I was uncomfortable, but I couldn't say why. Help me figure this out!
October 29, 2018 8:45 AM Subscribe
I declined a job reference letter request from a former mentor. I couldn't fully articulate why at that time (or they wouldn't listen, I can't tell). This bothers me. Please give me your take from outside of my own brain.
Let's say I studied the art of basketweaving with former mentor and basketweaver, Bob, for four years as an undergraduate.
My last basketweaving lesson was 11 years ago. I have since abandoned the practice of basketweaving and have instead gotten a PhD in the humanities. I recently got and started an academic job in a department adjacent to basketweaving.
Bob left the unviersity world shortly after I graduated, and has been a practicing basketweaver working in the industry. We sort of stayed in touch. Recently he told me that he's applying for an assitant professorship in basketweaving, and asked me to write a letter of recommendation.
I felt uneasy, and told him as much: despite my current job, I have no professional credential in basketweaving. I can't assess his skills and abilities as a basketweaver, let alone his place in the world of basketweaving. I have never interacted with Bob as an equal colleague-- anything I could have said about him was mediated by our old, asymmetrical mentor-mentee dynamic, and I feel icky about putting that in a letter of recommendation where I'm assumed to be appraising him as a colleague.* I actually have no doubt that Bob will be an amazing basketweaving professor, and I can't fully articulate why, but I somehow feel it would be dishonest for some reason, and I also feel kind of coerced.
Bob said that he wanted precisely a former student's perspective and that I should write as a former student rather than a colleague. I thought my letter should then be part of his teaching portfolio and with the other student evaluations. I found it difficult to agree with him that it's good strategic play to have a reference letter from a former student.
In the end I said no to Bob who was trying very hard to convince me. I have lots of very guilty feelings. I still can't parse out what happened , though. Was I a self-preserving jerk? Is there any chance he was right about a letter of rec from a former student? What do you think?
Let's say I studied the art of basketweaving with former mentor and basketweaver, Bob, for four years as an undergraduate.
My last basketweaving lesson was 11 years ago. I have since abandoned the practice of basketweaving and have instead gotten a PhD in the humanities. I recently got and started an academic job in a department adjacent to basketweaving.
Bob left the unviersity world shortly after I graduated, and has been a practicing basketweaver working in the industry. We sort of stayed in touch. Recently he told me that he's applying for an assitant professorship in basketweaving, and asked me to write a letter of recommendation.
I felt uneasy, and told him as much: despite my current job, I have no professional credential in basketweaving. I can't assess his skills and abilities as a basketweaver, let alone his place in the world of basketweaving. I have never interacted with Bob as an equal colleague-- anything I could have said about him was mediated by our old, asymmetrical mentor-mentee dynamic, and I feel icky about putting that in a letter of recommendation where I'm assumed to be appraising him as a colleague.* I actually have no doubt that Bob will be an amazing basketweaving professor, and I can't fully articulate why, but I somehow feel it would be dishonest for some reason, and I also feel kind of coerced.
Bob said that he wanted precisely a former student's perspective and that I should write as a former student rather than a colleague. I thought my letter should then be part of his teaching portfolio and with the other student evaluations. I found it difficult to agree with him that it's good strategic play to have a reference letter from a former student.
In the end I said no to Bob who was trying very hard to convince me. I have lots of very guilty feelings. I still can't parse out what happened , though. Was I a self-preserving jerk? Is there any chance he was right about a letter of rec from a former student? What do you think?
You don't need justification not to do something. Trust your instincts. If he was good at mentoring/teaching, then he must have plenty of former mentees and students and subordinates and suchlike who can write him recommendations with no reservations.
"No" is a complete sentence.
posted by Etrigan at 9:03 AM on October 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
"No" is a complete sentence.
posted by Etrigan at 9:03 AM on October 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
You feel uneasy because you declined to help someone who had helped you. You probably shouldn't. It's a strange request for him to make, and it's not like he mentored you with the expectation he'd get something from you in return. But there's a debt of gratitude for his earlier assistance, and this was an opportunity to settle that balance.
From the way you've told the story, it kind of sounds like Bob doesn't have many other options. If that's the case, you might feel some (undeserved) guilt over the fact that he isn't likely to get the job.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:05 AM on October 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
From the way you've told the story, it kind of sounds like Bob doesn't have many other options. If that's the case, you might feel some (undeserved) guilt over the fact that he isn't likely to get the job.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:05 AM on October 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
So, you definitely shouldn't feel you have to do anything you feel uncomfortable about doing. That's fine.
However, assuming basic literacy on the part of the people hiring Bob, it would be perfectly obvious that you were writing as a former student with respect to a teaching job. I mean, honestly:
I feel icky about putting that in a letter of recommendation where I'm assumed to be appraising him as a colleague
Do you actually think the hiring committee is too stupid to understand that you are writing as a former student, especially as you are very obviously not a basketweaver? I am just baffled by this line of thinking.
posted by praemunire at 9:08 AM on October 29, 2018 [48 favorites]
However, assuming basic literacy on the part of the people hiring Bob, it would be perfectly obvious that you were writing as a former student with respect to a teaching job. I mean, honestly:
I feel icky about putting that in a letter of recommendation where I'm assumed to be appraising him as a colleague
Do you actually think the hiring committee is too stupid to understand that you are writing as a former student, especially as you are very obviously not a basketweaver? I am just baffled by this line of thinking.
posted by praemunire at 9:08 AM on October 29, 2018 [48 favorites]
I feel like the responsibility is on Bob to submit whatever letters he's being asked for, and it's not on you to police the nature of the letters he provides. He didn't ask you to lie, he didn't ask you to represent yourself as a colleague - obviously you should decline if someone asks you to lie - he asked you to provide a reference about your experience with him.
Now, he was a little pushy. If you've ever tried to collect a set of reference letters for a deadline, you may know there's a reason for that, as people are flaky and they don't really stand to gain much or anything from spending the time writing the letter, so it's low-priority for everyone else but the applicant.
But still, it's within your right to not want to do the letter. You are free to say no and give no reason; you don't even need to feel a reason, maybe you just don't have time or interest enough to do it at a level of quality you think would be appropriate. Of all the possible reasons, "You shouldn't have a reference letter from me" is a weirder one unless you have personal insight into that specific school's application process, but that point is kind of moot now since you've declined.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:08 AM on October 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
Now, he was a little pushy. If you've ever tried to collect a set of reference letters for a deadline, you may know there's a reason for that, as people are flaky and they don't really stand to gain much or anything from spending the time writing the letter, so it's low-priority for everyone else but the applicant.
But still, it's within your right to not want to do the letter. You are free to say no and give no reason; you don't even need to feel a reason, maybe you just don't have time or interest enough to do it at a level of quality you think would be appropriate. Of all the possible reasons, "You shouldn't have a reference letter from me" is a weirder one unless you have personal insight into that specific school's application process, but that point is kind of moot now since you've declined.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:08 AM on October 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
Best answer: No one is ever obligated to provide a letter of recommendation for someone else. It is always okay to decline this request if you are uncomfortable.
That said, it sounds like he was very clear: he wanted you to describe his skills as a teacher, and your relationship with him as a student. He was not asking you to assess his academic acumen in the field of basketweaving. I think that's a reasonable request for him to make of a former student, a former student could reasonably write a letter saying "Bob was a great teacher and mentor, even though I didn't pursue the field of basketweaving. He provided good feedback on my work, was easy to communicate with, etc". The hiring committee would certainly understand that you're not an academic providing an academic reference. Nothing dishonest here.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:15 AM on October 29, 2018 [36 favorites]
That said, it sounds like he was very clear: he wanted you to describe his skills as a teacher, and your relationship with him as a student. He was not asking you to assess his academic acumen in the field of basketweaving. I think that's a reasonable request for him to make of a former student, a former student could reasonably write a letter saying "Bob was a great teacher and mentor, even though I didn't pursue the field of basketweaving. He provided good feedback on my work, was easy to communicate with, etc". The hiring committee would certainly understand that you're not an academic providing an academic reference. Nothing dishonest here.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:15 AM on October 29, 2018 [36 favorites]
It is in no way dishonest, but you shouldn't feel coerced or pressured to write such a letter. It is a favor you would be doing your former mentor and it's not great to try and coerce favors. If you clearly said no and he kept pressuring you, that's not great. (If you were equivocal maybe that prompted him to follow up when you were hoping your lack of enthusiasm would allow him to take a hint.) Do you have some mixed feelings about your experience with him as a mentor that you feel would keep you from writing the kind of letter he's looking for?
In sum, the request was completely appropriate but maybe the way he asked or something about your prior interaction was off-putting?
posted by *s at 9:16 AM on October 29, 2018
In sum, the request was completely appropriate but maybe the way he asked or something about your prior interaction was off-putting?
posted by *s at 9:16 AM on October 29, 2018
Echoing praemunire: It sounds like you think that writing a letter as he suggested would reduce his chances. "I found it difficult to agree with him that it's good strategic play to have a reference letter from a former student." Since he was a professor and you were just a student, I'd expect him to be more knowledgeable about how best to apply. If you really "have no doubt that Bob will be an amazing basketweaving professor," then you should write the letter.
But perhaps you think that the fact that he can't get someone more prominent than a former student (such as a coworker or well-known basketweaver) to write the letter suggests that he's not as qualified as you thought he was based on your experience as a student. If so, don't write a letter you're not comfortable writing.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:19 AM on October 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
But perhaps you think that the fact that he can't get someone more prominent than a former student (such as a coworker or well-known basketweaver) to write the letter suggests that he's not as qualified as you thought he was based on your experience as a student. If so, don't write a letter you're not comfortable writing.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:19 AM on October 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don’t think it’s weird that he asked - “letter of support from accomplished former student” is indeed a category of reference letter, and I’ve written them in the past - but I do think it’s weird that he didn’t take no for an answer. I can cut him a little slack for thinking he might legitimately be clearing up a misunderstanding on your part about how references work, but in his shoes I would have dropped it, because he should probably assume at this point that you would not write a strong letter for some reason he doesn’t know about, and can’t politely ask.
posted by eirias at 9:24 AM on October 29, 2018
posted by eirias at 9:24 AM on October 29, 2018
Best answer: You think he will be a good professor, and you could speak from your experience as a former student. If you didn't think he would be good, then absolutely, don't recommend him. But I don't think the fact that you had some academic success means that you'll be assumed to be appraising him as a colleague. That seems to be the root of your discomfort -- or am I missing something? There was a power relationship ten years ago, but given where you are and where he is in your careers, that seems to be in the past. It makes sense to ask people who have had some success to serve as recommenders, simply because it shows that they have encountered a number of processors and have decent judgment. It doesn't mean you couldn't be clear about your relationship -- in fact, that's the formula for a good letter (how you know the person, one or more positive characteristics and examples of when you witnessed them, a few concluding sentences about your belief that they'd be good). You're of course free to decline, and he shouldn't pressure you (though I certainly understand him wanting to clarify that he wasn't asking you to misrepresent your relationship with him!), and maybe there's more that you're not articulating here, but I don't personally think that the reasons you give in the question make a lot of sense.
posted by salvia at 9:27 AM on October 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by salvia at 9:27 AM on October 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Sorry mods, I don't mean to thread-sit. Just thought I'd add some potentially useful info that I missed earlier. And thanks for all the perspectives upthread! Very helpful.
1) I did genuinely think that a letter from me will reduce his chances. I know he knows and could have gotten strong letters from respected, world renowned basketweavers. Whether he kept those relationships I don't know. But I admit thinking so because I didn't know letters from a former student is a category! So I did make some wrong assumptions, and I understand now he was trying to clarify rather than trying to pressure.
2) Job ad asked for letters to asseess the applicant's work as a basketweaver in the world of basketweaving.
posted by redwaterman at 9:33 AM on October 29, 2018
1) I did genuinely think that a letter from me will reduce his chances. I know he knows and could have gotten strong letters from respected, world renowned basketweavers. Whether he kept those relationships I don't know. But I admit thinking so because I didn't know letters from a former student is a category! So I did make some wrong assumptions, and I understand now he was trying to clarify rather than trying to pressure.
2) Job ad asked for letters to asseess the applicant's work as a basketweaver in the world of basketweaving.
posted by redwaterman at 9:33 AM on October 29, 2018
Best answer: I have definitely had former students and mentees write me letters of support. These are separate from my professional references from colleagues or mentors of mine. Letters from former students can be very powerful, and speak to aspects of the job my mentors cannot. How many mentees did Bob have in his teaching days? Are you one of a very few? If so, that might explain why he felt it was important. Still, he shouldn’t have harassed you about it.
posted by Knowyournuts at 9:37 AM on October 29, 2018
posted by Knowyournuts at 9:37 AM on October 29, 2018
Best answer: I tend to leave strategy up to the applicant. I ask people who request recommendations if they feel there's anything I should particularly highlight. Even if the form says X, they're the ones who are reading the job description, gathering intel, and assessing their strengths and weaknesses. Maybe he feels he has plenty of basketweaving skill references, but thinks that -- having not been a professor for ten years -- he'll also need to establish that he was good in a teaching and mentoring role. That makes sense. But even if the person's strategic sense is wrong, they're the ones who will succeed or fail as a result of their strategic decisions. If he thinks he needs a letter from a student to round out the package, I would defer to that, not second guess it.
posted by salvia at 9:42 AM on October 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by salvia at 9:42 AM on October 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I think you may feel weird because you are going against societal norms. There is *generally* an understanding that if someone helped you out in the past, you would naturally want to repay the favor out of gratitude. Of course you don’t have to, you can do anything you like, but since helping someone out that has helped you is much more accepted socially, that can be a source of discomfort.
I’m assuming they didn’t really help you out that much in their mentor role or you didn’t really like them, as the request seems to be a quick and easy one. That might be something you haven’t admitted to yourself.
posted by MountainDaisy at 10:04 AM on October 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
I’m assuming they didn’t really help you out that much in their mentor role or you didn’t really like them, as the request seems to be a quick and easy one. That might be something you haven’t admitted to yourself.
posted by MountainDaisy at 10:04 AM on October 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
You know the old saying, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach"? I don't think that's at all accurate, and the reason why is related to Bob's request. Some of the best instructors I had in university were also very technically skilled, but they're two distinct skill sets.
Bob knew that you couldn't vouch for his technical basketweaving skills, but he knew you were a good student and wanted you to vouch for his skill as an instructor. Whether or not you even weave baskets anymore is irrelevant -- I would guess his new role involves a fair amount of time teaching and he was looking for someone to personally vouch for his teaching abilities.
I can understand his disappointment, but you were well within your rights to decline. I think that your reticence and his subtle pressure means that the endorsement Bob was looking for -- a more personal endorsement of his instructor rapport with a student that evaluations may not give -- might not have been one you were willing to give.
posted by mikeh at 10:05 AM on October 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Bob knew that you couldn't vouch for his technical basketweaving skills, but he knew you were a good student and wanted you to vouch for his skill as an instructor. Whether or not you even weave baskets anymore is irrelevant -- I would guess his new role involves a fair amount of time teaching and he was looking for someone to personally vouch for his teaching abilities.
I can understand his disappointment, but you were well within your rights to decline. I think that your reticence and his subtle pressure means that the endorsement Bob was looking for -- a more personal endorsement of his instructor rapport with a student that evaluations may not give -- might not have been one you were willing to give.
posted by mikeh at 10:05 AM on October 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Do you feel that he is trying to take advantage of your hard work in non-basketweaving to have someone with an impressive-looking affiliation in his package? Do you think he would have asked for the letter if your career had taken you outside of academia? Do you think he should get a letter from a student who went on to do basketweaving, and so can comment on the current state of the basketweaving field? Do you think your experiences with him as a teacher are too limited to write a good recommendation, because your later experience in that field is so limited? Those are possible things that would make me uncomfortable in your situation.
If the main thing really is that you think a glowing letter of reference from a former student would make him look like a weirdo applicant, and don't want to help him to look like a weirdo applicant, that I would think on a little bit more. Some schools really focus on and value teaching quality. Maybe the fact that he has a gap in his teaching experience makes him want to bolster that part of his application more. Maybe he would only want a position from a place that valued his weirdness, and he was pleased to have come up with a clever way of including that. You can say no to anything you don't want to do, but I do think that "If I were you I would not include my glowing reference in your application so I won't write one" is a somewhat odd stance. (I myself work at a university and have gently pushed back on requested letters of recommendation in the past for exactly this reason, but that doesn't mean I don't write them, I just clarify that the student fully understands that I am not a prof and that my comments on their quality as a worker will be somewhat limited by the fact that I never supervised or formally taught them.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 10:18 AM on October 29, 2018
If the main thing really is that you think a glowing letter of reference from a former student would make him look like a weirdo applicant, and don't want to help him to look like a weirdo applicant, that I would think on a little bit more. Some schools really focus on and value teaching quality. Maybe the fact that he has a gap in his teaching experience makes him want to bolster that part of his application more. Maybe he would only want a position from a place that valued his weirdness, and he was pleased to have come up with a clever way of including that. You can say no to anything you don't want to do, but I do think that "If I were you I would not include my glowing reference in your application so I won't write one" is a somewhat odd stance. (I myself work at a university and have gently pushed back on requested letters of recommendation in the past for exactly this reason, but that doesn't mean I don't write them, I just clarify that the student fully understands that I am not a prof and that my comments on their quality as a worker will be somewhat limited by the fact that I never supervised or formally taught them.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 10:18 AM on October 29, 2018
Best answer: Asking for a student letter may or may not be a good strategy, but that’s for him to decide not you.
I know a few professors who took this gambit to get their jobs: it can and does work; sometimes.
Don’t presume you know his business better than him, or that a hiring committee would not understand what your letter as a former student was.
Still, do what you want and need. You are not obligated, but I too find your reasons for turning him down uncompelling, in my personal opinion as an academic scientist.
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:32 AM on October 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
I know a few professors who took this gambit to get their jobs: it can and does work; sometimes.
Don’t presume you know his business better than him, or that a hiring committee would not understand what your letter as a former student was.
Still, do what you want and need. You are not obligated, but I too find your reasons for turning him down uncompelling, in my personal opinion as an academic scientist.
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:32 AM on October 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I think you made a mistake here.
All you should answer is whether you're willing to write a letter. How the letter is to be used by its recipients is not yours to determine, or judge, and nor is it, in my opinion, a reason to decline. If you want to be clear, you start the letter off, as you said, "I can't assess his skills and abilities as a basketweaver, let alone his place in the world of basketweaving. I have never interacted with Bob as an equal colleague". You can make the context in which you know and are writing about Bob to be very clear -- that's fine, and very expected that you will describe how you know and are writing about Bob.
The strength of Bob's application packet is up to him. As you know, the breadth of responsibilities for faculty is wide, and he seems pretty clear that he wanted evidence of his ability to teach and mentor (which may be in question for him, as an application to an academic job after N years in industry). As a 4-year mentee, you'd be in a pretty good place to speak to that. He likely does have letters from Basketweaving Gods as well.
Job ads say generic things. I would not read anything into that.
I don't see why you're uneasy and uncomfortable here. I also don't understand why you see it as self-preservation to decline; how would you have failed yourself, to write the letter?
You always have the right to decline, but I think you have done wrong here.
posted by Dashy at 10:32 AM on October 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
All you should answer is whether you're willing to write a letter. How the letter is to be used by its recipients is not yours to determine, or judge, and nor is it, in my opinion, a reason to decline. If you want to be clear, you start the letter off, as you said, "I can't assess his skills and abilities as a basketweaver, let alone his place in the world of basketweaving. I have never interacted with Bob as an equal colleague". You can make the context in which you know and are writing about Bob to be very clear -- that's fine, and very expected that you will describe how you know and are writing about Bob.
The strength of Bob's application packet is up to him. As you know, the breadth of responsibilities for faculty is wide, and he seems pretty clear that he wanted evidence of his ability to teach and mentor (which may be in question for him, as an application to an academic job after N years in industry). As a 4-year mentee, you'd be in a pretty good place to speak to that. He likely does have letters from Basketweaving Gods as well.
Job ads say generic things. I would not read anything into that.
I don't see why you're uneasy and uncomfortable here. I also don't understand why you see it as self-preservation to decline; how would you have failed yourself, to write the letter?
You always have the right to decline, but I think you have done wrong here.
posted by Dashy at 10:32 AM on October 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
Best answer: Also, as to why you feel uncomfortable -- imposter syndrome? You judge yourself as unqualified to speak about basketweaving or anything associated, and are uncomfortable possibly exposing yourself as so unqualified?
posted by Dashy at 10:37 AM on October 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Dashy at 10:37 AM on October 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: To echo everyone else, of course you're not obligated to do anything you feel uncomfortable doing, but your justification that you think it would hurt him seems irrelevant. Let him make the decision of how he hopes to present himself and what kind of evidence he wants to present. That is not your choice to make. Again, you are free to do as you wish, but you should be aware that choosing to prioritize principles over relationships can at times be hurtful to people we care about.
posted by namesarehard at 10:42 AM on October 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by namesarehard at 10:42 AM on October 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks, everyone. I definitely learned a lesson here. Thanks especially to Dashy for pointing out the Imposter Syndrome at work, and to tchemgrrl, as I don't think Bob would have asked me had I not been in academia, even as a non-basketweaver, and to MountainDaisy, as I do have complicated feelings about certain aspects of Bob that I was trying to suppress but obviously failed.
All of that said, you are absolutely right that it wasn't my place to decide what's best for his application, and I shouldn't have second guessed him or presumed that I know better. I probably should have sorted out my feelings before responding to his request. When the opportunity comes I will apologize to Bob. Thanks to all once again!
posted by redwaterman at 10:59 AM on October 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
All of that said, you are absolutely right that it wasn't my place to decide what's best for his application, and I shouldn't have second guessed him or presumed that I know better. I probably should have sorted out my feelings before responding to his request. When the opportunity comes I will apologize to Bob. Thanks to all once again!
posted by redwaterman at 10:59 AM on October 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
It is common for professorship applications to specify how many and what types of reference letters need to be submitted. These letters can include academic and industry peers; academic and industry mentors; academic and industry managers; and former/current students and mentees. (Less commonly a character reference from friends and family is requested.)
posted by Kalatraz at 1:24 PM on October 29, 2018
posted by Kalatraz at 1:24 PM on October 29, 2018
It is probably not too late to call him back and say you’ve changed your mind and you can write the letter, if he still wants it. (You don’t have to explain why you changed your mind).
posted by shalom at 3:53 PM on October 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by shalom at 3:53 PM on October 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
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As a professor, I can see asking a student for a letter like this, but I would hedge a lot more (and give them a lot more outs) than Bob did for you. I think you could have written the letter with the caveats you've stated, but I think it's completely reasonable for you to not want to, too.
posted by Betelgeuse at 8:56 AM on October 29, 2018 [3 favorites]