Parenting dispute re: playground bullies
September 17, 2018 12:29 PM Subscribe
What to do with kiddo gets pushed around at the playground?
We often take our daughter to our local playground. When there (and it seems more frequently as she gets older -- she's five) there are some playground bullies (not the same ones each time, just different kids we run into.) They often take her bucket and spade, and sometimes push her, or tell her to get off the swings, whatever.
I am a "take the high road" type -- i.e., tell them it's not appropriate, I (not my daughter) takes back the spade, etc., we walk away if they start to push. They go low, we go high, right?
My partner (who admittedly takes her more often) is the opposite, and even tells her it's OK to push back, and even encourages this, saying that she should not think it's OK for other people to walk all over her, and that she should learn to stick up for herself. Pushing back is OK. Bullies who get what they want stay bullies.
Help me resolve this dispute! Who is right? Is there a "right" here? Surely we should be consistent, right?
We often take our daughter to our local playground. When there (and it seems more frequently as she gets older -- she's five) there are some playground bullies (not the same ones each time, just different kids we run into.) They often take her bucket and spade, and sometimes push her, or tell her to get off the swings, whatever.
I am a "take the high road" type -- i.e., tell them it's not appropriate, I (not my daughter) takes back the spade, etc., we walk away if they start to push. They go low, we go high, right?
My partner (who admittedly takes her more often) is the opposite, and even tells her it's OK to push back, and even encourages this, saying that she should not think it's OK for other people to walk all over her, and that she should learn to stick up for herself. Pushing back is OK. Bullies who get what they want stay bullies.
Help me resolve this dispute! Who is right? Is there a "right" here? Surely we should be consistent, right?
I'd start off by recategorizing what is happening here. This isn't bullying. This is absolutely typical behavior from kids who are still sorting out how to interact with one another. Once we understand that kids are not being instrumentally cruel, it sets up as adults to be in a better position to give them the scaffolding and guidance they need to successfully navigate these skirmishes. Usually I step in and help the kids talk it out "Hey, I notice X looks unhappy. Can anyone help me understand what's happening? Oh, you were playing with the spade and they took it when you were still playing. That's feels really frustrating, huh. Hey Y, is that what happened? I wonder if there's a way we can solve this problem? Can you play with it together/take turns? Oh, it's special and you don't feel like sharing? Ok, but that means that other children might not choose to share with you. That's ok." etc.
I don't think meeting aggressive behavior with aggression is really ok ever unless there is imminent risk of serious injury/death. We're firmly in the camp that you're in charge of your own body. You can say no loudly and if another child doesn't listen you ask a grown up for help.
posted by goggie at 12:39 PM on September 17, 2018 [20 favorites]
I don't think meeting aggressive behavior with aggression is really ok ever unless there is imminent risk of serious injury/death. We're firmly in the camp that you're in charge of your own body. You can say no loudly and if another child doesn't listen you ask a grown up for help.
posted by goggie at 12:39 PM on September 17, 2018 [20 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm always nervous about asking these questions because it makes me think other people think we're terrible parents/crazy! The pushing thing just happened once. I think the real difference is not the aggression, but how to teach her not to get walked over. I myself am a huge pushover in regular life, so I worry about this. But we now do both agree that physical aggression is not OK.
posted by EtTuHealy at 12:58 PM on September 17, 2018
posted by EtTuHealy at 12:58 PM on September 17, 2018
I mean. I get what you guys are saying. But honestly, I feel that my dad‘s lessons of „if someone pushes you, you push back harder“ gave me the grit to stand up to a lot of male aggression as a petite woman.
Don‘t get me wrong, I feel it‘s also important to learn how to articulate your needs and how to tell people to „STOP“, with your words.
But I also feel like there‘s something to be said for pushing back. I wouldn‘t say that for three year olds, who are little troglodytes, but if the kid is five, they know exactly what they‘re doing when they take someone‘s toys or push them away.
I feel like, especially for little girls, we as a society are often too vigilant about preventing physical altercations while we ignore them in boys, to a detrimental effect.
Just a thought. As a mom, I feel for both you and your husband!
posted by Omnomnom at 1:02 PM on September 17, 2018 [19 favorites]
Don‘t get me wrong, I feel it‘s also important to learn how to articulate your needs and how to tell people to „STOP“, with your words.
But I also feel like there‘s something to be said for pushing back. I wouldn‘t say that for three year olds, who are little troglodytes, but if the kid is five, they know exactly what they‘re doing when they take someone‘s toys or push them away.
I feel like, especially for little girls, we as a society are often too vigilant about preventing physical altercations while we ignore them in boys, to a detrimental effect.
Just a thought. As a mom, I feel for both you and your husband!
posted by Omnomnom at 1:02 PM on September 17, 2018 [19 favorites]
Response by poster: Sorry to threadsit, and I agree some of it is normal for kids, but some of these kids are really true bullies -- not toddlers, but kids who roam in packs of 2-3 just looking for trouble. We are good at handling the typical "not sharing" or "my turn" kind of problems. My partner was bullied a lot as a kid, and he said things were always better when he stood up to it (and that getting a parent involved would have been awful) but now feels bad about telling our daughter this!
posted by EtTuHealy at 1:07 PM on September 17, 2018
posted by EtTuHealy at 1:07 PM on September 17, 2018
I dunno. I remember that, while I did get in trouble for it*, when I was in Kindergarten the absolute only thing that made the boys stop using me as a punching bag was the time I got fed up and hit one of them back. I'm not saying it's a great philosophy to live your whole life by, but there may be times when, maybe as a last resort, it can be better than the alternative.
*None of my male schoolmates faced any consequences for violence. The principal literally told my mother and me, "Well, boys will be boys, but little ladies don't do that kind of thing."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:09 PM on September 17, 2018 [16 favorites]
*None of my male schoolmates faced any consequences for violence. The principal literally told my mother and me, "Well, boys will be boys, but little ladies don't do that kind of thing."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:09 PM on September 17, 2018 [16 favorites]
I think with true bullies,
middle school age and higher actually do better fighting back without adult intervention when possible because otherwise there can be more retaliation and it can go underground and get worse. But five? I think it's ok for a five year old to get an adult. I think it's good to teach assertiveness but if the other party is being aggressive, it's useful for your child to at least know HOW to be aggressive back, and unfraid to be, while learning how to determine whether it is necessary to take that direction. No easy answers.
posted by crunchy potato at 1:49 PM on September 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
middle school age and higher actually do better fighting back without adult intervention when possible because otherwise there can be more retaliation and it can go underground and get worse. But five? I think it's ok for a five year old to get an adult. I think it's good to teach assertiveness but if the other party is being aggressive, it's useful for your child to at least know HOW to be aggressive back, and unfraid to be, while learning how to determine whether it is necessary to take that direction. No easy answers.
posted by crunchy potato at 1:49 PM on September 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
You could teach her to verbally berate them. Anything from just yelling ‘no stop being a jerk’ to a full out cussing rampage that will turn their ears red.
Just spitballing, but that’s something between meeting violence with violence and being a pushover or running for help. The key here is that you ARE there, and can step in to save her if she needs it, while also holding back to see how it goes.
Don’t be training wheels, be a safety net.
posted by SaltySalticid at 1:49 PM on September 17, 2018
Just spitballing, but that’s something between meeting violence with violence and being a pushover or running for help. The key here is that you ARE there, and can step in to save her if she needs it, while also holding back to see how it goes.
Don’t be training wheels, be a safety net.
posted by SaltySalticid at 1:49 PM on September 17, 2018
I often step in when kids (even up to teens) are being rude. No threatening them or cussing (there is nothing more worthless in 2018 than swearing at a kid), but they often have no models of good behavior and there is no real reason to leave a kid on an island when there is an adult who can help. They will get enough of that throughout their life.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:51 PM on September 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:51 PM on September 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think it's extremely important to teach kids to stand up for themselves. Being taught to be too passive is a recipe for being taken advantage of, especially in relationships, especially for women. Girls are often taught to be passive and agreeable and to always put others' needs before their own - this is bullshit and can lead to attitudes of letting others treat them badly and excusing it. Obviously there is a balance, and words/communication should come first, but self-defense should always be an option.
That said, children will not feel comfortable using words if they do not feel they can back up the words with physical confidence/the ability to physically defend themselves. Many of my answers on MeFi have related to Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu (I feel like a broken record), because I wish I had it as a kid, and I think most people can benefit from it immensely. It is the best thing, in my opinion, that you can give your kid for their ability to defend themselves and neutralize many situations.
If you are unaware, BJJ is a grappling martial art that involves acheiving a superior position (body-mechanics/leverage-wise) and using various submission techniques to subdue your opponent. It is very effective (used regularly in high-level MMA competition and every-day confrontations, and by police officers), fun to practice, and can be practiced with very little risk of injury under very realistic conditions (no punching/kicking, but still full effort/resistance from training partners).
BJJ is intimidating to start (like most martial arts). However, from seeing kids classes in the schools I have gone to, young girls can do exceptionally well and are often among the most skilled in their age group. Adult classes tend to be mostly men and I think the natural strength difference discourages many from starting, but one of the aims of BJJ is to overcome strength differences using technique, and it is very possible to do so.
Anyway, all this is to say that I think you should teach your daughter to be courteous and kind, but prepare her to be assertive when needed, which in my opinion must involve having training in an effective martial art (not a BS one that will give false confidence, like many karate/TaeKwonDo McDojos around).
I know of one specific BJJ anti-bullying program, "Gracie Bullyproof," which seems to incorporate the verbal/other aspects as well. It might be a good introduction, though your daughter is just barely at the lower age range to do it . You can check out the site here. Besides that, I would search for gyms with kids classes in your area, usually you can sit and watch a class or two to decide if it looks like a good atmosphere for your kid. I would of course encourage you and your partner join the adult classes, as you will gain an understanding of what is happening and what your child is learning, encourage them, and support them better, as well as having the benefits to yourself that it will carry.
To sum up and "help you resolve this dispute," I think you are both subtly wrong. Your partner's advice of "pushing back" is simplistic in my opinion. The initial "push" should be verbal and backed with confidence, and physical action your daughter takes must be swift, grounded in good technique, and applied when necessary, an understanding of that necessity being built on an understanding of real physical conflict and its consequences, with emotion being somewhat removed from the picture due to training experience (did I mention that benefit? calm under pressure and less likelihood of starting fights?) Your stance of always taking the "high ground" can lead to negative effects as well, mainly your daughter being taken advantage of, feeling, and being unsafe.
posted by hypercomplexsimplicity at 2:18 PM on September 17, 2018 [10 favorites]
That said, children will not feel comfortable using words if they do not feel they can back up the words with physical confidence/the ability to physically defend themselves. Many of my answers on MeFi have related to Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu (I feel like a broken record), because I wish I had it as a kid, and I think most people can benefit from it immensely. It is the best thing, in my opinion, that you can give your kid for their ability to defend themselves and neutralize many situations.
If you are unaware, BJJ is a grappling martial art that involves acheiving a superior position (body-mechanics/leverage-wise) and using various submission techniques to subdue your opponent. It is very effective (used regularly in high-level MMA competition and every-day confrontations, and by police officers), fun to practice, and can be practiced with very little risk of injury under very realistic conditions (no punching/kicking, but still full effort/resistance from training partners).
BJJ is intimidating to start (like most martial arts). However, from seeing kids classes in the schools I have gone to, young girls can do exceptionally well and are often among the most skilled in their age group. Adult classes tend to be mostly men and I think the natural strength difference discourages many from starting, but one of the aims of BJJ is to overcome strength differences using technique, and it is very possible to do so.
Anyway, all this is to say that I think you should teach your daughter to be courteous and kind, but prepare her to be assertive when needed, which in my opinion must involve having training in an effective martial art (not a BS one that will give false confidence, like many karate/TaeKwonDo McDojos around).
I know of one specific BJJ anti-bullying program, "Gracie Bullyproof," which seems to incorporate the verbal/other aspects as well. It might be a good introduction, though your daughter is just barely at the lower age range to do it . You can check out the site here. Besides that, I would search for gyms with kids classes in your area, usually you can sit and watch a class or two to decide if it looks like a good atmosphere for your kid. I would of course encourage you and your partner join the adult classes, as you will gain an understanding of what is happening and what your child is learning, encourage them, and support them better, as well as having the benefits to yourself that it will carry.
To sum up and "help you resolve this dispute," I think you are both subtly wrong. Your partner's advice of "pushing back" is simplistic in my opinion. The initial "push" should be verbal and backed with confidence, and physical action your daughter takes must be swift, grounded in good technique, and applied when necessary, an understanding of that necessity being built on an understanding of real physical conflict and its consequences, with emotion being somewhat removed from the picture due to training experience (did I mention that benefit? calm under pressure and less likelihood of starting fights?) Your stance of always taking the "high ground" can lead to negative effects as well, mainly your daughter being taken advantage of, feeling, and being unsafe.
posted by hypercomplexsimplicity at 2:18 PM on September 17, 2018 [10 favorites]
I think it’s really, really important to teach girls especially to enforce their own boundaries, and frankly the “physical violence is never appropriate” advice always seems to come from people who have never been subject to physical violence. Maybe some day your kid will have the maturity and inner peace to turn the other cheek, but in the meantime it’s really fucking weird to expect bullied kids to be literally Christ-like. And sometimes it’s really not safe. There are definitely situations where you want her to push back, you know?
I like the BJJ suggestion above.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:26 PM on September 17, 2018 [15 favorites]
I like the BJJ suggestion above.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:26 PM on September 17, 2018 [15 favorites]
The cardinal rule in our family is that you never hit anyone, for any reason. There are good reasons for that rule and it's the difference I'm proudest of giving to my children, from the way I was raised. Violence is unthinkable to my kids and long may it stay that way.
I would revisit your hesitation to step in, where necessary. Your kid is very young, you're the parent so help them. This doesn't mean hovering about like a hummingbird, but if the need help, give it to them. Don't forget your authority as an adult holds a lot of power with children, just talk in a calm firm manner.
I have also coached my daughter on what to say and do when someone is not respecting her verbally or physically, and she follows that script with vigour. But more important is what it teaches her: that no one has the right to touch her, to make her feel a certain way.
This is more important than anything else, and it means when other kids are being little dipshits, she can walk away knowing she didn't lose a battle or some crap (I think your spouse's framing of this in a VS context is unhelpful in this, and in broader life. Contextualising as conflict tends to be a self fulfilling prophecy.).
Her self worth is intact if not bolstered when she gets praised for doing the right thing. And she needs less coaching as she's getting older. Her year one teacher was impressed this year said that when other kids try to boss her around she just ignored them and does her own thing. That's the adult response. I'm proud of her.
posted by smoke at 2:38 PM on September 17, 2018
I would revisit your hesitation to step in, where necessary. Your kid is very young, you're the parent so help them. This doesn't mean hovering about like a hummingbird, but if the need help, give it to them. Don't forget your authority as an adult holds a lot of power with children, just talk in a calm firm manner.
I have also coached my daughter on what to say and do when someone is not respecting her verbally or physically, and she follows that script with vigour. But more important is what it teaches her: that no one has the right to touch her, to make her feel a certain way.
This is more important than anything else, and it means when other kids are being little dipshits, she can walk away knowing she didn't lose a battle or some crap (I think your spouse's framing of this in a VS context is unhelpful in this, and in broader life. Contextualising as conflict tends to be a self fulfilling prophecy.).
Her self worth is intact if not bolstered when she gets praised for doing the right thing. And she needs less coaching as she's getting older. Her year one teacher was impressed this year said that when other kids try to boss her around she just ignored them and does her own thing. That's the adult response. I'm proud of her.
posted by smoke at 2:38 PM on September 17, 2018
Regarding physical force, if you want to tell
her it’s something she can/should do, consider this:
Say she uses force against force, and shoves a kid back. And he punches her. And she kicks him in the balls. And then his two friends jump in on her. Now it’s three older kids on one smaller one, and she could in principle get badly beaten. Are you prepared to fight 2-3 ‘older children’ in the park to defend her? To punch them, kick them, or whatever it takes to scare them off? And then deal with all the (legal, social, psychological) fallout of that? Because the thing about responding to force with force is that it often leads to escalation. Sure, maybe they all run away like in the movies. But movies and real life are usually pretty different. And I don’t think I’d personally want to deal with any of that.
I plan to teach my kid about de-escalation, using many of the resources that have appeared here on the green and blue- it’s a perennial topic, just use the search box and you’ll find a wealth of materials.
posted by SaltySalticid at 2:54 PM on September 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
her it’s something she can/should do, consider this:
Say she uses force against force, and shoves a kid back. And he punches her. And she kicks him in the balls. And then his two friends jump in on her. Now it’s three older kids on one smaller one, and she could in principle get badly beaten. Are you prepared to fight 2-3 ‘older children’ in the park to defend her? To punch them, kick them, or whatever it takes to scare them off? And then deal with all the (legal, social, psychological) fallout of that? Because the thing about responding to force with force is that it often leads to escalation. Sure, maybe they all run away like in the movies. But movies and real life are usually pretty different. And I don’t think I’d personally want to deal with any of that.
I plan to teach my kid about de-escalation, using many of the resources that have appeared here on the green and blue- it’s a perennial topic, just use the search box and you’ll find a wealth of materials.
posted by SaltySalticid at 2:54 PM on September 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
There's a certain amount of rude but not scary little-kid shoving, where I think worrying about escalating violence into a serious beating is overblown. Is there a conceptual place where you and your partner could meet, where you can imagine physical resistance to bullying as possible short of violence? That is, someone tries to push her off a swing, holding on and saying "No, I'm staying" isn't a violent response -- if someone tries to grab her bucket, holding onto it or grabbing it back is also not really violent escalation.
It all depends on the specifics of what the bullies are like, but there's room for some 'pushing back', including some physicality, that doesn't amount to encouraging her to start a fistfight. And I think there's some value for a kid to know that resisting some amount of physical aggression is possible.
posted by LizardBreath at 3:07 PM on September 17, 2018
It all depends on the specifics of what the bullies are like, but there's room for some 'pushing back', including some physicality, that doesn't amount to encouraging her to start a fistfight. And I think there's some value for a kid to know that resisting some amount of physical aggression is possible.
posted by LizardBreath at 3:07 PM on September 17, 2018
So I have a kid about your kid's age who is often the one who is taking the shovel or bucket or whatever from another kid. She just really wants it and she lacks impulse control. We talk about this a lot, both at home and at the playground, and I've explained it's not good/acceptable behavior.
But it drives me bonkers when another parent gets involved at the playground and tries to "help" her own kid whose toy got taken. Honestly, I'm like, "No wonder my kid took your kid's toy. Your kid is 5/6/7 and can't even tell a tiny 4 year old to give it back on their own?" The whole parents narrating play thing has gone way too far. If you're intervening in every one of these conflicts, your daughter won't learn how to.
If I were you, I'd bring a magazine to the playground and have confidence in my kid. If she needs help, she'll come to you.
posted by luckdragon at 5:30 PM on September 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
But it drives me bonkers when another parent gets involved at the playground and tries to "help" her own kid whose toy got taken. Honestly, I'm like, "No wonder my kid took your kid's toy. Your kid is 5/6/7 and can't even tell a tiny 4 year old to give it back on their own?" The whole parents narrating play thing has gone way too far. If you're intervening in every one of these conflicts, your daughter won't learn how to.
If I were you, I'd bring a magazine to the playground and have confidence in my kid. If she needs help, she'll come to you.
posted by luckdragon at 5:30 PM on September 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Pushing her and telling her to get off the swings warrant two different responses. If they push her, she pushes back. If they tell her to get off the swing, she tells them no. I totally understand wanting to take the high road but ya know, a kid doesn’t have to be the playground punching bag for a halo.
posted by pintapicasso at 5:30 PM on September 17, 2018
posted by pintapicasso at 5:30 PM on September 17, 2018
we walk away if they start to push
I don't understand this. You don't rebuke the other kid and make sure they stop?
I sometimes wished my daughters were fighter types as small children, but by nature they were sweet and docile, and if I'd told them to fight their own battles they'd have been chased off the playground. When there were bullies around I stayed close and interfered if there was trouble.
You know your kid better than I do. If she's capable of solving this stuff by herself then great. We have all heard stories about how bullies only back off once they get a beatdown. But it sounds like your girl is docile like mine were, and realistically not going to be the one delivering an effective beatdown. Nor should she have to be undefended if her parents are nearby.
posted by fingersandtoes at 5:38 PM on September 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't understand this. You don't rebuke the other kid and make sure they stop?
I sometimes wished my daughters were fighter types as small children, but by nature they were sweet and docile, and if I'd told them to fight their own battles they'd have been chased off the playground. When there were bullies around I stayed close and interfered if there was trouble.
You know your kid better than I do. If she's capable of solving this stuff by herself then great. We have all heard stories about how bullies only back off once they get a beatdown. But it sounds like your girl is docile like mine were, and realistically not going to be the one delivering an effective beatdown. Nor should she have to be undefended if her parents are nearby.
posted by fingersandtoes at 5:38 PM on September 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
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My approach would be to coach your daughter on what to say when someone is mean to her (That's my shovel, give it back. I was using that. You can have your turn next, but this is my turn.) and let her handle the situation, then let her come to you when she is in over her head, instead of sweeping in and resolving things for her. But your partner is dead wrong and I'm a little startled at the idea of trying to instill such an aggressive attitude in your kid on purpose.
posted by gideonfrog at 12:34 PM on September 17, 2018 [4 favorites]