of fixating on my looks as an adult were a jolt. A great, great, many of my otherwise smart and compassionate female friends DO obsess over their looks and others', and ask me openly or implicitly to participate. If anything I was much more resigned when I was younger, and then in the past few years (the end of my twenties) have become increasingly frustrated and anxious as it's begun to seem that this constant self-scrunity/hatred/"improvement" is something "normal" people do in order to succeed. Maybe also because I'm finally having to let go of very childish hopes for transformation that I didn't even realize I still harbored. Living in a city largely dominated by the fashion, luxury, and filmmaking industries probably isn't helping, though moving isn't going to be possible for a couple years.
I was actually reading everyone's answers in real time while at a party in a swank bar downtown, where all the women were predictably thin, gorgeous, and beautifully dressed; they were an enormous help in not spiralling into a private self-loathing party and instead actually focusing on the guest of honor and conversations with interesting people. I left feeling okay for once! Then I went to a party last night, a much less glitzy affair, and despite my resolution to keep all your excellent advice in mind, walked home afterwards for nearly 2 hours in a fugue state of shame and grief because I felt so ignored and unwanted compared to the other women there. BUT at least this time, I was able to question it in the moment instead of just rolling with it.
It comes to me that I am going to have to confront how much of this problem (most of it) is under my control and comes from old ideas which I have to relinquish in order to grow up, a realization it would have taken me much longer to arrive at without all of your help. Thank you so much again.
posted by blessmycottonsocks at 1:31 PM on November 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
As gently as possible, the problem here is not your partner or your friends: it's you. Please find a therapist, because you are speaking from a deeply unhealthy, self-destructive and self-loathing place you don't have to live in for the rest of your life.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:09 AM on October 26, 2019 [213 favorites]