Do I go into debt and buy a car for a CHANCE at peace?
May 3, 2019 12:35 PM Subscribe
This is a really insane situation involving family politics, memory loss, and a 14-year-old car. I'm just not sure what to do, or if I even attempt repairing a damaged relationship with my mother.
BACKGROUND:
My mother is suffering from dementia. Her memory is shot. It's been going downhill for a few years, though she doesn't have a diagnosis. Yet it's bad. We, her children, have all noticed it and tried to talk to her about it, but she won't listen.
My father died last year. His pride and joy in life was not his wife, not his children, it was his car. Much like the Ferrari in Ferris Bueller, he was covetous of his red Mercedes convertible. He traded it for newer models a couple of times, but when he died he had a 2006 Mercedes.
I have a semi-estranged relationship with my parents. They were emotionally abusive, and a couple times physically so. After an emotional manipulation in 2005 I didn't speak to either one for ten years. (I'm 44, married, and make a good living not reliant on anyone financially). When my father fell ill in 2015 I reconciled somewhat with my parents and helped with his health care. After his death, due to my mother's memory issues, I helped with doctor's appointments, etc.
CURRENT SITUATION:
My dad died, my mother hated driving the car so she gave it to me. All my siblings were encouraging that as I am the only son and named after my father.
The car soon became an albatross. Maintenance on the 14 year old car was expensive. Insurance was very high. It requires premium gas and the mileage was terrible. The technology in it was so old and I found out it was literally impossible to upgrade the deck.
I talked to my mother and told her KBB on the car was $6k and I was looking at more than that in the next year in repairs and maintenance. I asked her "Do you have an emotional attachment to the car?" I asked her "Do you want me to get the car back to you and you can fix it or whatever?" Her answer was repeatedly and dispassionately "No, it's your car, do what you want."
I traded it in.
The day I signed the papers my mother got very upset at the loss of this car, ugly crying and saying it's "another piece of your father gone. Soon there will be nothing left."
She called all my siblings telling them how awful and greedy I am. She asked me if I could get it back and I said no, I signed contracts.
This was last Monday. My mother hasn't spoken to me since.
I contacted the dealership. I CAN get the car back. It would require going into debt nearly $10,000 due to repairs the dealership has made to the vehicle. I have to make a decision today as there's another buyer interested in the car.
I talked to my sister and asked, and she suggested I get the car back and that's the only way my mother will forgive me. But it's merely a CHANCE at forgiveness (and, mind you, she's forgiving me for ASKING her and getting her "OK" before I traded the car in...)
I don't know what to do.
Summary:
*I don't want the car.
*The car is very expensive to keep (Insurance, gas, maintenance, all very high cost)
*The car is 14 years old (but only 30k miles)
*My mother isn't speaking to me and thinks I've ripped her off.
*I'd go into $10,000 in debt getting back this car
*There's no guarantee my mother will "forgive" me (though, again, I did nothing wrong)
*Due to my mother's dementia there's no guarantee even if she "forgives" this that another perceived slight won't rupture the relationship again.
I lived without my parents for 10 years. I can do so for the rest of my life if I must...but I'd prefer to see my mother's final years be comfortable and I wanted to help her with that.
I honestly don't know which way to go... what would you do?
BACKGROUND:
My mother is suffering from dementia. Her memory is shot. It's been going downhill for a few years, though she doesn't have a diagnosis. Yet it's bad. We, her children, have all noticed it and tried to talk to her about it, but she won't listen.
My father died last year. His pride and joy in life was not his wife, not his children, it was his car. Much like the Ferrari in Ferris Bueller, he was covetous of his red Mercedes convertible. He traded it for newer models a couple of times, but when he died he had a 2006 Mercedes.
I have a semi-estranged relationship with my parents. They were emotionally abusive, and a couple times physically so. After an emotional manipulation in 2005 I didn't speak to either one for ten years. (I'm 44, married, and make a good living not reliant on anyone financially). When my father fell ill in 2015 I reconciled somewhat with my parents and helped with his health care. After his death, due to my mother's memory issues, I helped with doctor's appointments, etc.
CURRENT SITUATION:
My dad died, my mother hated driving the car so she gave it to me. All my siblings were encouraging that as I am the only son and named after my father.
The car soon became an albatross. Maintenance on the 14 year old car was expensive. Insurance was very high. It requires premium gas and the mileage was terrible. The technology in it was so old and I found out it was literally impossible to upgrade the deck.
I talked to my mother and told her KBB on the car was $6k and I was looking at more than that in the next year in repairs and maintenance. I asked her "Do you have an emotional attachment to the car?" I asked her "Do you want me to get the car back to you and you can fix it or whatever?" Her answer was repeatedly and dispassionately "No, it's your car, do what you want."
I traded it in.
The day I signed the papers my mother got very upset at the loss of this car, ugly crying and saying it's "another piece of your father gone. Soon there will be nothing left."
She called all my siblings telling them how awful and greedy I am. She asked me if I could get it back and I said no, I signed contracts.
This was last Monday. My mother hasn't spoken to me since.
I contacted the dealership. I CAN get the car back. It would require going into debt nearly $10,000 due to repairs the dealership has made to the vehicle. I have to make a decision today as there's another buyer interested in the car.
I talked to my sister and asked, and she suggested I get the car back and that's the only way my mother will forgive me. But it's merely a CHANCE at forgiveness (and, mind you, she's forgiving me for ASKING her and getting her "OK" before I traded the car in...)
I don't know what to do.
Summary:
*I don't want the car.
*The car is very expensive to keep (Insurance, gas, maintenance, all very high cost)
*The car is 14 years old (but only 30k miles)
*My mother isn't speaking to me and thinks I've ripped her off.
*I'd go into $10,000 in debt getting back this car
*There's no guarantee my mother will "forgive" me (though, again, I did nothing wrong)
*Due to my mother's dementia there's no guarantee even if she "forgives" this that another perceived slight won't rupture the relationship again.
I lived without my parents for 10 years. I can do so for the rest of my life if I must...but I'd prefer to see my mother's final years be comfortable and I wanted to help her with that.
I honestly don't know which way to go... what would you do?
Don't go into debt for a woman who if you get the car back might forget as to why she was mad at you in the first place. "no that's not possible" and a subject change is a good tactic for dealing with people with dementia. I'm so sorry you're going through this.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 12:38 PM on May 3, 2019 [68 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 12:38 PM on May 3, 2019 [68 favorites]
Ditch the car. Getting it back wouldn't fix a damn thing.
posted by aramaic at 12:38 PM on May 3, 2019 [47 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 12:38 PM on May 3, 2019 [47 favorites]
Don't do it. My mother has moderate dementia, it sounds like a little more advanced than your mother. For the last 5 years or so she has constantly changed her mind about things as well as ascribing all sorts of emotional value to stuff. So much stuff. Expense stuff that was becoming a danger to her. We have had some huge conflicts, all of which she has now forgotten. But there's always another to take its place. There's no making her happy, no matter how much you sacrifice. You need to do what's best for you because you won't be able to satisfy her no matter what you do.
posted by primate moon at 12:40 PM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by primate moon at 12:40 PM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
Oh god. I'm so sorry.
If you can say to mom and siblings. "I asked mom directly if she had an emotional attachment to the car and if she wanted to keep the car. She repeatedly told me no and to do what I wanted with it. So I sold it. I am sorry that since that conversation, mom has changed her mind. To buy the car back from the dealership will cost an addition $10k because they've done a ton of repairs. Not only do I not have that money, but I also don't want the car. If any of you want the car, I am happy to help facilitate your communication with the dealership. I am sorry about the hurt feelings."
If anything like this happens in the future, get the agreement to sell the car in writing. Maybe you could have also checked with your siblings before selling it.
posted by k8t at 12:40 PM on May 3, 2019 [45 favorites]
If you can say to mom and siblings. "I asked mom directly if she had an emotional attachment to the car and if she wanted to keep the car. She repeatedly told me no and to do what I wanted with it. So I sold it. I am sorry that since that conversation, mom has changed her mind. To buy the car back from the dealership will cost an addition $10k because they've done a ton of repairs. Not only do I not have that money, but I also don't want the car. If any of you want the car, I am happy to help facilitate your communication with the dealership. I am sorry about the hurt feelings."
If anything like this happens in the future, get the agreement to sell the car in writing. Maybe you could have also checked with your siblings before selling it.
posted by k8t at 12:40 PM on May 3, 2019 [45 favorites]
No, do not try to get the car back. It won't work, and you would be saddled with a huge debt for nothing.
posted by sarcasticah at 12:41 PM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by sarcasticah at 12:41 PM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
Someday soon there's going to be a day when your mom is gone and you'll be holding onto a Merc /and/ paying down this debt.
posted by Fukiyama at 12:42 PM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Fukiyama at 12:42 PM on May 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
No. Don't get it back. I can just about guarantee that even if you jump through all those hoops and take on that debt, her story will change yet again and she will either not remember that she ugly cried and guilt-tripped you into spending 10K to get the car back, or she'll rewrite history to claim it never happened.
Can you set the record straight with your siblings, at least? I would hope they would believe you, knowing your mom's condition and your family history.
I'm sorry you are in this situation. It sounds very hard.
posted by anderjen at 12:43 PM on May 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
Can you set the record straight with your siblings, at least? I would hope they would believe you, knowing your mom's condition and your family history.
I'm sorry you are in this situation. It sounds very hard.
posted by anderjen at 12:43 PM on May 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
yea, you tried your best, you asked her ahead of time if trading it in would be ok, that's just too much money to do something that may not even have an effect. Maybe there is something else you can do to help make her comfortable that is a more reasonable cost, like someone to help with housecleaning or cooking?
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 12:47 PM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 12:47 PM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Your mom is upset about losing her husband, not the car. Getting it back won't help.
posted by 10ch at 12:50 PM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by 10ch at 12:50 PM on May 3, 2019 [12 favorites]
Response by poster: 5 13 23 42 -- my mother is exceptionally wealthy. I am not. She doesn't need my financial assistance. But, like my father with his car, my mother is a miser. I have never asked her for a penny since the reconciliation 4 years ago because she is so paranoid that everyone wants her money. That is feeding into this paranoia about the car--that I took it just to sell. Not the intent, I took it to drive and enjoy and found there was no enjoyment in its constant repairs.
Anderjen -- My siblings and I have a "complicated" relationship as well. One I talked to immediately before and after talking to my mom and getting the OK to sell the car. And another 100% believes my story. However the third one has my mother's ear like Wormtongue from Lord of the Rings. I firmly believe she is ENCOURAGING my mother's negative thoughts about me... So that is what it is....
posted by arniec at 12:51 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Anderjen -- My siblings and I have a "complicated" relationship as well. One I talked to immediately before and after talking to my mom and getting the OK to sell the car. And another 100% believes my story. However the third one has my mother's ear like Wormtongue from Lord of the Rings. I firmly believe she is ENCOURAGING my mother's negative thoughts about me... So that is what it is....
posted by arniec at 12:51 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
From experience with a grandmother who did many of the same arguments: Don't buy back the car. Give her space to be (unreasonably) angry. Give yourself space to be safe. Check in again every now and then to see if she wants a relationship. Check out if she continues to try manipulating you.
It's not really about the car. I've seen the same fights go down over broken furniture. It's about her grief-bomb and the emotional manipulation in your relationship.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:54 PM on May 3, 2019 [19 favorites]
It's not really about the car. I've seen the same fights go down over broken furniture. It's about her grief-bomb and the emotional manipulation in your relationship.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:54 PM on May 3, 2019 [19 favorites]
With her dementia, this paranoia is not going to go away and it will probably get worse. Even if you get the car back, she may forget she wanted it back and say it's OK to get rid of it. She might accuse you of getting rid of it even if you did get it back. She might decide you're stealing from her in some other way. It's very likely her thoughts aren't going to reflect reality, and it will be worse a year from now.
Unfortunately, you've got a very hard road ahead with this, so you need to take care of yourself. Getting the car back will make things worse for you personally and will not make things better for your mother. So no, don't get it back. If your siblings want to buy it, offer to facilitate.
(I feel you with the sibling encouraging negative thoughts about you. We had that happen in our family. The person with dementia was manipulated to turn against the person who had been taking care of her. Total shitshow with thousands spent on lawyers. I hope it goes better for you.)
posted by FencingGal at 1:02 PM on May 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
Unfortunately, you've got a very hard road ahead with this, so you need to take care of yourself. Getting the car back will make things worse for you personally and will not make things better for your mother. So no, don't get it back. If your siblings want to buy it, offer to facilitate.
(I feel you with the sibling encouraging negative thoughts about you. We had that happen in our family. The person with dementia was manipulated to turn against the person who had been taking care of her. Total shitshow with thousands spent on lawyers. I hope it goes better for you.)
posted by FencingGal at 1:02 PM on May 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
I have lived this. I work in the senior and memory care industry. I am attending a charity event for the Alzheimer's Society of Canada this very weekend. I have so much empathy for you and your family and for the incredibly difficult period that sounds like is just around the corner. Trust me when I say that you need to start setting boundaries now. You need to come up with a plan with your siblings so that you can be united as your mother declines.
There is nothing worse than watching someone decline due to dementia. It is even worse when it is someone close to you. I don't want to scare you, but this is only the beginning. If you buy that car back she's going to forget in some way. She'll remember that she had to buy it back and tell that story to people. Or you'll take it back and park it somewhere and she is going to forget that your father had a 2006 Mercedes. She will remember one of the earlier ones and accuse you of trying to trick her. Or it will be something else and it will get worse. This car is just the first challenge of many.
The only way I would buy that car back is if the siblings split the cost (with you putting in whatever you got in trade in value plus your third of the difference).
On preview: walk away. If what you say about your sibling dynamics is true then there is nothing that you can do and it is only going to get worse. Wealth and dementia do not mix at the best of times. Add in denial of the disease, manipulative personalities, and at least one combative sibling and you are looking at a living nightmare. If I were in that situation I would disconnect myself immediately.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 1:03 PM on May 3, 2019 [31 favorites]
There is nothing worse than watching someone decline due to dementia. It is even worse when it is someone close to you. I don't want to scare you, but this is only the beginning. If you buy that car back she's going to forget in some way. She'll remember that she had to buy it back and tell that story to people. Or you'll take it back and park it somewhere and she is going to forget that your father had a 2006 Mercedes. She will remember one of the earlier ones and accuse you of trying to trick her. Or it will be something else and it will get worse. This car is just the first challenge of many.
The only way I would buy that car back is if the siblings split the cost (with you putting in whatever you got in trade in value plus your third of the difference).
On preview: walk away. If what you say about your sibling dynamics is true then there is nothing that you can do and it is only going to get worse. Wealth and dementia do not mix at the best of times. Add in denial of the disease, manipulative personalities, and at least one combative sibling and you are looking at a living nightmare. If I were in that situation I would disconnect myself immediately.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 1:03 PM on May 3, 2019 [31 favorites]
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think you should make up some lie about the dealer finding a mechanical problem that makes the car unsafe and unfixable and that for your own safety they wouldn't sell it back it to you. You are all very lucky that you sold it when you did. What a good thing Dad never got hurt driving it and got to enjoy it. Stick to the lie forever. Basically the car version of moving to a nice farm to play with the other dogs.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 1:07 PM on May 3, 2019 [90 favorites]
posted by Snarl Furillo at 1:07 PM on May 3, 2019 [90 favorites]
Are you afraid she’ll did inherit you if you don’t buy back the car?
Don’t be. She might disinherit you but it won’t be because you didn’t buy the car back.
It will be because she is toxic.
Or she might not disinherit you at all!
My husband has 7 older sisters and the will was (and is!!!) a nightmare.
His mother sewed discontent her whole life and everyone hates each other. He cut contact with most everyone and didn’t help her effectively with end of life issues (because she made it impossible!) but her will still reflected her final feelings etc.
She didn’t write anyone out (but she still scared everyone that she might!)
posted by catspajammies at 1:12 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Don’t be. She might disinherit you but it won’t be because you didn’t buy the car back.
It will be because she is toxic.
Or she might not disinherit you at all!
My husband has 7 older sisters and the will was (and is!!!) a nightmare.
His mother sewed discontent her whole life and everyone hates each other. He cut contact with most everyone and didn’t help her effectively with end of life issues (because she made it impossible!) but her will still reflected her final feelings etc.
She didn’t write anyone out (but she still scared everyone that she might!)
posted by catspajammies at 1:12 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
She's angry because her memory of her husband is fading and physical reminders of him make her feel some of the love she once had. The car was his favourite thing so she remembers the joy he felt, when she sees the car now. Her pain is entirely understandable.
THAT SAID, if having the car is a big deal to her, she should buy it and pay for its upkeep, not you. Any offloading of guilt to you is unjust manipulation and you should shed it like water off a duck's back.
Is it possible that a big poster print photos of him and the car would be just about as good for her, though? Something she can look at without having to go outside or pay insurance on.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:12 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
THAT SAID, if having the car is a big deal to her, she should buy it and pay for its upkeep, not you. Any offloading of guilt to you is unjust manipulation and you should shed it like water off a duck's back.
Is it possible that a big poster print photos of him and the car would be just about as good for her, though? Something she can look at without having to go outside or pay insurance on.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:12 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Ps- Snarl Furillo’s idea is AWESOME!
posted by catspajammies at 1:13 PM on May 3, 2019
posted by catspajammies at 1:13 PM on May 3, 2019
A couple questions that may be food for thought in helping you think through the situation:
1) Are you sure it was clear to your mother that you were asking her permission to sell it and not just repair it etc? Her response about "do what you want, it's your car" definitely differs depending on what she thought she was giving you permission to do.
2) Everyone seems to be assuming her about-face on this (assuming it is indeed an about-face rather than a misunderstanding, see (1) above) is due to dementia. But if she is as emotionally abusive as you say, it could easily have nothing to do with dementia. My emotionally abusive and manipulative mother has no dementia and would do an about-face like this.
posted by sunflower16 at 1:15 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
1) Are you sure it was clear to your mother that you were asking her permission to sell it and not just repair it etc? Her response about "do what you want, it's your car" definitely differs depending on what she thought she was giving you permission to do.
2) Everyone seems to be assuming her about-face on this (assuming it is indeed an about-face rather than a misunderstanding, see (1) above) is due to dementia. But if she is as emotionally abusive as you say, it could easily have nothing to do with dementia. My emotionally abusive and manipulative mother has no dementia and would do an about-face like this.
posted by sunflower16 at 1:15 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
She's not going to remember that you got the car back.
My grandmother, now deceased, did this to my cousin, claiming that my cousin stole her car and sold it. Grandma would bad mouth that cousin any time she could. But, Grandma TOLD my cousin to sell it. Grandma couldn't even drive anymore and lived in assisted living.
It is not worth it at all. You can not fix this no matter what you do. And throwing away money will not solve the problem.
posted by jillithd at 1:17 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
My grandmother, now deceased, did this to my cousin, claiming that my cousin stole her car and sold it. Grandma would bad mouth that cousin any time she could. But, Grandma TOLD my cousin to sell it. Grandma couldn't even drive anymore and lived in assisted living.
It is not worth it at all. You can not fix this no matter what you do. And throwing away money will not solve the problem.
posted by jillithd at 1:17 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Here is my thought process as I was reading your question:
Oh great, some asshole who likes cars better than people. That never ends well.
Abusive parents, shit. This is going to get messy.
WHAT?! They gave you the car? Nooooo, it's a trap!
Ok, you did pretty well with the car. Followed through on parents' wishes, they must like that.
Now time to get rid of the car! YES!!!!!!!! You did it! Right on! Good job getting parental buy-in first, that will avoid a total shitsh....
Uh-oh, of course the abusive parent is still being abusive. Fortunately the car is already sold and there is nothing more you can possibly...
WHAT?! You called the dealer?! NOOOOOOOOOO! DON'T CALL THE DEALER! IT'S A TRAP! IT'S A FUCKING GIGANTIC TRAP!!!!!!!!! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! [scream degenerates into frustrated gargling]
----------------------
You are trying so hard here, but you cannot win. Your abusive demented mother is going to dementedly abuse you no matter what you do. Your siblings are not on your side, they are not standing up for you. It's time to say fuck all y'all and focus on what is good for YOU, not trying to placate the demented abuser.
Celebrate getting rid of the car. It was a weight pulling you down. Now you can fly like an eagle! Fly! Fly away from these shitheads!
posted by medusa at 1:18 PM on May 3, 2019 [91 favorites]
Oh great, some asshole who likes cars better than people. That never ends well.
Abusive parents, shit. This is going to get messy.
WHAT?! They gave you the car? Nooooo, it's a trap!
Ok, you did pretty well with the car. Followed through on parents' wishes, they must like that.
Now time to get rid of the car! YES!!!!!!!! You did it! Right on! Good job getting parental buy-in first, that will avoid a total shitsh....
Uh-oh, of course the abusive parent is still being abusive. Fortunately the car is already sold and there is nothing more you can possibly...
WHAT?! You called the dealer?! NOOOOOOOOOO! DON'T CALL THE DEALER! IT'S A TRAP! IT'S A FUCKING GIGANTIC TRAP!!!!!!!!! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! [scream degenerates into frustrated gargling]
----------------------
You are trying so hard here, but you cannot win. Your abusive demented mother is going to dementedly abuse you no matter what you do. Your siblings are not on your side, they are not standing up for you. It's time to say fuck all y'all and focus on what is good for YOU, not trying to placate the demented abuser.
Celebrate getting rid of the car. It was a weight pulling you down. Now you can fly like an eagle! Fly! Fly away from these shitheads!
posted by medusa at 1:18 PM on May 3, 2019 [91 favorites]
Don’t buy it back, your complicated family members will find other things to be upset about. It is also irrelevant, what your mother thought she was giving permission for-you made a good faith effort to ascertain her feelings on this and that’s all anybody can ask for. If your more complicated family members disagree that speaks to them being unreasonable, not you doing anything wrong.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:21 PM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:21 PM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I lived without my parents for 10 years. I can do so for the rest of my life if I must...but I'd prefer to see my mother's final years be comfortable and I wanted to help her with that.
I gotta agree with the majority that you did everything right in this terrible situation, and I want to add that the best thing for all of you sounds like going back to your state of non-contact. Your mother has her own money and plenty of other kids and you have to live your own life free from this abuse, whether she knows what she's doing or not.
posted by bleep at 1:28 PM on May 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
The money you got from selling the car? It might seem like it doesn't even cover the cost of the repairs you already did, your time solving other problems for your mom, etc.
However, if you want to have a good (as much as possible) relationship with your family members -- and you probably do -- split the money three ways and give a share to each of the siblings OR, even better, have them come to agreement on a charity to receive it.
Don't even keep a share for yourself, or do, your choice. Let them and your Mom know what you're doing with the money. Paint yourself as the hero you are.
posted by amtho at 1:30 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
However, if you want to have a good (as much as possible) relationship with your family members -- and you probably do -- split the money three ways and give a share to each of the siblings OR, even better, have them come to agreement on a charity to receive it.
Don't even keep a share for yourself, or do, your choice. Let them and your Mom know what you're doing with the money. Paint yourself as the hero you are.
posted by amtho at 1:30 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
But if she is as emotionally abusive as you say, it could easily have nothing to do with dementia. My emotionally abusive and manipulative mother has no dementia and would do an about-face like this.
Agreeing with this so hard - my grandmother was very manipulative and would absolutely pull shit like this to create drama and make everyone scurry to do her bidding. I use the past tense describing her because I haven't talked to her in a loooong time. There was no way to make her happy, and all I (and the rest of the family) could do was just get the hell out of her life. I have lots of sympathy for you here arniec.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:40 PM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Agreeing with this so hard - my grandmother was very manipulative and would absolutely pull shit like this to create drama and make everyone scurry to do her bidding. I use the past tense describing her because I haven't talked to her in a loooong time. There was no way to make her happy, and all I (and the rest of the family) could do was just get the hell out of her life. I have lots of sympathy for you here arniec.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:40 PM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Also from experience: She might nurse a grudge about this for the rest of her life regardless. And once you've established that you can be bullied into paying for her love, it might not end here.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:00 PM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:00 PM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
I would be tempted tell the objecting sibling(s) that they are welcome to buy the car from the dealer themselves, or pay you the $10,000. "Oh, you love the car so much and want to make Mom happy? They will be happy to sell it to you!"
Think the white lie answer is the best, however, my Mom's priest used to tell his parishioners it was okay to lie, as in, if your mother-in-law asks you if you like her new hat, of course you will say yes and God will forgive you. I'm not religious, but that's still good advice.
"Yes, I was sad to see it go too, Mom. But it had it's run, and it was beyond repair. Machines break down, but we will always have the memory of Dad and his car." Or something like that.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:07 PM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Think the white lie answer is the best, however, my Mom's priest used to tell his parishioners it was okay to lie, as in, if your mother-in-law asks you if you like her new hat, of course you will say yes and God will forgive you. I'm not religious, but that's still good advice.
"Yes, I was sad to see it go too, Mom. But it had it's run, and it was beyond repair. Machines break down, but we will always have the memory of Dad and his car." Or something like that.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:07 PM on May 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
My mom has dementia. We go through this all the time. She'll agree to something, then later pitch a fit. It's a characteristic of the disease. She also periodically fixates on things that she used to use, or use to do, to emotionally manipulate me. She's no longer doing this on purpose; the dementia's progressed too far. She's simply doing it out of a lifetime of habit that even dementia hasn't fully erased.
I strongly suspect there's a similar dynamic going on with your mother. Which means that if you got the car back, it wouldn't make any difference. If you don't get the car back, after a few more weeks she'll let go of this fixation and move onto to another. If you're unlucky it'll be another emotionally manipulative thing to yank you and your siblings' chains just out of long habit.
I'm sorry. It's hard.
posted by Lunaloon at 2:09 PM on May 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
I strongly suspect there's a similar dynamic going on with your mother. Which means that if you got the car back, it wouldn't make any difference. If you don't get the car back, after a few more weeks she'll let go of this fixation and move onto to another. If you're unlucky it'll be another emotionally manipulative thing to yank you and your siblings' chains just out of long habit.
I'm sorry. It's hard.
posted by Lunaloon at 2:09 PM on May 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
As several folks said upthread, (a) it's not really about the car; and (b) it wouldn't make any difference if you did get the car back, she'd just find some other way to abuse you.
My mother was less abusive during my childhood than yours, but her dementia made her angry, paranoid, and inconsistent. She could not be pinned down to anything, and lashed out viciously at family members when the disease made her think we were taking advantage of her. When her 15-year-old golden retriever was in the final stage of heart failure in her home and my sister took him to the vet to be put down, Mom forgot about the dog's illness and screamed at my sister for "killing my dog".
There is nothing you can do at this point that you can be sure will satisfy her, because she cannot be satisfied. It's a function of the disease.
What you can do is protect yourself as much as you can, and although it sounds difficult, try to get your siblings to agree to a plan up front. Your mother will soon be unable to manage her finances or her own care, and unless you all want to walk away, some steps need to be taken to provide for that.
Whatever you do, I recommend you get some kind of agreement from your siblings in writing, even if it's just an email chain, so your mother can't rewrite history for the one most susceptible to her claims.
The demented are often extremely convincing, and it's often preferable to believe that someone has taken advantage of her than it is to believe her mind is failing. This is true of other family members, as well, not just the demented person themselves.
Good luck to you, and I'm glad you sold the car!
posted by suelac at 2:21 PM on May 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
My mother was less abusive during my childhood than yours, but her dementia made her angry, paranoid, and inconsistent. She could not be pinned down to anything, and lashed out viciously at family members when the disease made her think we were taking advantage of her. When her 15-year-old golden retriever was in the final stage of heart failure in her home and my sister took him to the vet to be put down, Mom forgot about the dog's illness and screamed at my sister for "killing my dog".
There is nothing you can do at this point that you can be sure will satisfy her, because she cannot be satisfied. It's a function of the disease.
What you can do is protect yourself as much as you can, and although it sounds difficult, try to get your siblings to agree to a plan up front. Your mother will soon be unable to manage her finances or her own care, and unless you all want to walk away, some steps need to be taken to provide for that.
Whatever you do, I recommend you get some kind of agreement from your siblings in writing, even if it's just an email chain, so your mother can't rewrite history for the one most susceptible to her claims.
The demented are often extremely convincing, and it's often preferable to believe that someone has taken advantage of her than it is to believe her mind is failing. This is true of other family members, as well, not just the demented person themselves.
Good luck to you, and I'm glad you sold the car!
posted by suelac at 2:21 PM on May 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
You could offer a compromise of a diecast Mercedes, possibly of the same model.
posted by rhizome at 2:40 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 2:40 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Give her space to be (unreasonably) angry. Give yourself space to be safe. Check in again every now and then to see if she wants a relationship. Check out if she continues to try manipulating you.
Yep, this was a trap from the beginning. I am so sorry family stuff is a mess. When my emotionally abusive parents died over the past decade, there is a large part of me that misses them, and having parents, and all the rest, and a small part of me that was relieved and like "OK, they are done fucking with you all the time."
Even though I don't honestly think my parents could help their own weirdness, it was still traumatic and the saving grace is that my sister (who is alive) and me agree on our narrative (mom and dad were not great parents, they did things that were very not cool, even though they may not have meant to be doing bad things) and we are friends and we value relationship harmony over everything else. Over "winning," over money, over everything. Your family isn't in that place and I am sorry but I'd cut your losses, play slightly dumb "Oh hey I asked and then I did it and I'm sorry about mom but this is what has already happened"
You don't start doing irrational things because people who are not nice to you are behaving irrationally. Dementia is hard for the people who have it (esp when they're still partway there) and hard for people who are living with people with it. You may have more tough decisions to make in the future I'd start setting boundaries now. Again, I am sorry.
posted by jessamyn at 2:55 PM on May 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
Yep, this was a trap from the beginning. I am so sorry family stuff is a mess. When my emotionally abusive parents died over the past decade, there is a large part of me that misses them, and having parents, and all the rest, and a small part of me that was relieved and like "OK, they are done fucking with you all the time."
Even though I don't honestly think my parents could help their own weirdness, it was still traumatic and the saving grace is that my sister (who is alive) and me agree on our narrative (mom and dad were not great parents, they did things that were very not cool, even though they may not have meant to be doing bad things) and we are friends and we value relationship harmony over everything else. Over "winning," over money, over everything. Your family isn't in that place and I am sorry but I'd cut your losses, play slightly dumb "Oh hey I asked and then I did it and I'm sorry about mom but this is what has already happened"
You don't start doing irrational things because people who are not nice to you are behaving irrationally. Dementia is hard for the people who have it (esp when they're still partway there) and hard for people who are living with people with it. You may have more tough decisions to make in the future I'd start setting boundaries now. Again, I am sorry.
posted by jessamyn at 2:55 PM on May 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
This is kind of the definition of an unreasonable expectation--it's always unreasonable to try to make someone happy, but ten times as much if it involves a state wherein you're expected to pay large sums of money on an ongoing basis and keep guessing at what the other person wants even when it's contrary to their expressed wishes. You have to stick to taking only the responsibilities that are really yours. Do your part to make sure she stays healthy and safe. Particularly do your part to make sure that your sisters do not take on undue burden to handle all of this stuff without you, even if she is unpleasant to deal with; do this for them, though, not with some idea that it will render your mom a happier person than she is. There will be, in the years that come, plenty of opportunities to do things that need to be done; this is not that.
I'd mostly suggest just making sure you communicate to your sisters the same stuff you've told us: You don't want the car, nobody with any sense would want the car, and you gave your mom opportunities to object to this ahead of time. The car is gone. Don't talk about it, if possible, like you had a real reasonable chance to get it back, because you never did.
posted by Sequence at 4:18 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I'd mostly suggest just making sure you communicate to your sisters the same stuff you've told us: You don't want the car, nobody with any sense would want the car, and you gave your mom opportunities to object to this ahead of time. The car is gone. Don't talk about it, if possible, like you had a real reasonable chance to get it back, because you never did.
posted by Sequence at 4:18 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
It’s only an old beater car. It will rust away soon enough. All this toxic energy over a pile of metal.
Let it go.
posted by spitbull at 4:21 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Let it go.
posted by spitbull at 4:21 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Umnn, if you did get the car back, how would your mom or siblings know? Would she expect to sit in it?
What if you just lied and said you got it back, maybe send her a photo-shopped selfie or two with it?
posted by Sophont at 5:04 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
What if you just lied and said you got it back, maybe send her a photo-shopped selfie or two with it?
posted by Sophont at 5:04 PM on May 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Take her to visit the car and say her goodbyes, and reminisce about how much your father loved it together.
Don't mention the fight and see if she forgets it in the emotion of possibly getting enough- a chance to remember her husband.
Don't buy it. Take a picture of him in it and blow it up really big and put it on the wall for her if you think that might help. Take a pic while you're visiting too.
posted by cacao at 8:36 PM on May 3, 2019
Don't mention the fight and see if she forgets it in the emotion of possibly getting enough- a chance to remember her husband.
Don't buy it. Take a picture of him in it and blow it up really big and put it on the wall for her if you think that might help. Take a pic while you're visiting too.
posted by cacao at 8:36 PM on May 3, 2019
I think the symbolic or ceremonial car thing is a bad idea at this stage. Maybe you could include it as part of a photo album or scrapbook of memories of your father. On its own, you're just throwing her a consolation prize, and she'll probably see it as such and still blame you for selling the car.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 10:24 PM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 10:24 PM on May 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
> mind you, she's forgiving me for ASKING her and getting her "OK" before I traded the car in...
You're thinking rationally. She's not. She can't.
posted by megatherium at 4:54 AM on May 4, 2019 [4 favorites]
You're thinking rationally. She's not. She can't.
posted by megatherium at 4:54 AM on May 4, 2019 [4 favorites]
I went through a similar situation when my Dad died last year. After he was unable to drive, he gifted me his car, which I held onto for him until he passed away. I too was shocked at what an albatross the car was - while the thought of a car as a gift sounds extravagant and wonderful, this too was an older car worth around the same amount, and maintenance was a continual expense and hassle that exceeded any value the car had.
Like you, after he passed away, I traded in the car. While I didn't get the level of guilt trip from my family that you did, it was similar - he loved the car, and there was some emotion in letting it go. But I need to tell you, if I were in your shoes, I would not buy back that car under any circumstance.
Cars these days have an average lifespan of 11 or 12 years. Your Dad's car was already on borrowed time, and the maintenance hassles were evidence of that. Here's the question - at what point would it have been OK with your Mom to get rid of the car? The answer may legitimately be "never". In all likelihood, by accepting the car as a gift, you were going to get this reaction at some other point when you found the service costs excessive and you had to get rid of the car. It could have been even worse if it got wrecked or stolen!
If you pay the $10,000 and get it back, unless you have space to securely garage an unserviced car until your Mom passes away, you will almost certainly have to go through this again in a couple of years.
At the end of the day, your Mom isn't grieving the car, she's grieving your Dad's death, and the loss of the car is symbolic of that and painful for her. But loss is inevitable, and only time and acceptance can help cure things here. Spending the money won't make things better, but time and patience probably will.
Best of luck.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 8:24 AM on May 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
Like you, after he passed away, I traded in the car. While I didn't get the level of guilt trip from my family that you did, it was similar - he loved the car, and there was some emotion in letting it go. But I need to tell you, if I were in your shoes, I would not buy back that car under any circumstance.
Cars these days have an average lifespan of 11 or 12 years. Your Dad's car was already on borrowed time, and the maintenance hassles were evidence of that. Here's the question - at what point would it have been OK with your Mom to get rid of the car? The answer may legitimately be "never". In all likelihood, by accepting the car as a gift, you were going to get this reaction at some other point when you found the service costs excessive and you had to get rid of the car. It could have been even worse if it got wrecked or stolen!
If you pay the $10,000 and get it back, unless you have space to securely garage an unserviced car until your Mom passes away, you will almost certainly have to go through this again in a couple of years.
At the end of the day, your Mom isn't grieving the car, she's grieving your Dad's death, and the loss of the car is symbolic of that and painful for her. But loss is inevitable, and only time and acceptance can help cure things here. Spending the money won't make things better, but time and patience probably will.
Best of luck.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 8:24 AM on May 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
Seems to me like you kept your agreements, were up front and honest, even asked for input from your mother ahead of time and got a green light. There's nothing in that scenario that prevents you from selling a vehicle you basically own outright and can do whatever you please with, including moving it out of your life as a time and money sinkhole.
Should you go and try to reclaim a vehicle that is no longer yours at great expense in a probably futile attempt to repair your relationship with your mother?
I don't see any upsides to doing that. It's got fail written all over it. If your family system is such that your siblings cannot understand and support you against your mother's gaslighting, then perhaps you are better off being estranged.
You have already experienced an abusive parental relationship, know your mother has dementia and are now experiencing an unreasonable attack on your well being and family relationships.
If your siblings are enabling making you into the 'evil outsider' then you should ghost your family. It's not worth the craziness.
posted by diode at 9:15 AM on May 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
Should you go and try to reclaim a vehicle that is no longer yours at great expense in a probably futile attempt to repair your relationship with your mother?
I don't see any upsides to doing that. It's got fail written all over it. If your family system is such that your siblings cannot understand and support you against your mother's gaslighting, then perhaps you are better off being estranged.
You have already experienced an abusive parental relationship, know your mother has dementia and are now experiencing an unreasonable attack on your well being and family relationships.
If your siblings are enabling making you into the 'evil outsider' then you should ghost your family. It's not worth the craziness.
posted by diode at 9:15 AM on May 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
my mother is exceptionally wealthy
Let her buy the car back if she wants it so badly. Seriously. Give her the dealership's number and let them rake her over the coals on the price if it's so important to her.
posted by axiom at 12:37 PM on May 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
Let her buy the car back if she wants it so badly. Seriously. Give her the dealership's number and let them rake her over the coals on the price if it's so important to her.
posted by axiom at 12:37 PM on May 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
Oh man ...
I can only go by what you wrote. Your Mom is “exceptionally wealthy”, and one of your sisters is bad-mouthing you to Mom? Forget about the car - it sounds like one or (or more) of your sisters is maneuvering to maximize their inheritance. It sounds like you don’t *care* about any inheritance - but Wormtongue “just wants to be sure”.
Hey, I could be wrong. I *hope* I’m wrong. But if it’s scheming over an inheritance that you don’t care about, then just be the best son you can be and try to avoid getting pulled into the drama.
If any of this rings true to you, and the inheritance situation matters to you - then maybe what you need is a lawyer.
posted by doctor tough love at 2:25 PM on May 4, 2019 [4 favorites]
I can only go by what you wrote. Your Mom is “exceptionally wealthy”, and one of your sisters is bad-mouthing you to Mom? Forget about the car - it sounds like one or (or more) of your sisters is maneuvering to maximize their inheritance. It sounds like you don’t *care* about any inheritance - but Wormtongue “just wants to be sure”.
Hey, I could be wrong. I *hope* I’m wrong. But if it’s scheming over an inheritance that you don’t care about, then just be the best son you can be and try to avoid getting pulled into the drama.
If any of this rings true to you, and the inheritance situation matters to you - then maybe what you need is a lawyer.
posted by doctor tough love at 2:25 PM on May 4, 2019 [4 favorites]
The day I signed the papers my mother got very upset at the loss of this car, ugly crying and saying it's "another piece of your father gone. Soon there will be nothing left."
This is full-on manipulative behavior. Start from there.
posted by bendy at 3:47 AM on May 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
This is full-on manipulative behavior. Start from there.
posted by bendy at 3:47 AM on May 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
Nothing you do will make her less unhappy with you, because she has some deep misery at her core. Drama and emotional entanglement provide temporary relief, but are obviously quite damaging. Don't participate.
Mom: OMG, The car is an substitute for the person, and I am freaking out. Arniec: It's really hard to lose him. Ageing is hard because it's one loss after another. I know you miss him. Don't engage specifically about the car, engage only to address her genuine sense of fear and loss. A helpful technique is distraction. Keep a mental list of topics. How are your bunions/ sciatica/ arthritis? Did you see Game of Thrones/ Grey's Anatomy/ Call the Midwife?
Music. She probably has a tape player or cd player, if not, this is easily resolved. Let's say she was born in 1945, was in high school in 1960. Get cds of popular music for 1960. Music memory is stored in a different area of the brain, and does not decay the same way in dementia. Familiar and loved music can be comforting. Also, sending her tapes or cds gives you something to discuss that is not likely to cause toxic drama. Send plants/bulbs. My Mom would give me detailed reports on the amaryllis I sent.
posted by theora55 at 7:23 AM on May 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
Mom: OMG, The car is an substitute for the person, and I am freaking out. Arniec: It's really hard to lose him. Ageing is hard because it's one loss after another. I know you miss him. Don't engage specifically about the car, engage only to address her genuine sense of fear and loss. A helpful technique is distraction. Keep a mental list of topics. How are your bunions/ sciatica/ arthritis? Did you see Game of Thrones/ Grey's Anatomy/ Call the Midwife?
Music. She probably has a tape player or cd player, if not, this is easily resolved. Let's say she was born in 1945, was in high school in 1960. Get cds of popular music for 1960. Music memory is stored in a different area of the brain, and does not decay the same way in dementia. Familiar and loved music can be comforting. Also, sending her tapes or cds gives you something to discuss that is not likely to cause toxic drama. Send plants/bulbs. My Mom would give me detailed reports on the amaryllis I sent.
posted by theora55 at 7:23 AM on May 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
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