My girlfriend is super cheap and I don't know how to deal with it
February 16, 2019 12:44 PM Subscribe
My girlfriend is super cheap and I don't know how to deal with it.
I have been with my current girlfriend for a couple of years. We just moved in together and I was excited, but nervous. I was nervous about not having space, and I was nervous about finances. She makes six figures and doesn't have a lot of bills. I make a lot less than she does and I have a TON of health expenses. I like that she can be frugal, as she can help reign me in and help me be better with money. I am financially responsible in that I take care of myself and don't owe anyone any money. I don't want or need her money. I am fine with pulling my own financial weight. I came from a relationship where I paid for most things. I loved my ex and was happy to do it. She said that her ex wouldn't move in with her until she could pay half the bills and that he'd split things down to the sales tax.
I have always hated cheap people. To not have it is one thing, but I have tons of client that have millions of dollars and will nickel and dime you over every dollar. It is just a gross personality trait to me. I like to help people. I know that my girlfriend would judge me when I give money to a homeless person. I would rather be a good human and do some good than to worry about every single dollar. I feel like I have to hide certain parts of me like that so as not to be judged.
We previously had a conversation about this. I didn't like the feeling of "keeping score." If I bought her a coffee, or vice versa, I don't care about the 3 dollars. It makes me anxious to not just be in a relationship. I'm not expecting her to pay for anything of mine. I just bought her a gift for her for Valentine's Day because I love her and wanted to do something nice. I don't want to wait for a gift and make sure that it is of equal value. The "score keeping" makes me feel like we are in a business relationship. Perhaps I am a more generous person. I will see that Starbucks has a coffee flavor that she would like and buy her a coffee as a surprise. She would never do that.
I am fine with her going to the library etc, but I like to buy books. I like to buy stuff for my house that I enjoy. I don't want to buy a couch on Craigslist to save a few bucks. We make over 150k between the two of us. We can afford it. She is obsessed with budgeting and goes on reddit and listens to podcasts about budgeting. She can't buy certain things until later months when her budget allows for it. I love the fact that she is responsible, but the rest of this bothers me. I know that little things ad up, but I would rather not go to the movies at all than not be able to buy popcorn. I want to be able to buy a movie on demand for $5 and not feel like it is a big deal. Even when Netflix price jumped a few dollars, I thought it wasn't a big deal as they produce a lot of content. She thought it was ridiculous. Perhaps I am used to being in business and she works in healthcare
We need to buy a new bed and some other things. She wants to wait a few months since it isn't in her budget. I want to just get the apartment fixed up so that it is done and I can relax. I offered to pay and she could give me money back when her "budget" allowed for it. I will pay for the stuff myself, but I feel that I am going to start resenting her for this. I don't like the way that things feel transactional and quid pro quo. If roles were reversed, I would help her out and buy her meals occasionally etc. I would do it out of love and because I was in a position to help her when she needed it. I am not even expecting that. It just makes me feel unloved that she is sometimes selfish and always cheap.
I just want to point out that I do love her (or else I wouldn't have moved in with her), but I'm worried that this is going to be an issue and will ultimately push us apart. Again, it is not the money. It is the way that it makes me feel
Thank you in advance
I have been with my current girlfriend for a couple of years. We just moved in together and I was excited, but nervous. I was nervous about not having space, and I was nervous about finances. She makes six figures and doesn't have a lot of bills. I make a lot less than she does and I have a TON of health expenses. I like that she can be frugal, as she can help reign me in and help me be better with money. I am financially responsible in that I take care of myself and don't owe anyone any money. I don't want or need her money. I am fine with pulling my own financial weight. I came from a relationship where I paid for most things. I loved my ex and was happy to do it. She said that her ex wouldn't move in with her until she could pay half the bills and that he'd split things down to the sales tax.
I have always hated cheap people. To not have it is one thing, but I have tons of client that have millions of dollars and will nickel and dime you over every dollar. It is just a gross personality trait to me. I like to help people. I know that my girlfriend would judge me when I give money to a homeless person. I would rather be a good human and do some good than to worry about every single dollar. I feel like I have to hide certain parts of me like that so as not to be judged.
We previously had a conversation about this. I didn't like the feeling of "keeping score." If I bought her a coffee, or vice versa, I don't care about the 3 dollars. It makes me anxious to not just be in a relationship. I'm not expecting her to pay for anything of mine. I just bought her a gift for her for Valentine's Day because I love her and wanted to do something nice. I don't want to wait for a gift and make sure that it is of equal value. The "score keeping" makes me feel like we are in a business relationship. Perhaps I am a more generous person. I will see that Starbucks has a coffee flavor that she would like and buy her a coffee as a surprise. She would never do that.
I am fine with her going to the library etc, but I like to buy books. I like to buy stuff for my house that I enjoy. I don't want to buy a couch on Craigslist to save a few bucks. We make over 150k between the two of us. We can afford it. She is obsessed with budgeting and goes on reddit and listens to podcasts about budgeting. She can't buy certain things until later months when her budget allows for it. I love the fact that she is responsible, but the rest of this bothers me. I know that little things ad up, but I would rather not go to the movies at all than not be able to buy popcorn. I want to be able to buy a movie on demand for $5 and not feel like it is a big deal. Even when Netflix price jumped a few dollars, I thought it wasn't a big deal as they produce a lot of content. She thought it was ridiculous. Perhaps I am used to being in business and she works in healthcare
We need to buy a new bed and some other things. She wants to wait a few months since it isn't in her budget. I want to just get the apartment fixed up so that it is done and I can relax. I offered to pay and she could give me money back when her "budget" allowed for it. I will pay for the stuff myself, but I feel that I am going to start resenting her for this. I don't like the way that things feel transactional and quid pro quo. If roles were reversed, I would help her out and buy her meals occasionally etc. I would do it out of love and because I was in a position to help her when she needed it. I am not even expecting that. It just makes me feel unloved that she is sometimes selfish and always cheap.
I just want to point out that I do love her (or else I wouldn't have moved in with her), but I'm worried that this is going to be an issue and will ultimately push us apart. Again, it is not the money. It is the way that it makes me feel
Thank you in advance
I feel like there's a mix of things here. A few things stood out to me:
kbbbo: " I didn't like the feeling of "keeping score." If I bought her a coffee, or vice versa, I don't care about the 3 dollars."
I think yes absolutely you shouldn't be keeping track of who buys coffee or other small expenses. As long as you roughly alternate, all that should even out anyway. So: score one for OP.
kbbbo: "I don't want to buy a couch on Craigslist to save a few bucks. We make over 150k between the two of us. We can afford it."
New couches are genuinely expensive. Even making $150k as a couple (and really until you're married you shouldn't be counting her own, much more significant income as your own), a new couch can easily run $3k or more and hence after taxes could be as much as ~5% of your total annual income. Buying a used couch on Craigslist is eminently sensible. I admit I say this as someone with a similar household income who has never bought a new couch. So: score one for OP's girlfriend.
So if I were you, I would think you should 'deal with it' by working out a compromise: you give way on some things (especially the big ticket things), and she gives way on some things (especially the small stuff).
posted by crazy with stars at 1:01 PM on February 16, 2019 [13 favorites]
kbbbo: " I didn't like the feeling of "keeping score." If I bought her a coffee, or vice versa, I don't care about the 3 dollars."
I think yes absolutely you shouldn't be keeping track of who buys coffee or other small expenses. As long as you roughly alternate, all that should even out anyway. So: score one for OP.
kbbbo: "I don't want to buy a couch on Craigslist to save a few bucks. We make over 150k between the two of us. We can afford it."
New couches are genuinely expensive. Even making $150k as a couple (and really until you're married you shouldn't be counting her own, much more significant income as your own), a new couch can easily run $3k or more and hence after taxes could be as much as ~5% of your total annual income. Buying a used couch on Craigslist is eminently sensible. I admit I say this as someone with a similar household income who has never bought a new couch. So: score one for OP's girlfriend.
So if I were you, I would think you should 'deal with it' by working out a compromise: you give way on some things (especially the big ticket things), and she gives way on some things (especially the small stuff).
posted by crazy with stars at 1:01 PM on February 16, 2019 [13 favorites]
Nothing you’ve said reads as “cheap” to me. Being flippant with money is not the same as being generous. You’re getting angry at her for acting “quid pro quo” but you’re also resenting her for not being as generous as you feel. I admire her discipline with her budget. Did she perhaps get in a situation where financial discipline was an issue in the past, or grow up in a situation like that?
Would you both be open to creating a joint budget? It’s a win for her because she gets to track these expenses and make sure they stay within bounds that you both can hopefully agree to, and it’s a win for you because you can see exactly how much latitude there is for joint purchases like popcorn or a bed at any one time, so it will feel less arbitrary and more collaborative. Then you can contribute to the joint budget in whatever way makes sense.
If you can’t agree on what discretionary spending belongs in the joint budget, or if you can’t agree on how to fund it, or if this still feels like scorekeeping to you, I think your financial mindsets might be irreconcilably different.
posted by supercres at 1:01 PM on February 16, 2019 [15 favorites]
Would you both be open to creating a joint budget? It’s a win for her because she gets to track these expenses and make sure they stay within bounds that you both can hopefully agree to, and it’s a win for you because you can see exactly how much latitude there is for joint purchases like popcorn or a bed at any one time, so it will feel less arbitrary and more collaborative. Then you can contribute to the joint budget in whatever way makes sense.
If you can’t agree on what discretionary spending belongs in the joint budget, or if you can’t agree on how to fund it, or if this still feels like scorekeeping to you, I think your financial mindsets might be irreconcilably different.
posted by supercres at 1:01 PM on February 16, 2019 [15 favorites]
This is a lot to unpack. So much so that I think couple's therapy is warranted. Because you need to be able to have conversations about this. Her way is not the right or wrong no matter how much money she has. And neither is yours. I think being conscientious about how you spend your money is very important. She may be on one end of the curve about this and you may be on the other. I don't find that all surprising given how much opposites tend to attract.
Are you guys at the point in your relationship where it makes sense to talk about shared financial goals? If you are, it might make sense to involve a financial planning expert just to talk you through combined budgeting and goal setting.
I wish I could be as disciplined as your partner in sticking to my budget. But I'm not. And I'm not in part because my partner is actively pulling in the opposite direction much as you are. But he seems to have more pull than you probably in part because we are married and our finances are fully intermingled. We have had many conversations/arguments/fights/reconciliations about money over our 24-years-long relationship together. It can be so very hard when your money feelings don't match but here's some of the more productive ways we have dealt with this in recent years:
- Saw a financial advisor. This was through a company that ultimately wants to manage your money for a fee but we paid a very small amount to have monthly meetings for about six months where we worked through budgeting, retirement, etc.. It was great to have a good third party to talk us through what was real about money and what was not. We did move money into their funds but I'm just now finally getting out of that because I don't want to pay their management fees.
- Talked about what we learned about money growing up. This is so important because money hits right to the heart of feelings of security, fears about the future or fears of missing out, etc.. The lessons you learned from your mom and dad growing up both good and bad about money are likely the root of your money attitudes now.
- Talked about our shared financial goals. And I'd like to say that we have resolved this but we haven't. However, we can now actually have money conversations without having a big fight. It used to be I'd just say, "Hey, I'd like to go over the budget..." and my husband would start seething. It was...not fun! And sometimes I'd be wanting to go over the budget because something had triggered my panic, so I was panic-budgeting. Also, not fun!! Once we started having shared goals, though, it became much clearer. And we use a shared budgeting tool to talk about our goals and it helps a lot.
But, one thing I want to call out for you to think about is...it does no one any good to buy someone a surprise cup of coffee and then resent them while you are doing it. I think you should examine that a bit and think through where that comes from. There's a little bit of that that clearly comes from the validation or lack of validation you are getting from your partner but it's also incredibly self-defeating and just not a good place to operate from. Maybe you are an "acts of service" person and she is not? (See also: Love Languages. YMMV.)
posted by amanda at 1:05 PM on February 16, 2019 [35 favorites]
Are you guys at the point in your relationship where it makes sense to talk about shared financial goals? If you are, it might make sense to involve a financial planning expert just to talk you through combined budgeting and goal setting.
I wish I could be as disciplined as your partner in sticking to my budget. But I'm not. And I'm not in part because my partner is actively pulling in the opposite direction much as you are. But he seems to have more pull than you probably in part because we are married and our finances are fully intermingled. We have had many conversations/arguments/fights/reconciliations about money over our 24-years-long relationship together. It can be so very hard when your money feelings don't match but here's some of the more productive ways we have dealt with this in recent years:
- Saw a financial advisor. This was through a company that ultimately wants to manage your money for a fee but we paid a very small amount to have monthly meetings for about six months where we worked through budgeting, retirement, etc.. It was great to have a good third party to talk us through what was real about money and what was not. We did move money into their funds but I'm just now finally getting out of that because I don't want to pay their management fees.
- Talked about what we learned about money growing up. This is so important because money hits right to the heart of feelings of security, fears about the future or fears of missing out, etc.. The lessons you learned from your mom and dad growing up both good and bad about money are likely the root of your money attitudes now.
- Talked about our shared financial goals. And I'd like to say that we have resolved this but we haven't. However, we can now actually have money conversations without having a big fight. It used to be I'd just say, "Hey, I'd like to go over the budget..." and my husband would start seething. It was...not fun! And sometimes I'd be wanting to go over the budget because something had triggered my panic, so I was panic-budgeting. Also, not fun!! Once we started having shared goals, though, it became much clearer. And we use a shared budgeting tool to talk about our goals and it helps a lot.
But, one thing I want to call out for you to think about is...it does no one any good to buy someone a surprise cup of coffee and then resent them while you are doing it. I think you should examine that a bit and think through where that comes from. There's a little bit of that that clearly comes from the validation or lack of validation you are getting from your partner but it's also incredibly self-defeating and just not a good place to operate from. Maybe you are an "acts of service" person and she is not? (See also: Love Languages. YMMV.)
posted by amanda at 1:05 PM on February 16, 2019 [35 favorites]
Hey, I might be a lot like your girlfriend. I would do all of this except I wouldn't look down on you for giving money to a homeless person (though there were times in the past when I might have thought "eh, I wish he would give that money to a reputable charity instead" - I have come around on this, though!). Also I don't really understand the "keeping score" paragraph - is there any reason you need to wait to make sure your gift to her is of equal value to her gift to you? Does she get angry if your gifts to each other are of unequal value?
I will say up front I don't understand much about how much you've already talked with your girlfriend about money and what, specifically, you've talked about. Do you understand *why* your girlfriend acts this way about money, and specifically what goals (or fears/non-goals) she has in mind?
Like, I am frugal because I don't want to have to keep trading my labor for money forever. I want to be able to do the work I want to do, not the work that pays the best. I'm also frugal because to me it's fun! I like optimizing my budget, and I get a rush out of postponing buying things. One time I didn't buy clothes for a whole year, partly to save money but mostly as a game for myself. Our household income is even more than you guys and we *totally* buy used couches on craigslist.
I don't think you really understand her mindset here - when you tell your girlfriend that you can pay for the bed now and she can pay you back later, that's basically exactly the same as telling her to just put it on a credit card and not worry about it. That's not how a budget works. You might have more luck saying something like, "OK, I am willing to cut back on X, Y, and Z in order to get a new bed sooner - would that work for you?"
Your girlfriend could actually be a dick about money, but I can't tell from the examples you've given. There is a lot of toxicity in the reddit personal finance/etc. zone. But to me, your girlfriend sounds like she chooses to live below her means, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that (though it might be incompatible with what you want).
posted by mskyle at 1:07 PM on February 16, 2019 [12 favorites]
I will say up front I don't understand much about how much you've already talked with your girlfriend about money and what, specifically, you've talked about. Do you understand *why* your girlfriend acts this way about money, and specifically what goals (or fears/non-goals) she has in mind?
Like, I am frugal because I don't want to have to keep trading my labor for money forever. I want to be able to do the work I want to do, not the work that pays the best. I'm also frugal because to me it's fun! I like optimizing my budget, and I get a rush out of postponing buying things. One time I didn't buy clothes for a whole year, partly to save money but mostly as a game for myself. Our household income is even more than you guys and we *totally* buy used couches on craigslist.
I don't think you really understand her mindset here - when you tell your girlfriend that you can pay for the bed now and she can pay you back later, that's basically exactly the same as telling her to just put it on a credit card and not worry about it. That's not how a budget works. You might have more luck saying something like, "OK, I am willing to cut back on X, Y, and Z in order to get a new bed sooner - would that work for you?"
Your girlfriend could actually be a dick about money, but I can't tell from the examples you've given. There is a lot of toxicity in the reddit personal finance/etc. zone. But to me, your girlfriend sounds like she chooses to live below her means, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that (though it might be incompatible with what you want).
posted by mskyle at 1:07 PM on February 16, 2019 [12 favorites]
Maybe try having a conversation about expenses relative to cash flow, to try to convey your perspective? I'm like your girlfriend by nature, and I'm still probably more penny-pinching than most people, but what really broke my ambition for perfect parsimony was medical expenses. It's hard to muster enthusiasm for buying the day-old bakery goods, and you're also making much less significant progress doing so in accounting terms, if you just dropped several hundred dollars on one month's medications and you've got three copays for various appointments coming up in the next few weeks.
posted by XMLicious at 1:08 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 1:08 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
I would look at the underpinnings of her relationship to money--what emotions does money or a lack thereof elicit for her? What kind of relationship to money did she and her family have growing up? That seems like a good starting point for building empathy.
From there, I'd talk about the areas where spending money matters to each of you, and why (for instance, I've learned that I will spend money to have a nice couch, but I don't care about clothes. The underlying desire is to have a cozy, comfortable home environment for me).
posted by sugarbomb at 1:15 PM on February 16, 2019 [9 favorites]
From there, I'd talk about the areas where spending money matters to each of you, and why (for instance, I've learned that I will spend money to have a nice couch, but I don't care about clothes. The underlying desire is to have a cozy, comfortable home environment for me).
posted by sugarbomb at 1:15 PM on February 16, 2019 [9 favorites]
I just want to point out that money is at the top of the list for why marriages fail. You seem to be taking this seriously but I urge you to make it a top priority. Read books together, do couples therapy, do whatever it takes because this is a topic that just gets harder with time.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:16 PM on February 16, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:16 PM on February 16, 2019 [10 favorites]
You have to accept that she's a person with unique views and ideas. In this case, about money and how to judge the value of the things you want and need. If you want stuff enough to pay for it yourself, you simply have to accept that's your role in the relationship: to be the more extravagant spender. But if you're going to keep score on your expenses, keeping score sounding like a one sided activity on your part, it doesn't bode well.
If you can't get around your hangup about her frugal personality trait, which as you describe doesn't sound unreasonable or out of line to me, you should probably break things off sooner than later.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:19 PM on February 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
If you can't get around your hangup about her frugal personality trait, which as you describe doesn't sound unreasonable or out of line to me, you should probably break things off sooner than later.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:19 PM on February 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
Talk to her. Use "I" statements. Explain how the situation makes you feel. Maybe explore how your attitudes toward money came to be. I find that attitudes about money among my friends is strongly influenced by whether we grew up with money or not. Weirdly I find that those of us who grew up poorer tend to spend more freely because we know it could all be gone tomorrow. Also, if you're combining your finances in some way you need to have an explicit conversation about how that's going to work. If you live together you should have an agreed upon joint budget for things you share at the very least.
Unsolicited psychoanalysis, it sounds to me like you place a lot of emphasis on immediate gratification and conspicuous consumption. This is not a judgement. I am the same way. Maybe think about and talk out why you feel that way (if I'm not way off). For instance, I feel that way because I never got to have new things or flashy items when I was a kid. Now that I'm an adult it feels good to make up for that. I too would prefer to have a new item over a used item, even if the used item is indistinguishable from the new one. It's not logical and you gotta face that.
posted by runcibleshaw at 1:22 PM on February 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
Unsolicited psychoanalysis, it sounds to me like you place a lot of emphasis on immediate gratification and conspicuous consumption. This is not a judgement. I am the same way. Maybe think about and talk out why you feel that way (if I'm not way off). For instance, I feel that way because I never got to have new things or flashy items when I was a kid. Now that I'm an adult it feels good to make up for that. I too would prefer to have a new item over a used item, even if the used item is indistinguishable from the new one. It's not logical and you gotta face that.
posted by runcibleshaw at 1:22 PM on February 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
You're getting some great advice here, especially about seeing a financial planner and working out shared financial goals.
As for the day-to-day budgeting, it's nice to have a certain sum of money in the budget that's individually hers and individually yours--your present buying, the five dollar movie rentals, the popcorn. This "me money" is for pleasurable whatevers. If she wants to put hers in an IRA, great. If you've got the IRA funded as part of your financial future, then use the mad money for small pleasures that you get to enjoy without judgment or accountability.
Frugality is a virtue; cheapness isn't. I can't tell which applies to your partner. Is she generous in spirit, e.g. doing an errand or a chore for you without asking so you can sleep in or meet a deadline? One of my tests for people's characters: Are they good tippers? Cheap people aren't because they're cheap in empathy.
posted by Elsie at 1:26 PM on February 16, 2019 [9 favorites]
As for the day-to-day budgeting, it's nice to have a certain sum of money in the budget that's individually hers and individually yours--your present buying, the five dollar movie rentals, the popcorn. This "me money" is for pleasurable whatevers. If she wants to put hers in an IRA, great. If you've got the IRA funded as part of your financial future, then use the mad money for small pleasures that you get to enjoy without judgment or accountability.
Frugality is a virtue; cheapness isn't. I can't tell which applies to your partner. Is she generous in spirit, e.g. doing an errand or a chore for you without asking so you can sleep in or meet a deadline? One of my tests for people's characters: Are they good tippers? Cheap people aren't because they're cheap in empathy.
posted by Elsie at 1:26 PM on February 16, 2019 [9 favorites]
My significant other does all our budgeting and finds great joy in it (which I appreciate because I hate that stuff and the best part of a relationship is getting the other person to do the stuff you hate and they don't mind). What's become clear to me over the years is that money management is his hobby. That's why he listens to podcasts and subs to various reddits and micromanages everything. Some people gain deep joy out of min/maxing, and money happens to lend itself to that hobby.
I say this because I think you'd benefit from removing the moral goodness element from money management. You're interpreting both your and her behavior through this lens of "how you deal with money reveals a core personality trait" that I don't think needs to exist. If you frame this disagreement in moral terms -- you are generous and she is stingy, or that you are undisciplined and she is above petty temptations -- you shut down any possible discussion before it begins.
I can't tell you exactly how to resolve this dispute, except that you two need to sit down and talk with each other about it. You have a lot of assumptions in your question ("I know she'd just me if...") that may or may not hold up in reality. But you two will definitely not be able to have those discussions productively if you're secretly thinking she's selfish and also secretly worried that she's judging you as well.
posted by lilac girl at 1:27 PM on February 16, 2019 [18 favorites]
I say this because I think you'd benefit from removing the moral goodness element from money management. You're interpreting both your and her behavior through this lens of "how you deal with money reveals a core personality trait" that I don't think needs to exist. If you frame this disagreement in moral terms -- you are generous and she is stingy, or that you are undisciplined and she is above petty temptations -- you shut down any possible discussion before it begins.
I can't tell you exactly how to resolve this dispute, except that you two need to sit down and talk with each other about it. You have a lot of assumptions in your question ("I know she'd just me if...") that may or may not hold up in reality. But you two will definitely not be able to have those discussions productively if you're secretly thinking she's selfish and also secretly worried that she's judging you as well.
posted by lilac girl at 1:27 PM on February 16, 2019 [18 favorites]
I can think of a number of practical ways to resolve this. One would be to have an agreed-on charity budget for the year. Another would be to have an agreed-on percentage of income for savings and for bills and shared expenses, and then after that the remainder of your income is yours to spend however you like.
So my question is - is your girlfriend questioning your actual spending, like she doesn't believe you should ever buy a book ever? Or is she questioning that you don't account for your spending? Because the first is kind of unreasonable unless you are clawing your way out of debt. But the second is a core ability that helps couples achieve their joint and individual goals.
How this plays out on the ground - my husband hates tracking spending, and also is much more comfortable spending closer to the line in our account than I am. I am more like your girlfriend. One way we have handled this is to save first -- so an agreed-on percentage of our income has gone into savings from the start of our marriage. And another has been to keep essential expenses lower - by buying second-hand, used cars, keeping our mortgage low and not having a big house, etc. But then after that, my husband can spend on the things he finds valuable and important, or even take on something like (in the past) a motorcycle + insurance.
I would find one of the books on personal finance that are out there (I like Gail Vaz-Oxlade's) and work through it chapter by chapter together respectfully.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:35 PM on February 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
So my question is - is your girlfriend questioning your actual spending, like she doesn't believe you should ever buy a book ever? Or is she questioning that you don't account for your spending? Because the first is kind of unreasonable unless you are clawing your way out of debt. But the second is a core ability that helps couples achieve their joint and individual goals.
How this plays out on the ground - my husband hates tracking spending, and also is much more comfortable spending closer to the line in our account than I am. I am more like your girlfriend. One way we have handled this is to save first -- so an agreed-on percentage of our income has gone into savings from the start of our marriage. And another has been to keep essential expenses lower - by buying second-hand, used cars, keeping our mortgage low and not having a big house, etc. But then after that, my husband can spend on the things he finds valuable and important, or even take on something like (in the past) a motorcycle + insurance.
I would find one of the books on personal finance that are out there (I like Gail Vaz-Oxlade's) and work through it chapter by chapter together respectfully.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:35 PM on February 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
if you go from each having your own place to living together, you should both end up with more disposable income even while maintaining totally separate accounts. roommates save money. but when you say that "we" can jointly afford to buy something expensive she would never have wanted on her own, it begins to sound like living together is a financial drain for her, but not you.
financial extravagance is terrific, both the charitable kind and the selfish kind. as long as you're paying all your own expenses, wasting money is just as legitimate a hobby as reading boring frugality blogs, and neither of you should have a problem with the other's preference. but it has to be your own money that you waste on indulgences and beautiful things, not hers. not if she doesn't want those things. you should be able to compromise a little on the furniture budget, but only up to the point where her share of e.g. the couch expense is 100 percent of what she would have spent buying one on her own, not more than that, even if you think she could afford more.
you have a good argument if you can say to her, We should both put in 100 percent of what we could afford on our own, instead of 50 percent, because that way we maintain our budgets but have something twice as nice as we'd have alone. but you have a bad argument if you say to her, You should put in 5 times as much as you would on your own, because I think you can.
Perhaps I am a more generous person. I will see that Starbucks has a coffee flavor that she would like and buy her a coffee as a surprise. She would never do that.
I sympathize but you have to face and accept the fact that what you are asking for here is score-keeping and quid pro quo. the very things you disavow so strongly. in order to make these little gestures for you, if it's important to you, she will have to start consciously keeping a little memory account. that's the only way to build a new habitual reflex you don't have.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:43 PM on February 16, 2019 [21 favorites]
financial extravagance is terrific, both the charitable kind and the selfish kind. as long as you're paying all your own expenses, wasting money is just as legitimate a hobby as reading boring frugality blogs, and neither of you should have a problem with the other's preference. but it has to be your own money that you waste on indulgences and beautiful things, not hers. not if she doesn't want those things. you should be able to compromise a little on the furniture budget, but only up to the point where her share of e.g. the couch expense is 100 percent of what she would have spent buying one on her own, not more than that, even if you think she could afford more.
you have a good argument if you can say to her, We should both put in 100 percent of what we could afford on our own, instead of 50 percent, because that way we maintain our budgets but have something twice as nice as we'd have alone. but you have a bad argument if you say to her, You should put in 5 times as much as you would on your own, because I think you can.
Perhaps I am a more generous person. I will see that Starbucks has a coffee flavor that she would like and buy her a coffee as a surprise. She would never do that.
I sympathize but you have to face and accept the fact that what you are asking for here is score-keeping and quid pro quo. the very things you disavow so strongly. in order to make these little gestures for you, if it's important to you, she will have to start consciously keeping a little memory account. that's the only way to build a new habitual reflex you don't have.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:43 PM on February 16, 2019 [21 favorites]
Some good comments upthread. I'll add that I would suggest a couples counselor if this is an ongoing issue - money is a loaded subject, and can be difficult discussing even if you're both on the same page financially.
FWIW I'm very much the type who likes budgeting and analyzing expenses, but I wouldnt consider myself cheap (if anything, I splurge more often than my wife), I just like knowing where the money's going and ensuring I at least have positive cash flow. Makes it less stressful when I do have a big expense pop up.
posted by photo guy at 1:45 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
FWIW I'm very much the type who likes budgeting and analyzing expenses, but I wouldnt consider myself cheap (if anything, I splurge more often than my wife), I just like knowing where the money's going and ensuring I at least have positive cash flow. Makes it less stressful when I do have a big expense pop up.
posted by photo guy at 1:45 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
I see three separate issues here. One is that you have different ideas about when it’s good to spend/save, another is a lack of sharing inside the relationship (i.e. keeping tabs on who bought a cup of coffee), and a third is about sharing more generally.
The first describes a money-worldview (“it’s good to be frugal”) and the second describes a relationship-worldview (“we maintain financial separateness AND gifts must be quid pro quo.”). I’m also not sure what worldview is being expressed when she criticizes you for giving to homeless people — perhaps “it’s virtuous to keep your own money and bad to share it.” So you have a lifestyle difference, but also a different way of viewing relationships, and possibly some different ethics/politics.
Speaking as someone more like you, I could live with, and maybe learn to like, the frugal part, but I’d have a lot of problems with a partner who didn’t want to share inside the relationship, and even more problems with someone who thought giving to homeless people was a problem.
I would want to talk with her about her background regarding money and what her goals are. Does she want to retire young? Did her parents barely survive a financial hardship? Is she a libertarian? Etc. There is also an interesting book called The Art of Money that asks people to write out their “money histories” — this might be a cool thing you guys could do together that might illuminate the issue a bit.
posted by sockkitude at 1:46 PM on February 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
The first describes a money-worldview (“it’s good to be frugal”) and the second describes a relationship-worldview (“we maintain financial separateness AND gifts must be quid pro quo.”). I’m also not sure what worldview is being expressed when she criticizes you for giving to homeless people — perhaps “it’s virtuous to keep your own money and bad to share it.” So you have a lifestyle difference, but also a different way of viewing relationships, and possibly some different ethics/politics.
Speaking as someone more like you, I could live with, and maybe learn to like, the frugal part, but I’d have a lot of problems with a partner who didn’t want to share inside the relationship, and even more problems with someone who thought giving to homeless people was a problem.
I would want to talk with her about her background regarding money and what her goals are. Does she want to retire young? Did her parents barely survive a financial hardship? Is she a libertarian? Etc. There is also an interesting book called The Art of Money that asks people to write out their “money histories” — this might be a cool thing you guys could do together that might illuminate the issue a bit.
posted by sockkitude at 1:46 PM on February 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
Speaking from experience with a similar relationship dynamic, some things to consider. First, she's not going to change. Second, she's going to resent you for being a spendthrift just as you resent her for being cheap. Third, if you marry her and it all becomes "our money", you're going to fight all the time about spending decisions unless you can work out a compromise budget that lets you both live a lifestyle you're happy with (after all, it is possible to stick to a strict budget that includes money for buying books, coffee, and can adapt to a Netflix price increase).
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 1:47 PM on February 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 1:47 PM on February 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
I really really would encourage counseling before y'all do anything high-stakes like buy property together or procreate. I am like you, I do not have the inherent sense that some people do that your girlfriend's personality is the right/accurate/better one, I feel strongly about NOT getting bedbugs among other good reasons not to buy a Craigslist couch, and this mismatch will absolutely ruin a relationship unless you both commit to communicating the hell out of it. Nobody has to change their attitude toward money necessarily, but you have to make up for the difference by talking talking talking about it constantly.
You've already moved in together, which is something you shouldn't have done without doing some big work around this first, but you may need to spend the duration of the lease considering what a relationship where you live apart might look like, if that turns out to be one of the necessary compromises that allows the relationship to be otherwise functional.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:52 PM on February 16, 2019 [6 favorites]
You've already moved in together, which is something you shouldn't have done without doing some big work around this first, but you may need to spend the duration of the lease considering what a relationship where you live apart might look like, if that turns out to be one of the necessary compromises that allows the relationship to be otherwise functional.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:52 PM on February 16, 2019 [6 favorites]
it is not the money. It is the way that it makes me feel
You feel that your girlfriend's personality type is "gross" if I am reading this correctly?
I am also super cheap but it was a few things
- more of a save now, play later mindset which I am further into the "play" part of. Its nice here, but I do not at all begrudge earlier me for saving like a nut
- I grew up thinking we were legit poor which is embarrassing to me but was because my mother had some sort of irrational fears about money that I inherited
- I just don't care about stuff like new clothes or new furniture
Which is fine. I date a guy who has a lot less money than me. The thing that has been super interesting, for me, is how he is so generous. He'd pay for dinner without even thinking about it. I was always miserly about stuff, not buying drinks or whatever. I've gotten less like that, realizing that it's more a personality thing with me than anything that relates to my actual bank account. It's been helpful.
Now, we both help each other get a little bit more towards the middle. He could probably reign in his spending more. I could loosen up a little. We're supportive and both try to talk a lot using "I" language about money plans we had. What I am not hearing from you is some sort of "How we're going to work on this given that I am like me and she is like she is" because she may budge a little, but I can tell you right now you're not going to make her "See reason" and be like "Oh yeah I just checked my bank account and there is enough money there for a couch" She has a budget. That's actually fairly cool. I'm not sure what the result was when you offered to pay for the stuff up front and have her pay you back later, that seemed like a good solution except that you seem mad about it. So yeah I think as you point out, some of this is about your feelings. Spend less time figuring out why she is like she is and more why you think her way of living is "gross" and the other pretty negative words you use to describe her. You may be able to work something out that works for both of you, but you'll have to get over some of those hurdles first.
posted by jessamyn at 1:56 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
You feel that your girlfriend's personality type is "gross" if I am reading this correctly?
I am also super cheap but it was a few things
- more of a save now, play later mindset which I am further into the "play" part of. Its nice here, but I do not at all begrudge earlier me for saving like a nut
- I grew up thinking we were legit poor which is embarrassing to me but was because my mother had some sort of irrational fears about money that I inherited
- I just don't care about stuff like new clothes or new furniture
Which is fine. I date a guy who has a lot less money than me. The thing that has been super interesting, for me, is how he is so generous. He'd pay for dinner without even thinking about it. I was always miserly about stuff, not buying drinks or whatever. I've gotten less like that, realizing that it's more a personality thing with me than anything that relates to my actual bank account. It's been helpful.
Now, we both help each other get a little bit more towards the middle. He could probably reign in his spending more. I could loosen up a little. We're supportive and both try to talk a lot using "I" language about money plans we had. What I am not hearing from you is some sort of "How we're going to work on this given that I am like me and she is like she is" because she may budge a little, but I can tell you right now you're not going to make her "See reason" and be like "Oh yeah I just checked my bank account and there is enough money there for a couch" She has a budget. That's actually fairly cool. I'm not sure what the result was when you offered to pay for the stuff up front and have her pay you back later, that seemed like a good solution except that you seem mad about it. So yeah I think as you point out, some of this is about your feelings. Spend less time figuring out why she is like she is and more why you think her way of living is "gross" and the other pretty negative words you use to describe her. You may be able to work something out that works for both of you, but you'll have to get over some of those hurdles first.
posted by jessamyn at 1:56 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
Hey, it feels like there's some information missing from your question.
For example, you say that you know she'd judge you for giving money to someone, or that she's keeping score, but it's not clear if those are actual things that have happened or if it's just that you feel certain that she'd do them.
You also mention that you've had a talk together about this. What did she say?
posted by trig at 2:35 PM on February 16, 2019 [16 favorites]
For example, you say that you know she'd judge you for giving money to someone, or that she's keeping score, but it's not clear if those are actual things that have happened or if it's just that you feel certain that she'd do them.
You also mention that you've had a talk together about this. What did she say?
posted by trig at 2:35 PM on February 16, 2019 [16 favorites]
A quick read of this question, it seems like you are wanting her to buy things (and some pretty large, multi-thousand dollar things like a couch) on credit—to literally live beyond her current “I have the money in my hand” means—simply because she currently has a good-paying job.
I imagine her thinking is more akin to
Also, this part struck me
as money that you get to have control over spending, which is.... no.
At this moment, she is your girlfriend; other than sharing an apartment and perhaps a lease, you two are not bound legally in any way.
Not to be crude, but if you get hit by the proverbial bus, or meet someone new and run off, your girlfriend is stuck being responsible for everything debt-wise.
Finally, if she is concerned enough about finances to be downloading and listening to financial podcasts,
posted by blueberry at 2:42 PM on February 16, 2019 [48 favorites]
I imagine her thinking is more akin to
- she does not currently have the money in hand to buy this thing, and
- jobs can easily be lost, outsourced, down-sized, whatever. Just because someone has a nice-paying job today does not mean that they will have a nice-paying job next week. Every great job is only a regretful-voicemail-from-your-boss away from being totally gone.
Also, this part struck me
We make over 150k between the two of us. We can afford it.Best case, I imagine you are saying it in a way like
“She needn’t worry about every nickel,but that “We“ could also easily come across as you treating the money that she makes
we are doing fine money-wise...”
as money that you get to have control over spending, which is.... no.
At this moment, she is your girlfriend; other than sharing an apartment and perhaps a lease, you two are not bound legally in any way.
Not to be crude, but if you get hit by the proverbial bus, or meet someone new and run off, your girlfriend is stuck being responsible for everything debt-wise.
Finally, if she is concerned enough about finances to be downloading and listening to financial podcasts,
This is a real, seriousHer valid concerns may stem from her history growing up, the knowledge that her parents are getting older and may need help, the incredible cost of raising a child if she’s thinking about that, or even just—I mean, look around at the current political and financial environment where garbage and lies announced by leaders on Twitter are affecting the stock market—things are not great and your circumstances could change by the time you wake up tomorrow.
non-head-patting
concern for her.
posted by blueberry at 2:42 PM on February 16, 2019 [48 favorites]
You mentioned that she works in healthcare. I imagine that her job can be emotionally draining, which could contribute to her sense that she needs to make every hard-earned penny count.
posted by delight at 2:49 PM on February 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by delight at 2:49 PM on February 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
Buying a used couch on Craigslist is eminently sensible.
not to derail, but from experience i can assert that bedbug treatments start in the $1K range and only go up from there so to me a CL couch is potentially a false economy.
posted by halation at 2:50 PM on February 16, 2019 [29 favorites]
not to derail, but from experience i can assert that bedbug treatments start in the $1K range and only go up from there so to me a CL couch is potentially a false economy.
posted by halation at 2:50 PM on February 16, 2019 [29 favorites]
She makes six figures
We make over 150k between the two of us
I make a lot less than she does and I have a TON of health expenses.
So this means she makes at the very least $100,000 and you make $50,000? And probably actually less, since someone probably doesn't just make an even $100K.
Making $100K and questioning the purchases of all this furniture (a new couch and bed alone could run you $10K, and who knows what else is included in getting the apartment "fixed up") is not anywhere near the level of a millionaire quibbling over nickels and dimes. In fact, I'd say it's being quite responsible.
I don't want or need her money.
Could you buy all of this furniture and stuff for the apartment on your own, without her ever paying you back? I doubt it, given your "TON" of health expenses and habits of buying books, movie popcorn, etc. There's nothing wrong with spending on those things, but it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to buy anything you want whenever you want it (fun every day purchases! but also big purchases!) and it sounds like you're using her to subsidize your lifestyle.
If roles were reversed, I would help her out and buy her meals occasionally etc. I would do it out of love and because I was in a position to help her when she needed it. I am not even expecting that. It just makes me feel unloved that she is sometimes selfish and always cheap.
But the roles aren't reversed. So basically you're telling someone who makes a lot more money than you how she should spend it. Really easy to say for someone who didn't have to work for that money. If I were her I would feel like I'm being used for money. And if I started getting nagged to spend money in ways I would never have before you came along, if my financial picture was actually starting to seem worse instead of better now that you're in the picture since you're encouraging spending but bringing little additional income to the table, I would dump you.
What are her long-term financial goals? What are yours? Do you even have any? Have the two of you talked about this? Maybe whatever she is working toward is more important than $5 movie popcorn.
posted by unannihilated at 2:52 PM on February 16, 2019 [67 favorites]
We make over 150k between the two of us
I make a lot less than she does and I have a TON of health expenses.
So this means she makes at the very least $100,000 and you make $50,000? And probably actually less, since someone probably doesn't just make an even $100K.
Making $100K and questioning the purchases of all this furniture (a new couch and bed alone could run you $10K, and who knows what else is included in getting the apartment "fixed up") is not anywhere near the level of a millionaire quibbling over nickels and dimes. In fact, I'd say it's being quite responsible.
I don't want or need her money.
Could you buy all of this furniture and stuff for the apartment on your own, without her ever paying you back? I doubt it, given your "TON" of health expenses and habits of buying books, movie popcorn, etc. There's nothing wrong with spending on those things, but it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to buy anything you want whenever you want it (fun every day purchases! but also big purchases!) and it sounds like you're using her to subsidize your lifestyle.
If roles were reversed, I would help her out and buy her meals occasionally etc. I would do it out of love and because I was in a position to help her when she needed it. I am not even expecting that. It just makes me feel unloved that she is sometimes selfish and always cheap.
But the roles aren't reversed. So basically you're telling someone who makes a lot more money than you how she should spend it. Really easy to say for someone who didn't have to work for that money. If I were her I would feel like I'm being used for money. And if I started getting nagged to spend money in ways I would never have before you came along, if my financial picture was actually starting to seem worse instead of better now that you're in the picture since you're encouraging spending but bringing little additional income to the table, I would dump you.
What are her long-term financial goals? What are yours? Do you even have any? Have the two of you talked about this? Maybe whatever she is working toward is more important than $5 movie popcorn.
posted by unannihilated at 2:52 PM on February 16, 2019 [67 favorites]
You are both in the right here. Both of you have financial attitudes that sound fine and in the range of healthy and responsible. They just happen to be very different and neither of you seems open to compromise.
There is nothing we can say or do to fix your situation: you have some posters who are very much Team GF, others who are very much Team You, and more in between. I'd definitely be someone in between but the thing that sticks out is the vitriol with which you seem to describe each other's financial choices. That lack of respect is deadly for a relationship and, if you think things are bad now, imagine the pain and pettiness were you to get married and then have a contentious divorce.
I don't think you two are hopeless at all but true resolution would probably require huge concessions from each of you. Is that worth it? I don't know: maybe yes, maybe no. You sound really unhappy in your post and I can imagine your girlfriend is, too. You two could have a few sessions with a trusted couples counselor to get to the root of all of this and, hopefully, help mediate a solution that feels mutually beneficial. It's about money but less about dollars and cents and more about deeper core values.
posted by smorgasbord at 2:57 PM on February 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
There is nothing we can say or do to fix your situation: you have some posters who are very much Team GF, others who are very much Team You, and more in between. I'd definitely be someone in between but the thing that sticks out is the vitriol with which you seem to describe each other's financial choices. That lack of respect is deadly for a relationship and, if you think things are bad now, imagine the pain and pettiness were you to get married and then have a contentious divorce.
I don't think you two are hopeless at all but true resolution would probably require huge concessions from each of you. Is that worth it? I don't know: maybe yes, maybe no. You sound really unhappy in your post and I can imagine your girlfriend is, too. You two could have a few sessions with a trusted couples counselor to get to the root of all of this and, hopefully, help mediate a solution that feels mutually beneficial. It's about money but less about dollars and cents and more about deeper core values.
posted by smorgasbord at 2:57 PM on February 16, 2019 [3 favorites]
It just makes me feel unloved
I think you burried the lede here.
Have you approached the issue solely from this point? It sounds like this is a "love languages" issue. You feel loved when your partner is generous, spontaneous and thoughtful with regards to gift giving/money and you'd like for her to show you and express love in those ways. That is a fair thing to ask for.
I think if you keep presenting it as a financial issue, or continue attributing it to negative personality traits of hers, she's going to react defensively and you're going to keep butting heads on this one.
posted by OnefortheLast at 3:01 PM on February 16, 2019 [9 favorites]
I think you burried the lede here.
Have you approached the issue solely from this point? It sounds like this is a "love languages" issue. You feel loved when your partner is generous, spontaneous and thoughtful with regards to gift giving/money and you'd like for her to show you and express love in those ways. That is a fair thing to ask for.
I think if you keep presenting it as a financial issue, or continue attributing it to negative personality traits of hers, she's going to react defensively and you're going to keep butting heads on this one.
posted by OnefortheLast at 3:01 PM on February 16, 2019 [9 favorites]
My boyfriend and I had similar disagreements when we moved I together, but the difference is that I am the one who wants to just buy it and be done AND I'm the one who makes the much larger income. So when I decided that I really wanted to spend money I spent my own money, none of this weird plan about spending someone else's money for my own instant gratification. If you are so financially comfortable, just buy the couch. If you're not, then you can't do that.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 3:02 PM on February 16, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 3:02 PM on February 16, 2019 [9 favorites]
The only red flag in her behavior to me is looking down on you for giving to homeless people, and you don't say that she does that, you say "I know that my girlfriend would judge me when I give money to a homeless person."
About bringing a coffee and feeling like you're beancounting--you don't say that she's doing this, you say that you're doing this. She's not the kind of person who spontaneously buys you a coffee. I wouldn't do that, either. I might buy you a cookie, because it'll keep till later, but a coffee you have to drink hot, and you might not be in the mood for it.
You bought her a Valentine's gift and now feel like you're waiting around for one of equal value. That's your money hang-ups, not hers.
You actually don't describe any beancounting or stingy behavior on your girlfriend's part. So: IS she judging you? Are you guys arguing about this? Is she telling you how you should be saving your money better? Or is she just refusing to spend hers and you're reading it as judgement? (Note, it's entirely possible that she is and specific examples just didn't make it into your message.)
Based on what you've actually written, it sounds like she's living what she considers to be a sensible financial life, and you're beancounting, judging her on her choices, and saying that she doesn't love you if she doesn't spend money on you.
When I moved in with my boyfriend who made 3x what I did, I was the one saving money without cable, cooking at home, etc. He wanted to live a little fancier (cable TV! Netflix subscription! living close to public transit!), and he paid the extra money for that. We split the expenses we agreed on close to evenly and he paid for a lot of extras that I didn't consider to be worth the money. And he didn't begrudge me the fact that I was living with fancy high-speed internet for free.
But you are the one with less money. You can't afford to live the way you want, and you don't get to decide how she spends her money--full stop.
Finally, I want to second OnefortheLast's love languages suggestion. She is not refusing you love; she's refusing you money. You need to get on the same page.
posted by gideonfrog at 3:04 PM on February 16, 2019 [21 favorites]
About bringing a coffee and feeling like you're beancounting--you don't say that she's doing this, you say that you're doing this. She's not the kind of person who spontaneously buys you a coffee. I wouldn't do that, either. I might buy you a cookie, because it'll keep till later, but a coffee you have to drink hot, and you might not be in the mood for it.
You bought her a Valentine's gift and now feel like you're waiting around for one of equal value. That's your money hang-ups, not hers.
You actually don't describe any beancounting or stingy behavior on your girlfriend's part. So: IS she judging you? Are you guys arguing about this? Is she telling you how you should be saving your money better? Or is she just refusing to spend hers and you're reading it as judgement? (Note, it's entirely possible that she is and specific examples just didn't make it into your message.)
Based on what you've actually written, it sounds like she's living what she considers to be a sensible financial life, and you're beancounting, judging her on her choices, and saying that she doesn't love you if she doesn't spend money on you.
When I moved in with my boyfriend who made 3x what I did, I was the one saving money without cable, cooking at home, etc. He wanted to live a little fancier (cable TV! Netflix subscription! living close to public transit!), and he paid the extra money for that. We split the expenses we agreed on close to evenly and he paid for a lot of extras that I didn't consider to be worth the money. And he didn't begrudge me the fact that I was living with fancy high-speed internet for free.
But you are the one with less money. You can't afford to live the way you want, and you don't get to decide how she spends her money--full stop.
Finally, I want to second OnefortheLast's love languages suggestion. She is not refusing you love; she's refusing you money. You need to get on the same page.
posted by gideonfrog at 3:04 PM on February 16, 2019 [21 favorites]
Also, you're missing what's really gross here - the Craigslist couch. Blech, my outlook is more like your GF's but I wouldn't do that. It's not worth the bedbug risk and ick factor. Just wait a few months to get the couch if that's the only other option!
posted by unannihilated at 3:08 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by unannihilated at 3:08 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
I know that my girlfriend would judge me when I give money to a homeless person.
Like, she would judge you for being kind to someone in a horrible and dangerous situation, that they're probably in due to fleeing abuse or having a disability or having been thrown out by their parents?
I am sure other people have a lot of good thoughts about other aspects of your issue, but this is the one that really bothers me. If she is judging you for being compassionate with your pocket change, that speaks to having a significantly different view of the world around you, how you interact with it, and what it means to be a good person.
Looking at your previous asks, it seems like you feel a lot of pressure in this relationship. One of your prior posts said you can't ever relax when you're with her. These two things together are, to me, major signs of incompatibility. You two are going to need to do a ton of work if you want to stay together, and I'm really not sure why you would want to stay together.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:11 PM on February 16, 2019 [8 favorites]
Like, she would judge you for being kind to someone in a horrible and dangerous situation, that they're probably in due to fleeing abuse or having a disability or having been thrown out by their parents?
I am sure other people have a lot of good thoughts about other aspects of your issue, but this is the one that really bothers me. If she is judging you for being compassionate with your pocket change, that speaks to having a significantly different view of the world around you, how you interact with it, and what it means to be a good person.
Looking at your previous asks, it seems like you feel a lot of pressure in this relationship. One of your prior posts said you can't ever relax when you're with her. These two things together are, to me, major signs of incompatibility. You two are going to need to do a ton of work if you want to stay together, and I'm really not sure why you would want to stay together.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:11 PM on February 16, 2019 [8 favorites]
Well... do you save any money? It sounds like from your income level and expenses/attitude towards spending you are likely not putting much away. There are a lot of long term goals that she may be saving for-- a house downpayment, travel, retirement, kids. If y'all are together for the long term, that's going to benefit you, too, and she may feel more pressure to save since you, her partner, isn't pitching in.
posted by geegollygosh at 3:14 PM on February 16, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by geegollygosh at 3:14 PM on February 16, 2019 [11 favorites]
oh, also, if you're making roughly half of what she makes, it's fair for you to pay half as long as it works out to be cheaper than living on your own used to be. but it's just as fair to discuss contributing to expenses in proportion to your respective incomes. some people would also take health spending into account as a joint expense.
I'd say you should arrange things this way if you aren't already, you pay a third of the rent instead of a half, or however the math works out. that will leave you with more money to spend freely and less reason to push her to spend hers in a way she doesn't want to. a solution, as long as you're prepared to let her keep her personality the way she likes it. (unless this arrangement would leave her, but not you, spending more than she did as a single person. that would be a reasonable objection.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:20 PM on February 16, 2019
I'd say you should arrange things this way if you aren't already, you pay a third of the rent instead of a half, or however the math works out. that will leave you with more money to spend freely and less reason to push her to spend hers in a way she doesn't want to. a solution, as long as you're prepared to let her keep her personality the way she likes it. (unless this arrangement would leave her, but not you, spending more than she did as a single person. that would be a reasonable objection.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:20 PM on February 16, 2019
I’m more like your partner in that I earn a decent wage and I budget frugally and horde my money like a dragon. This is because when I was younger and not yet stable in a decent paying job I was always broke, sort of lackadaisical about money, and racked up a ton of credit card debt that got a bit out of control. One time I was so broke that my card was declined for a freaking bagel and I was mortified. So now I am cheap as fuck just out of a sense of discipline even though I don’t NEED to be. Maybe something similar happened with her?
posted by Young Kullervo at 3:27 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Young Kullervo at 3:27 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
I am very frugal and that has allowed me to have some financial freedom, like being able to leave a toxic boss, being able to travel. I never made a *lot*, but when I made more, I was generous when I could be. To me, cheap is not paying bills, chiseling small businesses, not tipping fairly, not giving to charity, fussing too much over who had what on a shared check. Being smart with money is budgeting major purchases, living below your means, paying attention to spending and investments, avoiding consumerism, having savings, a budget & financial goals.
You have to learn to talk about it. Tell her it would be meaningful if she surprised you with the occasional small gift, similar to the coffee, or picked up the coffee. In her terms, maybe that means budgeting for generosity to you. Sounds weird and unromantic, but who cares. But also, her financial discipline means she probably has healthy savings for emergencies, retirement, buying a home, whatever, and no debt. You really could both learn from the other.
Therapy & financial advisor, both good ideas.
posted by theora55 at 4:15 PM on February 16, 2019 [6 favorites]
You have to learn to talk about it. Tell her it would be meaningful if she surprised you with the occasional small gift, similar to the coffee, or picked up the coffee. In her terms, maybe that means budgeting for generosity to you. Sounds weird and unromantic, but who cares. But also, her financial discipline means she probably has healthy savings for emergencies, retirement, buying a home, whatever, and no debt. You really could both learn from the other.
Therapy & financial advisor, both good ideas.
posted by theora55 at 4:15 PM on February 16, 2019 [6 favorites]
Couples who make $150k/yr don't argue about spending money for popcorn at the cinema unless there's something much more complicated going on. I'd argue that this isn't about any sort of rational disagreement and it's probably never going to change. The question to ask is whether all the good things about the relationship are worth it. The answer could be yes.
posted by eotvos at 4:21 PM on February 16, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by eotvos at 4:21 PM on February 16, 2019 [7 favorites]
Is she paying off student loans? Because whatever you think her gross is, that's going to eat into her net significantly
posted by fluttering hellfire at 4:28 PM on February 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 4:28 PM on February 16, 2019 [4 favorites]
Perhaps I am a more generous person. I will see that Starbucks has a coffee flavor that she would like and buy her a coffee as a surprise. She would never do that.
But she'd probably never buy herself a random Starbucks either, right? It's not like she's a hypocrite; she just values holding on to that money more than she does sharing/gifting that ephemeral experience. Does she actually want you to give her gifts like this? I'd guess not, from what you've described of her. If you do want gifts like that, you'll need to explain it plainly, because to her it probably seems obvious that saving the money for something bigger is the greater gift.
As you might have guessed, I'm broadly in line with your girlfriend, money-personality-wise. In the case of my relationship I'm the "poorer" partner so it kind of makes sense, but it's also kind of funny that I'm often arguing my spouse out of spending "their" own money (we're married in a joint-property state, so it really is technically half mine, but the pattern predates that). Anyway, my partner is also the one who doesn't "want" to worry about three dollars, or five dollars, or whatever. I think ideally they'd only start paying attention when it's more than $30-50. But that's not actually the world we live in, you know? If nothing else, you have to at least figure out how many times you can afford to ignore those $5 transactions. Would $50 evaporating be enough to burn you? $150? Surely there's a point where you could have spontaneously bought so many books and rental movies and surprise coffees that there's not enough left for something important. If you don't know where that point is, you're living dangerously. If you do know, then it's time to set a boundary with your girlfriend: "Hey, I've got $100 in fun money this month and this purchase is coming out of that, so please don't make a big deal about it."
Related: if movie theater popcorn is important to you, that just belongs in the budget (assuming the money's there). If she wants to insist that it come out of "your" money instead of "y'all's" money or much less "her" money, that seems fair to me. As you say, it's not really that much for something you love. And if you're paying for it, she should leave you alone about it as long as it's not cutting into what you're supposed to be contributing.
As far as the couch and/or bed goes, I think you both just need to talk about it. Get real numbers, figure out what your questions are and research them, seek advice. Maybe potential bedbugs are so awful you should run screaming from Craigslist, or everything on there is ugly anyway, but maybe there's something relatively inexpensive on Amazon or whatever that you'd be happy with, instead of walking into a furniture store and opening your wallet. Or maybe someone you know and trust has a good-enough couch to offload. Compromise! It's not like one of you must be Correct and the other Wrong.
posted by teremala at 4:36 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
But she'd probably never buy herself a random Starbucks either, right? It's not like she's a hypocrite; she just values holding on to that money more than she does sharing/gifting that ephemeral experience. Does she actually want you to give her gifts like this? I'd guess not, from what you've described of her. If you do want gifts like that, you'll need to explain it plainly, because to her it probably seems obvious that saving the money for something bigger is the greater gift.
As you might have guessed, I'm broadly in line with your girlfriend, money-personality-wise. In the case of my relationship I'm the "poorer" partner so it kind of makes sense, but it's also kind of funny that I'm often arguing my spouse out of spending "their" own money (we're married in a joint-property state, so it really is technically half mine, but the pattern predates that). Anyway, my partner is also the one who doesn't "want" to worry about three dollars, or five dollars, or whatever. I think ideally they'd only start paying attention when it's more than $30-50. But that's not actually the world we live in, you know? If nothing else, you have to at least figure out how many times you can afford to ignore those $5 transactions. Would $50 evaporating be enough to burn you? $150? Surely there's a point where you could have spontaneously bought so many books and rental movies and surprise coffees that there's not enough left for something important. If you don't know where that point is, you're living dangerously. If you do know, then it's time to set a boundary with your girlfriend: "Hey, I've got $100 in fun money this month and this purchase is coming out of that, so please don't make a big deal about it."
Related: if movie theater popcorn is important to you, that just belongs in the budget (assuming the money's there). If she wants to insist that it come out of "your" money instead of "y'all's" money or much less "her" money, that seems fair to me. As you say, it's not really that much for something you love. And if you're paying for it, she should leave you alone about it as long as it's not cutting into what you're supposed to be contributing.
As far as the couch and/or bed goes, I think you both just need to talk about it. Get real numbers, figure out what your questions are and research them, seek advice. Maybe potential bedbugs are so awful you should run screaming from Craigslist, or everything on there is ugly anyway, but maybe there's something relatively inexpensive on Amazon or whatever that you'd be happy with, instead of walking into a furniture store and opening your wallet. Or maybe someone you know and trust has a good-enough couch to offload. Compromise! It's not like one of you must be Correct and the other Wrong.
posted by teremala at 4:36 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
Dude, this is normal stuff and normal anxiety from when you are going from your own place to moving in with someone. It's not that big of a deal, IMHO. You love this person and they love you, and you will work it out. You just need to calm down and relax. No one's going to judge you on your coffee or homeless dollars.
It's totally normal to feel weird about not being able to make your own decisions (re: the bed) and want to revert back to being single and do it yourself. Does she really put you down for buying coffee or giving a buck to someone? Or is it your anxiety about moving in with her?
You have a bed, right? And it's okay? You can afford to take your time here. Stop worrying so much, it will be all right. Be happy that you are living with someone you love, and stop projecting crap onto the future. There is no future crap: you are living with a nice person whom you love, and it is happening right now, and it will all be okay.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 5:13 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
It's totally normal to feel weird about not being able to make your own decisions (re: the bed) and want to revert back to being single and do it yourself. Does she really put you down for buying coffee or giving a buck to someone? Or is it your anxiety about moving in with her?
You have a bed, right? And it's okay? You can afford to take your time here. Stop worrying so much, it will be all right. Be happy that you are living with someone you love, and stop projecting crap onto the future. There is no future crap: you are living with a nice person whom you love, and it is happening right now, and it will all be okay.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 5:13 PM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
I wonder: has she ever been truly poor? Have you? Because the most important thing a poor person can do when they make a bit more money is still live like they are poor, that is literally the primary way out of being poor.
Also some of this is just values. I could afford one or even a handful of $3k couches or outfits but I’m pretty sure I never will, because I value buying used stuff, and no matter how much money I make that will not change. It’s not cheapness, it’s just a different assessment of what has value and why.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:31 PM on February 16, 2019 [7 favorites]
Also some of this is just values. I could afford one or even a handful of $3k couches or outfits but I’m pretty sure I never will, because I value buying used stuff, and no matter how much money I make that will not change. It’s not cheapness, it’s just a different assessment of what has value and why.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:31 PM on February 16, 2019 [7 favorites]
But she'd probably never buy herself a random Starbucks either, right? It's not like she's a hypocrite; she just values holding on to that money more than she does sharing/gifting that ephemeral experience.
Yeah, this. It doesn’t sound like she’s being unfair, it just sounds like she is pretty thrifty and doesn’t do random splurges, and you are feeling frustrated about it.
To be honest it also feels kind of like you are expecting her to subsidize your vision of what your lifestyle should be because she makes more money than you. There’s a lot of “If I were in her place, I would” going on. I agree with several other posters that her money doesn’t belong to you even if you are living together, and she’s entitled to live frugally if she wishes. Not buying stuff if it’s not in the budget is a perfectly reasonable way to live.
posted by corb at 5:57 PM on February 16, 2019 [22 favorites]
Yeah, this. It doesn’t sound like she’s being unfair, it just sounds like she is pretty thrifty and doesn’t do random splurges, and you are feeling frustrated about it.
To be honest it also feels kind of like you are expecting her to subsidize your vision of what your lifestyle should be because she makes more money than you. There’s a lot of “If I were in her place, I would” going on. I agree with several other posters that her money doesn’t belong to you even if you are living together, and she’s entitled to live frugally if she wishes. Not buying stuff if it’s not in the budget is a perfectly reasonable way to live.
posted by corb at 5:57 PM on February 16, 2019 [22 favorites]
It sounds as if you are both emotionally attached to what money means. And you both happen to be on the opposite side of the spectrum. Talking it out with a third party may be helpful, as it will keep the feelings from running the conversation.
I do think there may be something odd going on if you don’t feel comfortable just reaching in your pocket for five bucks when you want some popcorn. You don’t need her permission for that, so why is it an issue?
posted by MountainDaisy at 7:33 PM on February 16, 2019
I do think there may be something odd going on if you don’t feel comfortable just reaching in your pocket for five bucks when you want some popcorn. You don’t need her permission for that, so why is it an issue?
posted by MountainDaisy at 7:33 PM on February 16, 2019
You mention in past questions that you struggle with anxiety and have trouble relaxing. It sounds like you're blaming your girlfriend for some of this now (you feel that you can't relax without getting a new bed now rather than in a few months), but I don't think that's fair; most people wouldn't think it was a big deal to wait. You're also judging her for how she spends money, but that's her choice...you don't sound respectful, even though you also say that you're happy she can help reign you in and be better about money. Maybe you really aren't compatible, but I think you need to focus less on wanting to change her and more on what's positive about her approach.
posted by pinochiette at 7:35 PM on February 16, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by pinochiette at 7:35 PM on February 16, 2019 [7 favorites]
I like to buy stuff for my house that I enjoy. I don't want to buy a couch on Craigslist to save a few bucks. We make over 150k between the two of us. We can afford it.
There are two kinds of people when it comes to deciding about a purchase. There are people who ask "Can I afford what it costs?" and people who ask "Is it worth what it costs?" And I think people in each group barely know and almost can't believe the other type of person exists. You are observing, correctly, that you both would like a couch and you have enough money to buy the couch, and to you, that means it's obvious you should buy the couch. She feels that the price of a new couch is way higher than the amount she would value it. Both ways of being are fine. But you have to get out of the mindset that there's something wrong with her way.
posted by escabeche at 7:44 PM on February 16, 2019 [13 favorites]
There are two kinds of people when it comes to deciding about a purchase. There are people who ask "Can I afford what it costs?" and people who ask "Is it worth what it costs?" And I think people in each group barely know and almost can't believe the other type of person exists. You are observing, correctly, that you both would like a couch and you have enough money to buy the couch, and to you, that means it's obvious you should buy the couch. She feels that the price of a new couch is way higher than the amount she would value it. Both ways of being are fine. But you have to get out of the mindset that there's something wrong with her way.
posted by escabeche at 7:44 PM on February 16, 2019 [13 favorites]
You make 50% of what she makes, and have significant health expenses. She s not judging you for giving a dollar to a homeless person. She's judging you for not earning enough money to ensure your security. Your security, in her mind, may become her responsibility and she is freaked out.
I don't know if weddings and children are in your future, but those things cost a lot. She may want to stay home longer than paid maternity, which means 3 people relying on your $50 k salary. Or what if your health problems mean you can't work for awhile? Then it's all on her.
I know this looks like catastrophizing, but some people just think its about planning. Its not going to get better until you get serious about saving, and show her you are serious.
Your best bet is downsizing your lifestyle to where you both live like you earn $50k, for a total of $100k as a couple. She might be relieved to bank her savings for the future.
posted by perdhapley at 8:54 PM on February 16, 2019 [21 favorites]
I don't know if weddings and children are in your future, but those things cost a lot. She may want to stay home longer than paid maternity, which means 3 people relying on your $50 k salary. Or what if your health problems mean you can't work for awhile? Then it's all on her.
I know this looks like catastrophizing, but some people just think its about planning. Its not going to get better until you get serious about saving, and show her you are serious.
Your best bet is downsizing your lifestyle to where you both live like you earn $50k, for a total of $100k as a couple. She might be relieved to bank her savings for the future.
posted by perdhapley at 8:54 PM on February 16, 2019 [21 favorites]
It took me awhile to learn that budgeting includes placing available money in categories for future purposes. She may have an emergency fund with thousands of dollars available but that isn't a couch fund and is in the emergency catagory for a reason. What she is doing is creating a assigned monitary value in a couch catagory (or home furnishings) and putting money into that catagory until the value is met. When the value is met, she buys. Every dollar in her budget is assigned somewhere. She likely has a discretionary section, which is where popcorn and stuff comes out from.
For her, retirement may be more valuable than popcorn, she assigns more to one than the other. The important thing is every dollar has a assigned place before it is spent. She decided that prior to you asking for popcorn at the theater.
Neither way is wrong, and I definately believe in enjoying the moment AND that retirement is important. Understanding how she budgets will help you understand the motivations of her choices.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:25 AM on February 17, 2019 [11 favorites]
For her, retirement may be more valuable than popcorn, she assigns more to one than the other. The important thing is every dollar has a assigned place before it is spent. She decided that prior to you asking for popcorn at the theater.
Neither way is wrong, and I definately believe in enjoying the moment AND that retirement is important. Understanding how she budgets will help you understand the motivations of her choices.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:25 AM on February 17, 2019 [11 favorites]
Like Saltysalticid pointed out, I too wonder what your class backgrounds are. This stuff is deep so you are right to want to talk about it / work through it. Your girlfriend reminds me of me: someone who had so little for so long that the thought of NOT living below my means fills me with physical terror. Having to let hospital bills go to debt collection or find a ride because you can't afford to fill your car with gas will put you on the used couch train RIGHT QUICK.
No matter, you need to start talking about money, not only how to move forward but your CHILDHOODS, too, and come up with a way forward that makes you both feel safe.
posted by athirstforsalt at 7:49 AM on February 17, 2019 [3 favorites]
No matter, you need to start talking about money, not only how to move forward but your CHILDHOODS, too, and come up with a way forward that makes you both feel safe.
posted by athirstforsalt at 7:49 AM on February 17, 2019 [3 favorites]
Again, it is not the money. It is the way that it makes me feel
I believe you. I think the challenge here is learning how to make the other person feel loved. To use the Starbucks example you gave, you might feel loved if your girlfriend brought you a surprise coffee, but maybe that doesn’t do it for her. In that case, don’t buy her Starbucks, but do a different type of thing that makes her feel good. Would you be willing to do whatever that thing was, even if it didn’t involve spending any money?
You’re not married, but if you were, I would recommend that you each have a specific budget you can spend (or not spend) on whatever you like, with no judgement whatsoever. Clear, and clearly enforced financial boundaries are very important to the health of a long term relationship. However, if you’re not at the point of a joint budget, I recommend that you spend your money, and she spend hers. If you don’t like her judging how you spend your money, don’t judge her on how she spends, or doesn’t spend, hers. It’s not about the money, it’s about having healthy boundaries.
posted by GliblyKronor at 8:08 AM on February 17, 2019 [3 favorites]
I believe you. I think the challenge here is learning how to make the other person feel loved. To use the Starbucks example you gave, you might feel loved if your girlfriend brought you a surprise coffee, but maybe that doesn’t do it for her. In that case, don’t buy her Starbucks, but do a different type of thing that makes her feel good. Would you be willing to do whatever that thing was, even if it didn’t involve spending any money?
You’re not married, but if you were, I would recommend that you each have a specific budget you can spend (or not spend) on whatever you like, with no judgement whatsoever. Clear, and clearly enforced financial boundaries are very important to the health of a long term relationship. However, if you’re not at the point of a joint budget, I recommend that you spend your money, and she spend hers. If you don’t like her judging how you spend your money, don’t judge her on how she spends, or doesn’t spend, hers. It’s not about the money, it’s about having healthy boundaries.
posted by GliblyKronor at 8:08 AM on February 17, 2019 [3 favorites]
As a saver (and to build on what AlexiaSky said): Every dollar that comes in has a job, and my budget/spreadsheet determines what its role is.
My partner and I are now on the same page financially, but we weren't at the start. My instinct was to save, while his was to meet current obligations then have fun. Our compromises have been:
1) I do the budgeting, money tracking, investments, financial planning, ... this one of my hobbies.
2) He identifies purchases that should happen, researches the features, optimizes for cost/convenience, ... this is one of his hobbies.
3) We identify goals ahead of time: a new car fund, couches (this was an actual thing for us 5 years ago!), retirement, kids' education, etc. Then we save towards all our goals each month. When the money comes in, I siphon off as much as I can into the saving pool. After allocating the savings money each month, I make sure there is a little extra left over and I ask my partner where he would like to allocate it. He feels that we are meeting our goals and that he has a say in the speed at which we move towards things he thinks are important.
4) We have a rule that we spend 100% of our travel money each year. Because I wouldn't.
We are living happily below our means. He trusts that I have the family's future in hand. I trust that he makes sure we are living a luxurious life of comfort.
I tell you this because I think both my partner and I think we have the best of both worlds: gratification today (edit: anticipating the gratification later while saving today!) and a secure future. We've made this work during times when we have each drastically out-earned the other and when our incomes have been equal. And when we buy things, it is a real treat!
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 9:29 AM on February 17, 2019 [10 favorites]
My partner and I are now on the same page financially, but we weren't at the start. My instinct was to save, while his was to meet current obligations then have fun. Our compromises have been:
1) I do the budgeting, money tracking, investments, financial planning, ... this one of my hobbies.
2) He identifies purchases that should happen, researches the features, optimizes for cost/convenience, ... this is one of his hobbies.
3) We identify goals ahead of time: a new car fund, couches (this was an actual thing for us 5 years ago!), retirement, kids' education, etc. Then we save towards all our goals each month. When the money comes in, I siphon off as much as I can into the saving pool. After allocating the savings money each month, I make sure there is a little extra left over and I ask my partner where he would like to allocate it. He feels that we are meeting our goals and that he has a say in the speed at which we move towards things he thinks are important.
4) We have a rule that we spend 100% of our travel money each year. Because I wouldn't.
We are living happily below our means. He trusts that I have the family's future in hand. I trust that he makes sure we are living a luxurious life of comfort.
I tell you this because I think both my partner and I think we have the best of both worlds: gratification today (edit: anticipating the gratification later while saving today!) and a secure future. We've made this work during times when we have each drastically out-earned the other and when our incomes have been equal. And when we buy things, it is a real treat!
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 9:29 AM on February 17, 2019 [10 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I think it would help for you to stop thinking of her as wrong. It's important to her that she feel in control and stable financially. (And I will say that if you're still together when you're old and grey I think you will appreciate this very much.) In the mean time, though, the answer to this is to communicate with her. People with different spending and saving habits can learn to manage their lives together, but not without hashing out how it's going to work. You need to figure that out, and stop assigning emotion to what for her is almost certainly not emotional. She wants to have enough money. She doesn't want to hurt you. You have to take the emotion out of it and talk with her about how to set up your financial life together.
posted by something something at 1:00 PM on February 16, 2019 [21 favorites]