Can you help me talk myself into separating from a toxic partnership?
October 15, 2018 6:03 PM Subscribe
I'm ambivalent for no good reason. We really need to separate at a minimum, but I am struggling with waffling which is not helping matters.
We do not get along anymore, probably barely ever did. We rushed into the relationship and I learned so much from doing that. I want to separate. But I've cried wolf before so he doesn't believe me I guess. The problem is after several days of saying it, and getting Stonewalling in return, I don't know what happens. I get lonely? He turns on some charm and acts loving or pretends nothing happened and somehow I fall for this crap.
But the relationship is toxic and I need to get over my ambivalence to separate. Can you help me?
Reasons I have hesitated:
# I make more money (not by choice)
# Logistics of holidays, visiting with my step kids that I like
# Loss of support from his parents (college fund etc)
# What if the problems are really all me and I just create the same garbage with the next person or pass it on to my toddler?
# What if the problems are really all lessons that I haven't learned yet so I'm doomed to repeat them again?
# When things are good they are good
# He has helped me do some personal (psychological) work and I feel like I owe him
# I dread sharing the change with extended family
# He is unconditionally loving in all but practical life sort of issues, and I wasn't raised with unconditional love, and I'm scared to give it up, or wonder if maybe the fact that I didn't have it means I don't know how to accept it like he says and this is all my fault, and maybe I just need to work harder on myself.
# We just purchased a family vacation with extended family and I don't know how to deal with that.
# He is the only person I've dated that made me feel like I am crazy and broken, but he really got in my head and I'm afraid that he will try to get sole custody of our child due to his belief that I will cause our child psychological harm (I have "ammo" to fight that battle, but really do not want to)
# Everyone says divorce is really hard and I'm scared that I am not strong enough.
# I haven't been in my job long, and I'm afraid the stress of a divorce will hurt my performance.
Reasons I want/need to go
# I am so drained by all these toxic events that it interferes with me ability to be present as a mother. I'm perpetually distracted by the problems, or texting my spouse about them instead of hanging with my kid. So far kid seems unscathed and is truly happy but I fear that I have to hurry up and take some action before I cause some harm to my son from not attending as much as he deserves.
# I feel the life force being sucked out of me, and can't see how I can survive another 30 years with my partner.
# Financial betrayals that have no real end in sight. I cannot count on him to be an equal contributor to the marriage.
# Poorly managed mental illness and little to no independent action to manage it, all action comes from external pressures.
# Dependent on me for many different life areas without reciprocal filling of my cup (can't help with bills? Fine then meet my emotional needs. Oh wait, you'll only do that if I am complimentary and always praise you?)
# I feel relief when I think about going. He says that's a fear of intimacy but I feel like it's a fear of staying with a parasite loser that feeds little Chinese water torture drops of need-meeting behavior then acts like I'm out of line for getting frustrated when he cuts the water off.
So, how do I make it through those moments where he is manipulating me out of my decision to leave? (He acts like it isn't manipulation but rather genuinely, he doesn't believe me, because I have said I wanted to go before but didn't, so I can't say I blame him for not believing me and thinking it will just blow over. Except I really want and need to go at this point. It's toxic, mutual contempt, I don't feel respected, and I don't respect him. We coparent cooperatively, and share similar politics, but that is really all we have.)
How do I stay strong? This is a marathon not a Sprint, and I don't know how to anchor my decision to something immutable.
Even stuff like protecting my child, I start to waffle thinking well maybe staying together and maybe if I just twist myself into so and so knots and learn to stop making demands of any kind, then I can stay, because so and so expert says divorcing for the kids isn't right and you need to stay together.
And then I think to myself that my spouse is emotionally abusive, whether or not he's aware that he is doing it, and surely that is a valid reason not to stay.
And on and on, I talk myself into leaving then talk myself out of it, to the point that I know my friends are sick of hearing it, and I am embarrassed that I haven't been able to fully commit to either decision.
I'm scared of making the wrong choice. But I think staying is logically the wrong choice. I just don't know how to get my emotions to listen to me.
So I am actually asking two questions.
1) How do I pull the trigger and kill my marriage in its current form? How do I stick by my choice in spite of his efforts to reel me back in / wait it out or in spite of my doubts?
2) Because I gather information to help me cope with the unknown, I need your good, bad and dirty observations about the separation and divorce process. What events or realizations hurt that you didn't expect to hurt? What are all the little hurts and losses I should anticipate? (One child, no shared property)? Did you have mood swings at work? How many days did you have to take off work? Any other sad/painful/infuriating truths that you could offer to help me avoid being shocked by them later?
We do not get along anymore, probably barely ever did. We rushed into the relationship and I learned so much from doing that. I want to separate. But I've cried wolf before so he doesn't believe me I guess. The problem is after several days of saying it, and getting Stonewalling in return, I don't know what happens. I get lonely? He turns on some charm and acts loving or pretends nothing happened and somehow I fall for this crap.
But the relationship is toxic and I need to get over my ambivalence to separate. Can you help me?
Reasons I have hesitated:
# I make more money (not by choice)
# Logistics of holidays, visiting with my step kids that I like
# Loss of support from his parents (college fund etc)
# What if the problems are really all me and I just create the same garbage with the next person or pass it on to my toddler?
# What if the problems are really all lessons that I haven't learned yet so I'm doomed to repeat them again?
# When things are good they are good
# He has helped me do some personal (psychological) work and I feel like I owe him
# I dread sharing the change with extended family
# He is unconditionally loving in all but practical life sort of issues, and I wasn't raised with unconditional love, and I'm scared to give it up, or wonder if maybe the fact that I didn't have it means I don't know how to accept it like he says and this is all my fault, and maybe I just need to work harder on myself.
# We just purchased a family vacation with extended family and I don't know how to deal with that.
# He is the only person I've dated that made me feel like I am crazy and broken, but he really got in my head and I'm afraid that he will try to get sole custody of our child due to his belief that I will cause our child psychological harm (I have "ammo" to fight that battle, but really do not want to)
# Everyone says divorce is really hard and I'm scared that I am not strong enough.
# I haven't been in my job long, and I'm afraid the stress of a divorce will hurt my performance.
Reasons I want/need to go
# I am so drained by all these toxic events that it interferes with me ability to be present as a mother. I'm perpetually distracted by the problems, or texting my spouse about them instead of hanging with my kid. So far kid seems unscathed and is truly happy but I fear that I have to hurry up and take some action before I cause some harm to my son from not attending as much as he deserves.
# I feel the life force being sucked out of me, and can't see how I can survive another 30 years with my partner.
# Financial betrayals that have no real end in sight. I cannot count on him to be an equal contributor to the marriage.
# Poorly managed mental illness and little to no independent action to manage it, all action comes from external pressures.
# Dependent on me for many different life areas without reciprocal filling of my cup (can't help with bills? Fine then meet my emotional needs. Oh wait, you'll only do that if I am complimentary and always praise you?)
# I feel relief when I think about going. He says that's a fear of intimacy but I feel like it's a fear of staying with a parasite loser that feeds little Chinese water torture drops of need-meeting behavior then acts like I'm out of line for getting frustrated when he cuts the water off.
So, how do I make it through those moments where he is manipulating me out of my decision to leave? (He acts like it isn't manipulation but rather genuinely, he doesn't believe me, because I have said I wanted to go before but didn't, so I can't say I blame him for not believing me and thinking it will just blow over. Except I really want and need to go at this point. It's toxic, mutual contempt, I don't feel respected, and I don't respect him. We coparent cooperatively, and share similar politics, but that is really all we have.)
How do I stay strong? This is a marathon not a Sprint, and I don't know how to anchor my decision to something immutable.
Even stuff like protecting my child, I start to waffle thinking well maybe staying together and maybe if I just twist myself into so and so knots and learn to stop making demands of any kind, then I can stay, because so and so expert says divorcing for the kids isn't right and you need to stay together.
And then I think to myself that my spouse is emotionally abusive, whether or not he's aware that he is doing it, and surely that is a valid reason not to stay.
And on and on, I talk myself into leaving then talk myself out of it, to the point that I know my friends are sick of hearing it, and I am embarrassed that I haven't been able to fully commit to either decision.
I'm scared of making the wrong choice. But I think staying is logically the wrong choice. I just don't know how to get my emotions to listen to me.
So I am actually asking two questions.
1) How do I pull the trigger and kill my marriage in its current form? How do I stick by my choice in spite of his efforts to reel me back in / wait it out or in spite of my doubts?
2) Because I gather information to help me cope with the unknown, I need your good, bad and dirty observations about the separation and divorce process. What events or realizations hurt that you didn't expect to hurt? What are all the little hurts and losses I should anticipate? (One child, no shared property)? Did you have mood swings at work? How many days did you have to take off work? Any other sad/painful/infuriating truths that you could offer to help me avoid being shocked by them later?
I can’t speak to all of your questions, but I can say this with certainty: divorce is much, much better than being in an unhappy marriage. I am such a better mother than I was when I was spending so much emotional energy being miserable, feeling like a bad wife, etc.
You do not need his approval to leave the relationship. You don’t have to convince him. You won’t and can’t convince him. So stop talking to him about it.
Have you been fully honest with good friends or family about the emotional abuse? Sometimes we want to protect abusive partners by not being fully honest with people who love us, because we know they will tell us it’s bad and that maybe we should leave. So I think you should start by drawing on the resources you have: the other people in your life who love you. They can help you.
Also, the idea that you wouldn’t have at least shared custody of your kid—that’s the bad stuff talking, not reality.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:27 PM on October 15, 2018 [8 favorites]
You do not need his approval to leave the relationship. You don’t have to convince him. You won’t and can’t convince him. So stop talking to him about it.
Have you been fully honest with good friends or family about the emotional abuse? Sometimes we want to protect abusive partners by not being fully honest with people who love us, because we know they will tell us it’s bad and that maybe we should leave. So I think you should start by drawing on the resources you have: the other people in your life who love you. They can help you.
Also, the idea that you wouldn’t have at least shared custody of your kid—that’s the bad stuff talking, not reality.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:27 PM on October 15, 2018 [8 favorites]
Hey, I really hope I am not overstepping, but I just wanted to say I remember your asks and I’m really proud of you for making it to asking this question, and I think a lot of other folks on the green are, too. You’re strong, you’re a good mom and a good person, and people here have your back. <3
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:29 PM on October 15, 2018 [52 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:29 PM on October 15, 2018 [52 favorites]
How do you stick with it? Every time you waver, go back and read your past posts. I’ve been pulling for you to leave this guy for years now.
You defend him admirably and have tried so, so hard to make this work but he’s just not going to change. And why should he, you work three jobs while he goes gaming and spends your money on that. You look after his children from other relationships while he sits back and does nothing. Anytime you mention any of these and the myriad of other issues, he calls you psychopath for bringing it up. That’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.
Honestly, the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. This is who he is. He’s not getting better. It ain’t gonna change. If you can accept that, by all means, stay. But if you can’t handle this for another 30 years, YOU HAVE TO LEAVE. And not just for you, for your child because they’re absorbing all of this.
You’re strong, but no one should have to be this strong. Please, please leave him. He’s broken but you don’t have to be.
posted by Jubey at 6:31 PM on October 15, 2018 [16 favorites]
You defend him admirably and have tried so, so hard to make this work but he’s just not going to change. And why should he, you work three jobs while he goes gaming and spends your money on that. You look after his children from other relationships while he sits back and does nothing. Anytime you mention any of these and the myriad of other issues, he calls you psychopath for bringing it up. That’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.
Honestly, the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. This is who he is. He’s not getting better. It ain’t gonna change. If you can accept that, by all means, stay. But if you can’t handle this for another 30 years, YOU HAVE TO LEAVE. And not just for you, for your child because they’re absorbing all of this.
You’re strong, but no one should have to be this strong. Please, please leave him. He’s broken but you don’t have to be.
posted by Jubey at 6:31 PM on October 15, 2018 [16 favorites]
He is unconditionally loving in all but practical life sort of issues
in contrast with
Dependent on me for many different life areas without reciprocal filling of my cup (can't help with bills? Fine then meet my emotional needs. Oh wait, you'll only do that if I am complimentary and always praise you?)
says he is not unconditionally loving. He's manipulative and only loves the version of you where you do what he wants.
I can't tell you how to convince yourself, but if it helps - he sounds awful and abusive and you deserve so much better. Stop telling him you're leaving and tell yourself, every day, by taking steps toward it. Make a plan and follow the plan. Update as necessary, but remember every day the relief you feel when you think about getting out and work toward that.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:42 PM on October 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
in contrast with
Dependent on me for many different life areas without reciprocal filling of my cup (can't help with bills? Fine then meet my emotional needs. Oh wait, you'll only do that if I am complimentary and always praise you?)
says he is not unconditionally loving. He's manipulative and only loves the version of you where you do what he wants.
I can't tell you how to convince yourself, but if it helps - he sounds awful and abusive and you deserve so much better. Stop telling him you're leaving and tell yourself, every day, by taking steps toward it. Make a plan and follow the plan. Update as necessary, but remember every day the relief you feel when you think about getting out and work toward that.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:42 PM on October 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: . The problem is after several days of saying it, and getting Stonewalling in return,
leaving someone isn't a transaction. I don't even know what a reasonable person would give you in return for the announcement that it's over, but certainly you're not going to get it out of this person. ever. whatever it is, you don't need it.
it also isn't a cooperative process. I mean I'm sure it could be in an amicable divorce that was mutually desired, but not here. under other circumstances it could be a conversation, but your whole relationship has been nothing but that conversation. you know why and he knows why. All you owe him now is the final announcement once you decide it is final. (And I have no sympathy for him whatsoever, and you should feel no guilt whatsoever, but what reaction can you possibly give to someone who says they're going, they're going, and then just doesn't leave? Don't do anything in the hope of any one reaction.)
so instead of saying it to him again and again, say it to a lawyer. say it to a financial planner. say it to people who are there to help you and work with you to make it happen smoothly and for your benefit. get used to being around people like that instead of people like him. people who get paid by the hour, so that you'll have a practical incentive not to drag things out longer than necessary. people who will reflect back your desires, having no conflicting emotional investments of their own, and work to make them real.
But I've cried wolf before so he doesn't believe me I guess
but you're not that character in the story. you don't need him to believe you and rescue you, you're not the boy who's called for help from the wolf so many times without really needing it, you are the wolf! In the best possible way. be the wolf he never expected would really come.
So, how do I make it through those moments where he is manipulating me out of my decision to leave?
by not being there. nothing he says can affect you if you're not there to hear it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:51 PM on October 15, 2018 [48 favorites]
leaving someone isn't a transaction. I don't even know what a reasonable person would give you in return for the announcement that it's over, but certainly you're not going to get it out of this person. ever. whatever it is, you don't need it.
it also isn't a cooperative process. I mean I'm sure it could be in an amicable divorce that was mutually desired, but not here. under other circumstances it could be a conversation, but your whole relationship has been nothing but that conversation. you know why and he knows why. All you owe him now is the final announcement once you decide it is final. (And I have no sympathy for him whatsoever, and you should feel no guilt whatsoever, but what reaction can you possibly give to someone who says they're going, they're going, and then just doesn't leave? Don't do anything in the hope of any one reaction.)
so instead of saying it to him again and again, say it to a lawyer. say it to a financial planner. say it to people who are there to help you and work with you to make it happen smoothly and for your benefit. get used to being around people like that instead of people like him. people who get paid by the hour, so that you'll have a practical incentive not to drag things out longer than necessary. people who will reflect back your desires, having no conflicting emotional investments of their own, and work to make them real.
But I've cried wolf before so he doesn't believe me I guess
but you're not that character in the story. you don't need him to believe you and rescue you, you're not the boy who's called for help from the wolf so many times without really needing it, you are the wolf! In the best possible way. be the wolf he never expected would really come.
So, how do I make it through those moments where he is manipulating me out of my decision to leave?
by not being there. nothing he says can affect you if you're not there to hear it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:51 PM on October 15, 2018 [48 favorites]
It cannot hurt to visit with a family law person and find out how things work with money and residential time in your area. College fund? Grandparents would probably still kick in for that. Custody? Unless there is documentation that you're harming the child, you're probably good.
Get more information to help yourself figure out your next steps.
posted by k8t at 6:52 PM on October 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
Get more information to help yourself figure out your next steps.
posted by k8t at 6:52 PM on October 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
& I have not personally been divorced but I have had extraordinarily, notoriously painful surgery that I put off for years because I already knew I could handle years of the chronic moderate-to-high pain I was used to and wasn't sure I could handle several months of much worse acute maximum post-surgical pain. also because once you sign papers and move past a certain point, you can't change your mind and undo it and go back to the pain level you could handle before. you have to live with it and hope everybody told you the truth when they recommended this.
it was a good decision and the only better decision would have been to do it two years ago.
nearly everybody who has it says the same thing. they say the same thing about divorce in circumstances like yours, and I bet they are right. with surgery, things hurt most when they are moving and changing and being cut apart. but then, you feel better.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:59 PM on October 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
it was a good decision and the only better decision would have been to do it two years ago.
nearly everybody who has it says the same thing. they say the same thing about divorce in circumstances like yours, and I bet they are right. with surgery, things hurt most when they are moving and changing and being cut apart. but then, you feel better.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:59 PM on October 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
Best answer: It sounds like part of your problem is that on the one hand you have your internal narrative of this relationship, and on the other hand you have the actual dude. In your story in your head of your how your relationship goes, the relationship sounds like a thing you need to protect and restore. I would suggest, to get your head around this, write down the whole story of how you feel about your relationship--actually write it out--and then re-read it and go back through it for a really aggressive fact-check. Be the author of your thoughts about this, but also be your own editor. You've been hearing other people say this stuff for awhile; you need to get into the habit yourself of doing your own course-correction when your brain starts defending the status quo. Don't keep asking strangers if he's really that bad; ask yourself for evidence. Make actual pro/con lists if you have to. When you have a thought like this, like "he gives me unconditional love", learn to ask if that's real or if that's just what you wish was true, and start telling yourself facts and not just stories.
I have had the relationships where they were based mostly on this kind of wishing, and I know it's hard, but learning that kind of skepticism will not only help you with this, it'll help you in the future, too.
posted by Sequence at 7:38 PM on October 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
I have had the relationships where they were based mostly on this kind of wishing, and I know it's hard, but learning that kind of skepticism will not only help you with this, it'll help you in the future, too.
posted by Sequence at 7:38 PM on October 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
Put everything on the back burner for a minute. Get a practice that makes you feel normal, strong, and centered. Stop fighting with him. Focus on your side of the street and slowly disengage.
I think you should simultaneously praise him so he feels relaxed and doesn’t notice your plans. Actively let him think your practice is why you feel so great and have expanded your coping skills (this will be true.)
When you feel more centered and solid, go see a great lawyer and get the ball rolling.
If you are safe, this is a practical plan because your ability to cope and be present as a parent is paramount. If he threatens violence or gets violent, seek domestic violence resources immediately.
posted by jbenben at 7:43 PM on October 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
I think you should simultaneously praise him so he feels relaxed and doesn’t notice your plans. Actively let him think your practice is why you feel so great and have expanded your coping skills (this will be true.)
When you feel more centered and solid, go see a great lawyer and get the ball rolling.
If you are safe, this is a practical plan because your ability to cope and be present as a parent is paramount. If he threatens violence or gets violent, seek domestic violence resources immediately.
posted by jbenben at 7:43 PM on October 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
He is unconditionally loving
He is not unconditionally loving, nor is that a thing mentally stable people have in adult relationships, nor is that a healthy idea to be carrying around. You love your child unconditionally. You do not love your partner unconditionally, nor does he love you unconditionally.
If he beat you, you'd leave. If he killed your child, you'd leave. That is appropriate, healthy, conditional love within a marriage.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:56 AM on October 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
He is not unconditionally loving, nor is that a thing mentally stable people have in adult relationships, nor is that a healthy idea to be carrying around. You love your child unconditionally. You do not love your partner unconditionally, nor does he love you unconditionally.
If he beat you, you'd leave. If he killed your child, you'd leave. That is appropriate, healthy, conditional love within a marriage.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:56 AM on October 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
You are going to feel so much better when it's done. Like a great weight of dread has lifted from your shoulders and drifted away on the breeze. Like a tight knot of pain in your chest has suddenly released, and you can breathe free again. Few things in my own life have felt as immediately, unambiguously, powerfully good as leaving the toxic, abusive, codependent relationship that I spent years feeling trapped in. It is so, so, so hard to do. But as soon as you close that door behind you, you're going to know that you made the right choice.
It's going to feel amazing.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:02 AM on October 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
It's going to feel amazing.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:02 AM on October 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
This is a great time to identify the people who will be on your team during the process of separation. Friends, family members, legal professional, financial planner, therapist, etc. Keeping a journal could be very helpful not only to your mental health but in any legal proceedings that may ensue.
As for maintaining your resolve, keep rereading these threads. You and your kid deserve better
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:57 AM on October 16, 2018
As for maintaining your resolve, keep rereading these threads. You and your kid deserve better
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:57 AM on October 16, 2018
Best answer: I would also like to echo queenofbythinia's fantastic answer above. Leaving is not something you ask for. It is not something you threaten, negotiate, or transact in any way. He is not going to give you anything, nor do you need him to.
This is not a two-way process. It is a one-way process.
He is not going to give you your freedom, you are going to take it. That is your right. He is not going to allow you to leave, you are just going to do it, without his permission. You don't need his permission. You don't even need his acknowledgement. You never did.
You are already free.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:27 AM on October 16, 2018 [27 favorites]
This is not a two-way process. It is a one-way process.
He is not going to give you your freedom, you are going to take it. That is your right. He is not going to allow you to leave, you are just going to do it, without his permission. You don't need his permission. You don't even need his acknowledgement. You never did.
You are already free.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:27 AM on October 16, 2018 [27 favorites]
This does not have to be a black and white, either/or situation. You can start small by finding a sublet, moving in, and then announcing to your partner that you are separating from him for now.
I used to think my partner had veto power over my life and my choices. Turns out he only had veto power over them because I gave him veto power. It is extremely uncomfortable to deal with disapproval, anger, resentment, etc., from people we love and/or who love us when we choose to do things against their desires. But learning to tolerate that discomfort is so so worth it after we have gone through the ickiness and emerged stronger, happier, and more independent.
(Pro tip: People hate it when you stop doing everything they want you to do. That's okay. That is normal, even. They get used to it eventually if you stick to your guns. Which, in this case, means not discussing anything but just making a plan for yourself, following it, and then letting your partner know that you no longer live with him effective today, and then discuss custody stuff. But see an attorney first before you get to that part, please.)
Also, you do not want to model this kind of relationship for your toddler, right? Breaking up is a process. You can do this in stages. You are not forced to support this guy, resent him, and turn yourself inside out for many more years just because he wants you to stick around. Of course he wants you to stick around. That does not make sticking around good for you, your child, or, honestly, for him.
Breaking any addiction requires a strategy, so please talk to a therapist or whomever about the things you can do (once you have moved out) to avoid picking up the phone and reconnecting with him on anything that is not about co-parenting. Like knitting or doing puzzles or going for walks. You need to figure out alternative activities to help prevent you from falling back into your old pattern.
I spent one full night awake and terrified, my teeth chattering, convinced that I was dying in my awful little sublet near the family apartment where my partner and kid were sleeping about 7 months after my separation. I wanted to go home and slide into bed and get a hug and feel better. But I knew that I had to stick with my decision and decided that if I was dying I would just die. Because otherwise I would be trapped in my shitty relationship forever, the relationship that was giving me panic attacks and making me stand as far away as possible from the subway tracks while waiting for a train because it seemed kind of tempting to end my misery but as a mom I did not have that luxury.
I have an anxiety disorder. I have ADHD. Those are just medical/physical things. I am also a flawed human being. In addition, I am also a wonderful human being. I bet you are, too. You are just as deserving of a good life as I am. Since I left my partner I have had ups and downs but I have never once regretted leaving my partner, not even during the toughest moments of my life afterward. I cannot promise you will be happy if you leave your partner, but I can promise will find reasons to care about yourself and love yourself that you were unable to see as long as you were with this guy.
Whatever you decide, take care of yourself as best you can. We are rooting for you.
posted by Bella Donna at 4:32 AM on October 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
I used to think my partner had veto power over my life and my choices. Turns out he only had veto power over them because I gave him veto power. It is extremely uncomfortable to deal with disapproval, anger, resentment, etc., from people we love and/or who love us when we choose to do things against their desires. But learning to tolerate that discomfort is so so worth it after we have gone through the ickiness and emerged stronger, happier, and more independent.
(Pro tip: People hate it when you stop doing everything they want you to do. That's okay. That is normal, even. They get used to it eventually if you stick to your guns. Which, in this case, means not discussing anything but just making a plan for yourself, following it, and then letting your partner know that you no longer live with him effective today, and then discuss custody stuff. But see an attorney first before you get to that part, please.)
Also, you do not want to model this kind of relationship for your toddler, right? Breaking up is a process. You can do this in stages. You are not forced to support this guy, resent him, and turn yourself inside out for many more years just because he wants you to stick around. Of course he wants you to stick around. That does not make sticking around good for you, your child, or, honestly, for him.
Breaking any addiction requires a strategy, so please talk to a therapist or whomever about the things you can do (once you have moved out) to avoid picking up the phone and reconnecting with him on anything that is not about co-parenting. Like knitting or doing puzzles or going for walks. You need to figure out alternative activities to help prevent you from falling back into your old pattern.
I spent one full night awake and terrified, my teeth chattering, convinced that I was dying in my awful little sublet near the family apartment where my partner and kid were sleeping about 7 months after my separation. I wanted to go home and slide into bed and get a hug and feel better. But I knew that I had to stick with my decision and decided that if I was dying I would just die. Because otherwise I would be trapped in my shitty relationship forever, the relationship that was giving me panic attacks and making me stand as far away as possible from the subway tracks while waiting for a train because it seemed kind of tempting to end my misery but as a mom I did not have that luxury.
I have an anxiety disorder. I have ADHD. Those are just medical/physical things. I am also a flawed human being. In addition, I am also a wonderful human being. I bet you are, too. You are just as deserving of a good life as I am. Since I left my partner I have had ups and downs but I have never once regretted leaving my partner, not even during the toughest moments of my life afterward. I cannot promise you will be happy if you leave your partner, but I can promise will find reasons to care about yourself and love yourself that you were unable to see as long as you were with this guy.
Whatever you decide, take care of yourself as best you can. We are rooting for you.
posted by Bella Donna at 4:32 AM on October 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Apologies for not answering your questions more specifically.
1. I had mood swings at work but did my best to focus on work and save my emotional meltdowns for after work on the days I did not care for my kid.
2. I actually started a new job a month before the separation. It was really hard. But I survived and did the one day at a time, one hour at a time, one minute at a time thing as needed. Taking the stairs, physical activity, and meditation helped me.
3. Before the permanent separation I did a trial separation and my parter promised to make a couple of changes if I came back. I did but he did not change. The infuriating and shocking truth I discovered was about myself and not him–I had wasted years of my life listening to his words instead of paying attention to his behaviour. In the end, it did not matter what he said when his behaviour was the opposite of what he said.
4. I missed him and I missed us, as a couple, more than I expected to. But it was manageable.
5. I did not expect my kid to beg me to move back in so we could be a family. I explained that I had waited several years for her sake but couldn't go back. Several years after that she told me that she wished I had left earlier, for my sake.
6. Another surprising thing that happened: Right after the separation I met many women, through other friends, who told me they admired how "brave" I was. They wanted to leave their partners but were too afraid. It is scary but not as scary as choosing to be miserable indefinitely, IMHO.
Your mileage will vary. A list of why you plan to leave, a list of all the things that make you feel terrible for staying, and a list of the good things you hope to experience as a result of leaving might be helpful later. Our memories tend to be unreliable. When I started to feel wobbly I could go back and read one of the zillion emails I had sent my partner (who did not like to talk) asking for help and that were invariably ignored. Those, for me, were good reminders that I was making/had made the right choice for me.
Of course, you can just look at the list above and your other Asks for reminders, including:
# He is the only person I've dated that made me feel like I am crazy and broken, but he really got in my head and I'm afraid that he will try to get sole custody of our child due to his belief that I will cause our child psychological harm (I have "ammo" to fight that battle, but really do not want to)
You can handle whatever issues come up as they come up. There will be lots of things you don't want to do but will need to do to get to a better place. Change is painful. Growth is painful. But as you already know, there are people you can date, should you choose to date later, who will not make you feel crazy and broken. There are people you can date who will like you just as you are. I did not know that was possible until I left my partner. I thought you got to be with someone who liked your mind or someone who liked your body but you never got both. I was wrong about that.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:57 AM on October 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
1. I had mood swings at work but did my best to focus on work and save my emotional meltdowns for after work on the days I did not care for my kid.
2. I actually started a new job a month before the separation. It was really hard. But I survived and did the one day at a time, one hour at a time, one minute at a time thing as needed. Taking the stairs, physical activity, and meditation helped me.
3. Before the permanent separation I did a trial separation and my parter promised to make a couple of changes if I came back. I did but he did not change. The infuriating and shocking truth I discovered was about myself and not him–I had wasted years of my life listening to his words instead of paying attention to his behaviour. In the end, it did not matter what he said when his behaviour was the opposite of what he said.
4. I missed him and I missed us, as a couple, more than I expected to. But it was manageable.
5. I did not expect my kid to beg me to move back in so we could be a family. I explained that I had waited several years for her sake but couldn't go back. Several years after that she told me that she wished I had left earlier, for my sake.
6. Another surprising thing that happened: Right after the separation I met many women, through other friends, who told me they admired how "brave" I was. They wanted to leave their partners but were too afraid. It is scary but not as scary as choosing to be miserable indefinitely, IMHO.
Your mileage will vary. A list of why you plan to leave, a list of all the things that make you feel terrible for staying, and a list of the good things you hope to experience as a result of leaving might be helpful later. Our memories tend to be unreliable. When I started to feel wobbly I could go back and read one of the zillion emails I had sent my partner (who did not like to talk) asking for help and that were invariably ignored. Those, for me, were good reminders that I was making/had made the right choice for me.
Of course, you can just look at the list above and your other Asks for reminders, including:
# He is the only person I've dated that made me feel like I am crazy and broken, but he really got in my head and I'm afraid that he will try to get sole custody of our child due to his belief that I will cause our child psychological harm (I have "ammo" to fight that battle, but really do not want to)
You can handle whatever issues come up as they come up. There will be lots of things you don't want to do but will need to do to get to a better place. Change is painful. Growth is painful. But as you already know, there are people you can date, should you choose to date later, who will not make you feel crazy and broken. There are people you can date who will like you just as you are. I did not know that was possible until I left my partner. I thought you got to be with someone who liked your mind or someone who liked your body but you never got both. I was wrong about that.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:57 AM on October 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
I just want to add, as a fellow spoonie, that you don't even fully realize how many spoons you are sacrificing every day just trying to keep your head above water in a toxic relationship like this. Like, however many spoons you *think* that is? It's 50% more than that at least, a spoon tax right off the top.
This makes it extra hard for us to marshal the resources to leave, so baby steps are super important. Just do one thing today that helps lay the groundwork... scan an important document, rent a safe deposit box, go check out an apartment, call a friend on Team You ... literally any small step.
Which leads me to the unexpected (but not painful) truth... What this spoon tax ALSO means is that once you get through the process of leaving, you're going to reap a sizable spoon tax refund over time... despite the demands of single parenthood or autoimmune conditions or anything else, there will come a moment in the middle of your new life where you realize that yeah, you may be tired -- exhausted even -- but you're not drained. And you no longer see the next 30 years as a slow process of dying, because there's so much living for you and your kid to be doing in the meantime.
Leaving a toxic relationship is a process, and that's ok. You are going to make it through this and thrive on the other side of it. It is so, so hard to see that when you're in the middle of it, so come back and read this thread on the regular, and keep taking those baby steps.
You've got this, and we've got you.
posted by somanyamys at 6:04 AM on October 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
This makes it extra hard for us to marshal the resources to leave, so baby steps are super important. Just do one thing today that helps lay the groundwork... scan an important document, rent a safe deposit box, go check out an apartment, call a friend on Team You ... literally any small step.
Which leads me to the unexpected (but not painful) truth... What this spoon tax ALSO means is that once you get through the process of leaving, you're going to reap a sizable spoon tax refund over time... despite the demands of single parenthood or autoimmune conditions or anything else, there will come a moment in the middle of your new life where you realize that yeah, you may be tired -- exhausted even -- but you're not drained. And you no longer see the next 30 years as a slow process of dying, because there's so much living for you and your kid to be doing in the meantime.
Leaving a toxic relationship is a process, and that's ok. You are going to make it through this and thrive on the other side of it. It is so, so hard to see that when you're in the middle of it, so come back and read this thread on the regular, and keep taking those baby steps.
You've got this, and we've got you.
posted by somanyamys at 6:04 AM on October 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Also, just to be super explicit about this so you have it to refer back to, because it is something I needed to hear repeatedly...
***YOU ARE NOT DAMAGING YOUR CHILD BY LEAVING A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP***
You know that you don't want them growing up thinking that this kind of relationship is acceptable. This is not the kind of relationship you would ever, ever want for them. This is why you MUST go.
(Plus, when you get that spoon tax refund, you have more spoons to spend on being an awesome mom.) :-)
posted by somanyamys at 6:22 AM on October 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
***YOU ARE NOT DAMAGING YOUR CHILD BY LEAVING A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP***
You know that you don't want them growing up thinking that this kind of relationship is acceptable. This is not the kind of relationship you would ever, ever want for them. This is why you MUST go.
(Plus, when you get that spoon tax refund, you have more spoons to spend on being an awesome mom.) :-)
posted by somanyamys at 6:22 AM on October 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
I can only say to you what my therapist said to me when I was in a similar situation contemplating divorce vs. reconciliation. It was extremely helpful, although your mileage may vary:
"I think you know what you want."
posted by Morpeth at 6:30 AM on October 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
"I think you know what you want."
posted by Morpeth at 6:30 AM on October 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
A lot of these what-ifs are just fear of change. You know an upcoming vacation is not a reason to stay in a poisonous, soul-killing relationship. I know you know this.
Once you well and truly make the decision to change things, you would be AMAZED at how simple these what-ifs become. Not easy, mind you, but simple. Once the bigger decision is made, the smaller decisions sort of fall into place, so don't let them cloud your judgement. They're things you have to deal with, but right now, they're distractions. Right now you only really have one decision.
I find this to be a trite phrase, but you know how people accept a "new normal?" You will do so as well, you will carry on, and I think you know you'll be glad you decided to take this step.
posted by kapers at 7:09 AM on October 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Once you well and truly make the decision to change things, you would be AMAZED at how simple these what-ifs become. Not easy, mind you, but simple. Once the bigger decision is made, the smaller decisions sort of fall into place, so don't let them cloud your judgement. They're things you have to deal with, but right now, they're distractions. Right now you only really have one decision.
I find this to be a trite phrase, but you know how people accept a "new normal?" You will do so as well, you will carry on, and I think you know you'll be glad you decided to take this step.
posted by kapers at 7:09 AM on October 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
And I totally agree with others that you need to operate from the assumption that you won't get his buy-in--so don't seek it. He's not going to agree, and it's not going to improve. As a lot of people here can tell you it will actually get worse the longer you wait.
If he were capable of being the sort of partner you need, he would have been so by now. You've already said you can't see how you'd survive in this way. Well, you don't have to.
posted by kapers at 7:14 AM on October 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
If he were capable of being the sort of partner you need, he would have been so by now. You've already said you can't see how you'd survive in this way. Well, you don't have to.
posted by kapers at 7:14 AM on October 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I also sought therapy when contemplating divorce. The first one said:
"You don't need anyone's permission to get divorced, but if you want it, you have mine."
The second was more complicated, mind-games and abuse, and she said:
"He's never going to change."
Hearing that last bit made me realize that I was holding out for him changing, somehow realizing that what he was doing was wrong.
It was amazingly head-spinning to see how fast he turned around and found another woman. I was still going through therapy and mourning the loss of the relationship, and the one thing that helped me was to put on the earbuds every day and go walking (may I recommend "Shake Ya Tailfeather" and "Pussy Control"? Cuz those helped me a LOT, to keep my energy up, ymmv).
I'd start by consulting a family lawyer, to protect your finances and your custody rights concerning your child. Things like, who will claim your child on tax returns, who will live where, who pays daycare, school registration fees, spousal support (if you think he may ask it of you, and if he will have to pay child support), who gets any vehicles, how to handle joint banking accounts, etc. Those are things you want to ask, and ask about legal separation, if applicable in your state (to protect your money, while the divorce is going through). I made the mistake of drawing out the actual divorce the first time around, and I ended up paying for everything, and had nothing to show for it when the actual divorce came through.
Really recommend therapy in this situation, because if you are paying a divorce attorney, they charge a lot of money, and they can't be your therapist, and phone calls can rack up the fees. You wouldn't pay a refrigerator repair person to tell you what food to buy and what meals to cook, right? So get a therapist, for the emotional support and to help you work through your feelings and decisions, and only pay the lawyer for the nuts and bolts.
Also think about joining a support group. You might find this article helpful: 8 Things Divorced Moms Want Divorcing Moms to Know.
I can laugh now, thinking about how much I was criticized for simple things like whether I could wear sweatpants at home, having friends, what to eat, whether or not I could watch TV, calling me crazy (because I must be "crazy" to disagree with him and his crappy abusive behavior, that's typical gaslighting), and yes, the stonewalling silent treatment if I dared to step out of bounds and simply be myself. It does take a while to get out of the mindset, yes, but the little joys and freedom to be yourself are worth it.
Signed,
Team Sweatpants Forevah
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 7:25 AM on October 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
"You don't need anyone's permission to get divorced, but if you want it, you have mine."
The second was more complicated, mind-games and abuse, and she said:
"He's never going to change."
Hearing that last bit made me realize that I was holding out for him changing, somehow realizing that what he was doing was wrong.
It was amazingly head-spinning to see how fast he turned around and found another woman. I was still going through therapy and mourning the loss of the relationship, and the one thing that helped me was to put on the earbuds every day and go walking (may I recommend "Shake Ya Tailfeather" and "Pussy Control"? Cuz those helped me a LOT, to keep my energy up, ymmv).
I'd start by consulting a family lawyer, to protect your finances and your custody rights concerning your child. Things like, who will claim your child on tax returns, who will live where, who pays daycare, school registration fees, spousal support (if you think he may ask it of you, and if he will have to pay child support), who gets any vehicles, how to handle joint banking accounts, etc. Those are things you want to ask, and ask about legal separation, if applicable in your state (to protect your money, while the divorce is going through). I made the mistake of drawing out the actual divorce the first time around, and I ended up paying for everything, and had nothing to show for it when the actual divorce came through.
Really recommend therapy in this situation, because if you are paying a divorce attorney, they charge a lot of money, and they can't be your therapist, and phone calls can rack up the fees. You wouldn't pay a refrigerator repair person to tell you what food to buy and what meals to cook, right? So get a therapist, for the emotional support and to help you work through your feelings and decisions, and only pay the lawyer for the nuts and bolts.
Also think about joining a support group. You might find this article helpful: 8 Things Divorced Moms Want Divorcing Moms to Know.
I can laugh now, thinking about how much I was criticized for simple things like whether I could wear sweatpants at home, having friends, what to eat, whether or not I could watch TV, calling me crazy (because I must be "crazy" to disagree with him and his crappy abusive behavior, that's typical gaslighting), and yes, the stonewalling silent treatment if I dared to step out of bounds and simply be myself. It does take a while to get out of the mindset, yes, but the little joys and freedom to be yourself are worth it.
Signed,
Team Sweatpants Forevah
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 7:25 AM on October 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
I don't have children but I am on my second marriage. Leaving that marriage was tough but my god I can't thank myself enough for doing it. Getting out of an unhappy marriage is the best thing you can do for yourself.
posted by emotionalmotionsickness at 12:12 PM on October 16, 2018
posted by emotionalmotionsickness at 12:12 PM on October 16, 2018
My divorce was just finalized last week, so maybe I can provide a useful perspective for you. We were married for 20 years, two young kids and many, many ups and downs. Over the past few years, both of us were unhappy in the relationship. There was a lack of intimacy, no emotional support and a host of other issues as well. I told myself I would endure anything in the marriage to stay together for the kids. My therapist told me this probably wasn't a good idea, but I thought I knew better.
So without my knowing, my ex went out and hired a lawyer, had divorce papers drafted, came into my room one night and said, "I have some papers to give you." Now, there are some advantages to this kind of "rip off the band-aid" approach. There was no arguing. There was no negotiation or bargaining. She had clearly made up her mind. I think that probably made things easier.
In terms of the divorce, yes, it's been emotionally draining. It's a roller coaster of feelings and I haven't necessarily been handling things in the healthiest of ways. I'm an introvert, and my social network is pretty thin, but I've had people step up, seemingly out of nowhere, to offer help and support. But the key thing is, before the divorce, I felt like I was going to be miserable and unhappy every day for the rest of my life. Now I feel like eventually, once things stabilize, I can get back to feeling like myself again. So yes, it's painful, but at least I don't feel like it's going to be painful forever. I guess in the end, it was the right decision to make, even if I wasn't the one to make it.
posted by Otis at 12:14 PM on October 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
So without my knowing, my ex went out and hired a lawyer, had divorce papers drafted, came into my room one night and said, "I have some papers to give you." Now, there are some advantages to this kind of "rip off the band-aid" approach. There was no arguing. There was no negotiation or bargaining. She had clearly made up her mind. I think that probably made things easier.
In terms of the divorce, yes, it's been emotionally draining. It's a roller coaster of feelings and I haven't necessarily been handling things in the healthiest of ways. I'm an introvert, and my social network is pretty thin, but I've had people step up, seemingly out of nowhere, to offer help and support. But the key thing is, before the divorce, I felt like I was going to be miserable and unhappy every day for the rest of my life. Now I feel like eventually, once things stabilize, I can get back to feeling like myself again. So yes, it's painful, but at least I don't feel like it's going to be painful forever. I guess in the end, it was the right decision to make, even if I wasn't the one to make it.
posted by Otis at 12:14 PM on October 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Hey CrunchyPotato, I have never been divorced, but I remember reading about how much you were taking onto your plate (multiple jobs while pregnant, while you enlisted family members because he wasn't "safe" iirc to be around an infant, arranging space for and taking care of his FOUR children from a previous marriage while still working multiple jobs...) I am so glad you're finally seriously thinking about leaving. Please don't feel embarrassed that it hasn't happened yet. This is a process and you're doing really well.
About the actual question... A lot of your "pro" reasons really don't belong on the "stay" list, to my mind. I hope it's ok if I unpack some of them here:
# He has helped me do some personal (psychological) work and I feel like I owe him
I remember you talking in one of your first questions about doing a lot of personal work breaking toxic family anger cycles. I cannot stress what an accomplishment it has been for you to have done this work, and how upsetting it is to hear that your husband is trying to take credit for it or hold it over your head. You healed yourself. He might have been a decent partner at the time and supported you in doing that healing work. If there's anything you "owe him", it was something you offered, over and over again, for years-- you tried so damn hard to get him to manage his mental health issues, you were so ready to be a supportive partner to him while he tackled these problems, and he just refused, over and over and over again. That ship has sailed. He doesn't get credit for the psych work you did yourself, and you don't owe him anything.
#He is unconditionally loving in all but practical life sort of issues, and I wasn't raised with unconditional love, and I'm scared to give it up, or wonder if maybe the fact that I didn't have it means I don't know how to accept it like he says and this is all my fault, and maybe I just need to work harder on myself.
This is prima facie gaslighting and emotional abuse-- do you have any evidence that the love he is giving you is, in fact, unconditional, other than his claims that it is, while blaming you for not seeing how pure his love for you is? I wonder if the definition he's giving you of "unconditional" love is loving someone whether or not they have certain external achievements, like certain degrees, prestigious jobs, financial status, etc. This is a layered manipulation if you did grow up in an environment where being loved was conditional on an extremely high level of performance-- on the one hand, that's not healthy, and you deserve someone who loves you whether or not you got straight As or have a doctorate or whatever. But I think your husband is also using this very reductive, childish idea of "unconditional love" as a manipulation tool-- saying that he would love you if you weren't so stable and successful, so you have to love him unconditionally too, even though he refuses to meaningfully contribute to your relationship in any way. Can you see the difference? Other people have also brought up that grownup love shouldn't be unconditional-- the conditions might not be "be in the top 5% of your field and have a model perfect body", but more like "you must deal with your mental health/addiction issues and be a present partner and parent." I promise you will be able to find people who will love you for yourself, regardless of status markers-- the kind of love that I think you mean when you talk about unconditional love-- who aren't abusive parasites who demand that you enable them and call that "love".
I can also remember you telling Ask that this guy would call you a psychopath when you would get overwhelmed with fear and anxiety and melt down when you were working 2 or 3 jobs while heavily pregnant, and he was sitting around at home being willfully unemployed and playing video games all day. The way he was treating you then was not loving behavior, it was verbal, emotional, and financial abuse. It also isn't "unconditional" love-- it sounds like this guy has some very clear conditions under which he will show loving behavior to you, ie, if you let him do what he wants, and don't push him to do what he doesn't want to do (taking care of himself, taking care of his 5 kids, getting a job that's suitable to being a father of 5 rather than working at Gamestop, not spending all his money on video games). When you don't meet these conditions, he accuses you of being a psychopath. Not "unreasonable", not "we're having unhealthy conflict," but actually accusing you of having an immutable personality disorder. This isn't love, unconditional or no. It is abuse.
# He is the only person I've dated that made me feel like I am crazy and broken, but he really got in my head
I am so sorry he did this to you, but I'm really glad you're in a place where you can speak about it so clearly and candidly-- that you can say, "he really got in my head" even if you aren't quite at the step of being able to completely, unequivocally shed his false beliefs about you. You are not crazy and broken, and it takes a lot of strength to come to understand that someone you trusted to be a life partner has tried to make you feel that way about yourself. I would recommend individual therapy to talk about this in depth, but you've already made the most important step-- recognizing that you've been severely gaslighted, hurt and manipulated in this way.
and I'm afraid that he will try to get sole custody of our child due to his belief that I will cause our child psychological harm (I have "ammo" to fight that battle, but really do not want to)
This is the gaslighting talking, the cumulative effects of him making you "feel like I am crazy and broken." Realistically speaking, this guy is the noncustodial father of FOUR other children that he has shown no indication of stepping up to actively parent. It sounds like you, your organizational skills, the home you've been paying for, etc were the only reason he was even capable of hosting his four other kids for a summer-- he doesn't have the capacity, or the interest, in even part-time childcare. I also remember you trying to figure out logistics of infant care between your work cycle and an older family member of yours who was having health issues (your mom?) when your son was a baby, because, while your husband was supposedly a SAHD, he wasn't being a good or involved parent-- in fact he was such a bad parent that you actually felt (and, thanks to mefi, have documentation) that he was a danger to your child and couldn't be around the baby unsupervised. Whether that situation was due to untreated mental illness or not, that is a big fucking deal. If he tries to punish you by going for sole custody, which seems unlikely given his existing level of active involvement in his 5 (five) childrens' lives, it will be a shitty, ugly, abusive thing for him to do, but it's not going to go well for him.
I kind of want to elaborate on what other people upthread are saying-- You don't need his permission or agreement to leave him. You can't make him change. From your question history, you seem like someone who has a very, very high level of executive function. You know how to make things happen, you know how to push yourself to make what many people think are impossible or at least very difficult situations work-- working multiple jobs while heavily pregnant, organizing a household to take care of 5 kids while still working 2 or 3 jobs. Something I've noticed in people I love and know who have that skill of making things work by sheer willpower is that sometimes, that incredible life skill makes it hard to let go of interpersonal relationships that just aren't working-- because the limit of things you can make work is other people. Jubey points out that you have tried so, so hard to make this work, and it sounds like you really have. I think you've gradually let go of the hopes you had for the relationship and for your husband-- that he would start treating you respectfully, that he would be an involved and responsible father, that he would basically just get his act together. I think not knowing what to do in the face of him stonewalling or manipulating you into staying is the last thing you have to let go of here-- the hope that you can, somehow, if you work hard enough, get ANY kind of reasonable, good response out of him. Like hoping for him to agree that your marriage is unsustainable and work out an amicable split with you is another kind of wishing he would step up and be an adult, and it just isn't going to happen.
Anyway-- you're strong, and you're going to be a great mom to your toddler, and I know you will be able to handle this. Please take care of yourself. Your life after this relationship is going to be so much better, and you've deserved that for a long time.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 4:18 PM on October 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
About the actual question... A lot of your "pro" reasons really don't belong on the "stay" list, to my mind. I hope it's ok if I unpack some of them here:
# He has helped me do some personal (psychological) work and I feel like I owe him
I remember you talking in one of your first questions about doing a lot of personal work breaking toxic family anger cycles. I cannot stress what an accomplishment it has been for you to have done this work, and how upsetting it is to hear that your husband is trying to take credit for it or hold it over your head. You healed yourself. He might have been a decent partner at the time and supported you in doing that healing work. If there's anything you "owe him", it was something you offered, over and over again, for years-- you tried so damn hard to get him to manage his mental health issues, you were so ready to be a supportive partner to him while he tackled these problems, and he just refused, over and over and over again. That ship has sailed. He doesn't get credit for the psych work you did yourself, and you don't owe him anything.
#He is unconditionally loving in all but practical life sort of issues, and I wasn't raised with unconditional love, and I'm scared to give it up, or wonder if maybe the fact that I didn't have it means I don't know how to accept it like he says and this is all my fault, and maybe I just need to work harder on myself.
This is prima facie gaslighting and emotional abuse-- do you have any evidence that the love he is giving you is, in fact, unconditional, other than his claims that it is, while blaming you for not seeing how pure his love for you is? I wonder if the definition he's giving you of "unconditional" love is loving someone whether or not they have certain external achievements, like certain degrees, prestigious jobs, financial status, etc. This is a layered manipulation if you did grow up in an environment where being loved was conditional on an extremely high level of performance-- on the one hand, that's not healthy, and you deserve someone who loves you whether or not you got straight As or have a doctorate or whatever. But I think your husband is also using this very reductive, childish idea of "unconditional love" as a manipulation tool-- saying that he would love you if you weren't so stable and successful, so you have to love him unconditionally too, even though he refuses to meaningfully contribute to your relationship in any way. Can you see the difference? Other people have also brought up that grownup love shouldn't be unconditional-- the conditions might not be "be in the top 5% of your field and have a model perfect body", but more like "you must deal with your mental health/addiction issues and be a present partner and parent." I promise you will be able to find people who will love you for yourself, regardless of status markers-- the kind of love that I think you mean when you talk about unconditional love-- who aren't abusive parasites who demand that you enable them and call that "love".
I can also remember you telling Ask that this guy would call you a psychopath when you would get overwhelmed with fear and anxiety and melt down when you were working 2 or 3 jobs while heavily pregnant, and he was sitting around at home being willfully unemployed and playing video games all day. The way he was treating you then was not loving behavior, it was verbal, emotional, and financial abuse. It also isn't "unconditional" love-- it sounds like this guy has some very clear conditions under which he will show loving behavior to you, ie, if you let him do what he wants, and don't push him to do what he doesn't want to do (taking care of himself, taking care of his 5 kids, getting a job that's suitable to being a father of 5 rather than working at Gamestop, not spending all his money on video games). When you don't meet these conditions, he accuses you of being a psychopath. Not "unreasonable", not "we're having unhealthy conflict," but actually accusing you of having an immutable personality disorder. This isn't love, unconditional or no. It is abuse.
# He is the only person I've dated that made me feel like I am crazy and broken, but he really got in my head
I am so sorry he did this to you, but I'm really glad you're in a place where you can speak about it so clearly and candidly-- that you can say, "he really got in my head" even if you aren't quite at the step of being able to completely, unequivocally shed his false beliefs about you. You are not crazy and broken, and it takes a lot of strength to come to understand that someone you trusted to be a life partner has tried to make you feel that way about yourself. I would recommend individual therapy to talk about this in depth, but you've already made the most important step-- recognizing that you've been severely gaslighted, hurt and manipulated in this way.
and I'm afraid that he will try to get sole custody of our child due to his belief that I will cause our child psychological harm (I have "ammo" to fight that battle, but really do not want to)
This is the gaslighting talking, the cumulative effects of him making you "feel like I am crazy and broken." Realistically speaking, this guy is the noncustodial father of FOUR other children that he has shown no indication of stepping up to actively parent. It sounds like you, your organizational skills, the home you've been paying for, etc were the only reason he was even capable of hosting his four other kids for a summer-- he doesn't have the capacity, or the interest, in even part-time childcare. I also remember you trying to figure out logistics of infant care between your work cycle and an older family member of yours who was having health issues (your mom?) when your son was a baby, because, while your husband was supposedly a SAHD, he wasn't being a good or involved parent-- in fact he was such a bad parent that you actually felt (and, thanks to mefi, have documentation) that he was a danger to your child and couldn't be around the baby unsupervised. Whether that situation was due to untreated mental illness or not, that is a big fucking deal. If he tries to punish you by going for sole custody, which seems unlikely given his existing level of active involvement in his 5 (five) childrens' lives, it will be a shitty, ugly, abusive thing for him to do, but it's not going to go well for him.
I kind of want to elaborate on what other people upthread are saying-- You don't need his permission or agreement to leave him. You can't make him change. From your question history, you seem like someone who has a very, very high level of executive function. You know how to make things happen, you know how to push yourself to make what many people think are impossible or at least very difficult situations work-- working multiple jobs while heavily pregnant, organizing a household to take care of 5 kids while still working 2 or 3 jobs. Something I've noticed in people I love and know who have that skill of making things work by sheer willpower is that sometimes, that incredible life skill makes it hard to let go of interpersonal relationships that just aren't working-- because the limit of things you can make work is other people. Jubey points out that you have tried so, so hard to make this work, and it sounds like you really have. I think you've gradually let go of the hopes you had for the relationship and for your husband-- that he would start treating you respectfully, that he would be an involved and responsible father, that he would basically just get his act together. I think not knowing what to do in the face of him stonewalling or manipulating you into staying is the last thing you have to let go of here-- the hope that you can, somehow, if you work hard enough, get ANY kind of reasonable, good response out of him. Like hoping for him to agree that your marriage is unsustainable and work out an amicable split with you is another kind of wishing he would step up and be an adult, and it just isn't going to happen.
Anyway-- you're strong, and you're going to be a great mom to your toddler, and I know you will be able to handle this. Please take care of yourself. Your life after this relationship is going to be so much better, and you've deserved that for a long time.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 4:18 PM on October 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Start by opening a new bank account, one that he neither knows about nor has access to. Make sure it's at a different bank. If he isn't supposed to have access to your account, immediately switch your direct deposit (etc) to the new account. If you normally have a shared account, look into transferring half, or a quarter, or a tenth of each paycheck into your new account.
This way, no matter how long you spend trying to decide how to take one of the big, drastic, can't-go-back steps, you're collecting resources he can't touch in the meantime.
1) It does not matter how much he's helped you, how good he's been in the past, what amazing things he's done for you - you do not owe him your misery. You are not obligated to remain at his side and help him feel comfortable while you slowly strangle. If he thinks you owe him for past deeds, and you agree, the two of you can discuss some kind of repayment that doesn't make you miserably unhappy. After all, him doing whatever it was that helped you, didn't make him miserably unhappy.
2) He's not going to change as long as you stay with him, and there's about a 95% chance that he's not going to change; when you leave (start saying that to yourself: when I leave, not if I leave), odds are, he's going to find a fresh victim.
3) Kids are better off with a split home than with happy parents who hate each other, than with parents living together who are miserable.
4) If you stay, you're teaching your kid that good, loving adults put up with situations that make them miserable.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:52 PM on October 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
This way, no matter how long you spend trying to decide how to take one of the big, drastic, can't-go-back steps, you're collecting resources he can't touch in the meantime.
1) It does not matter how much he's helped you, how good he's been in the past, what amazing things he's done for you - you do not owe him your misery. You are not obligated to remain at his side and help him feel comfortable while you slowly strangle. If he thinks you owe him for past deeds, and you agree, the two of you can discuss some kind of repayment that doesn't make you miserably unhappy. After all, him doing whatever it was that helped you, didn't make him miserably unhappy.
2) He's not going to change as long as you stay with him, and there's about a 95% chance that he's not going to change; when you leave (start saying that to yourself: when I leave, not if I leave), odds are, he's going to find a fresh victim.
3) Kids are better off with a split home than with happy parents who hate each other, than with parents living together who are miserable.
4) If you stay, you're teaching your kid that good, loving adults put up with situations that make them miserable.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:52 PM on October 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
So, I was the husband in a similar situation and from that perspective, I echo the sentiments above.
He may change after you leave, EridLordFreedom's 5% chance of that happening echoes my experience.
There is a zero percent chance he will change with you there, if that was possible he would have done so already.
You have the right to be happy, the right to be loved and the right to leave.
You do not need permission.
Your kid will be fine, they have an excellent mother.
Good Luck.
posted by fullerine at 12:40 AM on October 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
He may change after you leave, EridLordFreedom's 5% chance of that happening echoes my experience.
There is a zero percent chance he will change with you there, if that was possible he would have done so already.
You have the right to be happy, the right to be loved and the right to leave.
You do not need permission.
Your kid will be fine, they have an excellent mother.
Good Luck.
posted by fullerine at 12:40 AM on October 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Be careful with financial stuff - having "secret" accounts can come back to bite you later, especially if you're the breadwinner.
posted by k8t at 5:50 PM on October 17, 2018
posted by k8t at 5:50 PM on October 17, 2018
Response by poster: Thanks everyone. Reading my previous posts was eye opening. In many ways things have improved, but I also don't want to allow certain dysfunctional patterns of relating to make me downplay aspects of my situation. I accept that I am not without fault, but I also accept that I've been manipulated into taking more than my fair share of the blame.
I'm finding it helpful to read things like this also, as a kind of deprogramming. Sharing in case anyone in a similar situation finds this post in a search.
posted by crunchy potato at 4:10 AM on October 18, 2018
I'm finding it helpful to read things like this also, as a kind of deprogramming. Sharing in case anyone in a similar situation finds this post in a search.
posted by crunchy potato at 4:10 AM on October 18, 2018
having "secret" accounts can come back to bite you later
Yeah, don't try to hide the account from the courts. Just let them know you wanted something he can't spend.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:34 PM on October 18, 2018
Yeah, don't try to hide the account from the courts. Just let them know you wanted something he can't spend.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:34 PM on October 18, 2018
I relate a lot to your question, to your situation. It was very very difficult for me to finally end my marriage, and many of the dynamics that moonlight in vermont describes were present in my marriage as well.
A few things that I would offer, gently:
I notice the element of confusion in your OP. Like, you're a smart and eminently capable person who can manage almost superhuman levels of stress and complication, and in this situation you're stuck and just cannot figure it out.
I also lived in that state in my marriage for years. Years.
Much farther along, when I was divorcing, I attended a parenting class for divorcing parents. The presenter pointed out that when marriages are failing, people experience the five stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, sadness, acceptance. In retrospect, I now understand that those years of confusion were the denial part, were the situation where there was a truth in my life that was so life-shatteringly painful that I really could not allow myself to take it in. I think that is what's going on for you, too, that sense of confusion.
It's not for me to articulate exactly what that truth is for you. But I think the best way to finally get unstuck is to find a safe space to pull that awful truth out, and finally really feel it, confront it. And also to process the anger and the bargaining and the sadness that have probably already been swirling around in your mind and heart as well. If you don't have a counselor you like and trust, it's a good idea to find one and get started on that work.
A few books that might help you are Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That, and Mira Kirschenbaum's Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay. It can help to see what people who are experienced about relationships dynamic, and totally removed from your own so completely objective, have to say about what makes a relationship healthy or unhealthy.
All my best to you in a really, really hard situation.
posted by Sublimity at 5:51 AM on October 19, 2018
A few things that I would offer, gently:
I notice the element of confusion in your OP. Like, you're a smart and eminently capable person who can manage almost superhuman levels of stress and complication, and in this situation you're stuck and just cannot figure it out.
I also lived in that state in my marriage for years. Years.
Much farther along, when I was divorcing, I attended a parenting class for divorcing parents. The presenter pointed out that when marriages are failing, people experience the five stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, sadness, acceptance. In retrospect, I now understand that those years of confusion were the denial part, were the situation where there was a truth in my life that was so life-shatteringly painful that I really could not allow myself to take it in. I think that is what's going on for you, too, that sense of confusion.
It's not for me to articulate exactly what that truth is for you. But I think the best way to finally get unstuck is to find a safe space to pull that awful truth out, and finally really feel it, confront it. And also to process the anger and the bargaining and the sadness that have probably already been swirling around in your mind and heart as well. If you don't have a counselor you like and trust, it's a good idea to find one and get started on that work.
A few books that might help you are Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That, and Mira Kirschenbaum's Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay. It can help to see what people who are experienced about relationships dynamic, and totally removed from your own so completely objective, have to say about what makes a relationship healthy or unhealthy.
All my best to you in a really, really hard situation.
posted by Sublimity at 5:51 AM on October 19, 2018
« Older My phone is auto-answering spam calls. Please... | Legal structures for a four-person partnership? Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by crunchy potato at 6:12 PM on October 15, 2018