Repair or replace my aging bicycles? (n-2)
January 31, 2019 3:46 PM Subscribe
I'm a longtime bike commuter in Seattle, but not much of a mechanical expert. I currently have a road bike (carbon fork) and a hardtail mountain bike. Several things have gone wrong on both bikes in recent months, and the annual Seattle bike swap is coming up this weekend. Should I look for parts to fix the issues, or scrap em and jump ship? (snowflakes inside)
Deets:
I don't race, though I've thought about doing cyclocross in the past. I like to ride pretty long distances (50-75 miles) when I can, and commute when I can't (30 miles roundtrip). I've definitely been thinking about doing some bikepacking, but have not felt confident enough in my gear.
Scott Speedster, Carbon Fork. I bought the bike after a short test ride, didn't really know what to look for. Only $350. Assumed the fenders would be easy to source. That wasn't the case - very little gap between the tire and the frame. Had to pay for a custom install, around $100. Local bike shop told me later that the front fork had some cracks around the stem. I've had no issues, but probably should not try to recoup the frame here. The issue that has come up is that the back wheel is breaking spokes. I've been told the wheels are racing wheels of unknown age, and that the weight from the rack I installed (commuter stuff) is putting too much load/tension on the wheels. Replacing the wheels is confusing to me - the cost looks to be about $200 if I do both of them with a standard wheelset (700cc). Many random cyclists are recommending a custom wheel rebuild, and I don't really get the benefit there. This bike has been out of rotation while I agonized about it. Either way, we're approaching the initial cost of the bike itself, and I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to continue to ride it with the structural issues I mentioned.
Trek Hardtail Mountain Bike. This is a good rain bike, and has been my go-to for the last 6 months or so. I've had the bike for 15 years, and done almost nothing to it besides maybe a chain replacement 5 years ago. The front suspension fork has seized, so it's really just a standard hybrid bike. It's slow and heavy as heck, but I never have issues with comfort. Components have been getting stickier,and a rear spoke broke a week or so ago, but I've continued riding as the wheels are more heavy duty (28x1.5). But the same question applies around wheels.
The ask: I'm not a fan of having lots of bikes. Space is at a premium and we're trying to downsize our stuff. However, I also hate throwing stuff away if it's useful. And I tend to prefer getting something cheap and high quality (read: used). But what's the right approach to repairing/upgrading existing parts on these bikes, vs. putting them in the junk heap and getting one bike that checks all my boxes:
> Comfortable for long distances
> good components that just work
> Something that handles more aggressive riding than a hybrid
> Can take fenders + racks for the rain?
> Stretch goal of allowing me to ride on gravel, less technical trails (I'd love to ride the John Wayne trail to Idaho some day).
> Less than $750
Bonus points if you have insider tips for the upcoming Seattle bike swap. Thanks!!!
Deets:
I don't race, though I've thought about doing cyclocross in the past. I like to ride pretty long distances (50-75 miles) when I can, and commute when I can't (30 miles roundtrip). I've definitely been thinking about doing some bikepacking, but have not felt confident enough in my gear.
Scott Speedster, Carbon Fork. I bought the bike after a short test ride, didn't really know what to look for. Only $350. Assumed the fenders would be easy to source. That wasn't the case - very little gap between the tire and the frame. Had to pay for a custom install, around $100. Local bike shop told me later that the front fork had some cracks around the stem. I've had no issues, but probably should not try to recoup the frame here. The issue that has come up is that the back wheel is breaking spokes. I've been told the wheels are racing wheels of unknown age, and that the weight from the rack I installed (commuter stuff) is putting too much load/tension on the wheels. Replacing the wheels is confusing to me - the cost looks to be about $200 if I do both of them with a standard wheelset (700cc). Many random cyclists are recommending a custom wheel rebuild, and I don't really get the benefit there. This bike has been out of rotation while I agonized about it. Either way, we're approaching the initial cost of the bike itself, and I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to continue to ride it with the structural issues I mentioned.
Trek Hardtail Mountain Bike. This is a good rain bike, and has been my go-to for the last 6 months or so. I've had the bike for 15 years, and done almost nothing to it besides maybe a chain replacement 5 years ago. The front suspension fork has seized, so it's really just a standard hybrid bike. It's slow and heavy as heck, but I never have issues with comfort. Components have been getting stickier,and a rear spoke broke a week or so ago, but I've continued riding as the wheels are more heavy duty (28x1.5). But the same question applies around wheels.
The ask: I'm not a fan of having lots of bikes. Space is at a premium and we're trying to downsize our stuff. However, I also hate throwing stuff away if it's useful. And I tend to prefer getting something cheap and high quality (read: used). But what's the right approach to repairing/upgrading existing parts on these bikes, vs. putting them in the junk heap and getting one bike that checks all my boxes:
> Comfortable for long distances
> good components that just work
> Something that handles more aggressive riding than a hybrid
> Can take fenders + racks for the rain?
> Stretch goal of allowing me to ride on gravel, less technical trails (I'd love to ride the John Wayne trail to Idaho some day).
> Less than $750
Bonus points if you have insider tips for the upcoming Seattle bike swap. Thanks!!!
Best answer: - I have a hard time believing that your rack is causing spokes in your rear wheel to break.
- If you've got cracks on a carbon steerer tube, I'd call that a goner. Take the bike to the swap meet so someone can parts it out.
- An emerging segment of the bike market is the gravel bike or all-road bike. This is what you want. Basically a road bike that can take fat tires, is designed for carrying some weight.
- I don't know if it's the right size for you, but if it is, this is your new bike.
Most of the bikes you'll be looking at will have Shimano parts, and you can pretty much rank them by which parts group they carry (Claris < Sora < Tiagra < 105 < Ultegra < Dura Ace). I'm kind of a bike snob, and IMO, Shimano's 105 group is where they get good. A new bike equipped with 105 will run ~$2000, but I've seen late-model used bikes for about half that. It would be worth stretching a little for that, if everything else about the bike is good.
posted by adamrice at 4:30 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
- If you've got cracks on a carbon steerer tube, I'd call that a goner. Take the bike to the swap meet so someone can parts it out.
- An emerging segment of the bike market is the gravel bike or all-road bike. This is what you want. Basically a road bike that can take fat tires, is designed for carrying some weight.
- I don't know if it's the right size for you, but if it is, this is your new bike.
Most of the bikes you'll be looking at will have Shimano parts, and you can pretty much rank them by which parts group they carry (Claris < Sora < Tiagra < 105 < Ultegra < Dura Ace). I'm kind of a bike snob, and IMO, Shimano's 105 group is where they get good. A new bike equipped with 105 will run ~$2000, but I've seen late-model used bikes for about half that. It would be worth stretching a little for that, if everything else about the bike is good.
posted by adamrice at 4:30 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Hardtail MTB is close to my favorite commuter bike. IIWY, I'd fix or replace the rear wheel depending on wheel condition (if it's old with rim brakes, probably just replace) and try to get the front suspension working again. There might not be much to replace the fork with if it's an older bike. I have that issue with a 2000ish hardtail but my front suspension is crappy not broken yet I can't find anything to replace it with that fits without changing the geometry.
The carbon fork on the RB concerns me. Can an expert tell you if it is safe? If yes, I'd replace the rear wheel with something more durable (and likely cheaper than any racing wheels). Many bicycle people are kinda dumb IMO and act like everyone races but that's nonsense. If the fork is suspect, I might replace it or bail on the frame.
Good luck.
posted by jclarkin at 4:32 PM on January 31, 2019
The carbon fork on the RB concerns me. Can an expert tell you if it is safe? If yes, I'd replace the rear wheel with something more durable (and likely cheaper than any racing wheels). Many bicycle people are kinda dumb IMO and act like everyone races but that's nonsense. If the fork is suspect, I might replace it or bail on the frame.
Good luck.
posted by jclarkin at 4:32 PM on January 31, 2019
Oh good lord, treat yourself to a new bike(s) if your budget allows!! You're regularly going on 50-75mi rides on a bike with a compromised carbon fork? You deserve so much better (and safer)!
I also wouldn't consider selling the bike (selling for parts might be ok) since this bike isn't really safe to ride.
Now that you've had some experience riding your old bike, you can take your time to test ride newer bikes to see what feels good to you. You're spending so many hours of your life on bikes - it would be totally worth it to spend some extra time and money to figure out what really feels good.
If I were you, I'd replace the road bike with something you will enjoy riding long distances (new, or at the swap), and get a cyclocross / gravel bike that can double as your gravel / bad-weather bike. Another option would be to just get a set of wheels with thicker / kobbier tires for gravel riding that you can swap onto your road bike for gravel rides.
posted by blueberrypuffin at 4:32 PM on January 31, 2019 [2 favorites]
I also wouldn't consider selling the bike (selling for parts might be ok) since this bike isn't really safe to ride.
Now that you've had some experience riding your old bike, you can take your time to test ride newer bikes to see what feels good to you. You're spending so many hours of your life on bikes - it would be totally worth it to spend some extra time and money to figure out what really feels good.
If I were you, I'd replace the road bike with something you will enjoy riding long distances (new, or at the swap), and get a cyclocross / gravel bike that can double as your gravel / bad-weather bike. Another option would be to just get a set of wheels with thicker / kobbier tires for gravel riding that you can swap onto your road bike for gravel rides.
posted by blueberrypuffin at 4:32 PM on January 31, 2019 [2 favorites]
You didn't mention a size, but I'd snap this one up if it fits, even if the price is a bit higher. Sell both bikes for this:
https://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/bik/d/bremerton-litespeed-t5-gravel-titanium/6807219478.html
A titanium frame, disc brakes, good clearance- it checks all your boxes and then some. Only issue I see from the pix is a lack of fender braze-ons, etc. Your custom fenders from the Scott may fit.
posted by pgoes at 5:00 PM on January 31, 2019 [2 favorites]
https://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/bik/d/bremerton-litespeed-t5-gravel-titanium/6807219478.html
A titanium frame, disc brakes, good clearance- it checks all your boxes and then some. Only issue I see from the pix is a lack of fender braze-ons, etc. Your custom fenders from the Scott may fit.
posted by pgoes at 5:00 PM on January 31, 2019 [2 favorites]
Best answer: The broken spokes are probably caused by poor truing and stress relief. Replacement spokes and a spoke wrench are cheap. You'll need to measure the old spoke's length. If you have a bicycle coop they'll show you how to fix your wheels and lines for nominal cost.
Or count the number of gears on the rear wheels, whether they are rim or disc brakes, and then look in Craigslist for 700c or 28x1.5 wheels. Used wheels can be had for cheap on CL and Ebay.
For your road bike:
https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/bop/d/seattle-road-wheels-shimano-105-dt/6807066402.html
The sticky components are caused by old brake/gear lines. Replacing them is easy and cheap to do with a kit.
In the event, the bikes are old and used enough that you should feel no shame in fire selling them at the swap meet and moving to something new.
posted by pdoege at 5:51 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
Or count the number of gears on the rear wheels, whether they are rim or disc brakes, and then look in Craigslist for 700c or 28x1.5 wheels. Used wheels can be had for cheap on CL and Ebay.
For your road bike:
https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/bop/d/seattle-road-wheels-shimano-105-dt/6807066402.html
The sticky components are caused by old brake/gear lines. Replacing them is easy and cheap to do with a kit.
In the event, the bikes are old and used enough that you should feel no shame in fire selling them at the swap meet and moving to something new.
posted by pdoege at 5:51 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I sell at the Bike Swap every year and if we are talking about the same one (run by Cascade), it’s not until March 10, so you have some time.
Tips:
—Go as early as you can and bring a list. It’s easy to forget what you’re looking for when surrounded by so many people and bike parts.
—Bring a tape measure.
—The consignment area has some great deals and you are usually able to bargain down, try asking for $50-$100 less.
—It’s uncommon to get soooper low garage sale prices because the sellers pretty much know what they have, and remember what they originally paid for it. Bike people are hardly ever selling at a profit.
—Good wheelsets sell fast, shop for those first.
—If you do find a bike you want to buy, make sure you inspect the entire frame and wheels for cracks, in good light.
—Have fun and support the scene!
posted by oxisos at 5:54 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
Tips:
—Go as early as you can and bring a list. It’s easy to forget what you’re looking for when surrounded by so many people and bike parts.
—Bring a tape measure.
—The consignment area has some great deals and you are usually able to bargain down, try asking for $50-$100 less.
—It’s uncommon to get soooper low garage sale prices because the sellers pretty much know what they have, and remember what they originally paid for it. Bike people are hardly ever selling at a profit.
—Good wheelsets sell fast, shop for those first.
—If you do find a bike you want to buy, make sure you inspect the entire frame and wheels for cracks, in good light.
—Have fun and support the scene!
posted by oxisos at 5:54 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You mention cyclocross. They make excellent all around bikes. They're good for off-road, on, commuting, and touring. Here's mine in May setting off to Florida from Seattle (And in Montana, and North Dakota, and Tennessee…). It's just a basic Bianchi Volpé, vintage 2010. A quick in-the-head tally of average mileage per year tells me it's well over 30,000 miles on it by now, and going strong.
It started off bog standard, and I first tweaked it to better commute, then accreted the gear over the years to allow for touring. It's a very well-rounded steed. I've taken it on the John Wayne/Iron Horse multiple times now, most recently that cross-country trip I mentioned. Rode it to Cle Elum before switching to paved roads.
Don't get your hopes up for riding the Iron Horse to Idaho though, not any time soon anyway. The trail rapidly goes downhill as you pass the Cascades, and by the time you reach Cle Elum is already getting pretty soft. I was riding on 38mm tires and was very glad to get off. Out past Ellensburg, IIRC, it degrades to railroad ballast. I think funding is coming together to improve it, but no doubt that'll take a bit of time.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 6:31 PM on January 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
It started off bog standard, and I first tweaked it to better commute, then accreted the gear over the years to allow for touring. It's a very well-rounded steed. I've taken it on the John Wayne/Iron Horse multiple times now, most recently that cross-country trip I mentioned. Rode it to Cle Elum before switching to paved roads.
Don't get your hopes up for riding the Iron Horse to Idaho though, not any time soon anyway. The trail rapidly goes downhill as you pass the Cascades, and by the time you reach Cle Elum is already getting pretty soft. I was riding on 38mm tires and was very glad to get off. Out past Ellensburg, IIRC, it degrades to railroad ballast. I think funding is coming together to improve it, but no doubt that'll take a bit of time.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 6:31 PM on January 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
Best answer: If you've cracked the stem and you're breaking spokes, then you've been over-loading your road bike. Maybe you're heavier than a lot of road riders? I know I am - so carbon & race-oriented wheels are not a great fit for me. Cracked carbon or alu is a potentially fatal accident that's just waiting to happen. Don't ride it. A good steel frame can outlive several sets of wheels, and if you had one it would be worth your while to replace e.g. with custom-built wheels. But for your current road bike, it's 100% a waste of money, don't go there.
So, toss both the bikes that you've got, and invest in a decent, lightly-used gravel / cross bike. That's basically the mid-point between the two bikes you have now, and it'll do a better job than either.
When you've got your shiny new (to you) bike & you've fallen in love with it, make sure you keep up to date with preventive maintenance. Some lube & a spoke key will save you from an awful lot of future hassle.
posted by rd45 at 2:37 AM on February 1, 2019
So, toss both the bikes that you've got, and invest in a decent, lightly-used gravel / cross bike. That's basically the mid-point between the two bikes you have now, and it'll do a better job than either.
When you've got your shiny new (to you) bike & you've fallen in love with it, make sure you keep up to date with preventive maintenance. Some lube & a spoke key will save you from an awful lot of future hassle.
posted by rd45 at 2:37 AM on February 1, 2019
Best answer: The Speedster is a roadie frame; it's not surprising it's got no room for fenders or wider tires.
Wheels wear out -- metal fatigue, rough treatment, etc. That's a thing. When you buy wheels, you basically get to pick a point on a continuum of "durable" to "light". This correlates highly with the related continuum of "cheap" to "holy SHIT". Your rack is NOT why those wheels are failing, but it's also moot.
If you wanted a all-arounder bike, $750 new is a hard price point, but it's possible used. Basically anything from Surly is a GREAT call here -- bombproof steel frames, mount points for racks & etc, lots of flexibility, still capable of speed if you want while retaining ability to do mild offroading, etc. I have a Cross-Check from them, and I love it still even though I'm mostly a go-fast hair-on-fire dude these days (ie, riding a carbon bike).
(Another great option, as noted by adamrice, is that Specialized Diverge -- I have friends who have those, and they're great for gravel AND longer road rides, even at roadie paces.)
(If you're going to do LOTS of offroad stuff, you might want to keep two sets of wheels -- one with knobby tires, for dirt & gravel, and another set of slicks for the road; many folks do this.)
Your generalized problem domain suggests to ME that you might want to divest yourself of both existing bikes and shoot at a newer platform that can do it all. Be aware, though, that a little maintenance will go a long way -- chains probably oughta be changed every 2500-3000 miles, and cleaned with some frequency. This makes other, more expensive parts last longer.
posted by uberchet at 7:05 AM on February 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Wheels wear out -- metal fatigue, rough treatment, etc. That's a thing. When you buy wheels, you basically get to pick a point on a continuum of "durable" to "light". This correlates highly with the related continuum of "cheap" to "holy SHIT". Your rack is NOT why those wheels are failing, but it's also moot.
If you wanted a all-arounder bike, $750 new is a hard price point, but it's possible used. Basically anything from Surly is a GREAT call here -- bombproof steel frames, mount points for racks & etc, lots of flexibility, still capable of speed if you want while retaining ability to do mild offroading, etc. I have a Cross-Check from them, and I love it still even though I'm mostly a go-fast hair-on-fire dude these days (ie, riding a carbon bike).
(Another great option, as noted by adamrice, is that Specialized Diverge -- I have friends who have those, and they're great for gravel AND longer road rides, even at roadie paces.)
(If you're going to do LOTS of offroad stuff, you might want to keep two sets of wheels -- one with knobby tires, for dirt & gravel, and another set of slicks for the road; many folks do this.)
Your generalized problem domain suggests to ME that you might want to divest yourself of both existing bikes and shoot at a newer platform that can do it all. Be aware, though, that a little maintenance will go a long way -- chains probably oughta be changed every 2500-3000 miles, and cleaned with some frequency. This makes other, more expensive parts last longer.
posted by uberchet at 7:05 AM on February 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
If you haven't tried many purpose-built commuter/city bikes, you might be surprised at how pleasant they can be to ride (and how pleasant it is not to have to add every component that makes them work well for practical transportation yourself.)
There's a lot to be said for a bike that already comes with fenders, rack, dynamo lights, an enclosed chaincase or belt drive, an internal-geared hub, etc. A bike that's perfect for your primary use case, the use you're already putting your bikes to, might be a better choice than a bike that's merely fine for it and fine for another use you're just thinking about doing more of.
posted by asperity at 7:44 AM on February 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
There's a lot to be said for a bike that already comes with fenders, rack, dynamo lights, an enclosed chaincase or belt drive, an internal-geared hub, etc. A bike that's perfect for your primary use case, the use you're already putting your bikes to, might be a better choice than a bike that's merely fine for it and fine for another use you're just thinking about doing more of.
posted by asperity at 7:44 AM on February 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
(A city bike would be a very poor choice for gravel or bikepacking.)
posted by uberchet at 7:52 AM on February 1, 2019
posted by uberchet at 7:52 AM on February 1, 2019
Best answer: It sounds to me like you want a drop-bar touring bike. Comfortable for long rides, able to carry a lot of weight on the racks, wheels with a million spokes for weight-bearing will also stand up to going off a curb or two, and with drop bars you can get low and put the hammer down when you want to.
The surly long-haul trucker/disc trucker is the gold standard touring bike, but it is extremely heavy. If you're not going to ride it to Patagonia I'd look at a lighter weight touring bike; I commute on a Novara randonee and am perfectly happy with it, though it definitely doesn't feel as fast or sporty as a road bike or gravel bike.
posted by agentofselection at 6:18 PM on February 1, 2019
The surly long-haul trucker/disc trucker is the gold standard touring bike, but it is extremely heavy. If you're not going to ride it to Patagonia I'd look at a lighter weight touring bike; I commute on a Novara randonee and am perfectly happy with it, though it definitely doesn't feel as fast or sporty as a road bike or gravel bike.
posted by agentofselection at 6:18 PM on February 1, 2019
Response by poster: So many great answers here - no one post hit all the notes I hoped to hear, but there were a lot of things I needed to hear. Thanks to adamrice for the steerer tube assessment. I generally trust my LBS, but they were kinda vague about the risk.
For future searchers on this topic, yes maintenance is important. I do a much better job than I did ten years ago, but use your local bike shop (LBS) for up-leveling your maintenance skills. Ask em questions. For me, this means cleaning the chain/drivetrain at least once a month, lubing the chain every couple of weeks, cleaning the rims as needed, and checking the air in the tires before every ride. A couple of comments in here remind me that I had the repair class from Bikeworks on my bucket list. I just adjusted the brake cable tension without issue; and I did do the cable replacement for my rear drivetrain last month and it wasn't bad, but I didn't quite get the tension right tying it off and needed my LBS to get me across the finish line. (NO CHARGE!!)
As far as spokes, a couple of additional comments - this bike was clearly owned by several owners, and the cracked steering tube should be a clue that someone was using it overaggressively, or was overweight. The wheels themselves are racing wheels, something I should have mentioned. Like half the normal number of spokes. I broke one after another after another. Each time the LBS would replace the spoke and redo the tension. After the third or fourth, the guy told me I probably needed a rebuild.
I'm classic "small but likes cupcakes" cyclist body, so weight is not my problem. But running single panniers with 20 lbs of gear or groceries on the back was too much. It could have even been the uneven loads runnning a single rear pannier, creating side to side tension
I'm right where I was before on the next bike to get, but I heard a lot of support for cyclocross/gravel bikes, which is likely where I'm headed. A steel touring bike would be interesting and probably push me toward some longer rides, but I don't think I want the daily hill tax for a standard commute in Seattle. I'm a fan of the Surly brand, but haven't tried them yet, so I probably need to get a couple of test rides in before the swap.
No idea how I managed to read the swap's March 10 date as February 3, but I did. Glad to have more time to research. Thanks again for all the thoughtfulness here!
posted by SoundInhabitant at 12:38 PM on February 3, 2019
For future searchers on this topic, yes maintenance is important. I do a much better job than I did ten years ago, but use your local bike shop (LBS) for up-leveling your maintenance skills. Ask em questions. For me, this means cleaning the chain/drivetrain at least once a month, lubing the chain every couple of weeks, cleaning the rims as needed, and checking the air in the tires before every ride. A couple of comments in here remind me that I had the repair class from Bikeworks on my bucket list. I just adjusted the brake cable tension without issue; and I did do the cable replacement for my rear drivetrain last month and it wasn't bad, but I didn't quite get the tension right tying it off and needed my LBS to get me across the finish line. (NO CHARGE!!)
As far as spokes, a couple of additional comments - this bike was clearly owned by several owners, and the cracked steering tube should be a clue that someone was using it overaggressively, or was overweight. The wheels themselves are racing wheels, something I should have mentioned. Like half the normal number of spokes. I broke one after another after another. Each time the LBS would replace the spoke and redo the tension. After the third or fourth, the guy told me I probably needed a rebuild.
I'm classic "small but likes cupcakes" cyclist body, so weight is not my problem. But running single panniers with 20 lbs of gear or groceries on the back was too much. It could have even been the uneven loads runnning a single rear pannier, creating side to side tension
I'm right where I was before on the next bike to get, but I heard a lot of support for cyclocross/gravel bikes, which is likely where I'm headed. A steel touring bike would be interesting and probably push me toward some longer rides, but I don't think I want the daily hill tax for a standard commute in Seattle. I'm a fan of the Surly brand, but haven't tried them yet, so I probably need to get a couple of test rides in before the swap.
No idea how I managed to read the swap's March 10 date as February 3, but I did. Glad to have more time to research. Thanks again for all the thoughtfulness here!
posted by SoundInhabitant at 12:38 PM on February 3, 2019
Response by poster: Oh, and to not abuse the edit window, I will probably sell/parts/donate both bikes and get a single new bike. I don't plan to sell the road frame/front fork without being clear about the steering tube damage.
posted by SoundInhabitant at 12:41 PM on February 3, 2019
posted by SoundInhabitant at 12:41 PM on February 3, 2019
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posted by rockindata at 4:15 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]