How should New Yorkers counter recent white nationalism and fascism?

October 15, 2018 7:55 AM

We have had recent public displays of white nationalism/fascism-lite in New York City. What are good ways to respond to and counter this, from the small to the big?

Recent troubling activity in NYC includes a banner drop by Identity Evropa, a series of anti-immigrant flyers, and street assaults from the Proud Boys (more on the Proud Boys attacks here and here).

What are all the ways to respond and counter this? I'm looking for ideas for individuals, community groups, politicians, the police, and more.

How can individuals protect each other? How can our communities band together? How do we overwhelm or intimidate these hateful group? What should we pressure politicians to say and do? How can city businesses aid these efforts?

We're still in the process of brainstorming, and we are open to any ideas to consider about how we can counter these groups.

posted by davidstandaford to Society & Culture (19 answers total)

I'm a somewhat progressive NYCer who has lots of friends and outside of this question and another question on metafilter, I didn't even know about these public displays. So these type of things probably need to get shared in more mainstream outlets like NYT,NYD, local news.
posted by sandmanwv at 8:07 AM on October 15, 2018 [3 favorites]

Just two days ago, I saw a post-it note on the subway saying "Odin Rise on YouTube". Assuming it was some white nationalist bullshit, I took it down (in a courageous act of maintenance of the civil order. Everyone should admire me for my direct action). On googling, I'm still not sure what it referred to, though. I found some flat earth videos under Odin Rising, and my kid says he found an R&B playlist. So, dunno?

The banner drop was in my neighborhood, and it was sort of a sneak attack -- if there had been any warning that it was going to happen beforehand, neighborhood people would have swamped the white nationalists. I don't know what to do about that sort of thing, though.
posted by LizardBreath at 8:22 AM on October 15, 2018

See how you might support minority/nonwhite community groups in your neighborhood. It's likely they're already doing some of this work.
posted by kapers at 8:34 AM on October 15, 2018 [6 favorites]

Not a New Yorker here. What about doing your own banner drops and pickets? What about putting up pro-immigrant flyers, giving out pro-immigrant buttons, putting up anti-white-nationalist flyers, giving out anti-white nationalist buttons and stickers, etc. As you say, it seems likely that passively-anti-white-nationalist New Yorkers vastly outnumber IE and other groups, so making yourselves visible to each other might help.

Also, if you're truly just brainstorming stuff, why not email your local CAIR or immigrants' rights groups and ask what kinds of help they need? Can you put on public benefit evening of some kind? That can be anything from a lot of work to a potluck/movie night at a local space to a house party, depending on what kind of extended social circle you're talking about.

I have not been part of this at all, but I know that the MPLS IWW has had a bunch of success with music events at a friendly local bar - these function as benefits and get-togethers, and they've ranged from local talent (IWW house band, basically; some DJs that someone knows) to touring bands.

Friendly local businesses can donate space or materials for benefits and allow you to promote them in their windows.

If this were me here, with the exception of simple things like flyers and bannering I would try to avoid starting from scratch unless I had a strong friend group who were all in. I would try to connect with anyone doing anti-racist work and find out what they're doing and who their connections are. In MPLS, that would be the IWW, left-leaning immigrant organizations, left labor orgs, left law firms, independent bookstores and art spaces, the array of organizations that grew out of Black Lives Matter, etc. Some of this would just be "let's see what their Facebook/website says".
posted by Frowner at 8:36 AM on October 15, 2018 [3 favorites]

One more short note: here in MPLS, independent bannering, small pickets and postering have been pretty successful - people have just decided, "well, my family is going to do a banner drop today" or whatever. If you do that, keep your message simple and direct, run it through the internet machine to check that it will be understood the way you want it to be, etc.

Also, if you are part of a network of interested New Yorkers, you'll be able to activate when you do hear about the the Proud Boys or others showing up. As you know, you need a big network to make that safe.
posted by Frowner at 8:40 AM on October 15, 2018 [3 favorites]

For those seeking media coverage of this within NYC, or those coming across such public displays and seeking a media outlet to alert: Gothamist has been doing an okay job of covering this and has an anonymous tipline. (Unfortunately, their comment section runs on disqus, so, uh, probably don't read the comments.) They seem to do a better job of reporting on this than other NYC outlets, since plenty of those outlets are on the conservative side; their media reach is smaller, of course, though they are partnered with NY Public Radio.

"Odin Rising" is a Flat Earth YouTuber trying to get more views. There's plenty of crossover with more unsavoury types within that community of thought, and it's not like we need more people getting duped by hour-long videos that misrepresent how basic physics works, but I don't think the channel is explicitly white-nationalist (despite the name). Feel free to dispose of those post-its, tho.
posted by halation at 9:34 AM on October 15, 2018 [2 favorites]

If you're interested in getting involved, your local socialist/BLM/ Grassroots organization is probably the best way to go. You don't have to be super involved to learn about fascist actions/ take part in protests.
posted by kingdead at 9:46 AM on October 15, 2018

Basically, I think there are two answers. First, general anti-racist pro immigrant politics -- there's plenty of that in NYC, there should always be more, it's easy to find something reputable to join up with, but this isn't a hard problem. Find good stuff to do, do stuff, show up, give money, whatever.

And then there's specifically countering white nationalist actions. And... I may be overly sanguine about my city, but I don't think there's anyplace much in the city where white nationalists/racists could announce an event publicly ahead of time that wouldn't get swamped by decent people. Like, not even organized activisty types, just outraged randos. The stuff in the original post was all hit-and-run stuff, where there wasn't time and information to organize a response. That seems like a genuinely hard problem to me -- if they have a couple of dozen people who can plan to show up somewhere and do something fast, there's not an obvious way to stop that from happening.
posted by LizardBreath at 9:51 AM on October 15, 2018

Response by poster: To be clear, part of the impetus for this question was this twitter thread by Emily Gorcenski, which notes that traditional modes of ant fascist organizing don't seem to be as effective against the Proud Boys.
posted by davidstandaford at 10:08 AM on October 15, 2018

If you want to support immigrants in NYC and state, you want to be looking at Make the Road NY.

There's nothing stopping you from doing your own individual flyering/banner drops, though.
posted by praemunire at 11:53 AM on October 15, 2018

The white nationalists are coordinated in their efforts, and getting better organized all the time. If we want to counter them effectively, we need to be well organized, too. That means joining a group. I organize with the Democratic Socialists of America, the largest chapter of which happens to be in NYC. You don't have to join that group in particular -- there are lots doing anti-racist work, so take your pick -- but countering fascism means responding on a level beyond the individual.
posted by ludwig_van at 12:05 PM on October 15, 2018

Response by poster: I'm involved with various groups in NYC already. Because of the recent flurry of public activities by the alt-right/fascist-lite in NYC, we are looking for ideas about what tactics will be most effective.
posted by davidstandaford at 12:10 PM on October 15, 2018

Respectfully -- specific tactics need to be discussed in person with people you're organizing with and trust, not on a public web site. It will depend on the details of your local terrain, the capacity of your personnel, and can potentially be sensitive.
posted by ludwig_van at 12:20 PM on October 15, 2018 [8 favorites]

So what about working backwards from what you think the Proud Boys are achieving and then working by a different method to undercut that?

Like, if the Proud Boys are basically street-brawling provocateurs whose primary goal is to make the left look bad/create an "equivalency" in people's minds between racists and anti-racists, what can the anti-racists do to make themselves look strong, decent and principled in the public eye? That seems like the easier question, because it seems like the kinds of things the DSA is already doing - community service initiatives that are highly visible, for instance.

If they are provocateurs, what can be done if they just escalate that doesn't play into their narrative? Is there a way to pre-empt them, because if they're just going to beat people until they get a response, they control the narrative? I still think that either avoiding them (so that if they do attack people it will obviously be simple assault) or dramatically outnumbering them without physically engaging them is probably the only response. If they're going to be in town and you have notice, can you do counter-events like teach-ins or gatherings away from the site?

It seems like the questions are basically, "How can the left win the publicity war" and "how can the left keep their people safe given that the cops won't help and that fighting is bad for PR"?

Also, maybe you can win by taking some kind of intentionally anti-macho tactic? The Proud Boys don't look so great if they're punching a nun your grandma's age, for instance, and there are some pretty fierce nuns, retirees, etc out there. It's easy for the Proud Boys to punch a left that's all macho'd up. Obviously, we know that they are not literally afraid to attack older people, disabled people, mothers, etc, but you don't win the propaganda war that way. It's also a lot tougher for the cops to say "just you carry on beating that nice retired gentleman, go ahead" than for them to turn their backs while a young man gets curb stomped.
posted by Frowner at 12:27 PM on October 15, 2018 [10 favorites]

This is a bit confusing. Are you asking this as antifa? If not, find them.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:00 PM on October 15, 2018

Response by poster: This is a bit confusing. Are you asking this as antifa? If not, find them.

Antifa isn't an organization, it's a strategy and a tactic. One big part of this question is how different organizations who are new to this can engage in more international and successful anti fascist organizing.
posted by davidstandaford at 2:10 PM on October 15, 2018

Antifa isn't an organization, it's a strategy and a tactic. One big part of this question is how different organizations who are new to this can engage in more international and successful anti fascist organizing.

Okay, sure. But, there are plenty of folks who call themselves antifa, who are engaged in this work. If you are specifically not interested in the work being done under the umbrella of antifa, then you are really limiting your options, as lots of organizations have some coordination with work being done under the antifa umbrella.

For example, some folks organizing under that umbrella spend time at events that draw in a lot of people of color, to have someone there who recognizes Proud Boys and others who might show up to harass people. You can do this kind of observation and reporting out without yourself being confrontational. You can organize with a group of people to stand outside mosques if worshippers are being harassed.

There seems to be a lot more context to your question than you are asking here, so it's difficult to answer.

I do think disavowing antifa can be counterproductive and feed into unreasonable fears of that work. Have you done much reading on antifascism, historically? Mark Bray's book Antifa: The Anti-Fasicst Handbook is well-regarded. You could at least read the New Yorker review of it, if you haven't already.

But I'm not sure your question as asked is really answerable. You are asking, how can I affect social change right now in this time and place in this specific context without working with the folks who are attempting to do that already? I think only a historian from the future can answer that.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:41 PM on October 15, 2018 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: I'm asking for strategies and tactics to use against groups like the Proud Boys.

Here is an example: Anti-far right protest in Berlin attracts more than 240,000, say organisers – video

Another example: 37 Organizations and a Regional Organization Representing Over 50 Tribes Denounce Bigotry and Violence before Patriot Prayer and Proud Boys Rally in Portland on August 4

Another example: This New Feminist Antifa Group Is Taking on the Far-Right

Another example: German town tricks neo-Nazis into raising thousands of euros for anti-extremist charity

I would love a list of 25 or 30 ideas to talk about or consider in NYC.
posted by davidstandaford at 3:38 PM on October 15, 2018

You could reach out to, and consider joining, the NYC General Defense Committee. It's a subcommittee of the IWW. They will probably be involved in some sort of antifascist work in NYC, and you could work with them directly by joining them.
posted by spinifex23 at 11:22 PM on October 15, 2018 [1 favorite]