What are reasonable boundaries touchy political topics?
October 8, 2018 11:51 AM Subscribe
Hi! It's me again, this time I need help figuring out reasonable boundaries with potentially political topics to avoid fights with family. It would be easiest just to avoid everything, but that's not feasible. While I am ready to just cut ties with all of my associates who haven't disavowed the GOP at this point, I also don't want my kid to not have relationships with their grandparents/aunts/uncles. So how do we do this now?
All my questions have been iterations of this problem and part of the problem is that shit keeps getting worse. I will also admit that I'm worn out, exhausted, and as a result ready to shut things down in the least diplomatic way possible or just avoid people who I know want to uphold the status quo (or are fine with fascist leanings). My in-laws are moving to where we live, and I don't want my kid to not have a relationship with them but I also don't want them to think that their politics are remotely acceptable. In talking to my partner it's clear we need to have reasonable boundaries on topics such that if they try to engage in tangentially political talk we can tell them we're not going to participate and then leave if it continues.
So where should we draw the line and on what topics? Like I know that talking about the weather should be fine, but if it's about how unseasonably nice it is, then I can't stop thinking about climate change and how our behavior is burning up the planet. Or buying a new car and going with a fancy SUV because the safety of the driver and occupants are more important than those outside the vehicle (or the planet). I feel like I am a little too prone to make every thing related to politics, racism, and class warfare and I recognize that it's not sustainable or healthy. But at the same time, I tend to give people a lot of leeway when I am trying to be a "good person" and tolerate their different views when I know they would never afford me that consideration (because they most likely haven't even thought about that).
So help Metafilter! What are reasonable boundaries for not engaging or witnessing political soapboxes? And is there a way to affirm those boundaries to make it clear it's not because we're too sensitive, but because we don't tolerate fascism or authoritarian rule at all?
All my questions have been iterations of this problem and part of the problem is that shit keeps getting worse. I will also admit that I'm worn out, exhausted, and as a result ready to shut things down in the least diplomatic way possible or just avoid people who I know want to uphold the status quo (or are fine with fascist leanings). My in-laws are moving to where we live, and I don't want my kid to not have a relationship with them but I also don't want them to think that their politics are remotely acceptable. In talking to my partner it's clear we need to have reasonable boundaries on topics such that if they try to engage in tangentially political talk we can tell them we're not going to participate and then leave if it continues.
So where should we draw the line and on what topics? Like I know that talking about the weather should be fine, but if it's about how unseasonably nice it is, then I can't stop thinking about climate change and how our behavior is burning up the planet. Or buying a new car and going with a fancy SUV because the safety of the driver and occupants are more important than those outside the vehicle (or the planet). I feel like I am a little too prone to make every thing related to politics, racism, and class warfare and I recognize that it's not sustainable or healthy. But at the same time, I tend to give people a lot of leeway when I am trying to be a "good person" and tolerate their different views when I know they would never afford me that consideration (because they most likely haven't even thought about that).
So help Metafilter! What are reasonable boundaries for not engaging or witnessing political soapboxes? And is there a way to affirm those boundaries to make it clear it's not because we're too sensitive, but because we don't tolerate fascism or authoritarian rule at all?
On your second question - "is there a way to affirm those boundaries to make it clear it's not because we're too sensitive, but because we don't tolerate fascism or authoritarian rule at all?" - the answer is no, not if you want to have any sort of good relationship. You can't tell them that they are fascists or authoritarians, and expect them to accept that without arguing back. You can't even say "I can't talk about that with you or hear you say it, and the problem is not me, it's you because you are so wrong," and expect them to accept that. If they want to think you are too sensitive, they can think that.
posted by sheldman at 12:05 PM on October 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by sheldman at 12:05 PM on October 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
Well, statements like "What a racist thing to say," or "I wouldn't let my daughters be in that man's presence for five minutes, let alone put him in charge of deciding their futures," or "science was right about gravity/electricity and it's probably right about climate change" or "Immigrants have a better claim to this land than white people do," (followed by icy silence) are perfectly civil, let the other party know where you stand, demonstrate to your children how to stand up for your beliefs, -and- make it incrementally less socially acceptable to voice hateful things out loud.
(I'm not sure we are still in a moment where being diplomatic or "tolerant" is especially important.)
posted by coffeeand at 12:05 PM on October 8, 2018 [25 favorites]
(I'm not sure we are still in a moment where being diplomatic or "tolerant" is especially important.)
posted by coffeeand at 12:05 PM on October 8, 2018 [25 favorites]
I don't disagree with coffeeand, either, but those suggestions are not a way of *avoiding* discussion, and I think that's what you were asking?
posted by sheldman at 12:09 PM on October 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by sheldman at 12:09 PM on October 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Two things here:
First, it's 100% reasonable to simply say to these people some version of, "I like you and I like spending time with you. But we both know that our political views are on opposite ends of the spectrum. How about we just not to talk politics when we are together, so we can enjoy each other's company and not end up debating politics?" If they agree and they occasionally inject political viewpoints into your conversations, it's pretty easy to say, "You know we don't agree on these things, so let's steer clear of that discussion."
Second, you have to do this yourself. If you can't stop thinking about how GOP policies are contributing to global warming every time someone mentions the weather, you're going to have to keep that to yourself when you're around these people. One thing I've noticed is that people on both sides of the spectrum find it difficult to refrain from engaging their opposites in political discussion, and your post suggests that you are frequently the one who steers a discussion into a political debate. You have to resist this urge when spending time with your in-laws just as much as you would like them to do so. To make an example, it's not realistic or fair to expect that a right-leaning conversational counterpoint will never speak in favor trickle-down economics when one is continually speaking about class struggle.
As for what your kids may pick up from them . . . I think kids are smarter than that. They're unlikely to suddenly start thinking bad things about immigrants based on spending some time with their MAGA hat-wearing in-laws, especially when they know full well that their parents find that thinking despicable. If you discover that the in-laws are trying to engage your kids in meaningful political discussion when you're not around in order to change their views, that's when they get one warning before being cut off from unsupervised time with your kids.
posted by slkinsey at 12:20 PM on October 8, 2018 [21 favorites]
First, it's 100% reasonable to simply say to these people some version of, "I like you and I like spending time with you. But we both know that our political views are on opposite ends of the spectrum. How about we just not to talk politics when we are together, so we can enjoy each other's company and not end up debating politics?" If they agree and they occasionally inject political viewpoints into your conversations, it's pretty easy to say, "You know we don't agree on these things, so let's steer clear of that discussion."
Second, you have to do this yourself. If you can't stop thinking about how GOP policies are contributing to global warming every time someone mentions the weather, you're going to have to keep that to yourself when you're around these people. One thing I've noticed is that people on both sides of the spectrum find it difficult to refrain from engaging their opposites in political discussion, and your post suggests that you are frequently the one who steers a discussion into a political debate. You have to resist this urge when spending time with your in-laws just as much as you would like them to do so. To make an example, it's not realistic or fair to expect that a right-leaning conversational counterpoint will never speak in favor trickle-down economics when one is continually speaking about class struggle.
As for what your kids may pick up from them . . . I think kids are smarter than that. They're unlikely to suddenly start thinking bad things about immigrants based on spending some time with their MAGA hat-wearing in-laws, especially when they know full well that their parents find that thinking despicable. If you discover that the in-laws are trying to engage your kids in meaningful political discussion when you're not around in order to change their views, that's when they get one warning before being cut off from unsupervised time with your kids.
posted by slkinsey at 12:20 PM on October 8, 2018 [21 favorites]
You don't have to make this tense. Just say, "oh, no politics talk!" and change the subject. Every time. No slippery slopes. Sooner or later they will catch on. If there needs to be a Serious Talk on the matter, your partner should address it directly with them without involving you. I have people in my family I know support Trump and, while they aren't my best friends, I acknowledge they are kind and pleasant people who love my nieces and nephews and make really good mashed potatoes. And they know that not everybody is a Trump supporter and therefore none of us ever addresses politics in any way, shape, or form.
I will say, also, that your examples seem a bit extreme even to me, and I'm pretty liberal. Plenty of very nice people doing good work for liberal causes drive SUVs, or run the hell out of their air conditioning in the summer, or use plastic bags, or whatever. Nobody living in this world can be perfect, and we all pick our battles. Assume the best of people - that they are trying in their own way to make the world better. Even if it's not true, it's a less stressful approach than keeping a running tally in your head of all the ways people are ruining the planet.
posted by something something at 12:28 PM on October 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
I will say, also, that your examples seem a bit extreme even to me, and I'm pretty liberal. Plenty of very nice people doing good work for liberal causes drive SUVs, or run the hell out of their air conditioning in the summer, or use plastic bags, or whatever. Nobody living in this world can be perfect, and we all pick our battles. Assume the best of people - that they are trying in their own way to make the world better. Even if it's not true, it's a less stressful approach than keeping a running tally in your head of all the ways people are ruining the planet.
posted by something something at 12:28 PM on October 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
I don't want my kid to not have a relationship with them
This would be the exact opposite approach that something something suggests, but maybe turn this around and play hardball with them: say "if you want to have a relationship with my kid, you will be silent on political topics." They can make their choice and they can accept the consequences of their choice. Obviously your spouse needs to support this approach, which could be difficult, and you need to stick to your position.
posted by adamrice at 12:39 PM on October 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
This would be the exact opposite approach that something something suggests, but maybe turn this around and play hardball with them: say "if you want to have a relationship with my kid, you will be silent on political topics." They can make their choice and they can accept the consequences of their choice. Obviously your spouse needs to support this approach, which could be difficult, and you need to stick to your position.
posted by adamrice at 12:39 PM on October 8, 2018 [9 favorites]
Agree with adamrice, but I'd change "political topics" to "abjectly racist statements". Perhaps these questions bring out the keyboard warriors in all of us and feel free to delete if it doesn't help with your question, but these people need to understand that their abhorrent views have an impact that goes beyond typical politics. "Whoa now let's table the politics talk" is for heated debates over tax policy and zoning laws, not abject racism and facism.
posted by windbox at 12:51 PM on October 8, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by windbox at 12:51 PM on October 8, 2018 [10 favorites]
Some answers here are suggesting that the OP was saying that the in-laws make racist statements. Maybe they do, maybe they don't; but I don't see that in the original post. I think that lines can usefully if not perfectly be drawn between bigotry (that's awful, don't say that around me without expecting pushback and don't say it around my kids), politics (let's not talk about that), and impliedly-indirectly-maybe-makes-me-think-political like "I am thinking of buying an SUV" or "it is unseasonably warm isn't it?"
posted by sheldman at 12:58 PM on October 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by sheldman at 12:58 PM on October 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
These topics go far beyond politics. Science denial, misogyny and racism have been MADE political lately but they are not and you are well within your rights to ban such talk from you and your child's life. In-laws can like it or lump it, it's time they learned there are consequences to their actions and that they can't handwave it all away with "politics". Basic human decency is not political.
Also while you're at it you should go by their new place and use the parental controls to turn off Fox. Delightfully petty, and maybe they'll watch something less for a while.
posted by fshgrl at 1:18 PM on October 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Also while you're at it you should go by their new place and use the parental controls to turn off Fox. Delightfully petty, and maybe they'll watch something less for a while.
posted by fshgrl at 1:18 PM on October 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Politics and religion were traditional topics not to be discussed in social gatherings for this very reason. People who violate that rule are at the very least discourteous.
If they don't stop when asked to do so, that's the sign they're more interested in haranguing you than socializing with you. In that circumstance, it's perfectly okay to remove yourself and your kids. Frankly, your kids would probably be thankful. They're probably not enjoying watching their relatives pick on their parents.
I had a family gathering this past weekend to celebrate our very elderly mom's birthday. Most of the now-senior-citizen-aged "kids" behaved themselves, but one brother deliberately picked his favorite topic to pick a fight with: He loves to kill animals. He loves to upset "libruls" by describing at length and in great detail just how he kills animals. He enjoys seeing his siblings and their grandkids get angry and/or cry.
Your relatives are doing the same thing, just using a different topic. Don't expose your kids to that. You can tell them they're free to re-establish their relationships with their relatives on their own terms once they get older, but for the time being, you're all better off avoiding them.
posted by Lunaloon at 2:26 PM on October 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
If they don't stop when asked to do so, that's the sign they're more interested in haranguing you than socializing with you. In that circumstance, it's perfectly okay to remove yourself and your kids. Frankly, your kids would probably be thankful. They're probably not enjoying watching their relatives pick on their parents.
I had a family gathering this past weekend to celebrate our very elderly mom's birthday. Most of the now-senior-citizen-aged "kids" behaved themselves, but one brother deliberately picked his favorite topic to pick a fight with: He loves to kill animals. He loves to upset "libruls" by describing at length and in great detail just how he kills animals. He enjoys seeing his siblings and their grandkids get angry and/or cry.
Your relatives are doing the same thing, just using a different topic. Don't expose your kids to that. You can tell them they're free to re-establish their relationships with their relatives on their own terms once they get older, but for the time being, you're all better off avoiding them.
posted by Lunaloon at 2:26 PM on October 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Look, I have a family where pretty much everyone is basically on the same page politically, but when at a family weekend in the mountains the other day, one of us started talking about the recent confirmation of a rapist and perjurer to the Supreme Court, I said quite firmly, "Please don't talk about that," and then stood up and left the room for a minute. Didn't even give them a chance to protest, just left, brushed my teeth, and came back.
It was fine.
Point is, you can draw your boundaries wherever you need to. If something upsets you, you aren't required to listen to it—not in social settings, anyway. You don't need to justify it and you don't need to negotiate. You alone are the arbiter of what people can say in your presence. Be as firm as you feel you need to be to get your point across. Don't feel bad about it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:59 PM on October 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
It was fine.
Point is, you can draw your boundaries wherever you need to. If something upsets you, you aren't required to listen to it—not in social settings, anyway. You don't need to justify it and you don't need to negotiate. You alone are the arbiter of what people can say in your presence. Be as firm as you feel you need to be to get your point across. Don't feel bad about it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:59 PM on October 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Best answer: My parents sound similar to your in-laws, and we tried the "no political conversations" rule for a while with limited success. Example:
Mom: Have you heard from [high school friend of mine] lately? How is he?
Me: Great, he and his husband just moved to [city].
Mom: I thought you said you didn't want to talk about politics anymore!
Another example:
Dad: *gets cut off by a woman in an SUV; makes sexist remark about woman drivers*
Me: ok, that's actually a pretty sexist thing to say because *explanations*
Dad: I thought you said you didn't want to talk about politics anymore!
The only things I found that worked are:
1) limiting myself to an extremely small range of topics. Animals, babies, and crafts/hobbies are my go-tos. Pets will get you a long way - my pets, their pets, the neighbor's pets, pets we used to have when I was a kid.
2) steering the conversation ruthlessly when it strays. Ignore the bait, because it will be offered. Instead, does anyone remember that kitten we found that one time 15 years ago? It was so cute!
3) extremely short visits, because that shit is exhausting and I have so many better things to do with my life
It's not impossible, but it is hard, and the rewards are extremely limited.
posted by Basil Stag Hare at 5:28 PM on October 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Mom: Have you heard from [high school friend of mine] lately? How is he?
Me: Great, he and his husband just moved to [city].
Mom: I thought you said you didn't want to talk about politics anymore!
Another example:
Dad: *gets cut off by a woman in an SUV; makes sexist remark about woman drivers*
Me: ok, that's actually a pretty sexist thing to say because *explanations*
Dad: I thought you said you didn't want to talk about politics anymore!
The only things I found that worked are:
1) limiting myself to an extremely small range of topics. Animals, babies, and crafts/hobbies are my go-tos. Pets will get you a long way - my pets, their pets, the neighbor's pets, pets we used to have when I was a kid.
2) steering the conversation ruthlessly when it strays. Ignore the bait, because it will be offered. Instead, does anyone remember that kitten we found that one time 15 years ago? It was so cute!
3) extremely short visits, because that shit is exhausting and I have so many better things to do with my life
It's not impossible, but it is hard, and the rewards are extremely limited.
posted by Basil Stag Hare at 5:28 PM on October 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Avoiding the subject entirely is probably the best idea. I would even try giving them a heads up through your significant other: We're super tired of politics and are really trying to take a break.
posted by xammerboy at 5:59 PM on October 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by xammerboy at 5:59 PM on October 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Yep, avoid any touchy topics that you know will be an issue (politics, climate change, etc). If your relative brings up a touchy topic, you can gently say "this is something we disagree on so let's agree to disagree and talk about something else. How bout that sports team!"
But you have to do it too. You mention that talk of unseasonably nice weather makes you think about climate change. I get it, me too. But you need to keep the climate change thoughts in your head and don't say anything out loud about them, otherwise you are the one causing problems.
posted by whitelily at 7:01 PM on October 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
But you have to do it too. You mention that talk of unseasonably nice weather makes you think about climate change. I get it, me too. But you need to keep the climate change thoughts in your head and don't say anything out loud about them, otherwise you are the one causing problems.
posted by whitelily at 7:01 PM on October 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I think you can and should cut off Trump talk, but overtly fashy shit is different than them running the AC or buying an SUV. It kind of sounds like maybe you’re in “Person Eating Crackers” mode about them, where you find everything irritating? Like, you really have to separate out the fascist/authoritarian shit from “vaguely status quo” if you’re going to draw a hard line there.
posted by corb at 10:58 PM on October 8, 2018
posted by corb at 10:58 PM on October 8, 2018
The thing with boundaries is they're not magic wands. You can get them to not talk about capital P politics but their racism will manifest in countless conscious and unconscious ways outwith capital P politics. You'd have to coach them to unlearn their racism and they would have to be open to that. Given that that is not possible, you will have to do something you do not want - limit contact - in order to keep your kid from picking that racism up. There may very well be financial or logistical reasons you can't do that - work on those. Good parenting means protecting kids from damaging relationships.
posted by Mistress at 3:48 AM on October 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Mistress at 3:48 AM on October 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was recently approached by a stranger in a public place who tried to strike up a conversation about Kavanaugh, and I said "I'm so angry about this I can't even talk about it. That is not a joke, I do not want to talk about this." and this person backed off. It was a little awkward, but it worked. Sometimes you have to just be super direct.
posted by nuclear_soup at 10:29 AM on October 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by nuclear_soup at 10:29 AM on October 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you everybody for your advice. You've helped put some things into perspective.
I'll admit that I need to work on my own somewhat radical views (like the urgency of climate change). Though I don't actually utter "class warfare" in mixed company because I know even liberals don't like that rhetoric.
The main issue is that most of the talk isn't overtly racist or misogynist, that would be easy to draw the line. It's more the griping about kids from historically black neighborhoods being lazy and not pulling themselves up by the boot straps. Or that protestors are just overreacting to whatever (police violence, sexual assault, etc).
posted by sock potato at 11:21 AM on October 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'll admit that I need to work on my own somewhat radical views (like the urgency of climate change). Though I don't actually utter "class warfare" in mixed company because I know even liberals don't like that rhetoric.
The main issue is that most of the talk isn't overtly racist or misogynist, that would be easy to draw the line. It's more the griping about kids from historically black neighborhoods being lazy and not pulling themselves up by the boot straps. Or that protestors are just overreacting to whatever (police violence, sexual assault, etc).
posted by sock potato at 11:21 AM on October 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It's more the griping about kids from historically black neighborhoods being lazy and not pulling themselves up by the boot straps.
That is overtly racist, and yes, you should call them on it.
posted by coffeeand at 11:46 AM on October 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
That is overtly racist, and yes, you should call them on it.
posted by coffeeand at 11:46 AM on October 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Yes, that's flat out racist and is not something
I would want children in my care to hear without also hearing me challenge it. Likewise, a child who hears me say nothing in a discussion about sexual assault is a child who just learned that I will not have their back if they are ever assaulted. I think that's part if where I would be thinking about in your shoes - which issues do I need to model a response to for my child, and which can be "agree to disagree" issues? We can't answer that for you but I'm inclined to think any issue that could touch on your child's identity, such as sexism or homiphobia or racism, is a hard no.
posted by Stacey at 12:15 PM on October 9, 2018
I would want children in my care to hear without also hearing me challenge it. Likewise, a child who hears me say nothing in a discussion about sexual assault is a child who just learned that I will not have their back if they are ever assaulted. I think that's part if where I would be thinking about in your shoes - which issues do I need to model a response to for my child, and which can be "agree to disagree" issues? We can't answer that for you but I'm inclined to think any issue that could touch on your child's identity, such as sexism or homiphobia or racism, is a hard no.
posted by Stacey at 12:15 PM on October 9, 2018
This thread is closed to new comments.
If someone starts pontificating, no matter which side they are on, I either leave the room or, if it's my place, I politely shut it down or try to redirect.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:01 PM on October 8, 2018 [13 favorites]