falling into relationship patterns
June 14, 2019 11:17 PM Subscribe
In my relationship, I feel like we fall into some patterns. I feel like my emotions are received as attacks, and I feel like I'm pushed into an emotionally responsible 'lead' role by my partner. I don't want this. Help!
I'm in a wonderful loving relationship with my partner. But we frequently have communication issues. And I often feel like I'm expected to be an older/powerful role figure who "fixes" the problem, rather than being in a collaborative equal partnership where we're both trying our best.
There are a few patterns that I feel like we keep on falling into:
1) My expressions of emotions seem like they're received as attacks by my partner.
It's really important to me to feel heard, so I want to talk about how I feel. However, it seems like this makes my partner feel personally attacked or criticized.
I've tried continuously to clarify that I'm not attacking them, but really wanting to express my emotions. I try my best to use 'I feel' statements, to try to not make observations and not interpretations (ala NVC). But when I share, it often doesn't go over well. I think that my expressions of emotions are seen as a threat, or a demand for something to be fixed, or an implicit message that my partner did something wrong.. even when it's as simple as saying "I feel sad".
This makes me feel incredibly frustrated and trapped, which of course doesn't help. Often times I'll try to get over it, calm myself down, and to make us feel better, which often works, but then makes me feel like I've neglected or hidden my emotions in favor of making us or my partner feel better.
This relates to the second pattern:
2) I think that I am often framed as the "responsible" one, or an emotional lead of sorts.
That is, my partner will ask me, "do you want me to do X?", "was I wrong to say/do Y?", "what do you want me to do?" and similar questions. OR, I feel like my expressions of emotions become interpreted as those things - and my partner will interpret me as saying 'I want you to do X', 'you were wrong to say/do Y', 'I want you to do something else instead'.
To me I feel trapped again, because I feel like this puts the focus of agency and control solely onto me.. and I don't want that!
In my dreams I would like (what would feel like) a more emotionally equal partnership where the focus of agency is either between us, or in both of us. In my ideal, my partner would have their own ways and thoughts and opinions and feelings about this, and would come to the table with their own needs and ideals, and then we'd figure out what works for both of us together.
But instead it feels incredibly lonely and isolating to feel like my partner is looking to me for an answer on how to 'solve' or 'direct' our conflicts. It also feels tiring and exhausting, because I feel like if I have a firm grip on being emotionally healthy, then working through conflicts feels easy and great... but if I slip up, then conflicts deepen. That means that I feel like there's no 'safety net' underneath me, and as if all of the responsibility of working through conflict is on me, and that I have to be perfect & without mistakes.
There's, of course, a gender (and age) aspect to this as well. This is a cis hetero relationship; my partner is a white cis woman and I'm a POC cis man. We are in our late 20s/early 30s (I am older). So when I feel like I'm pushed into an emotional lead role, I feel like I'm also being asked to amplify & align with gender roles that I didn't ask for -- and to be honest, this makes me a bit resentful.
I have communicated all of this to my partner explicitly. They say they want that too. But we still get stuck in the same patterns. And I don't feel like anything changes.
3) Metapattern: Am I actually making things worse?
When the first two patterns happen, I feel sad, lonely, isolated, exhausted.. and then I start to feel resentful and upset and angry because I think that my partner is being "passive". I'll try to articulate my feelings about this, and then it won't go over well.
And then I wonder if I'm getting caught in some sort of larger gender-role trap where I AM indeed actually re-entrenching ourselves into gender roles, because I have this ideal of a balanced partnership of emotional agency, and I'm trying to make it happen. Like, I'm pushing for it because I think it's good, but on some sort of meta-level, maybe I, a man, am arguing for 'what I think is right' to my female partner? Am I inadvertently entrenching an overfunctioning/underfunctioning dynamic? Should I back off and accept these patterns as what the relationship is? I mean, if she wants a relationship with an emotional lead, who am I to change that?
Also, am I crowding them / not giving them enough space within the relationship to hold agency and do things / make mistakes? I don't think so? But maybe I am inadvertently? I could try doing this more by being less specific about what I want, talking about these patterns less, erring on the edge of undercommunication..
Another pattern: I also hold some resentment because I feel like this is really important to me, so I try to do a lot of reading. I've read some of the Gottmans' stuff, Non Violent Communication, Conflict Is Not Abuse. I've tried to model and share ways of communicating and facilitation that I've seen work in other non-relationship contexts. I've seen therapists here and there over the years, but am actively looking for one lately; they've never seen a therapist. I feel like I'm more pulling and asking for better communication and doing the work to read about it and requesting to go to couples therapy, etc.
And then again, I wonder: am I an overcommunicator? Am I forcing things? If I'm being honest to myself, I definitely have expectations that my partner will actively bring ideas to the table and that we'll find a happy middle ground as equals. I have expectations that I can make mistakes and my partner will catch me, or push back against me, and tell me what I'm doing wrong. (Gosh, if my partner were to stop us in a conversation and to gently and firmly tell me that she'd like me to communicate differently, that would be a breath of fresh air. I would love it. That sounds so nice it makes me tear up.)
--
I love them a great deal, and I know that they love me. I trust them, and know that they trust me. They can be a great listener and are down to try things. We have really rich and good conversations about sex and gender and race. Underlying our relationship is a pretty solid desire to make things work together.
I try to remind myself that the patriarchy and sexism shapes both of us, and that there are systematic and social forces that has told my partner, as a woman, that she should be responsive/passive, and that those same forces make me more comfortable with being proactive / having agency. It's tricky, because on other fronts it can be balanced; they're more of an extrovert and I'm more of an introvert, they're white and I'm a poc. But I am also older. So I am aware and trying to be more aware of the power dynamics that we hold within our relationships. I am trying to be patent and open and understanding. I am trying to work on myself also, independently of the relationship.
Much of the time, things are really good. Sometimes we will go near these patterns, but will pull ourselves out. But when one of us is tired/hungry/sad/stressed, we can fall into these patterns and swirl for a while. And again, in those patterns, I feel incredibly lonely, trapped, and isolated.
So in the end, I'm not sure what to do.
- Should I work on myself primarily?
- Should I focus less on 'changing' our relationship and set some emotional distance?
- Should I try to change the way I communicate to better share what I am feeling?
- Should I do less and back off so to create more space?
- Should I try to be more explicit about what I want?
- Should I fundamentally accept this relationship for what it is and let go of my expectations, and let whatever emotional dynamics might happen to happen?
Any and all thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks.
I'm in a wonderful loving relationship with my partner. But we frequently have communication issues. And I often feel like I'm expected to be an older/powerful role figure who "fixes" the problem, rather than being in a collaborative equal partnership where we're both trying our best.
There are a few patterns that I feel like we keep on falling into:
1) My expressions of emotions seem like they're received as attacks by my partner.
It's really important to me to feel heard, so I want to talk about how I feel. However, it seems like this makes my partner feel personally attacked or criticized.
I've tried continuously to clarify that I'm not attacking them, but really wanting to express my emotions. I try my best to use 'I feel' statements, to try to not make observations and not interpretations (ala NVC). But when I share, it often doesn't go over well. I think that my expressions of emotions are seen as a threat, or a demand for something to be fixed, or an implicit message that my partner did something wrong.. even when it's as simple as saying "I feel sad".
This makes me feel incredibly frustrated and trapped, which of course doesn't help. Often times I'll try to get over it, calm myself down, and to make us feel better, which often works, but then makes me feel like I've neglected or hidden my emotions in favor of making us or my partner feel better.
This relates to the second pattern:
2) I think that I am often framed as the "responsible" one, or an emotional lead of sorts.
That is, my partner will ask me, "do you want me to do X?", "was I wrong to say/do Y?", "what do you want me to do?" and similar questions. OR, I feel like my expressions of emotions become interpreted as those things - and my partner will interpret me as saying 'I want you to do X', 'you were wrong to say/do Y', 'I want you to do something else instead'.
To me I feel trapped again, because I feel like this puts the focus of agency and control solely onto me.. and I don't want that!
In my dreams I would like (what would feel like) a more emotionally equal partnership where the focus of agency is either between us, or in both of us. In my ideal, my partner would have their own ways and thoughts and opinions and feelings about this, and would come to the table with their own needs and ideals, and then we'd figure out what works for both of us together.
But instead it feels incredibly lonely and isolating to feel like my partner is looking to me for an answer on how to 'solve' or 'direct' our conflicts. It also feels tiring and exhausting, because I feel like if I have a firm grip on being emotionally healthy, then working through conflicts feels easy and great... but if I slip up, then conflicts deepen. That means that I feel like there's no 'safety net' underneath me, and as if all of the responsibility of working through conflict is on me, and that I have to be perfect & without mistakes.
There's, of course, a gender (and age) aspect to this as well. This is a cis hetero relationship; my partner is a white cis woman and I'm a POC cis man. We are in our late 20s/early 30s (I am older). So when I feel like I'm pushed into an emotional lead role, I feel like I'm also being asked to amplify & align with gender roles that I didn't ask for -- and to be honest, this makes me a bit resentful.
I have communicated all of this to my partner explicitly. They say they want that too. But we still get stuck in the same patterns. And I don't feel like anything changes.
3) Metapattern: Am I actually making things worse?
When the first two patterns happen, I feel sad, lonely, isolated, exhausted.. and then I start to feel resentful and upset and angry because I think that my partner is being "passive". I'll try to articulate my feelings about this, and then it won't go over well.
And then I wonder if I'm getting caught in some sort of larger gender-role trap where I AM indeed actually re-entrenching ourselves into gender roles, because I have this ideal of a balanced partnership of emotional agency, and I'm trying to make it happen. Like, I'm pushing for it because I think it's good, but on some sort of meta-level, maybe I, a man, am arguing for 'what I think is right' to my female partner? Am I inadvertently entrenching an overfunctioning/underfunctioning dynamic? Should I back off and accept these patterns as what the relationship is? I mean, if she wants a relationship with an emotional lead, who am I to change that?
Also, am I crowding them / not giving them enough space within the relationship to hold agency and do things / make mistakes? I don't think so? But maybe I am inadvertently? I could try doing this more by being less specific about what I want, talking about these patterns less, erring on the edge of undercommunication..
Another pattern: I also hold some resentment because I feel like this is really important to me, so I try to do a lot of reading. I've read some of the Gottmans' stuff, Non Violent Communication, Conflict Is Not Abuse. I've tried to model and share ways of communicating and facilitation that I've seen work in other non-relationship contexts. I've seen therapists here and there over the years, but am actively looking for one lately; they've never seen a therapist. I feel like I'm more pulling and asking for better communication and doing the work to read about it and requesting to go to couples therapy, etc.
And then again, I wonder: am I an overcommunicator? Am I forcing things? If I'm being honest to myself, I definitely have expectations that my partner will actively bring ideas to the table and that we'll find a happy middle ground as equals. I have expectations that I can make mistakes and my partner will catch me, or push back against me, and tell me what I'm doing wrong. (Gosh, if my partner were to stop us in a conversation and to gently and firmly tell me that she'd like me to communicate differently, that would be a breath of fresh air. I would love it. That sounds so nice it makes me tear up.)
--
I love them a great deal, and I know that they love me. I trust them, and know that they trust me. They can be a great listener and are down to try things. We have really rich and good conversations about sex and gender and race. Underlying our relationship is a pretty solid desire to make things work together.
I try to remind myself that the patriarchy and sexism shapes both of us, and that there are systematic and social forces that has told my partner, as a woman, that she should be responsive/passive, and that those same forces make me more comfortable with being proactive / having agency. It's tricky, because on other fronts it can be balanced; they're more of an extrovert and I'm more of an introvert, they're white and I'm a poc. But I am also older. So I am aware and trying to be more aware of the power dynamics that we hold within our relationships. I am trying to be patent and open and understanding. I am trying to work on myself also, independently of the relationship.
Much of the time, things are really good. Sometimes we will go near these patterns, but will pull ourselves out. But when one of us is tired/hungry/sad/stressed, we can fall into these patterns and swirl for a while. And again, in those patterns, I feel incredibly lonely, trapped, and isolated.
So in the end, I'm not sure what to do.
- Should I work on myself primarily?
- Should I focus less on 'changing' our relationship and set some emotional distance?
- Should I try to change the way I communicate to better share what I am feeling?
- Should I do less and back off so to create more space?
- Should I try to be more explicit about what I want?
- Should I fundamentally accept this relationship for what it is and let go of my expectations, and let whatever emotional dynamics might happen to happen?
Any and all thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks.
I am often the you in relationships, taking the lead and with higher expectations for emotional and communicative reciprocity.
I think a good barometer for me has been reviewing:
- do I have unresolved issues that I’m not dealing with on a personal level? (BTW - Yes. Focusing on personal therapy, rather than dumping all my angst into attempting to fix my relationships while I’m in them, has been tough but good. It’s not very natural for me to go outside of the relationship for support, and it’s not super fun to work on deeply rooted traumas — but, it’s certainly help me see, among many other things, that finding “the perfect partner” isn’t possible nor would it complete my life). And also patterns of mine where I try to make myself the leader and invaluable, and make the two of us these bastions is perfect and honest communication. (None of which is realistic or healthy expectations)
- have I already put a ton of work into coming my partners way, doing my best to communicate/approach conflict/resolve differences in a way that works for them?
- do we routinely have the same dynamic of disagreements/upsets/conflict that go totally unresolved or get brought up only passive aggressively if I don’t explicitly take the lead on it?
Looking at those criteria, it becomes easier to not see your partner as negative or hurtful or unloving, but rather just as... completely different to your wants and needs. And ultimately possibly incompatible with a core component of who you are and what you want as a partner, despite having great other traits that you love and value.
YMMV but I do think personal therapy has helped and is helping me gain a better more grounded sense of myself so that I don’t have to twist myself into knots figuring out how to fix everything. It’s slow going and not super fun but definitely better than being the repressed, conflicted doormat in my relationships and in life. One upside to putting your time and energy into finding a really good and compatible personal therapist is that often patterns in one realm (love) help you see and start to shift patterns in another (work, family, etc).
And for a quick and dirty from a random internet stranger:
So in the end, I'm not sure what to do.
- Should I work on myself primarily?
Yes.
- Should I focus less on 'changing' our relationship and set some emotional distance?
Probably a good idea at least in the short term.
- Should I try to change the way I communicate to better share what I am feeling?
Yes in the sense that spending more time working out what you want and feel with a therapist rather than partner will probably get you farther so that you can be more decicisve and direct with your partner
- Should I do less and back off so to create more space?
Yes, mostly because it’s jusy too draining and unsustainable to continue being the sole lead
- Should I try to be more explicit about what I want?
Yes but again, with someone like a counselor or therapist who can help identify your own patterns in a you-centered way. With your partner, yes sure be more explicit — if that means being more concise. If it means spending even more time explaining things your partner doesn’t want to hear, then no. (Not because your view is invalid but because it’s such a massive timesuck
- Should I fundamentally accept this relationship for what it is Yesand let go of my expectations Yes, and let whatever emotional dynamics might happen to happen? Yes. BUT in my experience this is really really hard to do without support from an objective and qualified third party so again, therapist.
TL;DR Spend some of this substantial and well meaning relationship energy on yourself.
posted by seemoorglass at 5:07 AM on June 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
I think a good barometer for me has been reviewing:
- do I have unresolved issues that I’m not dealing with on a personal level? (BTW - Yes. Focusing on personal therapy, rather than dumping all my angst into attempting to fix my relationships while I’m in them, has been tough but good. It’s not very natural for me to go outside of the relationship for support, and it’s not super fun to work on deeply rooted traumas — but, it’s certainly help me see, among many other things, that finding “the perfect partner” isn’t possible nor would it complete my life). And also patterns of mine where I try to make myself the leader and invaluable, and make the two of us these bastions is perfect and honest communication. (None of which is realistic or healthy expectations)
- have I already put a ton of work into coming my partners way, doing my best to communicate/approach conflict/resolve differences in a way that works for them?
- do we routinely have the same dynamic of disagreements/upsets/conflict that go totally unresolved or get brought up only passive aggressively if I don’t explicitly take the lead on it?
Looking at those criteria, it becomes easier to not see your partner as negative or hurtful or unloving, but rather just as... completely different to your wants and needs. And ultimately possibly incompatible with a core component of who you are and what you want as a partner, despite having great other traits that you love and value.
YMMV but I do think personal therapy has helped and is helping me gain a better more grounded sense of myself so that I don’t have to twist myself into knots figuring out how to fix everything. It’s slow going and not super fun but definitely better than being the repressed, conflicted doormat in my relationships and in life. One upside to putting your time and energy into finding a really good and compatible personal therapist is that often patterns in one realm (love) help you see and start to shift patterns in another (work, family, etc).
And for a quick and dirty from a random internet stranger:
So in the end, I'm not sure what to do.
- Should I work on myself primarily?
Yes.
- Should I focus less on 'changing' our relationship and set some emotional distance?
Probably a good idea at least in the short term.
- Should I try to change the way I communicate to better share what I am feeling?
Yes in the sense that spending more time working out what you want and feel with a therapist rather than partner will probably get you farther so that you can be more decicisve and direct with your partner
- Should I do less and back off so to create more space?
Yes, mostly because it’s jusy too draining and unsustainable to continue being the sole lead
- Should I try to be more explicit about what I want?
Yes but again, with someone like a counselor or therapist who can help identify your own patterns in a you-centered way. With your partner, yes sure be more explicit — if that means being more concise. If it means spending even more time explaining things your partner doesn’t want to hear, then no. (Not because your view is invalid but because it’s such a massive timesuck
- Should I fundamentally accept this relationship for what it is Yesand let go of my expectations Yes, and let whatever emotional dynamics might happen to happen? Yes. BUT in my experience this is really really hard to do without support from an objective and qualified third party so again, therapist.
TL;DR Spend some of this substantial and well meaning relationship energy on yourself.
posted by seemoorglass at 5:07 AM on June 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
Well, I'm in a straight appearing relationship as the woman and I relate a lot to what you said in feeling like I have to be the adult guiding the emotional-relational growth. I'm also the younger partner.
So maybe this is not a gender thing. Maybe you value emotional-relational growth more than your partner. Maybe they didn't grow up in a home where this kind of communication happened. Maybe they care less. Maybe they aren't a verbal person. Maybe they aren't introspective. We don't know.
I can tell you that not every need gets met in a primary relationship. I started going elsewhere for some of my deeper growth oriented needs, so that I'm not overwhelming my relationship with it. Then what's left feels easier for the relationship to bear. Also, over time my partner has started to communicate this way more. But not proactively. I still have to ask, what needs aren't getting met or tell me something you feel vulnerable about. Half the time when I say what needs aren't getting met he doesn't have an answer.
So let go of the idea that this is a gender thing, unless I'm playing out paternalism myself and just don't realize. To me I have a high need for emotional intimacy which I experience through mindful collaboration around needs and values in relationship. My partner doesn't need this as much and is a bit avoidant. The less I push, the more he feels safe to start doing more of it because I've explained over time when there isn't a "problem" that this is important for me to feel connected.
posted by crunchy potato at 5:57 AM on June 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
So maybe this is not a gender thing. Maybe you value emotional-relational growth more than your partner. Maybe they didn't grow up in a home where this kind of communication happened. Maybe they care less. Maybe they aren't a verbal person. Maybe they aren't introspective. We don't know.
I can tell you that not every need gets met in a primary relationship. I started going elsewhere for some of my deeper growth oriented needs, so that I'm not overwhelming my relationship with it. Then what's left feels easier for the relationship to bear. Also, over time my partner has started to communicate this way more. But not proactively. I still have to ask, what needs aren't getting met or tell me something you feel vulnerable about. Half the time when I say what needs aren't getting met he doesn't have an answer.
So let go of the idea that this is a gender thing, unless I'm playing out paternalism myself and just don't realize. To me I have a high need for emotional intimacy which I experience through mindful collaboration around needs and values in relationship. My partner doesn't need this as much and is a bit avoidant. The less I push, the more he feels safe to start doing more of it because I've explained over time when there isn't a "problem" that this is important for me to feel connected.
posted by crunchy potato at 5:57 AM on June 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
You haven't provided a whole lot of concrete examples of situations so I'm kind of taking your general pattern remarks and making a few assumptions.
But...this pattern where it goes like this:
You: *have feeling*
You: express feeling
Your partner: Oh no! What can I do?
You: don't want to tell her what to do
Your partner: *gives up*
Does not to me read like you are overfunctioning. It reads to me like you are underfunctioning in that, for me it goes like this more:
Me: *have feeling*
Me: does things that help with the feeling, only one of which is to communicate it, and that is actually reasonably rare
Me: tells partner "wow, today I was feeling really frustrated but then when I said hey, let's take a ten minute break so I can go look at the lilacs, I felt better:
Partner: Oh you were frustrated? I thought you were really wanting to get things done...next time let's...
I think your belief is that if you aren't heard right at the very moment you are having a feeling, you aren't heard. I would encourage you to explore this in therapy or with some friends outside of your relationship. To me that's actually very under-functional as you are treating your partner a bit like a sponge, who is supposed to be ready at any moment to help you "feel heard."
This doesn't go for a relationship where you actually aren't heard, but I don't get that from your partner's responses. When your partner asks you what she can do, that's legit listening.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:57 AM on June 15, 2019 [11 favorites]
But...this pattern where it goes like this:
You: *have feeling*
You: express feeling
Your partner: Oh no! What can I do?
You: don't want to tell her what to do
Your partner: *gives up*
Does not to me read like you are overfunctioning. It reads to me like you are underfunctioning in that, for me it goes like this more:
Me: *have feeling*
Me: does things that help with the feeling, only one of which is to communicate it, and that is actually reasonably rare
Me: tells partner "wow, today I was feeling really frustrated but then when I said hey, let's take a ten minute break so I can go look at the lilacs, I felt better:
Partner: Oh you were frustrated? I thought you were really wanting to get things done...next time let's...
I think your belief is that if you aren't heard right at the very moment you are having a feeling, you aren't heard. I would encourage you to explore this in therapy or with some friends outside of your relationship. To me that's actually very under-functional as you are treating your partner a bit like a sponge, who is supposed to be ready at any moment to help you "feel heard."
This doesn't go for a relationship where you actually aren't heard, but I don't get that from your partner's responses. When your partner asks you what she can do, that's legit listening.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:57 AM on June 15, 2019 [11 favorites]
It sounds like you are putting a very large amount of thought and time into this issue. I don’t get the sense from this question that your partner is putting the same amount of time in. Does she express feelings about your relationship dynamic (whether they are worries or satisfaction with it)? Does she feel like she gets stuck in a role in the dynamic?
I’d suggest something counterintuitive—what if you try to focus on this less? It seems like your are over-focused on this and maybe even overthinking it a bit if your relationship is otherwise great. Take a few weeks and just try living in the moment without interpreting your dynamic into a pattern. Maybe even try to express your feelings without trying to control them into the optimal way to express feelings (“I feel” statements, etc). Try not to have a meta discussion with your partner about your dynamic. Just be, live in the moment, etc. Maybe something unexpected will happen.
posted by sallybrown at 6:57 AM on June 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
I’d suggest something counterintuitive—what if you try to focus on this less? It seems like your are over-focused on this and maybe even overthinking it a bit if your relationship is otherwise great. Take a few weeks and just try living in the moment without interpreting your dynamic into a pattern. Maybe even try to express your feelings without trying to control them into the optimal way to express feelings (“I feel” statements, etc). Try not to have a meta discussion with your partner about your dynamic. Just be, live in the moment, etc. Maybe something unexpected will happen.
posted by sallybrown at 6:57 AM on June 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
. In my ideal, my partner would have their own ways and thoughts and opinions and feelings about this, and would come to the table with their own needs and ideals, and then we'd figure out what works for both of us together
what this sounds like is that you are dissatisfied with some unspecified range of things, and your partner is responsive and eager to please and change, but this upsets you because you want her to be equally dissatisfied with some overlapping range of things so that you can also adapt and change and not feel demanding all the time.
but
what if she isn't actually having a lot of urgent feelings about conflict? like what if you feel resentful not because she isn't "communicating" at the same intricate level you are, but because she isn't having the same kind of deep emotional turmoil about the relationship and is instead basically pretty ok? it is easier to be upset that she isn't creative or communicative or proactive than to be upset that she isn't unhappy enough.
the other thing that jumps out is that she is taking the leadership role of fixer, even though you explicitly describe yourself as unwillingly owning that role: you express an emotion and she assumes her job is to make it better. this is a personality trait lots of women have, especially in relationships. but the classic cultural mythology is that only men are like this, being hard-headed and practical and solutions-focused, so nobody notices or gives credit when women do it. in this one area you are doing the classic feminine thing of wanting to express yourself as a goal in itself, and she is doing the classic masculine thing of trying to identify and solve a problem. why do you perceive this as her putting the responsibility on you, instead of her taking responsibility -- manfully suppressing her own emotions in order to tend to yours?
not that it's necessarily a good idea when women do it, either. but if you're too worried about falling into traditional gender roles, you won't notice when the opposite is happening.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:30 AM on June 15, 2019 [14 favorites]
what this sounds like is that you are dissatisfied with some unspecified range of things, and your partner is responsive and eager to please and change, but this upsets you because you want her to be equally dissatisfied with some overlapping range of things so that you can also adapt and change and not feel demanding all the time.
but
what if she isn't actually having a lot of urgent feelings about conflict? like what if you feel resentful not because she isn't "communicating" at the same intricate level you are, but because she isn't having the same kind of deep emotional turmoil about the relationship and is instead basically pretty ok? it is easier to be upset that she isn't creative or communicative or proactive than to be upset that she isn't unhappy enough.
the other thing that jumps out is that she is taking the leadership role of fixer, even though you explicitly describe yourself as unwillingly owning that role: you express an emotion and she assumes her job is to make it better. this is a personality trait lots of women have, especially in relationships. but the classic cultural mythology is that only men are like this, being hard-headed and practical and solutions-focused, so nobody notices or gives credit when women do it. in this one area you are doing the classic feminine thing of wanting to express yourself as a goal in itself, and she is doing the classic masculine thing of trying to identify and solve a problem. why do you perceive this as her putting the responsibility on you, instead of her taking responsibility -- manfully suppressing her own emotions in order to tend to yours?
not that it's necessarily a good idea when women do it, either. but if you're too worried about falling into traditional gender roles, you won't notice when the opposite is happening.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:30 AM on June 15, 2019 [14 favorites]
That is, my partner will ask me, "do you want me to do X?", "was I wrong to say/do Y?", "what do you want me to do?" and similar questions.
What happens if you say, "I'd love for you to just listen to me for 10 minutes so I can sort out my feelings" or, "I'd love a hug," or something along those lines? Your post is a little vague, but it seems like you're not explicitly asking for what you need and you're feeling resentful that she's not reading your mind about what you need. It may be that you need to take more responsibility for identifying and communicating your needs. (Or not... as others have said, your post is a little vague and abstract. I do agree with others that having a therapist to talk through this stuff in an ongoing way would likely be helpful.)
posted by lazuli at 9:18 AM on June 15, 2019 [1 favorite]
What happens if you say, "I'd love for you to just listen to me for 10 minutes so I can sort out my feelings" or, "I'd love a hug," or something along those lines? Your post is a little vague, but it seems like you're not explicitly asking for what you need and you're feeling resentful that she's not reading your mind about what you need. It may be that you need to take more responsibility for identifying and communicating your needs. (Or not... as others have said, your post is a little vague and abstract. I do agree with others that having a therapist to talk through this stuff in an ongoing way would likely be helpful.)
posted by lazuli at 9:18 AM on June 15, 2019 [1 favorite]
When someone likes to talk about their feelings/air their grievances A LOT, to a person who doesn’t take that same approach, it can start to feel like personal criticisms, no matter how carefully it’s couched in therapy-speak. I’m not surprised their response is to ask for guidance— if someone I loved continually had a lot of complaints about me, naturally I want to know what they’d prefer I do. Does that ring true for your situation? What does your partner say?
posted by kapers at 10:20 AM on June 15, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by kapers at 10:20 AM on June 15, 2019 [4 favorites]
Because you didn’t include examples, it’s a bit hard to pin down the actual dynamic. Is there a chance that you’re trying to use your partner as a therapist surrogate? Is your desire to communicate a lot driven by wanting to process all of your emotional/mental stuff with her? While communication is very important to a relationship, it’s not ok to let that bleed into pushing your partner into being a therapist’s ear. Maybe accelerate your search for a new therapist and work on your issues with them before re-engineering your relationship.
posted by quince at 2:08 PM on June 15, 2019
posted by quince at 2:08 PM on June 15, 2019
I think it's natural for a loved one to ask how they can help, or do things differently, when someone is upset.
I personally would be frustrated if my husband was constantly telling me he was angry about something, or frustrated, etc. and I offered to help and was rebuffed.
People see a problem, they want to fix it. It takes a lot to go against this instinct, especially since women are conditioned to smooth things over.
What I do, when I find myself becoming snappish, is just say, "I'm crabby, shopping at this store is making me crabby, and I just want to get it done and get home and chill out." Sometimes I'm crabby if I am not feeling well, hungry, tired, worried about something else, if so I'll say, "ugh, so hungry!" or "need a drink of water, let's grab some bottled water at the checkout."
Living with someone often entails conflicts, minor and otherwise. I pick and choose my battles. My husband spills his coffee frequently, it splashes over the side of his cup as he's walking back to his chair. I've mentioned it before, but now I just wipe it up when I see it (as he cannot comfortably bend over due to physical limitations), and say, "well, at least it doesn't have sugar in it." Because it's just coffee, and he isn't doing it on purpose.
It would be good to have some concrete examples, as other posters have noted. Are these conflicts small things, or big things? Are your statements being framed in a way like, "when you throw your clothes on the floor, I feel angry," or "I feel angry when I see clothes on the floor." Because I would perceive that as a criticism. Or anything that would relate to some action I was doing, or something I was saying.
Also, maybe she doesn't have the bandwidth to get into deep discussions about feelings all the time. Or is frustrated due to wanting to help and then being told not to help?
One thing I might say is "I need to vent right now, do you have time to just listen and not try to solve it?" A lot of times, tho', I might do that about some subject we both agree on (something in the news, for instance), or if I am having an issue with a friend or family member. If I am upset with my husband, I will talk to a close friend who is A) not going to egg me on and tell me my husband is a jerk and B) just listens and agrees that being married can be hard sometimes, their spouse does a similar thing, then I feel validated, but not further upset or angry with my husband. I get some perspective, then I can laugh about it or shrug it off. Not to say I never express my feelings to him, but sometimes it helps to talk to a friend.
You could also save it up, write things down in a journal, and have a talk after you've worked through your emotions (maybe thing will still be an issue by then, maybe it won't). Develop a ritual, like checking in with each other over brunch on Sunday mornings, which gives you a chance to be heard, but limits these types of discussions, because they can be exhausting to a person who isn't deeply into this stuff. It could also be the age difference, or that your partner has never gotten into this stuff, so you could ask her to read a book, or at least skim through the cliff notes or read a couple of articles online. Sometimes people get into things at different stages of their lives, and sometimes they have zero interest in pursuing them, are you prepared to accept the fact that she may never want to read the books or delve into the details?
There's a quote, "least said, soonest mended," which means if you are having a tiff or disagreement, go to your corners and cool down, and then don't rehash things later. Of course, this applies to things like spilled coffee and dirty clothes on the floor, not deeper issues, like people cutting each other down or having affairs. But meta-discussions on the nuances of communication might be a bit too much for one person to take in all the time. I'd definitely recommend talking to a therapist about this, because that's their job, and they'd probably be happy to find someone who is paying attention to communication.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 1:34 AM on June 16, 2019
I personally would be frustrated if my husband was constantly telling me he was angry about something, or frustrated, etc. and I offered to help and was rebuffed.
People see a problem, they want to fix it. It takes a lot to go against this instinct, especially since women are conditioned to smooth things over.
What I do, when I find myself becoming snappish, is just say, "I'm crabby, shopping at this store is making me crabby, and I just want to get it done and get home and chill out." Sometimes I'm crabby if I am not feeling well, hungry, tired, worried about something else, if so I'll say, "ugh, so hungry!" or "need a drink of water, let's grab some bottled water at the checkout."
Living with someone often entails conflicts, minor and otherwise. I pick and choose my battles. My husband spills his coffee frequently, it splashes over the side of his cup as he's walking back to his chair. I've mentioned it before, but now I just wipe it up when I see it (as he cannot comfortably bend over due to physical limitations), and say, "well, at least it doesn't have sugar in it." Because it's just coffee, and he isn't doing it on purpose.
It would be good to have some concrete examples, as other posters have noted. Are these conflicts small things, or big things? Are your statements being framed in a way like, "when you throw your clothes on the floor, I feel angry," or "I feel angry when I see clothes on the floor." Because I would perceive that as a criticism. Or anything that would relate to some action I was doing, or something I was saying.
Also, maybe she doesn't have the bandwidth to get into deep discussions about feelings all the time. Or is frustrated due to wanting to help and then being told not to help?
One thing I might say is "I need to vent right now, do you have time to just listen and not try to solve it?" A lot of times, tho', I might do that about some subject we both agree on (something in the news, for instance), or if I am having an issue with a friend or family member. If I am upset with my husband, I will talk to a close friend who is A) not going to egg me on and tell me my husband is a jerk and B) just listens and agrees that being married can be hard sometimes, their spouse does a similar thing, then I feel validated, but not further upset or angry with my husband. I get some perspective, then I can laugh about it or shrug it off. Not to say I never express my feelings to him, but sometimes it helps to talk to a friend.
You could also save it up, write things down in a journal, and have a talk after you've worked through your emotions (maybe thing will still be an issue by then, maybe it won't). Develop a ritual, like checking in with each other over brunch on Sunday mornings, which gives you a chance to be heard, but limits these types of discussions, because they can be exhausting to a person who isn't deeply into this stuff. It could also be the age difference, or that your partner has never gotten into this stuff, so you could ask her to read a book, or at least skim through the cliff notes or read a couple of articles online. Sometimes people get into things at different stages of their lives, and sometimes they have zero interest in pursuing them, are you prepared to accept the fact that she may never want to read the books or delve into the details?
There's a quote, "least said, soonest mended," which means if you are having a tiff or disagreement, go to your corners and cool down, and then don't rehash things later. Of course, this applies to things like spilled coffee and dirty clothes on the floor, not deeper issues, like people cutting each other down or having affairs. But meta-discussions on the nuances of communication might be a bit too much for one person to take in all the time. I'd definitely recommend talking to a therapist about this, because that's their job, and they'd probably be happy to find someone who is paying attention to communication.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 1:34 AM on June 16, 2019
Couples therapy sounds like a great idea here, not because there's anything especially messed up about this situation, but because you seem to be craving an opportunity to work on some stuff and I think couples therapy might be the best opportunity.
I think a lot of people think of couples therapy as something you do when The Relationship Is Broken or when Your Partner Is Doing It Wrong, and it doesn't have to be like that. It can just be space to get perspective on the wants and needs and hangups you're bringing to the relationship. And it sounds like you're bringing in a lot of wants and needs and hangups, and wishing you had more perspective on them.
It might help, when you ask, to frame it as something you want or need: not "Partner, you are screwing this up and need help" or "Partner, we have this conflict and we need to solve it," but "Partner, I'm having a lot of confusing feelings about this, and I think my confusion is making things frustrating for you too, and it would be amazing if you'd come help me figure out what my deal is."
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:08 AM on June 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think a lot of people think of couples therapy as something you do when The Relationship Is Broken or when Your Partner Is Doing It Wrong, and it doesn't have to be like that. It can just be space to get perspective on the wants and needs and hangups you're bringing to the relationship. And it sounds like you're bringing in a lot of wants and needs and hangups, and wishing you had more perspective on them.
It might help, when you ask, to frame it as something you want or need: not "Partner, you are screwing this up and need help" or "Partner, we have this conflict and we need to solve it," but "Partner, I'm having a lot of confusing feelings about this, and I think my confusion is making things frustrating for you too, and it would be amazing if you'd come help me figure out what my deal is."
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:08 AM on June 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
Hmmm, your issues 1 and 2 really resonated with me - my partner shares some of those traits. I posted this question with similar themes a short time ago, and that's where I learned about children of narcissists. It was very eye-opening for me. I suggest you read through that question and its answers; it may help you view/approach your partner differently. (BTW I am female and my partner is male ).
posted by puppet du sock at 7:33 PM on June 16, 2019
posted by puppet du sock at 7:33 PM on June 16, 2019
Since you've read the Gottman's older stuff, you might want to try their newest book which is going on 8 dates where you specifically work through these issues. The first is on trust and commitment, the second is about conflict. These two would help exactly what you describe.
When you begin to understand how their parents were vs. how yours were, you start to understand why they approach commitment or conflict the way they do.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:02 AM on June 17, 2019
When you begin to understand how their parents were vs. how yours were, you start to understand why they approach commitment or conflict the way they do.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:02 AM on June 17, 2019
A few things jump out at me about your question. You say:
I try my best to use 'I feel' statements, to try to not make observations and not interpretations (ala NVC).
My own experience is that these sorts of 'I feel' statements do not work on me the way people want them to. What I mean by that is that if someone says to me 'when you do X I feel sad,' it seems pretty clear to me that what they're really saying is that they want me to stop doing X. And on the one hand, I know that the point is precisely to avoid just telling me to stop doing something. But on the other hand... c'mon. If you tell me it makes you feel sad when I do something, what kind of monster would I be if I kept doing that?
More generally, it sounds like there's a lot of theory here - like you do a ton of reading and thinking about the kind of relationship that you want, and then bring that to your partner. Which isn't a bad thing! But I wonder if so much reliance on external sources leads to you attempting to impose a structure on your relationship from the outside. The main thing I'd want to know is whether you think your relationship has significant problems outside of these issues, and whether or not your partner would say that it does. Because this sounds like quite a bit of processing and relationship discussions if your relationship isn't in serious trouble. Maybe give yourself a break - take a few months in which you don't try to work on your relationship at all, and see what that's like.
posted by Ragged Richard at 1:18 PM on June 17, 2019
I try my best to use 'I feel' statements, to try to not make observations and not interpretations (ala NVC).
My own experience is that these sorts of 'I feel' statements do not work on me the way people want them to. What I mean by that is that if someone says to me 'when you do X I feel sad,' it seems pretty clear to me that what they're really saying is that they want me to stop doing X. And on the one hand, I know that the point is precisely to avoid just telling me to stop doing something. But on the other hand... c'mon. If you tell me it makes you feel sad when I do something, what kind of monster would I be if I kept doing that?
More generally, it sounds like there's a lot of theory here - like you do a ton of reading and thinking about the kind of relationship that you want, and then bring that to your partner. Which isn't a bad thing! But I wonder if so much reliance on external sources leads to you attempting to impose a structure on your relationship from the outside. The main thing I'd want to know is whether you think your relationship has significant problems outside of these issues, and whether or not your partner would say that it does. Because this sounds like quite a bit of processing and relationship discussions if your relationship isn't in serious trouble. Maybe give yourself a break - take a few months in which you don't try to work on your relationship at all, and see what that's like.
posted by Ragged Richard at 1:18 PM on June 17, 2019
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So, no, I don't think being more explicit is a great idea. I see a recurring pattern on metafilter of people believing that if they just communicate enough what exactly it is they want their partner will suddenly get it, and everything will be fine. I am no expert but I generally think this is unrealistic; your partner is who she is. Maybe she will change, maybe she won't, but I don't think that you explaining, specifically, exactly what you require her to do is likely to encourage positive change in the long run. On the other hand, it could potentially breed resentment.
And if you're really interested in gender roles, think about the way that women are conditioned to believe that they should change themselves to fit whatever image of them it is that their partner has in their head.
This isn't to say that your partner isn't making mistakes too, but just that maybe a different strategy could be to dial back the analysis of the relationship.
posted by thereader at 1:23 AM on June 15, 2019 [9 favorites]