How to do deal with someone not dealing with someone?
June 14, 2019 5:16 AM Subscribe
My partner’s family member is a depressed alcoholic who has been on a downward spiral as of late. How can I best support my partner when it feels like they are completely checked out?
My partner, let’s call him Alvin, and I have been together for 6 years. His family lives on the other side of the country, including his brother, Bob. Bob has a long history of substance abuse, depression, and anxiety. He went to rehab years ago for the opioid use, but has always continued to drink heavily. Recently Alvin texted me that Bob had driven home drunk—Bob called him on the tail end of his drive home (he already has a DUI). Since then, any attempts on my part to talk to Alvin about Bob have been stonewalled. Alvin hasn’t spoken with Bob since, or with any of their other family members. This is incredibly frustrating and upsetting to me, chiefly because Bob is putting his own and OTHER PEOPLES’ LIVES at risk, and that this is now a pattern of behavior for him.
I know that Alvin’s preferred way of dealing with a problem involves a lot of introspection while he figures out how he feels/what to do. This is pretty much the opposite of how I cope with a difficult situation, and I need help figuring out 1)the actual steps we could take to help Bob (get his driver’s license taken away? get him back into rehab? Bob is in Washington) and 2)how to best deal with what feels like complete denial and inaction on Alvin’s part. How do I best support Alvin when it seems like he does not want my support or to confront this issue? Bob and I chat occasionally on Messenger, and it's taking a lot of willpower to stop myself from reaching out to him on there.
My partner, let’s call him Alvin, and I have been together for 6 years. His family lives on the other side of the country, including his brother, Bob. Bob has a long history of substance abuse, depression, and anxiety. He went to rehab years ago for the opioid use, but has always continued to drink heavily. Recently Alvin texted me that Bob had driven home drunk—Bob called him on the tail end of his drive home (he already has a DUI). Since then, any attempts on my part to talk to Alvin about Bob have been stonewalled. Alvin hasn’t spoken with Bob since, or with any of their other family members. This is incredibly frustrating and upsetting to me, chiefly because Bob is putting his own and OTHER PEOPLES’ LIVES at risk, and that this is now a pattern of behavior for him.
I know that Alvin’s preferred way of dealing with a problem involves a lot of introspection while he figures out how he feels/what to do. This is pretty much the opposite of how I cope with a difficult situation, and I need help figuring out 1)the actual steps we could take to help Bob (get his driver’s license taken away? get him back into rehab? Bob is in Washington) and 2)how to best deal with what feels like complete denial and inaction on Alvin’s part. How do I best support Alvin when it seems like he does not want my support or to confront this issue? Bob and I chat occasionally on Messenger, and it's taking a lot of willpower to stop myself from reaching out to him on there.
You need to respect your partner's right to step away. This is not about you. This is about his relationship with his brother, and dealing with an alcoholic family member. One or both of you may want to attend a support group for families of alcoholics.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:49 AM on June 14, 2019 [24 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 5:49 AM on June 14, 2019 [24 favorites]
Alvin has been dealing with Bob and his issues far longer than you have even known Alvin. And Alvin lives on the other side of the country from where Bob and the rest of the family live. Where is the rest of the family in this? Why are they not intervening with Bob? Could it be that they've already done this many times and are burned out? What's Alvin supposed to do? Leave everything, fly across the country and try to get Bob to straighten out and fly right for the umpteenth time? And, yeah, it may be that Bob's substance abuse problems will put other people at risk. That sucks, but hey -- there are hundreds of people with substance abuse problems putting other people at risk right in your own neighborhood and I'm guessing you don't spend every weekend volunteering at the local clinic. If Alvin has decided that he's had enough of dealing with Bob's substance abuse problems, that's something you should respect. Maybe he's just had enough. Or maybe that's not the relationship he has with Bob. Regardless, the best way for you to support Alvin in this is by supporting Alvin, and it sounds like that involves letting go of your notions of what he should do or what you think you would do if you were in his (incompletely understood) shoes. Bob and his problems are not your problems; and fundamentally they aren't Alvin's problems either.
posted by slkinsey at 5:52 AM on June 14, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by slkinsey at 5:52 AM on June 14, 2019 [7 favorites]
Al Anon is a very good place for people like me who want to control other people for extremely good reasons and are frustrated that we cannot. I highly recommend that you consider going to six different meetings as close together as possible to see if you find a meeting that works for you. MeMail me if you’d like to know how an atheist found help in a 12-step program for the friends and family members of alcoholics. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 6:00 AM on June 14, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 6:00 AM on June 14, 2019 [12 favorites]
You support Alvin by letting him deal with it in his preferred manner, which is giving him time for "a lot of introspection while he figures out how he feels/what to do."
I suspect I'm more like Alvin. What you perceive as denial/inaction may be processing and thinking through 1)What I'd like to happen 2) what is realistically going to happen 3) what I can feasibly do to nudge 2 closer to 1 and 4) how much of 3 I am willing to do. Immediately doing something for the sake of doing something feels stressful to me. Especially when it's dealing with something over which I do not have a lot of direct control, like someone else's addiction. This is Alvin's brother, so he gets to take the lead. Both because he has more experience and because his is a smaller circle right now.
If it would make you feel better, perhaps there are some quiet background activities you can do. Like finding resources in case he asks for them or taking over some of the daily adulting: planning dinners, light cleaning, laundry (unless those are his thinking/soothing activities), for a few days.
posted by ghost phoneme at 6:01 AM on June 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
I suspect I'm more like Alvin. What you perceive as denial/inaction may be processing and thinking through 1)What I'd like to happen 2) what is realistically going to happen 3) what I can feasibly do to nudge 2 closer to 1 and 4) how much of 3 I am willing to do. Immediately doing something for the sake of doing something feels stressful to me. Especially when it's dealing with something over which I do not have a lot of direct control, like someone else's addiction. This is Alvin's brother, so he gets to take the lead. Both because he has more experience and because his is a smaller circle right now.
If it would make you feel better, perhaps there are some quiet background activities you can do. Like finding resources in case he asks for them or taking over some of the daily adulting: planning dinners, light cleaning, laundry (unless those are his thinking/soothing activities), for a few days.
posted by ghost phoneme at 6:01 AM on June 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
The best way to support Alvin is by asking Alvin how you can support him. It sounds like probably what he wants is time and space to work through his feelings, but it's okay to ask - once, and probably only once - whether there's anything else/additional you can be doing to help him deal with his family right now.
You cannot do anything for Bob until/unless Bob is motivated to get help. You cannot get his license taken away. You cannot make him go to rehab.
The only piece of this you can reasonably engage with right now is your own relationship with Bob, so this is a good time to think about what boundaries you want to hold. Will you talk to Bob if he's drunk when he calls/chats with you? Will you engage with him if he tries to get you to talk to Alvin for him, or will you refuse to be the go-between? Spend some time thinking about these questions before Bob is suddenly drunk in your messages asking you why his brother isn't talking to him.
posted by Stacey at 6:10 AM on June 14, 2019 [6 favorites]
You cannot do anything for Bob until/unless Bob is motivated to get help. You cannot get his license taken away. You cannot make him go to rehab.
The only piece of this you can reasonably engage with right now is your own relationship with Bob, so this is a good time to think about what boundaries you want to hold. Will you talk to Bob if he's drunk when he calls/chats with you? Will you engage with him if he tries to get you to talk to Alvin for him, or will you refuse to be the go-between? Spend some time thinking about these questions before Bob is suddenly drunk in your messages asking you why his brother isn't talking to him.
posted by Stacey at 6:10 AM on June 14, 2019 [6 favorites]
Each person in this scenario is responsible for themselves, and nobody else. That includes you.
Bob is an adult who cannot be controlled by his brother Alvin.
Alvin is an adult who cannot be controlled by you.
If Alvin is a caring person, he is carrying the burden of his brother's suffering, the suffering of anyone else who may be affected by it now or in the future, and his own grief, which encompasses everything from the brother-brother relationship that might have been to his own impotence in the face of his brother's self-sabotage.
That is a lot to carry. Insisting he process his own emotions differently and insisting that he take actions that he knows to be futile add to your partner's burden.
As Alvin's loving partner, is that what you want to be doing?
posted by headnsouth at 6:42 AM on June 14, 2019 [6 favorites]
Bob is an adult who cannot be controlled by his brother Alvin.
Alvin is an adult who cannot be controlled by you.
If Alvin is a caring person, he is carrying the burden of his brother's suffering, the suffering of anyone else who may be affected by it now or in the future, and his own grief, which encompasses everything from the brother-brother relationship that might have been to his own impotence in the face of his brother's self-sabotage.
That is a lot to carry. Insisting he process his own emotions differently and insisting that he take actions that he knows to be futile add to your partner's burden.
As Alvin's loving partner, is that what you want to be doing?
posted by headnsouth at 6:42 AM on June 14, 2019 [6 favorites]
Come up with the perfect fool-proof plan for saving Bob. It has to be one that will work even if Bob doesn't buy into it, and will not stress Alvin in anyway. It has to be one that you can put into affect at a distance and will not require any participation or buy in from any of the family. It has to be one that will bring immediate mental stability and happiness to Bob.
Until you have a plan as good as that please don't ask someone else who is in much more pain than you are to come up with a solution. I'm so sorry, but what you are doing is asking for magic powers. You want escape from the anxiety and shame and fear, to protect Bob and to protect all the other drivers on the road... Don't you think if there was a good solution, if there was something that would work, Alvin, Bob's parents, other siblings, strangers, the police, the opioid addiction group, kickstarters on the internet, somebody, anybody would have figured it out?
You can assume that someone in Bob's family or in his opioid addiction support gave him the Come-to-Jesus, you can assume that the family has staged and intervention - or if not the family, some of Bob's friends. You can assume that Bob has been to medical professionals in his area to get their support with his mental health issues. You can assume that Bob has spent hours and hours and hours fighting to be functional and safe and happy.
For whatever reason Alvin is not doing what you want. You already understand that Alvin feels everything you do, way more strongly than you do, since this is his brother, his blood, his companion in childhood, someone who has figured in his dreams since he was a child. His feelings about this are way stronger than yours.
What exactly do you want Alvin to do? Show those feelings by raging and crying? Show his anger by phoning Bob and screaming at him over the phone? Alleviate your anxiety by holding you and swearing solemnly that he Will Not Let Bob Drive Drunk Ever Again? If he did that, of course, he would be lying. Do you want him to quit his job, leave you and go to the other side of the country and physically stand between Bob and his liquor, twenty-four seven for the rest of his life?
If Alvin is not showing his feelings about this it is either because he does not feel safe to show his feelings around you, or that he does not feel safe to have those feelings at all. People in deep distress can have a crisis reaction, but most of the time they have to function; to remember to lock the front door, to pick up bananas, to get to work on time, sound attentive when replying to their boss, not upset their spouse by screaming and punching doors. But you can't do that if the only thing in your head is horror and grief and shame about your brother. Rocking and keening, or calling family members for tense unproductive conversations About Bob, or sobbing and begging God to fix it during a night-long session of prayer and woe - you can't do that constantly and stay functional. So if Alvin is looking like he isn't doing anything, doesn't care, has given up - well, very likely he has, because he doesn't want to crash his life as badly as Bob. He has to pick up the pieces of his own emotions and just keep going. That's what Alvin is doing.
To aim the responsibility at Alvin, for Bob's behaviour, or for your anxiety is leaning in instead of leaning out. Bob told Alvin he drove drunk. Bob trusted Alvin enough to tell him this. Alvin, in turn trusted you enough to tell you about this. Alvin is probably trying to keep the lines of communication with Bob open, so that he can perhaps, one day, be able to be of support when that support is what Bob needs. Bob is the one who can least cope with his life, if you lean on him, he will most likely dive at the nearest bottle of liquor. Alvin is in the next circle and he needs support from his people. And then you are in the circle whose can only make things better by supporting Alvin and finding your own support outside, in other places such as a group for families of alcoholics, or here.
Please don't blame Alvin for not reacting in the way you think he should. Please don't make this about you. Your fear and anxiety and frustration are real, and you are entitled to have them and deserve to get relief and support - but not from Alvin, instead from anyone other than those most directly involved in being angry and grieving.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:46 AM on June 14, 2019 [18 favorites]
Until you have a plan as good as that please don't ask someone else who is in much more pain than you are to come up with a solution. I'm so sorry, but what you are doing is asking for magic powers. You want escape from the anxiety and shame and fear, to protect Bob and to protect all the other drivers on the road... Don't you think if there was a good solution, if there was something that would work, Alvin, Bob's parents, other siblings, strangers, the police, the opioid addiction group, kickstarters on the internet, somebody, anybody would have figured it out?
You can assume that someone in Bob's family or in his opioid addiction support gave him the Come-to-Jesus, you can assume that the family has staged and intervention - or if not the family, some of Bob's friends. You can assume that Bob has been to medical professionals in his area to get their support with his mental health issues. You can assume that Bob has spent hours and hours and hours fighting to be functional and safe and happy.
For whatever reason Alvin is not doing what you want. You already understand that Alvin feels everything you do, way more strongly than you do, since this is his brother, his blood, his companion in childhood, someone who has figured in his dreams since he was a child. His feelings about this are way stronger than yours.
What exactly do you want Alvin to do? Show those feelings by raging and crying? Show his anger by phoning Bob and screaming at him over the phone? Alleviate your anxiety by holding you and swearing solemnly that he Will Not Let Bob Drive Drunk Ever Again? If he did that, of course, he would be lying. Do you want him to quit his job, leave you and go to the other side of the country and physically stand between Bob and his liquor, twenty-four seven for the rest of his life?
If Alvin is not showing his feelings about this it is either because he does not feel safe to show his feelings around you, or that he does not feel safe to have those feelings at all. People in deep distress can have a crisis reaction, but most of the time they have to function; to remember to lock the front door, to pick up bananas, to get to work on time, sound attentive when replying to their boss, not upset their spouse by screaming and punching doors. But you can't do that if the only thing in your head is horror and grief and shame about your brother. Rocking and keening, or calling family members for tense unproductive conversations About Bob, or sobbing and begging God to fix it during a night-long session of prayer and woe - you can't do that constantly and stay functional. So if Alvin is looking like he isn't doing anything, doesn't care, has given up - well, very likely he has, because he doesn't want to crash his life as badly as Bob. He has to pick up the pieces of his own emotions and just keep going. That's what Alvin is doing.
To aim the responsibility at Alvin, for Bob's behaviour, or for your anxiety is leaning in instead of leaning out. Bob told Alvin he drove drunk. Bob trusted Alvin enough to tell him this. Alvin, in turn trusted you enough to tell you about this. Alvin is probably trying to keep the lines of communication with Bob open, so that he can perhaps, one day, be able to be of support when that support is what Bob needs. Bob is the one who can least cope with his life, if you lean on him, he will most likely dive at the nearest bottle of liquor. Alvin is in the next circle and he needs support from his people. And then you are in the circle whose can only make things better by supporting Alvin and finding your own support outside, in other places such as a group for families of alcoholics, or here.
Please don't blame Alvin for not reacting in the way you think he should. Please don't make this about you. Your fear and anxiety and frustration are real, and you are entitled to have them and deserve to get relief and support - but not from Alvin, instead from anyone other than those most directly involved in being angry and grieving.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:46 AM on June 14, 2019 [18 favorites]
What do you want Alvin to do? Figure that out not so you can tell him (because you absolutely should NOT tell him) but so you can figure out how to handle your reactions to his very legitimate choices regarding his relationship with his brother.
Do you want him to DO something in particular? Do you want him to FEEL something in particular? Do you want him to ACCEPT or REJECT something in particular?
This is all something you have to work on for yourself, because Alvin is working on his relationship with Bob (or lack thereof, if that's his decision) and you need to work on your relationship with Alvin and why you are reacting this way.
posted by lydhre at 7:13 AM on June 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
Do you want him to DO something in particular? Do you want him to FEEL something in particular? Do you want him to ACCEPT or REJECT something in particular?
This is all something you have to work on for yourself, because Alvin is working on his relationship with Bob (or lack thereof, if that's his decision) and you need to work on your relationship with Alvin and why you are reacting this way.
posted by lydhre at 7:13 AM on June 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
Okay, I think the important part of your question was "How can I best support Alvin...?" So you already know that your upset needs to be dialed back and you are asking for ways you can do that.
I'm going to suggest, that you make sure you are a good ear when or if Alvin wants to talk so that he never feels more stressed for having told you anything about Bob or his own feelings.
I'm going to suggest that you support Bob with those things he is strong at when you speak to him. Say Bob, for all his messes and failures in life is a good artist. Then aim to have interactions with Bob where he gets to excel as an artist. He can show you his art, or talk about his art. This will be a good counter for the feelings of shame that drive him to seek chemical oblivion and will help him maintain at least one functional part of his life. But when you talk to Alvin about Bob's latest drawing, it will give Alvin something to hang onto also, and enable him to have something to talk to Bob about, other than what a colossal mess Bob has made of his life. If you totally reject and repudiate Bob that will be a rejection and a shame that Alvin feels - it's the same as when you hate on a child's parent. So try to cultivate a friendly relationship with Bob outside of his drinking and not related to his mental health or substance abuse.
Let Alvin decide on the level of interaction and involvement and emotional connection your household has with Bob. If Alvin wants to withdraw for awhile but wants you to maintain the connection with Bob so he can more easily re-connect again, you can do that. If Alvin wants you to Never Mention Bob again, you can do that. Just ask him, and be prepared to change what you do, from week to week or month to month, taking your lead from how much Bob Alvin wants in his life.
Be aware that Alvin is grieving, so treat him with the kindness that you do for someone who is grieving. Help Alvin compartmentalize - he should have times when he does not have to think about Bob and when good things are happening.
As a household you might wish to reduce any drinking you do. Alvin may be more susceptible to substance abuse, having shared genetics and background with Bob, so more quietly to be less likely to enable substance abusers is good. Those funny memes about wine being the only way to be happy? Those are enabling messages. That habit of getting together with the boys for some beer in the backyard on the weekend? That could be enabling. Move so that any such gathering is a welcoming place for people who don't drink.
When Alvin talks about Bob make sure you do not get more upset than he is.
If Alvin wants to try something that will encourage Bob to overcome his mental health and other issues, support him in that, even if it costs your household and even after you see it won't work. So if Alvin wants to visit Bob, or if Alvin wants to spend time talking to Bob that takes away from his family time with you, support that. Support that right up until doing that is harmful for Alvin. Alvin has to decide if what he does is helping Bob or not, and has to be the one to give up, and has to decide how much he gives and how much he stays involved.
Educate yourself quietly about substance abuse, the underlying mental disorders and the underlying social issues that cause the mental issues and the abuse. Find stories of hope - not the sentimental ones or preachy ones, but genuine ones.
Be prepared to provide practical support for Alvin and Bob - is there an anti anxiety medication that Bob might find worth trying? What are the pros and cons? Can you find this out? Would Bob do better if he joined you and Alvin over Skype playing D & D every Friday night instead of going out drinking?
But remember that it's out of your hands and out of Alvin's hands and you need a level of detachment, whatever help or social support you might give to Bob, he is still fighting in a terrible battle that is often impossible to win.
Allow Alvin to have contradictory feelings - He might feel that Bob is worthless and Bob is valuable. He might feel that Bob is evil and that Bob is just misunderstood and needs help and it is as much the fault of other people for not helping him. Support him in this. Logical inconsistencies are important for Alvin to come to terms with how he feels.
Allow Alvin to not confide in you, to not seem to progress, to not help Bob, to help Bob but then take that help away. Allow him to seem completely indifferent. Any and all of those things are valid and may be necessary for Alvin's own well being. Just accept Alvin and trust his judgement.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:19 AM on June 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
I'm going to suggest, that you make sure you are a good ear when or if Alvin wants to talk so that he never feels more stressed for having told you anything about Bob or his own feelings.
I'm going to suggest that you support Bob with those things he is strong at when you speak to him. Say Bob, for all his messes and failures in life is a good artist. Then aim to have interactions with Bob where he gets to excel as an artist. He can show you his art, or talk about his art. This will be a good counter for the feelings of shame that drive him to seek chemical oblivion and will help him maintain at least one functional part of his life. But when you talk to Alvin about Bob's latest drawing, it will give Alvin something to hang onto also, and enable him to have something to talk to Bob about, other than what a colossal mess Bob has made of his life. If you totally reject and repudiate Bob that will be a rejection and a shame that Alvin feels - it's the same as when you hate on a child's parent. So try to cultivate a friendly relationship with Bob outside of his drinking and not related to his mental health or substance abuse.
Let Alvin decide on the level of interaction and involvement and emotional connection your household has with Bob. If Alvin wants to withdraw for awhile but wants you to maintain the connection with Bob so he can more easily re-connect again, you can do that. If Alvin wants you to Never Mention Bob again, you can do that. Just ask him, and be prepared to change what you do, from week to week or month to month, taking your lead from how much Bob Alvin wants in his life.
Be aware that Alvin is grieving, so treat him with the kindness that you do for someone who is grieving. Help Alvin compartmentalize - he should have times when he does not have to think about Bob and when good things are happening.
As a household you might wish to reduce any drinking you do. Alvin may be more susceptible to substance abuse, having shared genetics and background with Bob, so more quietly to be less likely to enable substance abusers is good. Those funny memes about wine being the only way to be happy? Those are enabling messages. That habit of getting together with the boys for some beer in the backyard on the weekend? That could be enabling. Move so that any such gathering is a welcoming place for people who don't drink.
When Alvin talks about Bob make sure you do not get more upset than he is.
If Alvin wants to try something that will encourage Bob to overcome his mental health and other issues, support him in that, even if it costs your household and even after you see it won't work. So if Alvin wants to visit Bob, or if Alvin wants to spend time talking to Bob that takes away from his family time with you, support that. Support that right up until doing that is harmful for Alvin. Alvin has to decide if what he does is helping Bob or not, and has to be the one to give up, and has to decide how much he gives and how much he stays involved.
Educate yourself quietly about substance abuse, the underlying mental disorders and the underlying social issues that cause the mental issues and the abuse. Find stories of hope - not the sentimental ones or preachy ones, but genuine ones.
Be prepared to provide practical support for Alvin and Bob - is there an anti anxiety medication that Bob might find worth trying? What are the pros and cons? Can you find this out? Would Bob do better if he joined you and Alvin over Skype playing D & D every Friday night instead of going out drinking?
But remember that it's out of your hands and out of Alvin's hands and you need a level of detachment, whatever help or social support you might give to Bob, he is still fighting in a terrible battle that is often impossible to win.
Allow Alvin to have contradictory feelings - He might feel that Bob is worthless and Bob is valuable. He might feel that Bob is evil and that Bob is just misunderstood and needs help and it is as much the fault of other people for not helping him. Support him in this. Logical inconsistencies are important for Alvin to come to terms with how he feels.
Allow Alvin to not confide in you, to not seem to progress, to not help Bob, to help Bob but then take that help away. Allow him to seem completely indifferent. Any and all of those things are valid and may be necessary for Alvin's own well being. Just accept Alvin and trust his judgement.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:19 AM on June 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
The answers are really well-stated, but just to add perspective: my sister was an alcoholic who died in her early 40s.
By the end of her life I was like Alvin: I felt fear (for her, and her kids, and her partner), and shame (that I didn't/couldn't help more), and guilt (that I had such a good life as she dealt with the worst consequences of her disease), and anger (that my smart, funny, loving, only sister was seemingly so determined to throw it away), and annoyance (that she would call me late at night drunk and be difficult), and sadness (that we were losing her or really that we had already lost her), and love (because she was my sister and we had shared so much).
I knew she was a danger to herself and others. I knew it wouldn't end well. I knew it would cause a ton of pain and regret for my parents. But I also knew that I literally couldn't fix it. My money, or my advice, or my tough love, or my snitching, or my quiet listening, or my [fill in the blank] couldn't fix it. I bet Alvin knows that too. Your intentions are good, and laudable. But you'll learn what everyone above is saying: it's not your burden. It can't be.
Support Alvin by being there for him.
posted by AgentRocket at 7:22 AM on June 14, 2019 [35 favorites]
By the end of her life I was like Alvin: I felt fear (for her, and her kids, and her partner), and shame (that I didn't/couldn't help more), and guilt (that I had such a good life as she dealt with the worst consequences of her disease), and anger (that my smart, funny, loving, only sister was seemingly so determined to throw it away), and annoyance (that she would call me late at night drunk and be difficult), and sadness (that we were losing her or really that we had already lost her), and love (because she was my sister and we had shared so much).
I knew she was a danger to herself and others. I knew it wouldn't end well. I knew it would cause a ton of pain and regret for my parents. But I also knew that I literally couldn't fix it. My money, or my advice, or my tough love, or my snitching, or my quiet listening, or my [fill in the blank] couldn't fix it. I bet Alvin knows that too. Your intentions are good, and laudable. But you'll learn what everyone above is saying: it's not your burden. It can't be.
Support Alvin by being there for him.
posted by AgentRocket at 7:22 AM on June 14, 2019 [35 favorites]
“Alvin, I feel upset about Bob and wish there was something I could do. I know he’s your brother, not mine. I care very much about you and never want you to be hurting. Please know I’m here for you if and when you want to talk about this or want to talk through what we can do to help Bob.”
Then check out Al Anon.
posted by sallybrown at 7:55 AM on June 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
Then check out Al Anon.
posted by sallybrown at 7:55 AM on June 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
Friend, as someone whose life has been affected by someone else's drinking, I want to Nth Al-Anon for you. Please go. Every meeting is different, so if you don't like the first one, try another.
posted by BlahLaLa at 8:14 AM on June 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 8:14 AM on June 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
I just want to add on to AgentRocket's answer that in my case, the (well-intentioned) prods to action became extremely hurtful with frequency and negatively impacted my relationship to the person doing it. I wasn't in denial, I was in pain. And being hit over the head with ideas and assumptions didn't feel like support, it felt more like an attack. Just my anecdote but hopefully worth considering.
posted by sm1tten at 8:23 AM on June 14, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by sm1tten at 8:23 AM on June 14, 2019 [7 favorites]
Be careful about this kind of self-justification of your position, "This is incredibly frustrating and upsetting to me, chiefly because Bob is putting his own and OTHER PEOPLES’ LIVES at risk"
Many, many people you know put the well-being of others' lives at risk in various serious ways, but you're using this concern right here, for this situation only, to justify you wanting to force Alvin to deal with this in a way that you find more acceptable. This isn't the moral high ground you think it is. This is a justification you're using to manipulate/guilt Alvin into doing what you want, but framed within a 'higher purpose'.
Addiction in families is very hard to deal with, especially when it's been a long-term problem. Assume that you don't know all of the terrible details of how many ugly things the family has been through with this and redirect your energy into going to Al-Anon and being actually supportive of your partner. Let Alvin drive his response to this and stop trying to grab the wheel to force a u-turn. And, unless Bob has opened up to you about his addiction struggles, please do not try to inject yourself into this with well-meaning advice based on things that he hasn't even told you directly. You are not in the position to help Bob and, it appears, neither is Alvin. If you force Bob into a confrontation on Messenger (I can't imagine a worse format to do this in), he'll know that he can't trust Alvin to keep his confidences and it could further alienate him from those who care for him and also the care he needs right now. When you're going through a crisis, a terrible thing you can learn is that everyone is talking behind your back about how you're flailing.
This is extremely hard and you're not a bad person or bad partner for trying to redirect your anger and pain into action that you think will fix this. Going to Al-Anon meetings and truly supporting Alvin (comfort in, dump out) would be a much better way for you to redirect your feelings. Sometimes we can't fix things, even if our intentions are good.
posted by quince at 9:59 AM on June 14, 2019 [5 favorites]
Many, many people you know put the well-being of others' lives at risk in various serious ways, but you're using this concern right here, for this situation only, to justify you wanting to force Alvin to deal with this in a way that you find more acceptable. This isn't the moral high ground you think it is. This is a justification you're using to manipulate/guilt Alvin into doing what you want, but framed within a 'higher purpose'.
Addiction in families is very hard to deal with, especially when it's been a long-term problem. Assume that you don't know all of the terrible details of how many ugly things the family has been through with this and redirect your energy into going to Al-Anon and being actually supportive of your partner. Let Alvin drive his response to this and stop trying to grab the wheel to force a u-turn. And, unless Bob has opened up to you about his addiction struggles, please do not try to inject yourself into this with well-meaning advice based on things that he hasn't even told you directly. You are not in the position to help Bob and, it appears, neither is Alvin. If you force Bob into a confrontation on Messenger (I can't imagine a worse format to do this in), he'll know that he can't trust Alvin to keep his confidences and it could further alienate him from those who care for him and also the care he needs right now. When you're going through a crisis, a terrible thing you can learn is that everyone is talking behind your back about how you're flailing.
This is extremely hard and you're not a bad person or bad partner for trying to redirect your anger and pain into action that you think will fix this. Going to Al-Anon meetings and truly supporting Alvin (comfort in, dump out) would be a much better way for you to redirect your feelings. Sometimes we can't fix things, even if our intentions are good.
posted by quince at 9:59 AM on June 14, 2019 [5 favorites]
As the sibling (and daughter) of someone who has struggled with addiction for years, one of the hardest lessons I have to learn over and over again is that I have absolutely no control over them getting sober. I spent years pouring so much energy and emotion and money and time and resources into trying to help my family members in any way I could, helping them navigate complicated application processes to enroll in literally 30+ different treatment programs over the years (they would get kicked out for breaking rules or leave themselves after a couple days), connecting them with case workers and therapists, letting them live with me (bad idea!!) and then helping them apply for housing when they were homeless, buying them groceries/meals, bailing them out of jail, giving them rides to important appointments or away from dangerous situations, calling crisis intervention lines when they threatened to hurt themselves... It was a cycle of hope that any new intervention might be a turning point where things would start to get better and bitter disappointment and fear when things just got worse and worse.
Eventually (after ~4 years?) it was a revelation to me that all of my effort and emotional turmoil had had absolutely zero impact on "making" them get sober, safe and happy. Every time I helped bail them out of one crisis, another one was waiting the next day. They were in the exact same place as they were before I had done anything--but what was NOT the same was the state of my own mental health. Trying to help in the way that you seem to be suggesting is incredibly destabilizing, demoralizing and extremely hard on a person's mental health. It's not as though a one-time action would fix the problem, and in my experience getting deeply, continually involved didn't help either. For me personally, I realized that if I continued putting my entire self into trying to help them, the only outcome would be that ALL of us would go under since the need was endless. I had to set hard boundaries and disentangle myself from the daily crises to protect myself so that at least one of us could try to live a normal life. Even still, I am not the same person I was before going through those years of turmoil.
One of the biggest things I wanted to protect was my relationship with my now husband, and stability so that we could have children (I now have a daughter). My deep involvement with my family's issues was a huge stressor on our relationship and home life. He never did give me an ultimatum, but I saw that if I continued down the path I was on there was no way to have a normal relationship.
I don't know your brother-in-law's situation, but from my experience as a family member of multiple people addicted to opioids and/or alcohol I would imagine your husband and his family have been through a lot of terrible situations and have tried many strategies to help his brother already. (If you do attend an Al-Anon meeting or do some internet sleuthing or read some news articles, you can get a sense of what family members of addicted people have to go through.) Maybe your husband doesn't want to put your family in the position of being on the front lines for the horrible drama that can come with addiction. I urge you to rethink whether you truly want your husband to engage himself in trying to "deal with" his brother's deep and years-long struggle with addiction. I would venture that it is actually a blessing for you that you are far from this situation.
I will say that for me, my priority for my family members has been to attempt to accept them as they are instead of spending our entire relationship struggling to get them to get sober/go to the doctor/get a job/get back in school/etc. I do have rules around not ever giving them money or rides (unless it's to dinner with me/a verified doctor appointment), not hanging out with them when they are under the influence and not engaging in certain hot topic conversations. I worry that my time with them will be unnaturally limited due to their reckless lifestyles, so my priority is to make sure they know I love them, support them in positive steps they are taking and accept them without judgement to the extent possible (which is extremely difficult when I feel like I can see the detrimental choices they are making and what they could do differently).
I hope this perspective is helpful for you. It's an impossible position to love someone struggling with addiction, and the main thing I think it's worth internalizing is that your husband doesn't actually have the power to control his brother's behavior. Sending best wishes to your family.
posted by ialwayscryatendings at 10:55 AM on June 14, 2019 [6 favorites]
Eventually (after ~4 years?) it was a revelation to me that all of my effort and emotional turmoil had had absolutely zero impact on "making" them get sober, safe and happy. Every time I helped bail them out of one crisis, another one was waiting the next day. They were in the exact same place as they were before I had done anything--but what was NOT the same was the state of my own mental health. Trying to help in the way that you seem to be suggesting is incredibly destabilizing, demoralizing and extremely hard on a person's mental health. It's not as though a one-time action would fix the problem, and in my experience getting deeply, continually involved didn't help either. For me personally, I realized that if I continued putting my entire self into trying to help them, the only outcome would be that ALL of us would go under since the need was endless. I had to set hard boundaries and disentangle myself from the daily crises to protect myself so that at least one of us could try to live a normal life. Even still, I am not the same person I was before going through those years of turmoil.
One of the biggest things I wanted to protect was my relationship with my now husband, and stability so that we could have children (I now have a daughter). My deep involvement with my family's issues was a huge stressor on our relationship and home life. He never did give me an ultimatum, but I saw that if I continued down the path I was on there was no way to have a normal relationship.
I don't know your brother-in-law's situation, but from my experience as a family member of multiple people addicted to opioids and/or alcohol I would imagine your husband and his family have been through a lot of terrible situations and have tried many strategies to help his brother already. (If you do attend an Al-Anon meeting or do some internet sleuthing or read some news articles, you can get a sense of what family members of addicted people have to go through.) Maybe your husband doesn't want to put your family in the position of being on the front lines for the horrible drama that can come with addiction. I urge you to rethink whether you truly want your husband to engage himself in trying to "deal with" his brother's deep and years-long struggle with addiction. I would venture that it is actually a blessing for you that you are far from this situation.
I will say that for me, my priority for my family members has been to attempt to accept them as they are instead of spending our entire relationship struggling to get them to get sober/go to the doctor/get a job/get back in school/etc. I do have rules around not ever giving them money or rides (unless it's to dinner with me/a verified doctor appointment), not hanging out with them when they are under the influence and not engaging in certain hot topic conversations. I worry that my time with them will be unnaturally limited due to their reckless lifestyles, so my priority is to make sure they know I love them, support them in positive steps they are taking and accept them without judgement to the extent possible (which is extremely difficult when I feel like I can see the detrimental choices they are making and what they could do differently).
I hope this perspective is helpful for you. It's an impossible position to love someone struggling with addiction, and the main thing I think it's worth internalizing is that your husband doesn't actually have the power to control his brother's behavior. Sending best wishes to your family.
posted by ialwayscryatendings at 10:55 AM on June 14, 2019 [6 favorites]
As others have suggested, try AlAnon. If you find it’s not for you - it wasn’t for me - there are other online resources. I liked soberrecovery.com. They will tell you what we have - you can only control yourself. There are no magic words, no threats, no ultimatums to get Bob to change (and it sounds like Alvin knows that already.). But they will tell you as many times as you need to hear it, and you can hear about and learn from other people’s struggles. You can dump out to them while comforting Alvin.
I could go on and on but everyone above has said it all better than I could have.
posted by lyssabee at 11:05 AM on June 14, 2019
I could go on and on but everyone above has said it all better than I could have.
posted by lyssabee at 11:05 AM on June 14, 2019
Nthing Al-anon and I want to clarify that Al-anon is not AA. Despite its stupidly confusing name, it's for family/friends of alcoholics (and, functionally, of addicts).
posted by small_ruminant at 11:54 AM on June 14, 2019
posted by small_ruminant at 11:54 AM on June 14, 2019
I just want to say it's OK if you don't like Al-Anon.
posted by thelonius at 11:58 AM on June 14, 2019
posted by thelonius at 11:58 AM on June 14, 2019
Definitely okay if you don't like Al-anon!
Shit, I've been an Al-anon member a long time now and *I* don't even love it, but it saved a lot of my relationships and my sanity so I say 1) try a few different meetings because there are some seriously bonkers ones and also ones that just aren't a good fit, and 2) If you get absolutely nothing out of, say, 3 meetings, then I would venture to guess it's not going to be useful to you.
I'm another atheist and when I go to a meeting that mentions too much religion or Jesus or even Buddhist practices...whatever! I have to take my leave. Good on them for what works for them but I get very impatient with all that.
Even if Al-anon isn't for you, though, I think something needs to be for you because figuring out insanity (which is what addiction sure looks like) isn't something people are equipped to do without some outside support.
posted by small_ruminant at 12:11 PM on June 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
Shit, I've been an Al-anon member a long time now and *I* don't even love it, but it saved a lot of my relationships and my sanity so I say 1) try a few different meetings because there are some seriously bonkers ones and also ones that just aren't a good fit, and 2) If you get absolutely nothing out of, say, 3 meetings, then I would venture to guess it's not going to be useful to you.
I'm another atheist and when I go to a meeting that mentions too much religion or Jesus or even Buddhist practices...whatever! I have to take my leave. Good on them for what works for them but I get very impatient with all that.
Even if Al-anon isn't for you, though, I think something needs to be for you because figuring out insanity (which is what addiction sure looks like) isn't something people are equipped to do without some outside support.
posted by small_ruminant at 12:11 PM on June 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
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Alvin doesn't own your relationship with Bob. You can speak to Bob yourself, though I would recommend you temper your expectations about what that will achieve.
Alvin doesn't have to engage with his brother if he doesn't want to and it's not your place to force the issue. You support him by respecting that.
posted by cilantro at 5:28 AM on June 14, 2019 [50 favorites]