Can immune boosters weaken your immune system?

February 22, 2006 10:42 AM

Immune System: Is it possible to weaken the immune system by boosting it too much and too often?

An Ask MeFi search and a few Google searches didn't answer my question:

I usually drink a smoothie every day for breakfast (see recipe here) and recently have been eating cereal (shredded wheat, corn flakes, each unfrosted, with organic soymilk) instead about 4 days of the week. Several of the ingredients in the smoothie are known to affect/"boost" the immune system, from flax seed to all the nutrients, vitamins, and antioxidants in the fruits and fruit juices. Also, I use this brown rice protein powder (not soy or whey) if it makes any difference.

On Friday through Monday I came down with some funky single-symptom cold/flu/mysterious sickness and was talking to my boyfriend about it, mentioning that I haven't had the smoothies much lately and maybe that increased my chances of getting sick. He expressed concern that maybe by taking this stuff every day, I am making my immune system dependent and therefore weaker without supplements. Does the immune system work this way? Does it build up a tolerance similar to the way the brain does in response to pain killers?

I'm especially interested in answers from doctors, nurses, medical students, nutritionists and the like.

posted by mojabunni to health & fitness (28 comments total)

Hahaha. I don't think drinking too many smoothies could weaken your immune system via 'over boosting'. I mean, who's to say of those smoothies are actually even doing anything.

Of course, anything is possible. It may be that you're taking so many smoothies that you're missing out on other foods and nutrients your body craves, although I would imagine these smoothies probably have all of them.

Generally (from what I understand) there are two ways to boost something in the body, either by providing more chemicals that the body needs to do the task, or by causing a hormonal change that signals the body to do more of something.

From what I remember of one of my psych classes, when you get stressed out, your body's immune system will spike for a while, then decrease. If the smoothies work by making the immune system think you're under stress, then they might have the same effect over time.

But more likely, the smoothies just contain chemicals that make it easy for your body to produce more white blood cells and antibodies and other components of the immune system.

As far as I know the reasons that long stress effects the immune system is not very well understood at all

Anyway, I think most likely you just got sick, which is still possible even with your super-human fruit powered immune system.
posted by delmoi at 11:17 AM on February 22, 2006

It is possible to overdose on some vitamins and minerals, but I doubt that your supplements would give you flu-like symptoms.
posted by Human Flesh at 11:24 AM on February 22, 2006

yeah I think you (and the rest of america) needs to rething this concept of immune system "boosting". Its not a force shield or some kind of army. Its not some video game with a number of bars to indicate your health. Its your body--enormously complex and very dirty.
As far as I know, supplements and smoothies do very little or possibly nothing.
posted by alkupe at 11:32 AM on February 22, 2006

What alkupe said.
posted by unixrat at 11:43 AM on February 22, 2006

I should add that I haven't been particularly stressed or anything. I generally manage stress quite well, preferring to keep responsibilities to a minimum if I have a lot going on. I'm not speculating that smoothies shield me from getting sick or anything - just that this prompted this discussion of wondering if the immune system can be affected adversely.
posted by mojabunni at 11:49 AM on February 22, 2006

None of the ingredients you're talking about are immune-specific. I've seen recommendations for taking breaks from things like echinacea, but that's only because it stops being effective if you take it all the time. Anti-oxidants, wheatgrass, omega-6, and various vitamins are generally good for more than just your immune system, and are generally hard to OD on (with the exception of Vitamin A, it seems), and are generally recommended as a "get more of these daily" thing.

No, it's not a "magic force field," but I don't know why everyone's being so dismissive.
posted by occhiblu at 11:52 AM on February 22, 2006

I always get sick when I change my habits or diet. If I decide to start eating healthy, I get sick for a few days. Decide to start working out, I get sick for a few days. Once I get into the groove everything's fine. Then I stop and I get sick for a few days. That's just me, but maybe that's you too. My body just doesn't like sweeping changes.
posted by Moondoggie at 12:10 PM on February 22, 2006

They're being dismissive because "boosting" your immune system is pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo that has never been verified in any well-designed scientific study in vivo, apart from in those who have things like major vitamin deficiencies. As such, when you buy a smoothie which makes such claims at an absurd markup, you are being had. A capitalist is manipulating you in order to separate you from your money.
posted by drpynchon at 12:14 PM on February 22, 2006

Yes, but if you actually *read* the link, you'll see she's (a) making her own and (b) not putting all that much mumbo-jumbo in it. It's not a ImmuneBoostZ(TM) from Jamba Juice; it's:

1-2 cups apple juice, 1-2 cups frozen strawberries, 1-2 bananas, optional ice cubes for thickness, optional frozen yogurt (vanilla), 1-2tbsp. protein powder, 1-2tbsp. honey and/or a few drops of stevia liquid extract, 1-2tsp. ground golden flax seeds, 1-2tsp. powdered greens such as spirulina and wheat grass, 1-2tsp. wheat germ and/or nutritional yeast.... You can also break open a multivitamin capsule and put that in there.
posted by occhiblu at 12:19 PM on February 22, 2006

occhiblu, what's mumbo-jumbo is not the strawberries themselves, but rather the claim that this modest, sweet, possibly extra-healthy drink is going to have any significant effect on The Immune System, whatever the promoters of these products claim such a system to be.
posted by rxrfrx at 12:50 PM on February 22, 2006

Your smoothie is doing nothing to your immune system (either humoral or cell-mediated). You really want to "juice" it up into high gear, use the same strategy as vaccine manufacturers (see "adjuvants") and mainline some aluminium salts, dried mycobacteria (or alternatives), or some good old-fashioned mercury.

There's a possibility that a terpene plant extracts such as QS21 ("soap bark") may also irritate your immune system enough to enhance a response. Terpenes are produced by many plants with serious astringent bark defences. Think: "turpentine" or "paint thinner". If it thins your paint, it thins the cell walls of invading bacteria and basically ruins their day. Terpenes do taste like bitter crap though.
posted by meehawl at 1:07 PM on February 22, 2006

I think the existence of an immune system is pretty well documented. I think the benefits on this system of eating well and getting enough vitamins are pretty well documented. I think also, as I pointed out, what's in the smoothie is pretty standard "good for you" stuff.

No, I don't think not having a smoothie made the poster sick. But I also don't think that healthy eating is somehow *bad* for one's immune system, or some total scam concocted by capitalist pigs, which some of the comments are leaning towards.
posted by occhiblu at 1:08 PM on February 22, 2006

Your smoothie is doing nothing to your immune system

What? Of course it does something to the immune system. The system functions more effectively when it has the necessary vitamins, nutrients, whatever, that the body needs. If the smoothie contains all or some of said nutrients, the immune system will be affected.

I don't get the dismissiveness either. 'Healthy' smoothies clearly aren't a magic bullet, but some is surely better than none.

Anyway, to respond to the question, I doubt coming cold turkey off smoothies is going to make you sick. IANAD and so forth, but maybe there are other dietary issues at work?
posted by BorgLove at 1:30 PM on February 22, 2006

occhiblu: the smoothies may be "good" for you, and help your immune system by giving you the building blocks for it, but its not "boosting" it, and it certanly won't stop anyone from ever getting sick.
posted by delmoi at 1:33 PM on February 22, 2006

I think people are getting hung up on terminology. Something that "helps" is "boosting," and the fact that various pseudo-nutritionists and health chains also use the word "boost" for less-than-effective products doesn't really change that.
posted by occhiblu at 1:52 PM on February 22, 2006

occhiblu--read the question again. wrapped up in there is some idea that these shakes directly boost the immune system. Not like indirectly, in a general kind of way, but directly in a "fuel for your immune system" kind of way. This is what I am dismissive of.
Let me phrase this more as an answer to mojabunni's question: despite what you consider "known", no one has any idea how these shakes you are taking affect your immune system. There's no evidence they directly boost (or could do the opposite) your immune system. From my vantage point, a lack of evidence means they do nothing.
posted by alkupe at 2:33 PM on February 22, 2006

Your diet as you describe it will not adversely affect your immune system.

Vitamin overdoses occur with lipid (fat) soluble vitamins, with vitamin A being the most common one. Most other vitamins and minerals are water soluble and excess amounts will be excreted in urine.

However many microbial pathogens (bacteria and viruses) can also use the nutrients that you ingest. Having too many freely available micronutrients may create an environment where these microorganisms will thrive. Taking vitamin supplements after the onset of illness symptoms is not recommended. Eating a balanced diet should be sufficient.

Boosting the immune system: yes, it's possible. Your immune system consists of two general types; innate and adaptive. The innate immune system recognizes evolutionarily conserved microbial structures, often referred to as - Pathogen Associated Molecular Patterns - these are bits of bacteria and viruses that haven't changed much evolutionarily. Your innate immune system recognizes these as danger signals.

Your innate immune system will then tell the adaptive immune system that something bad is going on and the adapative immune system will surveil for antigens specific to the dangerous pathogen. If this is done successfully, the adapative immune system will be able to rapidly react to the same antigen if encountered in the future.

Vaccines contain both antigen specific to the pathogen to be vaccinated against. It also contains a small amount of adjuvant (synthetic or deliberately added PAMPS) that stimulate the innate immune system to turn on the adaptive immune system.

Chronic stimulation by (synthetic/purified) PAMPS, in animal models at least, can damage the immune system.

Also, synthetic/purified PAMPS are being tested as a way to boost the immune system to do certain things like fight cancer or to increase the immunity of people who are immunocompromised.
posted by PurplePorpoise at 2:37 PM on February 22, 2006

No, I don't think not having a smoothie made the poster sick. But I also don't think that healthy eating is somehow *bad* for one's immune system, or some total scam concocted by capitalist pigs, which some of the comments are leaning towards.

Me and the two infectious disease specialists I'm eating lunch with will continue to snicker.

Of course it's a scam. The whole industry of health foods and dietary supplements, with its dubious lack of regulation and monitoring, is a scam. It's all about maximizing the margins in the softest target group (ehem.. bougie.. ehem..). Sure, these products in general aren't harmful. And yes, having various vitamin deficiencies can cause health problems. But I assure you that if you take the population of upper-middle class smoothie-gulping Americans, and subtract the smoothies from their diets, you wouldn't find much in the way of vitamin deficiencies. Moreover, while you can think whatever you like, as I said, it is NOT well documented that things like wheat grass, spirulina, ecchinacea, etc. have a demonstrable effect on the human immune system in vivo. Some reputable scientists may have theorized that that might be the case, but generally the available studies haven't born out such theories. That hasn't stopped industries from touting unsupported health benefits with vague language like "boosting the immune system," which is written carefully to avoid earning a classification as a drug, requiring FDA monitoring.
posted by drpynchon at 3:18 PM on February 22, 2006

Of course it's a scam. The whole industry of health foods and dietary supplements, with its dubious lack of regulation and monitoring, is a scam....It's all about maximizing the margins in the softest target group...

That's funny, doc. How can ANYTHING be more of a scam than the pharmaceutical industry? How can ANY industry match the "maximizing" of margins than the pharmaceutical industry? Yet, doctors worship at the shrine of Big Pharma.
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posted by Gerard Sorme at 3:38 PM on February 22, 2006

That's funny, doc. How can ANYTHING be more of a scam than the pharmaceutical industry? How can ANY industry match the "maximizing" of margins than the pharmaceutical industry? Yet, doctors worship at the shrine of Big Pharma.

Thanks for the off-topic sniping and all, but I have no shortage of complaints about the pharmaceutical industry. That said, when I write a prescription, I usually know the specific randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled studies that were done to support its use. And for example, in the case of say fish oil supplements (which are not prescription drugs) which I often recommend, I do the same. But thanks for the uninformed ranting and implied accusations.
posted by drpynchon at 3:46 PM on February 22, 2006

I echo the sentiment that the immune system is very complicated and should not be understood as something that can be wholly strengthened or weakened. As discussed, the humoral and cell-mediated pathways are two distinct arms of the immune system. Because of feedback loops, strengthening (upregulating) one comes at the cost of weakening (downregulating) the other.

I read the "Flax Facts" document and much of the claims are not conclusive. The document reports scientific data in a biased way by leaving out the details. If the report is true, the flax oil encourages release of certain cytokines that invoke the anti-inflammatory response. That would be helpful in preventing atherosclerosis but would also contribute to you catching a cold. The idea is that constantly stimulating the inflammatory response is bad, but we also cannot do without it.

There seems to be good and bad aspects to your described diet. Your smoothie recipe w/ greens and brown rice indicate an active consumption of fiber, which makes you feel full (lowers your demand for food) and helps protect against colorectal cancer. Your smoothie must also be high in antioxidants which are also good in preventing certain types of cancer and aging. The bad aspect is that some nutritionally-minded people unwittingly overcompensate leading to bad consequences. Already discussed was overdosing on fat-soluble vitamins. Other aspects include altering the natural balance of the immune system.

Bottom line: Your diet is mostly good. Your desire to ask medical professionals about your diet is a good first step. Be skeptical of the claimed benefits of uncommon nutritional supplements and be aware of the complexity of the body when trying to improve your own health. See a doctor if your symptoms persist.
posted by alex3005 at 3:47 PM on February 22, 2006

drpynchon very eloquently brings up a point that I forgot to mention.

The idea behind that certain plants have certain beneficial properties is that different plants produce different varieties of small molcules. These may or may not do anything for the plant itself, but may have certain properties.

Evolutionary theory suggests that plants will produce a variety of small molecules on the off chance that it does something genetically beneficial for the plant (ie., kills plant pathogens like aphids or various bacteria or whatever). If a plant produces a beneficial small molecule, genetic fitness will encourage the persistence of plants that produce said small molecule. Through genetic recombination - either through sex, errors in DNA replication, or built-in mechanisms of genetic mixing - new plants will continue to produce new varieties of small molecules.

It is thought that certain plant may produce small molecules that might have physiological properties - for example, sea sponges produce a small molecule called alpha-gal ceramide. It's not known what it does for the sea sponge (if anything) but it is a potent activator of a population of immune cells called Natural Killer cells. This small molecule binds to a surface protein called CD1d and activates the NK cells. Now, alpha-gal-cer doesn't bind to CD1d in a particularly specific manner, it just kind gloms onto CD1d and is able to induce signal transduction.

It is possible that certain plants have small molecules that may have physiological properties, but there has been no solid research that has figured out what the exact molecule(s) is/are, nor their method of action. Additionally, since you're eating the plant, there is the question of whether these potential small molecules survive the digestion process and whether they accumulate in circulation in sufficient quentities to have any real effect.

As there is some evidence that chronic immune stimulation can cause problems, it'd be prudent - as in just about everything - not to overdo it.

In moderation, the risk of adverse health outcome from drinking smoothies should be low but, of course, the risk is non-zero. Then again, the risk of adverse events from drinking 2 liters of water a day or using cell phones are also non-zero at the population level.
posted by PurplePorpoise at 3:48 PM on February 22, 2006

If I worded my question more specifically and more technically I would have said, "Supposing that anything dietary or consumable other than prescription medications can in any way help, solicit or stimulate the functioning of the immune system, would (or could) the immune system develop a dependency on that substance to function normally whereby without the substance, it digresses into functioning below the average/normal level it was at prior to the introduction of the substance?"

What I am asking about is a specific characteristic of the immune system's functioning, which no one has answered, perhaps because this isn't the right forum or perhaps because I didn't word it well enough. The question I am asking is probably one that is more theoretical than factual in nature, and would probably need to be answered by an immunologist or otherwise someone who's done extensive research on the immune system. I was hoping to find that person, or at least someone with comparable knowledge.

I don't drink the smoothie for my immune system, but because it's a better, balanced source of protein/fiber/carbs and micronutrients than would be, say, a crappy highly-processed sausage biscuit from McDonald's. And I also rarely add a multivitamin capsule.
posted by mojabunni at 4:49 PM on February 22, 2006

I am an immunologist.

I believe that part of the problem is that you might not understand exactly how the immune system work and you're not asking a question that has an answer.

You're immune system is at baseline. If you do anything to augment it, assuming that the immune system is healthy, it should return to baseline because your immune system is tightly self-regulated.

Chronic stimulation of the innate immune system can cause immune defects. If there were immune-stimulating molecules in your diet, there is a possibility that over-doing it may hamper your immune system. However, in practice, this is not a concern.

Old people tend to have less-good adaptive immune system (more difficult to create immune cells against new antigens - there is evidence that it's a matter of "space" for new memory cells) but their innate immune system steps it up a bit. Overall, though, there is a decline in immune function associated with age.

Stressing the adaptive immune system, by say, exposing and activating it to many different antigens may speed up immune decline that may resemble age-associated immune decline.
posted by PurplePorpoise at 5:24 PM on February 22, 2006

alex3005 - you're... inaccurate... about strengthing one weakening the other (humoral vs. cellular). Humoral refers to antibodies while cellular refers to direct cytotoxicity usually via FAS/FASL and/or gramicidin or via the various NK receptors. You can have tons of antibody production yet maintain robust cytoxicity.

The division of immunity is usually along the lines of innate (antigen non-specific) and adaptive (antigen specific) or through Th1 (primarily inflammatory) or Th2 (a little more complicated, but more "immune modulating). Both the innate and adaptive can be functioning at robust levels. Th1 and Th2 are typically polar in that certain conditions will skew the immune response to either Th1 or Th2.
posted by PurplePorpoise at 5:31 PM on February 22, 2006

PurplePorpoise, very well said.
posted by drpynchon at 5:35 PM on February 22, 2006

I believe that part of the problem is that you might not understand exactly how the immune system work and you're not asking a question that has an answer.

Thank you! Finally, this is my answer. That's all I was wondering. Maybe I should have noted that no answer is as good as a specific answer.
posted by mojabunni at 5:42 PM on February 22, 2006

Sorry, my mistake. I meant that TH1 and TH2 are two arms of the immune system and was referring to how interleukins can support one over the other. My memory is fuzzy regarding those concepts and somehow I associated with the TH1/TH2 distinction with the humoral/cell-mediated distinction.

Can't argue with an immunologist. =)
posted by alex3005 at 7:21 PM on February 22, 2006