How to build your own Atlantis.

February 18, 2006 9:50 PM

So i was kicking the old peanut around and wondered if anyone else ever thought about getting some old oil tankers and converting them into a floating nation.

I was thinking about charging people to live on the thing, maybe 1-10 grand us dollars(and everyone on board has to have some skill they bring to the "nation"). grow food on the top, make the whole thing wind and solar powered also maybe set up some large sails (maybe make the sails covered in solar panels) then convert the lower decks into science research/tourist/living quarters. also use a large portion of the hold as cargo and use it to make extra money humping large amounts of stuff to countries that don't care if you get there slowly but cheaply. also possibly using wave capture devices to harvest even more energy. it could always be parked in international waters (using a large container ship to dock at port) so it would literally be its own nation. has anything like this been done before, has anyone ever tried it, what are the laws involved, could we do this and host mefi from the ocean using large satellites? how do you get your hands on an old oil tanker or two, how do you deal with pirates, etc. who's with me.

posted by stilgar to law & government (45 comments total)

How do you plan to defend your nation from hostile takeover?
posted by b1tr0t at 9:51 PM on February 18, 2006

good point...guess we could just budy up to a larger nation and have them help us to be defended, or be neutral and try to keep out of trouble. one of many things that need to worked out...which i guess is why i need askmefi
posted by stilgar at 10:01 PM on February 18, 2006

L. Bob Rife?
posted by duende at 10:02 PM on February 18, 2006

oi can droive thayt taynkah!

um.. seriously though... you'd have to either figure out a way to create a self contained ecosystem for farming, or to maintain a trade line with an actual nation, which would require money or goods, which makes this whole thing pretty darn challenging...

the only time i've heard of a whole group of people living on boats is the scientology yacht.

Hmmmm...
posted by twiggy at 10:03 PM on February 18, 2006

See also: Sealand
posted by duende at 10:07 PM on February 18, 2006

Find a copy of How to Start Your Own Country by Erwin Strauss. Despite the title it's not a manual so much as a catalog of various attempts, some more serious than others, to start new countries (known, in the trade, as it were, as micronations) over the last hundred years or so. Some of the attempts he mentions involved boats, though none seem to have been very successful. There's also a book about self-sufficient yacht living (with hydroponic farming for food, etc.) called Sailing the Farm which could be interesting, though it's oriented toward individuals rather than large groups.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 10:09 PM on February 18, 2006

Wasn't this done in a Neal Stevenson novel? Or does my memory fail me?
posted by Rubber Soul at 10:14 PM on February 18, 2006

RS: You're thinking of Snow Crash, wasn't really an attempt at nation building as much as refugee transportation.
posted by nenequesadilla at 10:31 PM on February 18, 2006

Well, as I mentioned in the thread, you have a few options for defending your ship. The best advice, though, is avoidance - stay the hell away from Indonesia and the non-Mediterranean African coast.

When avoidance fails, though, here's some options from high to low:

Phalanx CIWS: basically 20mm gatling gun with radar, the latest versions use forward-looking infrared to engage surface targets, which is what you need. The two big reasons to go with this are unit cost versus other major CIWS systems (only several million dollars, which is the least of your concerns after buying an oil tanker), and the zero deck-penetration requirement. You can weld them pretty much anywhere on the topside - the US Army even fields a version mounted on a flatbed. Remember the uber-guns from Snowcrash that operated from the carrier in wrath-of-God mode for peacekeeping? That was one of these. Getting your hands on one of these and the ammo for them is an exercise left to the reader - but if you've got the tanker in the first place this is not your most difficult problem.

For small arms you'll want a mixture of three different weapon types:

M134: gatling gun which is chambered in super-cheap 7.62x51mm (standard NATO round until Vietnam, now used primarily in sniper rifles and the larger man-portable machineguns). The extremely high fire rate is perfect for targeting small boats in choppy waters, since it operates more like a continuous stream of lead than punctuated bursts at a moving target. You can see a video of this weapon in operation in this Metafilter post.

M2HB: the classic .50 cal machine gun is still going strong after 85 years since its invention. Firing rate is a little low for what you'll need, but at $14,000 unit cost, extremely cheap and available ammo, 800m range (at worst), and the fact that of all the guns listed here this is by far the easiest to get your hands on, this is pretty much a no-brainer. Unlike the above two, this one is purely a mechanical device - no electricity needed, just add bullets. Axial mounts on the railings are perfect for getting anything that slips through your other coverage and you can't get an angle on with the other weapons.

H&K GMG: a good full-auto 40mm grenade launcher is exactly what you need to add a little explosive firepower when clearing the decks of slightly larger oncoming ships. 5m lethal radius, 15m casualty radius, six rounds a second. These are pretty rare so you might try subbing out for a Mk19 or the Russian version thereof.

Other, non-mounted small arms are at the discretion of the reader.
posted by Ryvar at 10:39 PM on February 18, 2006

Ah, here we go - AGS-17, 30mm Russian automatic grenade launcher. Might be easier to acquire than the GMG or Mk19.
posted by Ryvar at 10:47 PM on February 18, 2006

When capitalism falls (why else do we need a floating nation?) and weapons manufacturing is a black market enterprise how will we purchase/make bullets for our guns?

Can I get an invite to the nation before mass anarchy hits here?
posted by soviet sleepover at 10:59 PM on February 18, 2006

The 7.62x51mm and 12.7x99mm (.50cal) are doable in a fairly amateur setup, soviet. The grenades and 20mm rounds are not.
posted by Ryvar at 11:02 PM on February 18, 2006

With double hull regulations for oil tankers becoming ever more important for most countries getting oil supply via tanker, you should find a ready availability of old single hull vessels over the next few years. At least, until the breakers get them. But you want to think a bit before setting up shop in old single hull tankers, as you may not be so easily able to find help if you have trouble at sea.
posted by paulsc at 11:06 PM on February 18, 2006

Such a thing could be done, if you had a few spare billions of dollars.

However, if you had that money, I'm sure you could think of more practical uses.
posted by delmoi at 11:31 PM on February 18, 2006

My impression is that politics is what makes a nation state. If you can get either some big countries, or the geographically nearest countries, to officially recognise you as an independant state, then you're well on your way. If you can't, then making all the passports, currency, and other trappings of country won't help.

Check out the Principality of Sealand for someone trying to create a micronation in international waters.

One hitch - don't use oil-tankers. I can't remember the exact figures, but their seaworthiness does not last long (30 years?), and they will get to the point where you just can't repair them - there isn't but rust left, and they simply break apart underneath you. (This is how some oil slicks happen - a tanker simply comes apart at sea as companys use the tankers right up to the limit of their seaworthiness and sometimes beyond).
So you want some structure designed to be repairable or replaceable (modular sections?) and able to withstand the unrelenting force and corrosion of the ocean for decades. A tanker would be a start, but it could only be temporary.

Most problems can be solved by vast amounts of money or influence. Thus, to solve all of the above, you could aim to attract the super-rich.

Rather than making a micronation, it might be better to set the sights a little lower to begin with, and just make it a twist on the cruise ship - a place where people go to do all those things that are illegal in their country (pot, gambling, whatever). OTOH, depending on what you allow, you could get a pretty unsavory crowd. Or a very wealthy one.

So... floating hippie commune, or cocaine casino? :-)

Either way, I think geeks are probably the most attracted to this sort of thing. And geeks can telecommute, meaning you don't need to be an independant state to have a decent economy earning lots of dosh.

Of course, the idea of a floating tech-worker sweatshop just off to the coast of the USA but just out of reach of US labour laws is already floating about :)
posted by -harlequin- at 11:59 PM on February 18, 2006

Problem with attracting geeks: ping time. Latency of satellite Internet is obscene. Is there some way to use low-frequency radio to get around the lack of cables?
posted by Ryvar at 12:07 AM on February 19, 2006

Ryvar:
Interesting point. It would mean staying in one location, but if there was enough money behind it, you might be able to buy a tap into one of the ocean floor fibre cables.

Sealand's method of earning an income was an interesting one (basically a high security ISP that would shut down your site and hand over your logs to the first private investigator who waltzed in, like normal ISPs and websites do), however it looks like it fell apart due to being less than the highly funded professional operation it was aiming to be. The idea remains a potentially good one, but once again, hinges on bandwidth.
posted by -harlequin- at 12:25 AM on February 19, 2006

The're working on it.
posted by adamvasco at 12:30 AM on February 19, 2006

"basically a high security ISP that wouldn't shut down your site". Oops.
posted by -harlequin- at 12:41 AM on February 19, 2006

Another existing alternative (to adamvasco's point) would be ResidenSea, who manage The World, a floating "resort community". You can rent or buy apartments on the ship, for varying amounts (I seem to recall that seven figures was a decent starting point).

Maybe this is a little more classy than you were thinking, but it shows that there's something of a market for it. There are probably all sorts of tax advantages of living on a ship that sails under a Bahamian flag [PDF].
posted by lowlife at 9:29 AM on February 19, 2006

hmm maybe people could bring there own ships and attach them to the collective, then when one ship starts to get so you can repair you scrap it and use the money to fix the others...there are so many options and all these links are awesome, i am going to keep all this for the invevitable floating techno paradise.
posted by stilgar at 9:45 AM on February 19, 2006

i am not big into weapons, if i was in charge of this place i would make them a no go on the ship, i think like you said avoidance is the best way to go here, as well as recognized sovernty from nations with armies. i cant really see any two bit speed boat pirate being able to board something the size of an oil super tanker. they would need fucking harpoon guns with grappling hooks. i think our best weapon would be highly maneuverable deck cranes that could drop large amounts of heavy scrap metal on any ship that is docked against us.
posted by stilgar at 9:49 AM on February 19, 2006

This was sort of done in Christopher Brookmyre's One Fine Day in the Middle of the Night, except it was an oil rig which was turned into a resort.
posted by biscotti at 9:52 AM on February 19, 2006

stilgar you REALLY need to read Snowcrash. In it this evil American monopolist lashed together a massive oil tanker and decommisioned aircraft carrier, went to Indonesia/India and picked up tens of thousands of refugees, let the current pull 'the Raft' to the coast of California, where they all went ashore using small craft, eventually providing him with massive amounts cheap labor (amongst other things, not gonna give it away). Eventually it grew into an island of lashed-together boats rife with naval piracy, murder, rape, etc. A floating Mogadishu of sorts, with the CIWS guns on the carrier preventing any riots/real warfare from breaking out. Sort of an anti-utopian version of what you're talking about.

It's a cool idea, sure, but the logistical problems are legion, and there are probably better ways to achieve a similar end.
posted by Ryvar at 9:52 AM on February 19, 2006

ryvar i have read all of neal's books, i was more interested in how this would be done in real life, and what i am most concerned about is what kind of legal issues are there, would other nations let you do this, i figure if one person did it a whole lot of people would, its really the only way without a war to get your own nation left on the planet.
posted by stilgar at 9:59 AM on February 19, 2006

Don't forget that Atlantis eventually sank...
posted by autojack at 10:01 AM on February 19, 2006

There is some cool oil tanker hacking in Islands in the Net by Bruce Sterling.
posted by grex at 10:10 AM on February 19, 2006

ryvar i have read all of neal's books, i was more interested in how this would be done in real life, and what i am most concerned about is what kind of legal issues are there, would other nations let you do this, i figure if one person did it a whole lot of people would, its really the only way without a war to get your own nation left on the planet.

Well, from what I understand the legal issues are pretty minor. I mean, the laws of the seas havn't changed much in the past 200 years, it's pretty much anachy out there, and each ship is bound by the laws of the nation of whatever flag it flies.

Now, I'm assuming various countries have diffrent definitions of 'seaworthyness' but you'll probably be able to find one that would sign off on such a boat.

(I mean really what you're doing is no diffrent then a cruse company does)
posted by delmoi at 10:33 AM on February 19, 2006

delmoi i guess your right, but i would eventualy think this place would get its own UN rep and so on and so forth, so a little more involved than just a cruise ship.
posted by stilgar at 10:35 AM on February 19, 2006

stilgar, I think what it comes down to is that there's no particular reason for any nation to recognize you as a nation instead of just some guys in boats. Some nations, such as the nation you previously paid taxes to, may have a motivation not to recognize you.

Also, unless you're a floating slum, you'll be richer than most of the world's population. Once you've rejected the laws of your your host country, why shouldn't some guys with guns and knives come over and take your stuff?
posted by hattifattener at 10:39 AM on February 19, 2006

very good points hattifattener i guess this is what happens with nations now and days *cough* irag war *cough* so it would be even easier if we were on boats in the middle of no place. could we instead be an international corperation incorperated "on the boat" i dont know it seems like such a neat idea, for it not to work out.
posted by stilgar at 10:53 AM on February 19, 2006

*cough* i cant spell iraq *cough*
posted by stilgar at 10:54 AM on February 19, 2006

You mean like this?
posted by Miko at 10:55 AM on February 19, 2006

See also the Log-Jam in Banks' Against A Dark Background.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:36 AM on February 19, 2006

Back during the California recall election, one of the development engineers in my school's cleanroom ran for Governor of California on the platform of making a floating island in the Pacific for every person on Earth. Sadly, he lost to some Austrian actor and his campaign page is no longer there.

I found it on the Internet Archive: Archive of www.oceanchinampa.com, which was Neil Baker's campaign website for governor of California. Sadly, the (really great) pictures don't show up anymore.
posted by JMOZ at 1:15 PM on February 19, 2006

could we instead be an international corperation incorperated "on the boat" i dont know it seems like such a neat idea, for it not to work out.

Corporations are sanctioned by nations, so how do you plan to have a corporation that isn't? Pieces of paper mean nothing. You need to get protection somewhere, but you have to come up with a way to pay for it. If you want to live on a boat in a low-tax area, just buy a houseboat in Seattle. Washington does not have personal income tax, and the corporate tax rate is very low. If Washington isn't sunny enough for you, try Texas.
posted by b1tr0t at 1:44 PM on February 19, 2006

First off, you will have no chances of being recognized as a micronation unless you don't float around. You can't move your national borders and the surrounding ocean territory that your nation will claim as it's own around. That just won't work. That would be like the US occasionally claiming parts of Canada, and occasionally not claiming them.

This can create alot of problems, but does have good points. You'll need to find a location that is relatively free of major storms. So rule out a large part of the Atlantic. Hurricanes will do major damage to your floating barge nation. The good news is you can park close to a friendly nation and get some form of protection.

And you will indeed need it. With the idea of it being a haven for rich people who don't want to pay incredible taxes and such, there will be a wealth of materials on board that will attract alot of bad people. Some of those might even be smaller nations willing to attack in force. If you arn't allied with any large nation at all, their will be nothing to stop them from doing so.

You'd have much better luck, and profitiability, if you were somehow able to setup a smallish area in the Mediteranean Sea. There are lots of rich people about, and you won't have to deal with alot of the complexities in the middle of the ocean. You could ally yourself with the EU and probably be somewhat succsesfull as a floating resort, refueling, and docking station. I'm not sure how comfortable it would be right now with the tension in the Middle East, but if you could build up enough of a client list with both wealthy Arabs and Europeans, you'd probably stay pretty safe from any conflicts as nobody will want their favorite resort damaged. The bad part is security will be more difficult with the larger amounts of boat traffic.
posted by Phynix at 2:31 PM on February 19, 2006

Bah, forgot to spellcheck before I posted. Sorries. ;)
posted by Phynix at 2:32 PM on February 19, 2006

See The Scar by Mieville for a city built of ships.
posted by By The Grace of God at 2:49 PM on February 19, 2006

This is a fantastic idea. It sorta reminds me of the Beach. . I think we have to rule out that it would be a nation, At least early on.

I agree with others that the fundamental problem with this is security. Even if it isn't a wealthy floating community, it would still be very valuable for pirates to take over. You could arm the people of the community, but that opens a whole new can of worms. I would probably hire a mercenary security force (problem: how would we protect against a coup), these guys are well armed, and you can just fire them when you have figured out your economy and can start your own police force. If there is a large community of tech people maybe they could innovate some new technology or service that other nations could need. That way it would be in other countries best interest to offer you protection. But that quid pro quo stuff could cause some problems, we don't need the US sticking their dirty hands too far into the operation.

Farming could be done quite easily in the bottom of the ship using hydroponics.
posted by buzbomb at 2:53 PM on February 19, 2006

This idea has been attempted numerous times by numerous people over the years with no success. My family was actually deeply involved in the establishment of Taluga. These attempts generally results in capture, capsize or abandonment. You will be unable to locate yourself within the territorial waters of any nation and attempt to declare sovereignty. This will extend to nearly any position loacted upon a continental shelf. You will then find it very difficult to find a location for fixed anchorage.

As a floating vessel you will also be required to remain clear of shipping channels and fishing locations. You will also be subject to international maritime law. So any high profile illegal activity will be dealt with by the nearest local authority of reasonable military strength. If you are planning on active defense of outside invasion, keep in mind any submarine or gunship could sink you without flinching.

For a more detailed examination of these attempts see Menefee's writeup on several attempts to do just this. I also have more information on Taluga that I can make available if anybody would like.
posted by arruns at 4:07 PM on February 19, 2006

A failed attempt was oceania. I see Miko links to this. I bought a flag when it was fundraising. The FAQ is still available, but the founder has given up. This was an attempt at a libertarian nation. They started with a detailed constitution. If you are curious what a libertarian thinks is utopia, then here is a detailed accounting.
posted by gearspring at 6:45 PM on February 19, 2006

I believe Bruce Sterling also wrote a short story where related events transpired. Green Days in Brunei, I believe. At any rate, these really cheap but sturdy catamarans with greenhouses on top are built and lead to a sort of green revolution. Neat idea.
posted by geekhorde at 8:30 PM on February 19, 2006

from reading all these really interesting links, (thanks people) i am more and more leading toward small scale, perhaps personal solar powered submarines, you would surface to gather sunlight for the batteries, power your hydroponics areas, etc. then when bad weather came around the whole thing just sinks down a couple hundred feet, and your fine. then you more or less form a collective with hundreds (thousands maybe) of these things where you are a "collective" and you trade within the collective sharing goods and services, non-collective members could hire the collective to do things, perhaps all members would be tech oriented and we would use a distributed process approach to do things that are currently off shored. (tech service, call centers, web programing, prototyping etc) but we wouldn't have anyone to pay taxes to, and because we all work on these things we could be fast and cheap...more and more i think the tech just isn't ready for this idea, if we ever get a system by which things can be "grown" quickly (using hacked plants/nano) people will start to colonize the oceans very fast. but keep up the good ideas.
posted by stilgar at 8:41 AM on February 20, 2006

Re: the problems of being taken over by pirates, why not just start out as a pirate collective in the first place? Don't attrack the wealthy, attract the "Soldier of fortune" subscribers who are itching for a chance to use their mail-ordered para-military gear on real live humans. As long as you don't attack ships and stuff, nations won't bother you. A human cesspit, you could be funded as an alternative to the death sentence - banishment. :-)

Make it "Road Warrier" at sea. Err... I guess that would make it "Waterworld" :)

Actually, I like your solar submarine idea better. Shades of 20,000 leagues :)
posted by -harlequin- at 9:03 PM on February 24, 2006