My online group went from Metafilter-esque to Reddit. Help?
May 22, 2019 6:06 PM Subscribe
5 years ago I founded an online group, then watched it grow and moderated things. Mostly it was a source of useful information and cameraderie, but somehow in the last few months it reached a tipping point where the bad now outweighs the good. I'm considering shutting it down. Help me think through that decision.
Long story short: my kid goes to a school where parent-to-parent communication is difficult for a million reasons I'm not going to detail here. So I started a closed Facebook group, then acted like a damn fool trying to spread the word and get parents to join. I brought flyers to random school events, translated into the primary languages our community uses. I hounded members to tell other parents they met to join. I eventually reached a level of trust with the school's administration that they'd let me come to beginning-of-school-year meetings for new parents, to encourage them to join. All in service of having a place where people could get questions answered, look for carpool partners, share info about city events related to our kids, etc. etc.
I worked HARD for FIVE YEARS to build this community -- which is something I'm having trouble getting past now, because...
The group worked pretty well for a long time, only occasionally devolving into rumor and innuendo that school parents sometimes indulge in. About once a year some brouhaha would blow up. (Example: "The school used toxic chemicals to clean the carpet and it seriously injured a student!" which turned out to be "A kid with known heavy allergies had an allergic reaction to something and used his allergy medicine and is fine.") Each time something like this happens, parents inevitably call the school in a panic, and the administrators push back on me to get everyone to calm the eff down. I used to be able to deal with this, when it was once or twice a year. But...
A few things have changed over the years:
-- Someone (or multiple someones) regularly goes in to school to complain about the page and my moderation, and the resulting meeting with the admins embarrasses me because it's a waste of their time and it hurts my reputation.
-- There is a category of parents who both hate the school yet don't want to leave (again: reasons) who spend a good portion of their week complaining about it in various ways on the page, including using incendiary language: "The school is abusive." "The school brutalized my child." "The teachers are monsters."
-- I worry about my personal liability when parents are saying their child has literally been abused/brutalized (actual words used). I was a mandated reporter in the past, though not currently, and it feels like I'm either dealing with insane people (probably) or turning a blind eye to a situation that needs to be reported/investigated (less likely).
-- The group size is large enough (350ish) that this no longer feels like running a PTA meeting. It's more like herding cats. In the last 28 days there have been more than 2500 posts & comments. (!!!!) Some of these are threads with 150+ comments of parents fighting back and forth.
-- The group is under constant bombardment from fake FB profiles, and while I've learned a lot about how to make those go away (membership questions to prove you're a school parent before I let you join) it increasingly takes up my time to deal with this.
-- When I try to moderate the conversation and push back against actual falsehoods, haters attack me with veiled comments about how "some people like to stifle complaint" and the like. They call me "nothing more than a rah-rah cheerleader" and say that anyone with an opposing voice is being censored. I'm over it.
-- "Good" parents who speak up against "bad" parents are also vilified. As you can imagine, this leads these good guys to stop posting altogether or even leave the group...which only worsens the ratio of bad posts to good ones.
I want to...close the group and walk away at the end of the school year (which is soon). Doing so will be a real bummer. There are many legitimately useful parts of the group that will be missed by the entire community. A practical way to communicate and exchange information will be gone. And because there are (several hurdles I'm not going to go into too deeply), there really isn't another solution, except maybe someone starting up a new FB group and taking on the responsibility. In the mean time, we'll have nothing. Am I really going to be the person who's done with the game and takes the ball and leaves everyone else in the lurch? I did this to be helpful. I like being helpful!
I don't want to simply hand the existing group off to another moderator because it would not change the baseline problem: blowback from this group affects the school administration, and making their jobs harder is the antithesis of what I originally envisioned this group doing. This is a Title I public school in an urban setting. These educators are working their asses off every day to educate children who are mostly non-white, mostly poor, many of whom are the first generation of their family to get any substantive education and prep for college. I'm not supposed to be making things harder for them. In addition, if I did this the administrators would continue to hold me at least partly responsible, since I'd still be the person who created this forum.
(And yes, almost all the group troublemakers are the middle class white parents, like me. Sigh.)
Am I a monster if I just shut it down? If I do shut it down, should I give people notice? How much notice? (One practical idea of giving notice: it gives members a chance to "friend" anybody they want to friend before it goes away, so they can stay in touch outside of the group.) I was thinking of making an announcement + 48 hours notice + just archiving the group, not deleting it, which would, I imagine, make it possible for current members to at least see who's on the member list. A truly intrepid person could start a new group by inviting all the current members. Other options include a longer or shorter notice, and deleting the group altogether, which would make it...gone. I guess the harshest option would be just to delete the group with no notice...but this seems cruel, confusing, and likely to lead to further chaos, at least temporarily.
Should I do this? What else should I be thinking about?
Long story short: my kid goes to a school where parent-to-parent communication is difficult for a million reasons I'm not going to detail here. So I started a closed Facebook group, then acted like a damn fool trying to spread the word and get parents to join. I brought flyers to random school events, translated into the primary languages our community uses. I hounded members to tell other parents they met to join. I eventually reached a level of trust with the school's administration that they'd let me come to beginning-of-school-year meetings for new parents, to encourage them to join. All in service of having a place where people could get questions answered, look for carpool partners, share info about city events related to our kids, etc. etc.
I worked HARD for FIVE YEARS to build this community -- which is something I'm having trouble getting past now, because...
The group worked pretty well for a long time, only occasionally devolving into rumor and innuendo that school parents sometimes indulge in. About once a year some brouhaha would blow up. (Example: "The school used toxic chemicals to clean the carpet and it seriously injured a student!" which turned out to be "A kid with known heavy allergies had an allergic reaction to something and used his allergy medicine and is fine.") Each time something like this happens, parents inevitably call the school in a panic, and the administrators push back on me to get everyone to calm the eff down. I used to be able to deal with this, when it was once or twice a year. But...
A few things have changed over the years:
-- Someone (or multiple someones) regularly goes in to school to complain about the page and my moderation, and the resulting meeting with the admins embarrasses me because it's a waste of their time and it hurts my reputation.
-- There is a category of parents who both hate the school yet don't want to leave (again: reasons) who spend a good portion of their week complaining about it in various ways on the page, including using incendiary language: "The school is abusive." "The school brutalized my child." "The teachers are monsters."
-- I worry about my personal liability when parents are saying their child has literally been abused/brutalized (actual words used). I was a mandated reporter in the past, though not currently, and it feels like I'm either dealing with insane people (probably) or turning a blind eye to a situation that needs to be reported/investigated (less likely).
-- The group size is large enough (350ish) that this no longer feels like running a PTA meeting. It's more like herding cats. In the last 28 days there have been more than 2500 posts & comments. (!!!!) Some of these are threads with 150+ comments of parents fighting back and forth.
-- The group is under constant bombardment from fake FB profiles, and while I've learned a lot about how to make those go away (membership questions to prove you're a school parent before I let you join) it increasingly takes up my time to deal with this.
-- When I try to moderate the conversation and push back against actual falsehoods, haters attack me with veiled comments about how "some people like to stifle complaint" and the like. They call me "nothing more than a rah-rah cheerleader" and say that anyone with an opposing voice is being censored. I'm over it.
-- "Good" parents who speak up against "bad" parents are also vilified. As you can imagine, this leads these good guys to stop posting altogether or even leave the group...which only worsens the ratio of bad posts to good ones.
I want to...close the group and walk away at the end of the school year (which is soon). Doing so will be a real bummer. There are many legitimately useful parts of the group that will be missed by the entire community. A practical way to communicate and exchange information will be gone. And because there are (several hurdles I'm not going to go into too deeply), there really isn't another solution, except maybe someone starting up a new FB group and taking on the responsibility. In the mean time, we'll have nothing. Am I really going to be the person who's done with the game and takes the ball and leaves everyone else in the lurch? I did this to be helpful. I like being helpful!
I don't want to simply hand the existing group off to another moderator because it would not change the baseline problem: blowback from this group affects the school administration, and making their jobs harder is the antithesis of what I originally envisioned this group doing. This is a Title I public school in an urban setting. These educators are working their asses off every day to educate children who are mostly non-white, mostly poor, many of whom are the first generation of their family to get any substantive education and prep for college. I'm not supposed to be making things harder for them. In addition, if I did this the administrators would continue to hold me at least partly responsible, since I'd still be the person who created this forum.
(And yes, almost all the group troublemakers are the middle class white parents, like me. Sigh.)
Am I a monster if I just shut it down? If I do shut it down, should I give people notice? How much notice? (One practical idea of giving notice: it gives members a chance to "friend" anybody they want to friend before it goes away, so they can stay in touch outside of the group.) I was thinking of making an announcement + 48 hours notice + just archiving the group, not deleting it, which would, I imagine, make it possible for current members to at least see who's on the member list. A truly intrepid person could start a new group by inviting all the current members. Other options include a longer or shorter notice, and deleting the group altogether, which would make it...gone. I guess the harshest option would be just to delete the group with no notice...but this seems cruel, confusing, and likely to lead to further chaos, at least temporarily.
Should I do this? What else should I be thinking about?
I've been in groups that devolve and what has worked from what I've seen is:
1. All posts are moderated (need approval before posting)
2. Strong guidelines - "If you believe your child is genuinely being abused, call the police, do not post that here."
3. Strongly outline what the group is for - "this group is for a) raising money for the school band b) communicating about snow days etc.
4. Have 5 core moderators and a thread between you on DM to discuss issues if they come up
5. Ban people. Zero tolerance in most cases. It's your group, you do as you see fit. If they don't like it, they can start their own group.
Or, do what Zephyrial suggested.
posted by Toddles at 6:17 PM on May 22, 2019 [85 favorites]
1. All posts are moderated (need approval before posting)
2. Strong guidelines - "If you believe your child is genuinely being abused, call the police, do not post that here."
3. Strongly outline what the group is for - "this group is for a) raising money for the school band b) communicating about snow days etc.
4. Have 5 core moderators and a thread between you on DM to discuss issues if they come up
5. Ban people. Zero tolerance in most cases. It's your group, you do as you see fit. If they don't like it, they can start their own group.
Or, do what Zephyrial suggested.
posted by Toddles at 6:17 PM on May 22, 2019 [85 favorites]
Ya I think toddles' solution is perfect. I was aiming to say that but that list is a perfect answer. I'd add that if steps 1 thru 5 don't fix it then just give notice and shut it down regardless of where in the school year you are....
posted by chasles at 6:31 PM on May 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by chasles at 6:31 PM on May 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
Close it down, invite the best people to be part of a new forum, and start it up somewhere else (not FB) invite only.
posted by vrakatar at 6:32 PM on May 22, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by vrakatar at 6:32 PM on May 22, 2019 [5 favorites]
If you want to try a last ditch effort to save the group- mass banning. Swing the ban hammer HARD and just ditch the troublemakers. Do it- then once it’s done re-iterate strong rules to those that remain. If that works- you’ve saved the group yay! If it doesn’t- you can walk away knowing you tried and wash your hands of the toxicity. Of course- might be best to just wash your hands of it now.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 7:09 PM on May 22, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 7:09 PM on May 22, 2019 [8 favorites]
Teresa Nielsen Hayden's guidelines remain relevant, as does the MeFi Way™. Your group has reached the point of "I'm being censored" and extended fights and bad driving out good, and it's probably not salvageable in its current form. Shut it down, provide a transitional archive, and if you want to restart it elsewhere invite-only, and are willing to wield the banhammer from the start, do that.
posted by holgate at 7:20 PM on May 22, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by holgate at 7:20 PM on May 22, 2019 [9 favorites]
If it makes you feel better, at this point in the internet, anyone who has been in any large group on FB has already gone through at least one of these implosions and will not be horribly phased. They happen A LOT with large groups, which are a bear to moderate. You are totally not a monster, and if you give some notice, AT LEAST one off-shoot group will form and people will still get most of the benefits with none of the agitia for you. You're SO ALLOWED to close it!
posted by Countess Sandwich at 11:45 PM on May 22, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Countess Sandwich at 11:45 PM on May 22, 2019 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I know the impulse is to save the group but if the main motivation is to save the administrators and educators the grief, then banning people is not going to work very well. They’ll just complain to the school.
I would give 48 hours notice and firmly close the group down with a “so long and thanks for all the fish”. Say you can’t dedicate the proper time to moderation anymore because of the group’s size and breeze on out of there. The bad apples will complain but it’ll be definite and the administration can just reiterate that it was a private group and they’re free to start one themselves. The end.
Then walk free and have an ice cream on a beautiful summer night, you deserve it.
posted by lydhre at 2:15 AM on May 23, 2019 [10 favorites]
I would give 48 hours notice and firmly close the group down with a “so long and thanks for all the fish”. Say you can’t dedicate the proper time to moderation anymore because of the group’s size and breeze on out of there. The bad apples will complain but it’ll be definite and the administration can just reiterate that it was a private group and they’re free to start one themselves. The end.
Then walk free and have an ice cream on a beautiful summer night, you deserve it.
posted by lydhre at 2:15 AM on May 23, 2019 [10 favorites]
I don't want to simply hand the existing group off to another moderator because it would not change the baseline problem: blowback from this group affects the school administration, and making their jobs harder is the antithesis of what I originally envisioned this group doing.
I think this move wouldn't eliminate the baseline problem, but I do think it would change it, and most importantly, it would change the extent to which it is directly weighing on you. You're just one parent and the burden of this shouldn't be on you alone.
As you say, there are still a lot of other parents getting things they want and need from this group. This decision affects them, too. I would ask around to see if you can get another parent to take over the group. If yes, you can hand it over in good conscience. If no, that's a signal that, not just for you but for the community at large, the bad of the group's existence outweighs the good, and you can shut it down in good conscience.
posted by escabeche at 5:40 AM on May 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think this move wouldn't eliminate the baseline problem, but I do think it would change it, and most importantly, it would change the extent to which it is directly weighing on you. You're just one parent and the burden of this shouldn't be on you alone.
As you say, there are still a lot of other parents getting things they want and need from this group. This decision affects them, too. I would ask around to see if you can get another parent to take over the group. If yes, you can hand it over in good conscience. If no, that's a signal that, not just for you but for the community at large, the bad of the group's existence outweighs the good, and you can shut it down in good conscience.
posted by escabeche at 5:40 AM on May 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
You should think about what you really want - it’s ok to want to let go of this big responsibility that you took on as a volunteer in your own free time!
But if you do want to keep it going, I’d put a post up saying “I started this community as a way for parents to coordinate on school-related issues and questions to make our lives easier. This is a resource for concrete issues like looking for someone to share carpool duty. This is not a feedback mechanism for complaining about teachers or passing along rumors about the school (this is a human thing to do, but this community is not the place for it). I moderate this group in my own free time. Starting today, I will be deleting posts and comments that do not meet the purpose of this group—not because I think anyone is wrong to post this stuff, just because it’s too much work for me to moderate. Please do not feel I’m judging anyone for wanting to vent—we’ve all been there! But this isn’t the place for it. If a member consistently posts things that are off topic or derails on topic discussions, I will have to remove you from the group. If someone wants to start an alternate group where parents can go to vent, have at it! It’s just not something I have time for or want to moderate. I’m human, so I’m sure I will make mistakes and that some of my deletions may seem inconsistent, but again, this is my time and effort and I’m going to do my best to keep this group on track and useful for everyone.”
This is a group you started and you moderate—I see no harm in curating it as specifically as you want to!
posted by sallybrown at 6:26 AM on May 23, 2019 [14 favorites]
But if you do want to keep it going, I’d put a post up saying “I started this community as a way for parents to coordinate on school-related issues and questions to make our lives easier. This is a resource for concrete issues like looking for someone to share carpool duty. This is not a feedback mechanism for complaining about teachers or passing along rumors about the school (this is a human thing to do, but this community is not the place for it). I moderate this group in my own free time. Starting today, I will be deleting posts and comments that do not meet the purpose of this group—not because I think anyone is wrong to post this stuff, just because it’s too much work for me to moderate. Please do not feel I’m judging anyone for wanting to vent—we’ve all been there! But this isn’t the place for it. If a member consistently posts things that are off topic or derails on topic discussions, I will have to remove you from the group. If someone wants to start an alternate group where parents can go to vent, have at it! It’s just not something I have time for or want to moderate. I’m human, so I’m sure I will make mistakes and that some of my deletions may seem inconsistent, but again, this is my time and effort and I’m going to do my best to keep this group on track and useful for everyone.”
This is a group you started and you moderate—I see no harm in curating it as specifically as you want to!
posted by sallybrown at 6:26 AM on May 23, 2019 [14 favorites]
That sounds hard and it is too bad that your reward for creating this resource has been so much criticism. I have never had to moderate a group but here are some thoughts that I hope will be helpful.
I'm guessing the main problem is that you started out wanting to share minimal useful information - but due to your success, you now have created an auditorium with 400 people and anyone can grab the mic. I do not believe for a second any parents believe their child is abused if they complain about it on facebook. What they are doing is storytelling or debate club and you have provided them with a captive audience.
I think you are under no obligation to keep this going. I would not make any grand statements. A simple "thanks for all the participation over the years, I'll be moving on on X date, and will leave the archive up until Y date." I'd also respectfully decline any requests for meeting with the school admin about the group. I honestly don't know why the school admin is poking this hornet's nest as I see nothing but downside and liability for them- but perhaps they, like you, are kind people who want to help.
What to do to replace it? One good thing is the school has natural limits of time and size. This could make it easier to create an alternative but reduce the size of the audience.
I would do yearly limits. For example - 2019-2020 Escatown Middle School Info. Start it in August, shut it down in June. Start up a new one next year. Everyone has to apply to join again. Questions can be changed to deal with problems.
Also - split into grade levels. 2019-2020 Escatown 4th graders Info. Or even individual classes 19-20 Escatown Mr. Beche's 4th grade Friends. It will be a lot harder to say "the school is abusing children" to create a rukus and then drop the mic if the group is only 35 families and three teachers (I'm guessing at the school size based on your 350 number).
It will be easier to find other moderators or to do complete post banning - approved only not deleted after - with smaller numbers.
You could continue to moderate the groups that are useful to your family. Don't have a 4th grader? Don't run the group. Other volunteers can take over the other classes. If there's one parent in the PTO in the group - they can take on forwarding posts from the PTO or school admin to the group. Yes it would be easier to have the school or PTO post only once - but that creates the auditorium and the open mic again.
posted by sol at 6:33 AM on May 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
I'm guessing the main problem is that you started out wanting to share minimal useful information - but due to your success, you now have created an auditorium with 400 people and anyone can grab the mic. I do not believe for a second any parents believe their child is abused if they complain about it on facebook. What they are doing is storytelling or debate club and you have provided them with a captive audience.
I think you are under no obligation to keep this going. I would not make any grand statements. A simple "thanks for all the participation over the years, I'll be moving on on X date, and will leave the archive up until Y date." I'd also respectfully decline any requests for meeting with the school admin about the group. I honestly don't know why the school admin is poking this hornet's nest as I see nothing but downside and liability for them- but perhaps they, like you, are kind people who want to help.
What to do to replace it? One good thing is the school has natural limits of time and size. This could make it easier to create an alternative but reduce the size of the audience.
I would do yearly limits. For example - 2019-2020 Escatown Middle School Info. Start it in August, shut it down in June. Start up a new one next year. Everyone has to apply to join again. Questions can be changed to deal with problems.
Also - split into grade levels. 2019-2020 Escatown 4th graders Info. Or even individual classes 19-20 Escatown Mr. Beche's 4th grade Friends. It will be a lot harder to say "the school is abusing children" to create a rukus and then drop the mic if the group is only 35 families and three teachers (I'm guessing at the school size based on your 350 number).
It will be easier to find other moderators or to do complete post banning - approved only not deleted after - with smaller numbers.
You could continue to moderate the groups that are useful to your family. Don't have a 4th grader? Don't run the group. Other volunteers can take over the other classes. If there's one parent in the PTO in the group - they can take on forwarding posts from the PTO or school admin to the group. Yes it would be easier to have the school or PTO post only once - but that creates the auditorium and the open mic again.
posted by sol at 6:33 AM on May 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
I think the 48 hours' notice is fine. I think it'd also be fine if you wanted to hand off to someone else and just wash your hands of it - moderating is hard! It's a job! (Says the full-time moderator with 15+ years' experience.)
That said, if you just want it to run better, then I totally agree with the idea that you need to lock down the rules a bit and focus the group more. If what you're willing to do is make it a carpool- and event-coordination group, you are 100% entitled to say upfront that you're narrowing the focus and if someone else wants to take the general chatter/complaints to their own group, they are welcome to. With Facebook, I would actually set up a totally separate group, give about two weeks where both are open but the old one is locked down so people can't post new stuff, and then archive the old one with a pointer to the new one (and if someone starts a bitch-session group, a pointer to that too.) Facebook's tools are just too shitty to really manage the transition within an existing group.
You've discovered firsthand that any online group will devolve to the level of the worst permitted behavior. Please, by all means feel empowered to set boundaries, enforce them, and fucking well ban people. It's the only way to get by.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:23 AM on May 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
That said, if you just want it to run better, then I totally agree with the idea that you need to lock down the rules a bit and focus the group more. If what you're willing to do is make it a carpool- and event-coordination group, you are 100% entitled to say upfront that you're narrowing the focus and if someone else wants to take the general chatter/complaints to their own group, they are welcome to. With Facebook, I would actually set up a totally separate group, give about two weeks where both are open but the old one is locked down so people can't post new stuff, and then archive the old one with a pointer to the new one (and if someone starts a bitch-session group, a pointer to that too.) Facebook's tools are just too shitty to really manage the transition within an existing group.
You've discovered firsthand that any online group will devolve to the level of the worst permitted behavior. Please, by all means feel empowered to set boundaries, enforce them, and fucking well ban people. It's the only way to get by.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:23 AM on May 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
BlahLaLa, I don't have an answer for you beyond some of the good suggestions above, but I wanted to just tell you that you are an amazing person for doing what you did. I am currently running a parent group (for a specific year-long program; much, much smaller than yours) and it is HARD. Otherwise levelheaded people become emotional where their kids are concerned. Some people just want to vent and get sympathy. Others want to respond with smileys and LOLs to every single comment. People hold grudges. It's exhausting, and I can't believe you've managed to keep it up for five years - I'm just about ready to kill myself after one...
So from one parent who wanted to do a good deed to another - I applaud you!!
posted by widdershins at 7:48 AM on May 23, 2019
So from one parent who wanted to do a good deed to another - I applaud you!!
posted by widdershins at 7:48 AM on May 23, 2019
Oh my god shut it down. It sounds like you're taking on an enormous amount of free labor, and to try to make this work would just require even more. You've put in your time. Go forth and be free.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:22 AM on May 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:22 AM on May 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
I started a facebook group for the community garden in my neighborhood and then when anybody in the neighborhood posted on it, I'd invite them to be an owner, or whatever it's called in facebook language. A couple of people accepted. Maybe the group persisted after I dumped facebook, I don't know.
...Yes, it's still there.
I don't know if anybody's using it, but it's at least there.
I used to loooove to go on facebook looking for timesuck fights on the local "what's good" page, where people go to find out whom in town they should hire to unclog their sink or manage their dental caries. That's also the page where people go to complain that:
*Lucky's tries to be an open-air market because they started in Colorado and Coloradans found it charming, but this is Florida, so it's not charming, it's hot, Lucky's is full of fruit flies, and the produce all rots in two seconds;
and
*the server at restaurant X didn't genuflect enough and forgot to ask whether poster wanted dessert, so poster didn't give the server a tip.
These two topics showed up reliably week in and week out and generated long, shrieky threads that filled me with malicious joy. Then I quit facebook. Revelatory: now I feel like I'm on a steady methaqualone drip all the time, and it's awesome.
It sounds to me like your page has become like that "what's good" page and is providing the schadenfreude and rage-jollies for the local entitled white people. Which is good, if unhealthy, fun for all facebookers but which is apparently exhausting and extra-unhealthy for the moderators. The people running the "what's good" group were a. multitudinous, and b. banhappy.
So maybe you can do what restless_nomad suggested and also invite other people to share the slog and then back slowly away. Five years of people on facebook acting like people on facebook act is a long-ass time.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:35 AM on May 23, 2019
...Yes, it's still there.
I don't know if anybody's using it, but it's at least there.
I used to loooove to go on facebook looking for timesuck fights on the local "what's good" page, where people go to find out whom in town they should hire to unclog their sink or manage their dental caries. That's also the page where people go to complain that:
*Lucky's tries to be an open-air market because they started in Colorado and Coloradans found it charming, but this is Florida, so it's not charming, it's hot, Lucky's is full of fruit flies, and the produce all rots in two seconds;
and
*the server at restaurant X didn't genuflect enough and forgot to ask whether poster wanted dessert, so poster didn't give the server a tip.
These two topics showed up reliably week in and week out and generated long, shrieky threads that filled me with malicious joy. Then I quit facebook. Revelatory: now I feel like I'm on a steady methaqualone drip all the time, and it's awesome.
It sounds to me like your page has become like that "what's good" page and is providing the schadenfreude and rage-jollies for the local entitled white people. Which is good, if unhealthy, fun for all facebookers but which is apparently exhausting and extra-unhealthy for the moderators. The people running the "what's good" group were a. multitudinous, and b. banhappy.
So maybe you can do what restless_nomad suggested and also invite other people to share the slog and then back slowly away. Five years of people on facebook acting like people on facebook act is a long-ass time.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:35 AM on May 23, 2019
I’m going to guess the group is still of tremendous value to others, who might have more capacity for managing it. Shutting it down closes those doors. I think you need to let go - but not by shutting it down, but by giving it to others and leaving yourself. That’s the healthy, mature response.
You’re saying that closing it will save trouble for the school, but you don’t know. It could be the crankiest folks start their own extra cranky group and make it all worse.
I’d recruit folks who are sensible and heavily involved. Bonus if you can find folks who aren’t the middle class white folks who like to stir the pot.
Give it to them, and leave at the same time. I know it’s “yours,” but you helped create a community, and there are others who might be glad to shepherd it along now. Deleting it seems a bit petty, to be honest. Just because you don’t want to be involved doesn’t mean it can’t continue without you.
posted by bluedaisy at 8:52 AM on May 23, 2019
You’re saying that closing it will save trouble for the school, but you don’t know. It could be the crankiest folks start their own extra cranky group and make it all worse.
I’d recruit folks who are sensible and heavily involved. Bonus if you can find folks who aren’t the middle class white folks who like to stir the pot.
Give it to them, and leave at the same time. I know it’s “yours,” but you helped create a community, and there are others who might be glad to shepherd it along now. Deleting it seems a bit petty, to be honest. Just because you don’t want to be involved doesn’t mean it can’t continue without you.
posted by bluedaisy at 8:52 AM on May 23, 2019
Best answer: Agree with good suggestions above about either setting strict topic limits or feeling free to walk away.
Just to address the regret and other feelings: you created and ran a useful community resource for five years. That's a worthwhile thing, full stop, and whatever happens in the future doesn't take away from that achievement/service. Even in offline life, this kind of group usually has a limited lifespan -- and that's okay. (Especially at a school, where there's automatic age-based turnover of the kids every year.) Doing it for five years is already a long time!
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:04 AM on May 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Just to address the regret and other feelings: you created and ran a useful community resource for five years. That's a worthwhile thing, full stop, and whatever happens in the future doesn't take away from that achievement/service. Even in offline life, this kind of group usually has a limited lifespan -- and that's okay. (Especially at a school, where there's automatic age-based turnover of the kids every year.) Doing it for five years is already a long time!
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:04 AM on May 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Wow! Sounds like you’re doing amazing work.
- I would NOT immediately ban people, because this is not completely a voluntary community. These are parents of students, and it would inflame things further to have some parents feel like they cannot access (what feels like) a public/open school resource.
- If you do decide to walk away, I would absolutely coordinate with the school administrators. If it’s a useful community resource, I imagine that the school would also want a heads up that it would be closing, because they would be losing out on a valuable information dissemination platform; they might want to ask people about signing up for an email newsletter instead, etc. etc.
- Right now, it sounds like the FB group has become a pattern / habit for a lot of people — as in, they check the FB group daily, etc. If you break this pattern by temporarily disabling comments and requiring posts to be reviewed, over two weeks (or even over summer vacation) people will change.
- One red flag that I’m seeing from you: you are the sole moderator (and thus the sole power-holder) of this facebook group. You can’t moderate this alone. Where are your allies / friends / the other parents in this? Why aren’t there multiple moderators (5-10)? Why haven’t you shared some power in guiding the conversation, especially if you’re a middle-class white parent, and many of the other parents are not?
posted by suedehead at 10:17 AM on May 23, 2019
- I would NOT immediately ban people, because this is not completely a voluntary community. These are parents of students, and it would inflame things further to have some parents feel like they cannot access (what feels like) a public/open school resource.
- If you do decide to walk away, I would absolutely coordinate with the school administrators. If it’s a useful community resource, I imagine that the school would also want a heads up that it would be closing, because they would be losing out on a valuable information dissemination platform; they might want to ask people about signing up for an email newsletter instead, etc. etc.
- Right now, it sounds like the FB group has become a pattern / habit for a lot of people — as in, they check the FB group daily, etc. If you break this pattern by temporarily disabling comments and requiring posts to be reviewed, over two weeks (or even over summer vacation) people will change.
- One red flag that I’m seeing from you: you are the sole moderator (and thus the sole power-holder) of this facebook group. You can’t moderate this alone. Where are your allies / friends / the other parents in this? Why aren’t there multiple moderators (5-10)? Why haven’t you shared some power in guiding the conversation, especially if you’re a middle-class white parent, and many of the other parents are not?
posted by suedehead at 10:17 AM on May 23, 2019
I like the suggestion of setting really explicit limits on what topics can be discussed in the group, and suggest making them super-simple. Maybe: “This group IS for arranging carpools and sharing announcements of community events. It IS NOT for discussing problems with the school or teachers.”
Not sure if this is possible on Facebook, but holding main posts for moderation while allowing replies on main posts you’ve approved seems like it would cut down on the chaos. And anybody who circumvents this by starting a side discussion in the comments of an approved post just gets banned.
posted by lakeroon at 10:18 AM on May 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Not sure if this is possible on Facebook, but holding main posts for moderation while allowing replies on main posts you’ve approved seems like it would cut down on the chaos. And anybody who circumvents this by starting a side discussion in the comments of an approved post just gets banned.
posted by lakeroon at 10:18 AM on May 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Best answer: So you've identified a developing and ongoing issue, that's most definitely not heading in the direction you want. You are unable to rectify the direction. You are able to reasonably predict the potential outcomes of continuing in this direction. You do not want these outcomes. But. You still have the power and authority to shut this down before it gets there. Some of the outcomes(legal/liability) could even take control of that choice from you. If I were you, I'd absolutely do that - shut it down, now. I'd even go as far as explaining the behaviors of the members that necessitated that action seeing as they are so open to the concept of critical feedback. I would not take a chance on passing on that responsibility to someone else who may or may not be able to see and do all of the above.
posted by OnefortheLast at 10:32 AM on May 23, 2019
posted by OnefortheLast at 10:32 AM on May 23, 2019
Response by poster: I really appreciate the answers so far. It's given me a lot to think about.
One element which I guess I want to describe further is that the reason the school has called me in to discuss it, and that it might be any of their business at all, has to do with some unique characteristics of this place. Because it deals with so many first-generation students, and so many parents who may be unused/unable to interface with bureaucracies -- maybe they're undocumented, their kids may be DREAMers, they may be uneducated themselves, they may be working long hours and not able to guide their child's education, they don't speak English, etc, etc -- the school already takes on many behaviors beyond what a "regular" school does. So it feels very normal for them to call me in to discuss what's happening on the FB page, or how it affects them and their jobs. They have explicitly asked me to shut it down, but I've always been able to gently push back and say, honestly, that the good far outweighs the bad. When I met with them last week I could not truthfully say that. And responding to a meeting request with anything along the lines of "This is outside school, so I don't want to meet about it" would not be something I want to do.
And yeah, a lot of the suggestions for tighter moderation or multiple moderators just seems really, really hard. The most negative posters definitely feel entitled to share their opinions, and many, many well-meaning "good" members have an underlying belief that consensus is always the way to resolve a dispute. I'm hearing "there's good on both sides" arguments A LOT, and repeated pleas to let everybody have the freedom to talk out everything they're feeling. (Hence the posts with 150+ comments.)
Lastly, I am 100% sure that this will always be thought of as "Blah's FB page" by the school administrators, even if I handed all the moderation over to someone else. It's a K-12 school, so while my kid only has 2 years left, there are plenty of other families closely involved with the FB page, on both good and bad sides, who will have many more years left at the school.
posted by BlahLaLa at 10:52 AM on May 23, 2019
One element which I guess I want to describe further is that the reason the school has called me in to discuss it, and that it might be any of their business at all, has to do with some unique characteristics of this place. Because it deals with so many first-generation students, and so many parents who may be unused/unable to interface with bureaucracies -- maybe they're undocumented, their kids may be DREAMers, they may be uneducated themselves, they may be working long hours and not able to guide their child's education, they don't speak English, etc, etc -- the school already takes on many behaviors beyond what a "regular" school does. So it feels very normal for them to call me in to discuss what's happening on the FB page, or how it affects them and their jobs. They have explicitly asked me to shut it down, but I've always been able to gently push back and say, honestly, that the good far outweighs the bad. When I met with them last week I could not truthfully say that. And responding to a meeting request with anything along the lines of "This is outside school, so I don't want to meet about it" would not be something I want to do.
And yeah, a lot of the suggestions for tighter moderation or multiple moderators just seems really, really hard. The most negative posters definitely feel entitled to share their opinions, and many, many well-meaning "good" members have an underlying belief that consensus is always the way to resolve a dispute. I'm hearing "there's good on both sides" arguments A LOT, and repeated pleas to let everybody have the freedom to talk out everything they're feeling. (Hence the posts with 150+ comments.)
Lastly, I am 100% sure that this will always be thought of as "Blah's FB page" by the school administrators, even if I handed all the moderation over to someone else. It's a K-12 school, so while my kid only has 2 years left, there are plenty of other families closely involved with the FB page, on both good and bad sides, who will have many more years left at the school.
posted by BlahLaLa at 10:52 AM on May 23, 2019
Would it be possible to work with the school administration to put together an faq type publication, either downloadable or print, of all the helpful resources and information you have collected over the years, and have it updated each school year to reflect any new changes or additional questions and issues not previously addressed? That way all parents can still access what they need to know, but it cuts all the bullshit and would be way less work for you.
posted by OnefortheLast at 11:15 AM on May 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by OnefortheLast at 11:15 AM on May 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
Based on your recent comment and comment history, I feel like there’s a race, culture, and privilege difference at play that you may not be seeing.
As a POC & bicultural person I will say: The sole moderator of a parenting messaging group for a two-thirds Latino school should not be one middle-class non-Latino white woman.
You might misread mild forms of communication as severe conflict, or vice versa. You might not understand ways of communicating or resolving conflict, or might only force them through your own cultural lens. Or you might intervene in conflicts in ways that you don’t understand.
Having built communities over the years, I empathize and understand that you are also doing a great amount of good work. But you hold a great deal of power, and you are hesitant to share it with other people, hesitant to listen to the school. It might not feel like you hold power, but you do. You have racial, economic, and academic privilege. In addition, you alone hold the sole power to shut down the group, or to delete posts and comments. The school administration has explicitly asked you to shut it down, and you have refused. (!!)
I’m sorry if this is harsh, but I think it’s true. Community isn’t easy! But community needs to be grown together, not governed, not moderated. Please consider your role in creating this context.
I would recommend A) gradually closing down the facebook group in coordination with the school’s wishes, and/or B) asking a group of parents that represent the student body to co-moderate a new facebook group.
posted by suedehead at 11:18 AM on May 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
As a POC & bicultural person I will say: The sole moderator of a parenting messaging group for a two-thirds Latino school should not be one middle-class non-Latino white woman.
You might misread mild forms of communication as severe conflict, or vice versa. You might not understand ways of communicating or resolving conflict, or might only force them through your own cultural lens. Or you might intervene in conflicts in ways that you don’t understand.
Having built communities over the years, I empathize and understand that you are also doing a great amount of good work. But you hold a great deal of power, and you are hesitant to share it with other people, hesitant to listen to the school. It might not feel like you hold power, but you do. You have racial, economic, and academic privilege. In addition, you alone hold the sole power to shut down the group, or to delete posts and comments. The school administration has explicitly asked you to shut it down, and you have refused. (!!)
I’m sorry if this is harsh, but I think it’s true. Community isn’t easy! But community needs to be grown together, not governed, not moderated. Please consider your role in creating this context.
I would recommend A) gradually closing down the facebook group in coordination with the school’s wishes, and/or B) asking a group of parents that represent the student body to co-moderate a new facebook group.
posted by suedehead at 11:18 AM on May 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
I've found with bureaucracy bullshit, it's not that the people involved don't know it's a fucking nightmare to deal with, they are usually fully aware. They usually are equally aware that there is a demand for help navigating it successfully, they just isn't enough to designate an employee to the task. It's also not that they want their system to be difficult to access either. Even with top level agencies, genrally if you approach them volunteering to do all the labor involved in a help publication, they are usually very obliging and sometimes there's even a budget for it available. It's worth a try.
posted by OnefortheLast at 12:21 PM on May 23, 2019
posted by OnefortheLast at 12:21 PM on May 23, 2019
Given your update about the admin staff I think you are right that you should close the group down and walk away from it. It, and by extension you, are making both you and the school miserable.
posted by plonkee at 1:56 PM on May 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by plonkee at 1:56 PM on May 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
They have explicitly asked me to shut it down, but I've always been able to gently push back and say, honestly, that the good far outweighs the bad. When I met with them last week I could not truthfully say that.
Okay, given this, I do think maybe deleting/archiving the group makes sense. I would give folks a heads up that it's going to happen (because it can create a furor if you don't let people know). I would also not say that the school asked you to do so... because that might create huge headaches for the school. But I would try to own some of the issues. Maybe something like, "I've grown uncomfortable with my role leading this group given that I'm a white woman and the school primarily serves students of color," etc. I also think folks will understand what you are doing. You might make this post one where people can't comment, too!
Good luck.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:44 PM on May 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
Okay, given this, I do think maybe deleting/archiving the group makes sense. I would give folks a heads up that it's going to happen (because it can create a furor if you don't let people know). I would also not say that the school asked you to do so... because that might create huge headaches for the school. But I would try to own some of the issues. Maybe something like, "I've grown uncomfortable with my role leading this group given that I'm a white woman and the school primarily serves students of color," etc. I also think folks will understand what you are doing. You might make this post one where people can't comment, too!
Good luck.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:44 PM on May 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: One more thing I want to add: I definitely won't be doing anything until after the school year ends, but because this place is on a more old-fashioned schedule, that's not for another four weeks. So anybody who's peeking at this thread for an update, know that it won't come until the end of June. I promise I will update it then with my decision and how it plays out.
(And FYI the administration agrees with me to keep things as is until the end of the year, because that will make it easier to spare them at least some of the blowback.)
posted by BlahLaLa at 2:50 PM on May 23, 2019
(And FYI the administration agrees with me to keep things as is until the end of the year, because that will make it easier to spare them at least some of the blowback.)
posted by BlahLaLa at 2:50 PM on May 23, 2019
Best answer: And yeah, a lot of the suggestions for tighter moderation or multiple moderators just seems really, really hard. The most negative posters definitely feel entitled to share their opinions, and many, many well-meaning "good" members have an underlying belief that consensus is always the way to resolve a dispute. I'm hearing "there's good on both sides" arguments A LOT, and repeated pleas to let everybody have the freedom to talk out everything they're feeling. (Hence the posts with 150+ comments.)
Yup, that is 100% how it goes. People are bad at judging what is good for a community if it means interfering either with a) things that benefit them or b) things that don't do them any particular harm. The job of the moderator is to figure out what's actually good for the community as a whole, taking those opinions into account but also those of, say, the people who find a really negative/combative group impossible to use comfortably, or those of the administrators who are not going to be helpful if they perceive the community as being full of cranks.
It would be really hard to change the rules at this point. It's also really, really hard to pick out people who are good moderators and manage them effectively. But you have too big a group to run on consensus (the cap for that, in my experience, is less that twenty active people. Less than twelve gives you better odds, especially if it's not a super homogeneous group.) It is my considered opinion that those are your options if you want to keep the community going in its current form.
That said, I think there is a very strong argument for letting it die as gracefully as possible at this point. If someone else wants to take a shot, they can start over and see how it goes. But your current setup isn't going to go anywhere good, and you're committed way past what is reasonable without more support.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:42 AM on May 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
Yup, that is 100% how it goes. People are bad at judging what is good for a community if it means interfering either with a) things that benefit them or b) things that don't do them any particular harm. The job of the moderator is to figure out what's actually good for the community as a whole, taking those opinions into account but also those of, say, the people who find a really negative/combative group impossible to use comfortably, or those of the administrators who are not going to be helpful if they perceive the community as being full of cranks.
It would be really hard to change the rules at this point. It's also really, really hard to pick out people who are good moderators and manage them effectively. But you have too big a group to run on consensus (the cap for that, in my experience, is less that twenty active people. Less than twelve gives you better odds, especially if it's not a super homogeneous group.) It is my considered opinion that those are your options if you want to keep the community going in its current form.
That said, I think there is a very strong argument for letting it die as gracefully as possible at this point. If someone else wants to take a shot, they can start over and see how it goes. But your current setup isn't going to go anywhere good, and you're committed way past what is reasonable without more support.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:42 AM on May 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Here's what happened: First, I explicitly asked the forum members to chill out for the final four weeks of school, and table arguments until after that time. Those last four weeks of school went really well. The group was helpful, and people's questions got answered, and carpools and playdates were coordinated, graduation photos were shared -- basically, exactly what the group's purpose was. I had fleeting thoughts of keeping the group going because everything was running so well.
Meanwhile, two other things were going on:
-- I drafted and redrafted a long and detailed explanation of why I was going to close the group.
-- I noticed that the group's single most toxic member didn't participate at all in that time -- no posts, no responses, nothing.
Then today the school year finally ended. Early dismissal too. And...two hours later, the toxic person posted an absolutely atrocious thing. Super underhanded and passive-aggressive. 100% engineered to stir up shit. She'd been waiting for this moment, apparently. And two minutes later, I had three DMs from people saying "Did you see that toxic post?!?" etc. And that's what made me realize that it was never going to end. There might be good periods going forward, but there would always be bad periods too. The whole situation was just going to repeat and repeat. If it wasn't this toxic person, it'd be another. It was time to end it.
First, I deleted the toxic post and ejected the author from the group. First time I'd ever just straight-up banned and blocked anybody. Didn't even message her with a reason. Just kicked her out. It felt great!
Then, I posted my closing announcement. I'm doing the 48 hours till closing + then archiving it for one month + then I'll delete it. I feel totally fine and good about this. On Monday I'll message the administrators and say it's closed, and apologize again for the problems it's caused.
Thanks for the advice.
The end.
posted by BlahLaLa at 10:51 PM on June 20, 2019 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile, two other things were going on:
-- I drafted and redrafted a long and detailed explanation of why I was going to close the group.
-- I noticed that the group's single most toxic member didn't participate at all in that time -- no posts, no responses, nothing.
Then today the school year finally ended. Early dismissal too. And...two hours later, the toxic person posted an absolutely atrocious thing. Super underhanded and passive-aggressive. 100% engineered to stir up shit. She'd been waiting for this moment, apparently. And two minutes later, I had three DMs from people saying "Did you see that toxic post?!?" etc. And that's what made me realize that it was never going to end. There might be good periods going forward, but there would always be bad periods too. The whole situation was just going to repeat and repeat. If it wasn't this toxic person, it'd be another. It was time to end it.
First, I deleted the toxic post and ejected the author from the group. First time I'd ever just straight-up banned and blocked anybody. Didn't even message her with a reason. Just kicked her out. It felt great!
Then, I posted my closing announcement. I'm doing the 48 hours till closing + then archiving it for one month + then I'll delete it. I feel totally fine and good about this. On Monday I'll message the administrators and say it's closed, and apologize again for the problems it's caused.
Thanks for the advice.
The end.
posted by BlahLaLa at 10:51 PM on June 20, 2019 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Also this morning someone in the group started screaming about First Amendment rights and fascism, so I'm pretty sure I made the right decision. :)
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:06 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:06 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
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This is plenty, and more than is required from you. I would suggest you do that and remove the archive after three months (end of summer vacation). You’ve done a great service to the community but let an internet stranger reassure you: you don’t owe them anything. Anyone who’s been seeing the brouhaha and has their head screwed on straight (by my estimation, 60-80% of the users) will be mildly sad but will completely understand your reasons for needing to step away from the toxicity. It’ll be okay!
posted by Zephyrial at 6:11 PM on May 22, 2019 [38 favorites]