Why do the methods for Indian pickle vs. sauerkraut seem so… opposite?

October 23, 2019 3:24 PM

I'm new to fermenting, and just tried my first Indian lime pickle recipe this week. I'd like to understand why the recommended materials and methods (glass, sun, heat) are so opposite of what I saw for sauerkraut and kimchi (ceramic, dark, cool).

I'm a novice fermenter, with only a few batches of sauerkraut and kimchi under my belt. This week I tried my hand at Indian lime pickle (using this recipe, in which I hope it will turn out ok to substitute limes for lemons)

I was really struck by the differences in technique between this and kraut/kimchi. For the cabbage-based recipes I've done, it was recommended to use an opaque vessel, and to keep it dark and cool. All the Indian pickle recipes I looked at used a glass vessel, and especially recommended "cooking" it in the summer sun for several days to achieve the best flavor.

I've made simple preserved lemons before in a glass jar (indoors on the countertop, in winter), but I don't think I realized that the lemons were actually fermenting --- I thought I was just sort of "curing" them. So now that I know, I'd like to understand how the cabbage/citrus processes relate to one another. Obviously these foods were being made without refrigeration technology for thousands of years, so climate differences are certainly involved, but there must be something microbiological going on as well, right?

I did do a google and found a few articles. Which made me really want to try even more varieties/nationalities of pickle, but did not give me a lot of scientific info.

Bonus pickle recipes welcome, but my primary goal is to find out why these two styles of pickle have such divergent recommendations for fermentation conditions (in my limited experience).

posted by slenderloris to Food & Drink (11 answers total)

Changing the temperature you ferment at definitely changes the results. Warmer ferments "go" faster, become sour sooner, and can make the vegetables break down faster so that things end up soft (or, at he far end, mushy and gloopy). Colder ferments take longer to get sour, let the vegetables stay half-crisp for longer, and can be aged for a long time, giving flavors that are less bright and more funky.

And so I sort of wonder if all three traditions are kind of just playing to their strengths. Poland and Korea have an aesthetic that's about cold weather, slow fermentation, funky aged flavors, and well-preserved texture. If you want to make recipes with that aesthetic, keep your stuff cool. India has an aesthetic that's about hot weather, fast fermentation, thick almost-"cooked" texture, and bright sharp flavors. If you want to make recipes with that aesthetic, keep your stuff warm.
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:18 PM on October 23, 2019 [8 favorites]

Not all Indian pickles are made in glass vessels. Turnip and lemon are the only ones I can think of where it's usually recommended and lemon is actually the only one I've never seen prepared in a ceramic vessel. Mango pickle and Hyderabadi mixed pickle are preferably made in ceramic vessels, at least as handed down to me.

So, it's not just a climatic thing. What is being pickled seems to matter, too.
posted by bardophile at 7:05 PM on October 23, 2019 [2 favorites]

It’s correct that a lot of Indian pickling has historically used sunlight and heat to expedite the fermentation process, which makes it easier to enjoy achaar on a daily basis. (In my home I am often reminded that certain dals or other dishes just taste better if they’re consumed with a bit of achaar - that’s to give you an idea of how much of a staple it can be considered in many Indian households!) Although the Indian subcontinent is far from a climate monolith, and enjoys plenty of cold and snow in many places, I agree with nebulawindphone that the more common practice of using sunlight to facilitate the pickling process is an example of Indian cuisine working with the benefits/strengths of a warmer than average climate. Faster pickling = more abundant pickles. However, there’s a limit to how much heat fermentation can tolerate before yeast dies and fermentation slows or comes to a halt. The oil and spices protect the achaar from developing bad bacteria - in theory - although it probably doesn’t hurt that sometimes there is blanching or full-on cooking of the vegetables before fermentation starts. What’s important is that there is a proper ratio of salt and water in the fermentation jar, because this produces the good bacteria that creates acids that fight off bad bacteria. So it’s definitely never as simple as “leave it in the sun.”

Sources: The Art of Fermentation; my Punjabi mother in law.
posted by nightrecordings at 7:14 PM on October 23, 2019 [7 favorites]

Maybe it would help to think of it as slow-cooking over a long time with low heat vs. pan-searing over high heat? Both are delicious, just different ways of cooking/preparing things.
posted by lazuli at 10:02 PM on October 23, 2019

As a contrary data point when I make Kimchi I store it in a glass container. In fact, I’d say this is the most common way I’ve seen home made kimchi stored. Ceramic was traditionally used because glass was expensive. Now it’s better because you can get glass storage with rubber seals to seal out the smell and prevent spills and the glass does not retain stains or smells so you could use it for other things when it doesn’t hold kimchi.

Secondly, it’s true we store it in the fridge, but this is to prolong its life and have the fermentation slow down. Then the kimchi undergoes slightly different variations in taste over time.

But when I make kimchi I purposely leave it out at room temp for a couple of days to kick start the fermentation before storing in the fridge so I get to the sour taste that prefer faster. I don’t care for the early days with the “fresh” kimchi taste - but my dad really likes it so it’s really just a matter of preference.
posted by like_neon at 2:44 AM on October 24, 2019 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks, these are interesting answers. I guess in retrospect it's kind of a circular question --- the methods are different because the desired results are different.

I'm still curious why the different methods produce those different results, however. Does the sun kill certain kinds of microorganisms while others thrive in the dark? Or is it all the same bacteria/yeast, just doing their thing way faster at higher temperatures? Or something else entirely?
posted by slenderloris at 11:23 AM on October 24, 2019

I think some of both. There are a lot of different fermentation organisms, even if you stick just to the ones that live on a particular kind of food. Temperature affects which species are dominant. And it also affects how fast those organisms' metabolisms run and how fast they reproduce.

So warm ferments have a different balance of species, and also have them doing their thing faster.

I dunno about light. I imagine there are also some species that are more light-tolerant than others, but I couldn't tell you for sure. Light also can break down some flavor compounds directly, without help from microbes — for instance, it breaks down the molecules in hops that give them their flavor, which is why beer bottles are dark — but I don't know how much of a role that plays in pickling.
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:01 PM on October 24, 2019

Is it the same results, though? Because IMO indian pickles taste nothing like sauerkraut or kimchi, even after accounting for the difference in spices. Notably, kimchi and sauerkraut and american pickle spears (baby cucumber thingies?) seem to preserve the crunchy texture of the veggies, but Indian pickled veggies are usually soft enough to rub into a paste with your fingers.

I wouldn't be surprised of the processes at work were quite different. I've never once considered these two types of pickles to be in the same food family, despite having the same name.
posted by MiraK at 12:03 PM on October 24, 2019 [1 favorite]

Part of the difference in texture is what you start out with, though. Carrot achaar or garlic achaar remain crunchy, for example. Mangoes and lemons are softer to begin with.
posted by bardophile at 7:51 PM on October 24, 2019

Maybe¿ There are some veggies that don't lose their crunch no matter what you do to them. But, like, if you pickled a cucumber spear in the Indian way, you would not end up with anything like the texture of dill pickles. (I wonder why I've never seen cucumber achaar. Possibly because cucumbers are so insubstantial! I doubt they'd hold up to the process in any recognizable shape or form, they'd melt into the spices and oil.)
posted by MiraK at 10:28 AM on October 25, 2019 [1 favorite]

(The crunchiness of dill pickles goes beyond temperature, though — fermenting cold helps, but it isn't enough without doing a bunch of other stuff, and if you skip the other stuff they turn out limp. And some things, like soybeans, come out straight-up mushy even when you ferment them really cold.

I think it's fairer to say there are a lot of different variables, including "what temperature" and "how much light" and also things like "what main ingredient, cut up how, what seasonings, what other chemicals," etc. All else equal, warmer means softer. But all else is rarely equal, because there's so much that varies from one tradition to another.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:11 AM on October 25, 2019 [2 favorites]