getting off & feeling bad.
March 20, 2019 10:45 PM Subscribe
the stuff that gets me off makes me feel bad.
when i masturbate, the things that get me off make me feel bad. specifically, things involving humiliation, insults, and being treated poorly. and after i get off, i cry and i feel really bad. these things are like people calling me fat or ugly or worthless.
i have pretty "normal" sex that does not involve this stuff, and i haven't asked any partners to engage in this with me. i would never want someone to actually say this stuff about me or to me. however, often i do fantasize about this while with a partner.
i would be fine with it if it didn't make me feel terrible about/during/after getting off. the other thing is that i really hate myself and these are things i think about myself. that's not fun either.
even writing about it right now makes me want to cry.
i really want to have getting off be separate from hating myself. how?
when i masturbate, the things that get me off make me feel bad. specifically, things involving humiliation, insults, and being treated poorly. and after i get off, i cry and i feel really bad. these things are like people calling me fat or ugly or worthless.
i have pretty "normal" sex that does not involve this stuff, and i haven't asked any partners to engage in this with me. i would never want someone to actually say this stuff about me or to me. however, often i do fantasize about this while with a partner.
i would be fine with it if it didn't make me feel terrible about/during/after getting off. the other thing is that i really hate myself and these are things i think about myself. that's not fun either.
even writing about it right now makes me want to cry.
i really want to have getting off be separate from hating myself. how?
It’s not unusual to be into this sort of stuff; in the right circumstances with the right people it can acutualy be pretty hot; as a gay male top I’ve had lads literally begging me for dirty talk and been happy to oblige. It’s a bit edgy and perhaps personal sometimes but meant in a role play way its not meant to be upsetting or disrespectful, and everyone comes away feeling good.
Nevertheless the fact that you feel so sad about it is probably a bit of a problem and with exploring with someone trained to do it would be a good move.
posted by Middlemarch at 3:41 AM on March 21, 2019
Nevertheless the fact that you feel so sad about it is probably a bit of a problem and with exploring with someone trained to do it would be a good move.
posted by Middlemarch at 3:41 AM on March 21, 2019
I'd be happy to share a different perspective / provide resources, if you'd like to Memail me.
posted by nightrecordings at 3:53 AM on March 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by nightrecordings at 3:53 AM on March 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
You should not feel bad, this is completely normal. I ran a porn site for women for years and years and by far the most read category was non-consent. What people want in their fantasies and their role-play does not what they want in their actual lives -- women do not want to be raped; that is what defines it as rape.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:42 AM on March 21, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 4:42 AM on March 21, 2019 [13 favorites]
the other thing is that i really hate myself and these are things i think about myself. that's not fun either.
This puts a different frame on things, though, right? If you're saying, "I feel worthless and these feelings surface in painful ways during sex", that's not the same as "I feel good about myself but feel conflicted about my fantasies" or even "I use fantasy to work through ambiguous feelings".
If you hate yourself and feel worthless, that's the underlying problem. The fantasies are unlikely to become enjoyable or directed onto something else while you have powerful feelings of self-hate churning around underneath, because it seems like what's happening is that they surface when you are vulnerable/in an intense state or else that you feel on some level like you only "deserve" to have sexual feelings if you're also reminded of how worthless you are. We live in a society where people tend to have a "sex is truth" mentality, too, so people feel that not only do sexual fantasies reveal something "true" about us but that our "worth" in the sexual market (are we, especially women and GLBTQ people, thin/often meeting white beauty standards/"hot"/young/etc) because that is the "truth" of what people are. Obviously this is wrong, ahistorical and stupid but it's difficult to shake.
If this is the correct reading, I strongly, strongly suggest that you seek a therapist who is familiar with various modalities and is willing just to talk (ie, not someone who will just be like "in six sessions, we'll CBT your problems away!") If you are in MPLS-St Paul, you are welcome to memail me for suggestions.
You don't need to go to a therapist and lead with "I have fantasies that make me feel bad" unless that's the starting point that you would like to use. But the underlying feelings of worthlessness and self-hate should get addressed.
I am here to tell you that you can address those feelings and not feel worthless. I used to feel worthless all the time. Now I don't. I'm not, like, an optimistic extrovert who feels like a star, but I am no longer tormented by overwhelming negative feelings.
posted by Frowner at 5:15 AM on March 21, 2019 [29 favorites]
This puts a different frame on things, though, right? If you're saying, "I feel worthless and these feelings surface in painful ways during sex", that's not the same as "I feel good about myself but feel conflicted about my fantasies" or even "I use fantasy to work through ambiguous feelings".
If you hate yourself and feel worthless, that's the underlying problem. The fantasies are unlikely to become enjoyable or directed onto something else while you have powerful feelings of self-hate churning around underneath, because it seems like what's happening is that they surface when you are vulnerable/in an intense state or else that you feel on some level like you only "deserve" to have sexual feelings if you're also reminded of how worthless you are. We live in a society where people tend to have a "sex is truth" mentality, too, so people feel that not only do sexual fantasies reveal something "true" about us but that our "worth" in the sexual market (are we, especially women and GLBTQ people, thin/often meeting white beauty standards/"hot"/young/etc) because that is the "truth" of what people are. Obviously this is wrong, ahistorical and stupid but it's difficult to shake.
If this is the correct reading, I strongly, strongly suggest that you seek a therapist who is familiar with various modalities and is willing just to talk (ie, not someone who will just be like "in six sessions, we'll CBT your problems away!") If you are in MPLS-St Paul, you are welcome to memail me for suggestions.
You don't need to go to a therapist and lead with "I have fantasies that make me feel bad" unless that's the starting point that you would like to use. But the underlying feelings of worthlessness and self-hate should get addressed.
I am here to tell you that you can address those feelings and not feel worthless. I used to feel worthless all the time. Now I don't. I'm not, like, an optimistic extrovert who feels like a star, but I am no longer tormented by overwhelming negative feelings.
posted by Frowner at 5:15 AM on March 21, 2019 [29 favorites]
I think you can find a way to enjoy these fantasies and have great sex with them, but it is going to take some work.
A few things to consider. Forgive me, this will be long, but I hope it will help.
Insulting people and treating them poorly is absolutely taboo in our society, and we learn this as very young children. Don't hit, fight or call names! And (ideally) we learn an appropriate sense of horror at those who transgress this boundary and shame when we transgress it. This is how we keep society civil (again, ideally!). If you didn't feel a reaction at this crossing this taboo, I would wonder if you were a sociopath or a danger to society. That reaction, that sense of horror, is part of your ethics and socialization and perfectly normal. And I would guess that part of the attraction is precisely that it is transgressive, which makes it exciting/desireable. So you have both excitement/desire -- and reasonable and necessary horror.
Some might think that this is a paradox, that you cannot have both, you must either not desire this taboo--or not find it horrifying. Turn off your desires, or be a sociopath. What if neither of those is possible? You must balance the desire with the horror.
The way this can work for some people is through a neat trick: make-believe and pretend play. You can take the (very real) taboo and pretend to break it, getting a little tingle (and attendant rush of horror), so long as you are just pretending. I think for people that can pull off that trick, the horror does not cross so easily into shame, because they are not really and truly breaking a social taboo. They are still good people. This is a little like people who like extreme sports - you can jump out of an airplane, and you really will fall, but you won't go splat with a parachute. They are not really suicidal, they do not really want to go splat. But they get a little tingle out of falling and the feeling that they are doing something human bodies are not supposed to do.
But if you are not pretending, the trick doesn't work. You might go splat, and you might be genuinely abusive.
So this:
the other thing is that i really hate myself and these are things i think about myself.
This is the real problem. I think you cannot develop a healthy relationship to this taboo, balancing excitement/desire and horror, if you cannot separate yourself into make-believe. But again, I don't think it's possible to turn off your desires, so my suggestion is to seek therapy for your self-hate and try to move your fantasies to a specific taboo that still gives you a tingle but doesn't attack your core sense of self. Something that is socially inappropriate, but not specifically true for you. Whatever words you are using for yourself that really hurt, stop using those! It is abusive, and you don't deserve to be abused, because you are a good person (I am sure of this, your clear question about your reasonable reaction to a taboo shows me). If you still want to play with humiliation, look around: is there something you can play with that is taboo enough to be exciting and makes you feel a bit horrified to think of, but doesn't make you feel so ashamed? Can you work on creating the make-believe?
For example, I am active in the BDSM community, and I know someone who is fat and pretty proud of that, she is a fat activist and plays with someone who calls her a "cute fat pig" and puts a little bow and pig tail on her. Because she's confident and happy with her body, she can play with this taboo, it's still very transgressive (I feel horrified just writing this) but it doesn't touch her core sense of self. She's dealt with people who called her fat and meant it, and such things mostly just bounce off her. Context matters, of course - if her mother said this it would might hurt a lot, but a sex partner is different. Probably the bow and tail also help, because props elevate make-believe to costume and theater, emphasizing the suspension of disbelief.
But another person I know feels bad about their body, never call them a "fat pig," that is automatically over the line for them. But they feel great about their academic and career achievements, and their fantasies they use "lazy." Still taboo! You should not insult people! But they know they are not lazy, they are accomplished, so the tingle and the spark of horror is there, but it feels balanced.
If you hate yourself in every single possible way, then perhaps you will not be able to create the make-believe and the balance that will allow you to be a socially ethical person and still enjoy the tingle yet. I don't know. But I wonder if there is something else you can use, different words or different scenarios, that will help you still get off without hurting yourself? And I also wonder, do you have a partner who loves you and supports you? What words could your partner use that would be exciting but feel OK? (A thought experiment, no need to ask if you don't want to).
Good luck. I think there is a way to create balance and respect yourself no matter what your desires. A good first step would be to recognize the things in your question that are healthy and good - your concern for your own well-being, your recognition of the social taboo, your desire to improve your sexual life, those are such good things to understand! I respect that and I hope you do too.
posted by Seven Windows at 6:50 AM on March 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
A few things to consider. Forgive me, this will be long, but I hope it will help.
Insulting people and treating them poorly is absolutely taboo in our society, and we learn this as very young children. Don't hit, fight or call names! And (ideally) we learn an appropriate sense of horror at those who transgress this boundary and shame when we transgress it. This is how we keep society civil (again, ideally!). If you didn't feel a reaction at this crossing this taboo, I would wonder if you were a sociopath or a danger to society. That reaction, that sense of horror, is part of your ethics and socialization and perfectly normal. And I would guess that part of the attraction is precisely that it is transgressive, which makes it exciting/desireable. So you have both excitement/desire -- and reasonable and necessary horror.
Some might think that this is a paradox, that you cannot have both, you must either not desire this taboo--or not find it horrifying. Turn off your desires, or be a sociopath. What if neither of those is possible? You must balance the desire with the horror.
The way this can work for some people is through a neat trick: make-believe and pretend play. You can take the (very real) taboo and pretend to break it, getting a little tingle (and attendant rush of horror), so long as you are just pretending. I think for people that can pull off that trick, the horror does not cross so easily into shame, because they are not really and truly breaking a social taboo. They are still good people. This is a little like people who like extreme sports - you can jump out of an airplane, and you really will fall, but you won't go splat with a parachute. They are not really suicidal, they do not really want to go splat. But they get a little tingle out of falling and the feeling that they are doing something human bodies are not supposed to do.
But if you are not pretending, the trick doesn't work. You might go splat, and you might be genuinely abusive.
So this:
the other thing is that i really hate myself and these are things i think about myself.
This is the real problem. I think you cannot develop a healthy relationship to this taboo, balancing excitement/desire and horror, if you cannot separate yourself into make-believe. But again, I don't think it's possible to turn off your desires, so my suggestion is to seek therapy for your self-hate and try to move your fantasies to a specific taboo that still gives you a tingle but doesn't attack your core sense of self. Something that is socially inappropriate, but not specifically true for you. Whatever words you are using for yourself that really hurt, stop using those! It is abusive, and you don't deserve to be abused, because you are a good person (I am sure of this, your clear question about your reasonable reaction to a taboo shows me). If you still want to play with humiliation, look around: is there something you can play with that is taboo enough to be exciting and makes you feel a bit horrified to think of, but doesn't make you feel so ashamed? Can you work on creating the make-believe?
For example, I am active in the BDSM community, and I know someone who is fat and pretty proud of that, she is a fat activist and plays with someone who calls her a "cute fat pig" and puts a little bow and pig tail on her. Because she's confident and happy with her body, she can play with this taboo, it's still very transgressive (I feel horrified just writing this) but it doesn't touch her core sense of self. She's dealt with people who called her fat and meant it, and such things mostly just bounce off her. Context matters, of course - if her mother said this it would might hurt a lot, but a sex partner is different. Probably the bow and tail also help, because props elevate make-believe to costume and theater, emphasizing the suspension of disbelief.
But another person I know feels bad about their body, never call them a "fat pig," that is automatically over the line for them. But they feel great about their academic and career achievements, and their fantasies they use "lazy." Still taboo! You should not insult people! But they know they are not lazy, they are accomplished, so the tingle and the spark of horror is there, but it feels balanced.
If you hate yourself in every single possible way, then perhaps you will not be able to create the make-believe and the balance that will allow you to be a socially ethical person and still enjoy the tingle yet. I don't know. But I wonder if there is something else you can use, different words or different scenarios, that will help you still get off without hurting yourself? And I also wonder, do you have a partner who loves you and supports you? What words could your partner use that would be exciting but feel OK? (A thought experiment, no need to ask if you don't want to).
Good luck. I think there is a way to create balance and respect yourself no matter what your desires. A good first step would be to recognize the things in your question that are healthy and good - your concern for your own well-being, your recognition of the social taboo, your desire to improve your sexual life, those are such good things to understand! I respect that and I hope you do too.
posted by Seven Windows at 6:50 AM on March 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
Some terms like "normal" can be loaded.
I am a straight male with a fair amount of sexual experience and I can tell you that you are more "normal" than you feel. Everybody has kinks and sometimes they don't make sense or may not be socially acceptable. As long as you aren't hurting anyone or abusing anyone, it is OK. The mind is a safe place." You should't feel bad about what you are interested in. Sexuality is a huge part of life and happiness. I'd try to mentally re frame it as "this is just a fantasy and it is OK. I am not hurting anyone and I enjoy it." You aren't hurting anyone. As long as you are otherwise happy and don't feel worthless, I wouldn't worry about it (easy for me to say).
Good luck!!!
posted by kbbbo at 7:24 AM on March 21, 2019
I am a straight male with a fair amount of sexual experience and I can tell you that you are more "normal" than you feel. Everybody has kinks and sometimes they don't make sense or may not be socially acceptable. As long as you aren't hurting anyone or abusing anyone, it is OK. The mind is a safe place." You should't feel bad about what you are interested in. Sexuality is a huge part of life and happiness. I'd try to mentally re frame it as "this is just a fantasy and it is OK. I am not hurting anyone and I enjoy it." You aren't hurting anyone. As long as you are otherwise happy and don't feel worthless, I wouldn't worry about it (easy for me to say).
Good luck!!!
posted by kbbbo at 7:24 AM on March 21, 2019
It seems like a lot of people are saying you shouldn't feel bad. Since you do feel bad, I encourage you to make a change. Life is full of unpleasant stuff already. I can't imagine a good reason to dwell on hate and negativity in your sex life.
You control your own mind. If you don't want to think particular things because they bother you, you can take a step back from the direction your mind is going, if you want to.
I went through a similar thing and it's sort of about creating new habits. Are you starting by imagining people who mean little to you except that you can see them being cruel in that way? If yes, consciously begin by imagining others. If no, then steer it in another direction.
Your fantasies may seem dull or muddled for a while, but people have potential to change their minds thoroughly. You can definitely discover other ideas that are exciting and healthy.
posted by heatvision at 7:59 AM on March 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
You control your own mind. If you don't want to think particular things because they bother you, you can take a step back from the direction your mind is going, if you want to.
I went through a similar thing and it's sort of about creating new habits. Are you starting by imagining people who mean little to you except that you can see them being cruel in that way? If yes, consciously begin by imagining others. If no, then steer it in another direction.
Your fantasies may seem dull or muddled for a while, but people have potential to change their minds thoroughly. You can definitely discover other ideas that are exciting and healthy.
posted by heatvision at 7:59 AM on March 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
I recommend reading “Come As You Are.” I remember a chapter that explains why our fantasizes can be incongruous with our desires.
posted by CMcG at 9:33 AM on March 21, 2019
posted by CMcG at 9:33 AM on March 21, 2019
You probably have a lot of stuff to work through. The fact that you feel bad and cry afterwards as opposed to being angry to me indicates that you probably want real life supporters and people who console you. I'm guessing you could use support for the bad feelings that you have and you are working through this.
I'm going to suggest a fantasy for you. First go with your regular sort of set up, but make your abusers a wee bit cartoonish, and someone or someones who a suitable an imaginary hero would have power over. If your hero is Brad Pitt they are Brad Pitt fan girls, if your hero is Wonderwoman they could be a pack of rowdy drunk guys, or your abusers could be your mean girl cousins, in which case invent an imaginary loving Great Grandmother with an enormous fortune she has do decide who she will leave to.
Then play out your fantasy scenario, without bringing the hero into it but setting it up so that they are close by off stage. Just as soon as the abuse fantasy finishes and you get a good orgasm, keep going. Don't masturbate, but imagine that hero stalking into the scene, realising what has been going on and rescuing you. Brad Pitt puts his coat around you and leads you out glaring at the fan girls; he's about to take you out to dinner and get you a Hollywood contract. He knows of a studio looking for an undiscovered voluptuous star and you would be perfect. Wonder Woman leaves a heap of badly bruised louts flat out on the floor moaning after she drop kicks them into the wall. Loving Grandmother gives a great cry of anguish, hugs you and cries out at the cousins, "How could you!" Your mean cousins are out of her will and you are going to inherit the whole fortune, but meanwhile Loving Grandmother has taken you home and is making you tea and scones.
The fantasy that follows the sexual part should be pure validating wish fulfillment comfort, as found in the hurt-comfort genre. It should be tailored to work for you, so not so over the top that you feel stupid and can't get into it. "Oh my dear, if I had known they were being cruel I would have been here far sooner. I am so sorry." Go ahead and cry at that point, but imagine someone holding you as you cry. If you can have fantasy abusers you can have fantasy heroes. If heroes aren't erotic save them for post orgasm.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:47 AM on March 21, 2019 [8 favorites]
I'm going to suggest a fantasy for you. First go with your regular sort of set up, but make your abusers a wee bit cartoonish, and someone or someones who a suitable an imaginary hero would have power over. If your hero is Brad Pitt they are Brad Pitt fan girls, if your hero is Wonderwoman they could be a pack of rowdy drunk guys, or your abusers could be your mean girl cousins, in which case invent an imaginary loving Great Grandmother with an enormous fortune she has do decide who she will leave to.
Then play out your fantasy scenario, without bringing the hero into it but setting it up so that they are close by off stage. Just as soon as the abuse fantasy finishes and you get a good orgasm, keep going. Don't masturbate, but imagine that hero stalking into the scene, realising what has been going on and rescuing you. Brad Pitt puts his coat around you and leads you out glaring at the fan girls; he's about to take you out to dinner and get you a Hollywood contract. He knows of a studio looking for an undiscovered voluptuous star and you would be perfect. Wonder Woman leaves a heap of badly bruised louts flat out on the floor moaning after she drop kicks them into the wall. Loving Grandmother gives a great cry of anguish, hugs you and cries out at the cousins, "How could you!" Your mean cousins are out of her will and you are going to inherit the whole fortune, but meanwhile Loving Grandmother has taken you home and is making you tea and scones.
The fantasy that follows the sexual part should be pure validating wish fulfillment comfort, as found in the hurt-comfort genre. It should be tailored to work for you, so not so over the top that you feel stupid and can't get into it. "Oh my dear, if I had known they were being cruel I would have been here far sooner. I am so sorry." Go ahead and cry at that point, but imagine someone holding you as you cry. If you can have fantasy abusers you can have fantasy heroes. If heroes aren't erotic save them for post orgasm.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:47 AM on March 21, 2019 [8 favorites]
Please MeMail me for a personal account. I worked as a domme, humiliation and degradation were my specialties. You are absolutely not alone. This is a very common kink shared by many many people, and there are ways to improve your experience. (Aftercare would be a good start!) Humiliation is a powerful psychic force. It taps into our deepest fears, desires and motivations. I would encourage you to think of your self-loathing and your kink expression as separate realms. One may inform the other, but it is possible to care for yourself and also "enjoy" being destroyed. Some of my clients came away from scenes joyful and glowing, others wanted to reach a pit of despair. They needed to be left in that dark cold place. To be humiliated is to be seen and accepted in a very particular way. It must be done with care, never abuse. There is great love in knowing enough about someone to be able to name their worst traits, their worst fears... use that knowledge to carry them to the edge of heaven and hell... then scoop them back up with words or actions that say, "I value you, I respect you, I have done this because you asked it of me. This is my gift to you. I know your ugliest, angriest self and I am still here by your side." Maybe in some way, you are saying that to yourself right now.
We can't always change our fantasies, but we can change our relationship to them. I believe you can grow to value yourself!
posted by aw jeez at 8:13 PM on March 21, 2019 [5 favorites]
We can't always change our fantasies, but we can change our relationship to them. I believe you can grow to value yourself!
posted by aw jeez at 8:13 PM on March 21, 2019 [5 favorites]
the other thing is that i really hate myself and these are things i think about myself.
This point is far more important than anything involving sex. Sex fantasies are just fantasies — hating yourself is for real.
Deal with hating yourself and I guarantee this issue will be rendered moot.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:51 PM on March 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
This point is far more important than anything involving sex. Sex fantasies are just fantasies — hating yourself is for real.
Deal with hating yourself and I guarantee this issue will be rendered moot.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:51 PM on March 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by bendy at 1:00 AM on March 21, 2019 [1 favorite]