Chinese/American courtship etiquette
February 14, 2006 12:23 PM Subscribe
She's Chinese, he's American - what cultural courtship differences are there?The guy is American. The girl is Chinese. They're both educated, from relatively similar economic backgrounds, similar ages...but of course, they're very different. What should they know about courtship and romance are conducted in their respective cultures? What are the rules and etiquettes, from first date to last, from making out to marriage, from expectations to promises? What are the pitfalls - and what are the positives?
Even if she's liberated and worldly, her parents are probably much more traditional.
posted by nathan_teske at 12:27 PM on February 14, 2006
posted by nathan_teske at 12:27 PM on February 14, 2006
And it would be helpful to know where in China we're talking about.
posted by nathan_teske at 12:29 PM on February 14, 2006
posted by nathan_teske at 12:29 PM on February 14, 2006
I heard all Chinese people fall into a neat little sterotype. (Ditto for Americans.) Also, Chinese people can't be American.
posted by chunking express at 12:36 PM on February 14, 2006
posted by chunking express at 12:36 PM on February 14, 2006
Response by poster: She lives in Beijing, is from Chengdu.
posted by soulbarn at 12:38 PM on February 14, 2006
posted by soulbarn at 12:38 PM on February 14, 2006
The question does need some work. And maybe the assumptions behind it could use some examination, as well.
Seriously, you're talking about human beings. Each of them is going to think and behave in a manner that falls somewhere on the spectrum of humanity's thinking and behavior. Pay attention, ask a lot of questions, and listen.
I'm an American WASP, and my wife is Han Chinese. We have a lot in common. The things we don't have in common have less to do with cultural differences than with personality.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:43 PM on February 14, 2006
Seriously, you're talking about human beings. Each of them is going to think and behave in a manner that falls somewhere on the spectrum of humanity's thinking and behavior. Pay attention, ask a lot of questions, and listen.
I'm an American WASP, and my wife is Han Chinese. We have a lot in common. The things we don't have in common have less to do with cultural differences than with personality.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:43 PM on February 14, 2006
I heard all Chinese people fall into a neat little sterotype. (Ditto for Americans.) Also, Chinese people can't be American.
Is this bitchiness really necessary? He asked a politely worded question about comparing/contrasting the dating customs in two different cultures. That's a pretty reasonable request.
posted by Gamblor at 12:48 PM on February 14, 2006
Is this bitchiness really necessary? He asked a politely worded question about comparing/contrasting the dating customs in two different cultures. That's a pretty reasonable request.
posted by Gamblor at 12:48 PM on February 14, 2006
a pretty reasonable request.
The question seems too broad to me, no bitchiness intended.
posted by the cuban at 12:59 PM on February 14, 2006
The question seems too broad to me, no bitchiness intended.
posted by the cuban at 12:59 PM on February 14, 2006
Regardless of how well intentioned soulbarn is -- and soulbarn does sounds polite and nice -- this is a silly question that invites responses like, "The Chinese mom is not going to like it." My bitchy reply was more in response to the first two "answers" than the question itself.
posted by chunking express at 1:03 PM on February 14, 2006
posted by chunking express at 1:03 PM on February 14, 2006
Response by poster: Jeez! The question may be too broad. But it's my question, and that's what I want to know. The point of the question is to AVOID stereotyping, not to succumb to it.
I've got no problem with bitchy comments or people wondering about the assumptions behind the question. But some constructive answers would be nice, too, if at all possible.
posted by soulbarn at 1:03 PM on February 14, 2006
I've got no problem with bitchy comments or people wondering about the assumptions behind the question. But some constructive answers would be nice, too, if at all possible.
posted by soulbarn at 1:03 PM on February 14, 2006
Response by poster: And, Chungking Express, my point in calling myself American and her Chinese was simply that she is Chinese. And I'm American. You can look at our passports.
posted by soulbarn at 1:04 PM on February 14, 2006
posted by soulbarn at 1:04 PM on February 14, 2006
So the question is a little broad, but he asked specifically about dating "rules and etiquettes". That's not silly, and that's most definitely not grounds for implying he's a racist.
Example: In India, dating couple don't show affection in public. In Thailand, the groom's family pays a reverse-dowry to the bride's family. In Japan, couples give lots of small gifts to each other. How about some info about how they do it in China?
posted by Gamblor at 1:12 PM on February 14, 2006
Example: In India, dating couple don't show affection in public. In Thailand, the groom's family pays a reverse-dowry to the bride's family. In Japan, couples give lots of small gifts to each other. How about some info about how they do it in China?
posted by Gamblor at 1:12 PM on February 14, 2006
As your profile says "Dan", I'll assume you are asking from the "American" guy's point of view. I'll also assume that by "American" you mean "non-Asian" (although this doesn't matter much).
The biggest thing to understand is where her parents are from and how long they've been in America. If they are first-generation Americans (or still living in China), you'll definitely have your work cut out for you.
Nothing will be good enough for their little girl (as is the case in many cultures), but you will do well to listen when they talk, try not to say too much and definitely don't try to start an argument with either of them. Nodding approvingly will win you big brownie points.
Money too is a huge factor. Chinese parents will always respect money. Showing that you are money, a professional (doctor, lawyer, etc.) will win you big bonus points. A small gift - some exotic fruits, chocolate, random chinese dried food (scallops, mushrooms) - when coming by to meet your woman at her parents' house will win big points with them too.
Attitudes toward sex, relationships and whatnot will generally be more conservative and traditional. She may either adhere strictly or be the complete opposite (depends if she abides by her parents rule or wants to break free)
Hope that was what you were looking for. Beyond the generalization, it's hard to say more. You've given very broad generalizations to work with, I've given you very broad generalizations in response.
posted by PWA_BadBoy at 1:19 PM on February 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
The biggest thing to understand is where her parents are from and how long they've been in America. If they are first-generation Americans (or still living in China), you'll definitely have your work cut out for you.
Nothing will be good enough for their little girl (as is the case in many cultures), but you will do well to listen when they talk, try not to say too much and definitely don't try to start an argument with either of them. Nodding approvingly will win you big brownie points.
Money too is a huge factor. Chinese parents will always respect money. Showing that you are money, a professional (doctor, lawyer, etc.) will win you big bonus points. A small gift - some exotic fruits, chocolate, random chinese dried food (scallops, mushrooms) - when coming by to meet your woman at her parents' house will win big points with them too.
Attitudes toward sex, relationships and whatnot will generally be more conservative and traditional. She may either adhere strictly or be the complete opposite (depends if she abides by her parents rule or wants to break free)
Hope that was what you were looking for. Beyond the generalization, it's hard to say more. You've given very broad generalizations to work with, I've given you very broad generalizations in response.
posted by PWA_BadBoy at 1:19 PM on February 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
It's a reasonable question. I've been in a cross-cultural relationship, and certain things did have an impact. No, people don't fit into neat little categories, but we are a product of our socialization, to a lesser or greater degree. To be aware of a person's culture and heritage, I think, can be a valuable thing, and doesn't require a bunch of assumptions to be made about the person himself/herself.
I don't have a direct answer to your question, but I do suggest that you discuss these things with each other in addition to whatever else you might glean here. It could make for an interesting learning experience. Besides, each person is his or her own best source of info.
posted by moira at 1:20 PM on February 14, 2006
I don't have a direct answer to your question, but I do suggest that you discuss these things with each other in addition to whatever else you might glean here. It could make for an interesting learning experience. Besides, each person is his or her own best source of info.
posted by moira at 1:20 PM on February 14, 2006
Chinese society is patriarchal. In a family with sons and daughters, the pecking order is as follows: Males in order of age descending, followed by females in order of age descending. So a 5-year-old son outranks his 35-year-old mother (and the father will let both the mother and son know this). Young women are at the bottom of the pecking order, and they will be made aware of it constantly. In recent years (one child policy) this has gotten even worse, and the phenomenon of spoiled rotten sons has a name: Little Emperors.
Her parents are unlikely to approve of her marrying an American. The "most-desired" marriage would be for her to marry a man 5-15 years older than her, Chinese, rich.
The economic opportunity of her becoming a U.S. citizen may make up for you not being rich, I don't know.
This is, of course, a stereotype. No other answer to your question is possible EXCEPT by describing stereotypes, since we don't know your girlfriend's parents.
posted by jellicle at 1:58 PM on February 14, 2006
Her parents are unlikely to approve of her marrying an American. The "most-desired" marriage would be for her to marry a man 5-15 years older than her, Chinese, rich.
The economic opportunity of her becoming a U.S. citizen may make up for you not being rich, I don't know.
This is, of course, a stereotype. No other answer to your question is possible EXCEPT by describing stereotypes, since we don't know your girlfriend's parents.
posted by jellicle at 1:58 PM on February 14, 2006
Example: In India, dating couple don't show affection in public. In Thailand, the groom's family pays a reverse-dowry to the bride's family. In Japan, couples give lots of small gifts to each other. How about some info about how they do it in China?
There are more than a billion people in China, and even more in the Chinese diaspora. China itself is host to hundreds of different cultures, each with its own rituals and customs. Saying "Chinese" is no more helpful than saying "European," or even "Western."
posted by maxreax at 2:03 PM on February 14, 2006
There are more than a billion people in China, and even more in the Chinese diaspora. China itself is host to hundreds of different cultures, each with its own rituals and customs. Saying "Chinese" is no more helpful than saying "European," or even "Western."
posted by maxreax at 2:03 PM on February 14, 2006
One book I found interesting (although aimed more at teachers) was Jean Brick, China: a handbook in intercultural communication. You might want to watch some recent movies from China as well.
I'm afraid I don't know much about courtship and dating in China. (I was born in Canada; my parents are from Singapore and Malaysia, not China.) But here's some assumptions you might trip over, from observing my parents:
Relationship with one's parents / prospective parents-in-law. Obedience is much more important in Chinese families than in Western families. Chinese society is much more hierarchical and less egalitarian. Don't argue or talk back.
Conforming to social rules is extremely important, much more so than in the West.
Traditionally, public displays of affection are inappropriate. (This may have changed.)
Emotional and physical intimacy are not to be taken lightly or casually. Chinese people look down on Westerners for letting their hormones run their lives, changing partners the way they would change clothes. Don't confirm the stereotype. (Not to be nosy, but your earlier question suggests that you're already married to someone else. Even if you get divorced, that's a big strike against you.)
jellicle: In a family with sons and daughters, the pecking order is as follows: Males in order of age descending, followed by females in order of age descending. So a 5-year-old son outranks his 35-year-old mother (and the father will let both the mother and son know this).
This isn't consistent with my experience. From what I've seen, the mother runs the household. Don't antagonize your girlfriend's mother.
posted by russilwvong at 2:12 PM on February 14, 2006
I'm afraid I don't know much about courtship and dating in China. (I was born in Canada; my parents are from Singapore and Malaysia, not China.) But here's some assumptions you might trip over, from observing my parents:
Relationship with one's parents / prospective parents-in-law. Obedience is much more important in Chinese families than in Western families. Chinese society is much more hierarchical and less egalitarian. Don't argue or talk back.
Conforming to social rules is extremely important, much more so than in the West.
Traditionally, public displays of affection are inappropriate. (This may have changed.)
Emotional and physical intimacy are not to be taken lightly or casually. Chinese people look down on Westerners for letting their hormones run their lives, changing partners the way they would change clothes. Don't confirm the stereotype. (Not to be nosy, but your earlier question suggests that you're already married to someone else. Even if you get divorced, that's a big strike against you.)
jellicle: In a family with sons and daughters, the pecking order is as follows: Males in order of age descending, followed by females in order of age descending. So a 5-year-old son outranks his 35-year-old mother (and the father will let both the mother and son know this).
This isn't consistent with my experience. From what I've seen, the mother runs the household. Don't antagonize your girlfriend's mother.
posted by russilwvong at 2:12 PM on February 14, 2006
Could be worse; at least you're not Japanese.
Seriously though, is she from the city or from countryside Sichuan?
What's she doing in Beijing? Are you in Beijing with her?
Are you her ticket out of China?
How do you guys communicate? English? Chinese? Hands and feet?
posted by sour cream at 2:14 PM on February 14, 2006
Seriously though, is she from the city or from countryside Sichuan?
What's she doing in Beijing? Are you in Beijing with her?
Are you her ticket out of China?
How do you guys communicate? English? Chinese? Hands and feet?
posted by sour cream at 2:14 PM on February 14, 2006
Parents. My friend was engaged to a Chinese woman once. Both sets of parents sabotaged the whole thing.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:22 PM on February 14, 2006
posted by Ironmouth at 2:22 PM on February 14, 2006
Saying "Chinese" is no more helpful than saying "European," or even "Western."
Or "American"
(at least, without some ethnic-identifying hyphenated prefix).
posted by Rash at 2:25 PM on February 14, 2006
Or "American"
(at least, without some ethnic-identifying hyphenated prefix).
posted by Rash at 2:25 PM on February 14, 2006
Saying "Chinese" is no more helpful than saying "European," or even "Western."
Parenthetically: I don't see why saying "Chinese" or "Western" isn't helpful. The traditions are different enough that there's some obvious distinctions, e.g. the more hierarchical and conformist nature of Chinese society (versus the importance of egalitarianism and individual freedom in the West), the more casual Western approach to dating).
posted by russilwvong at 2:32 PM on February 14, 2006
Parenthetically: I don't see why saying "Chinese" or "Western" isn't helpful. The traditions are different enough that there's some obvious distinctions, e.g. the more hierarchical and conformist nature of Chinese society (versus the importance of egalitarianism and individual freedom in the West), the more casual Western approach to dating).
posted by russilwvong at 2:32 PM on February 14, 2006
I'll add some complete hearsay with this (told to me by Chinese in Shanghai). When dating Chinese girls, be careful saying "I love you", as this is less a token of extreme affection and more an indication of marriage. Take that as you will.
I think there is also a big difference in women who were educated in the west vs. women who have only live in China. Those that have gone to college in the US would be pretty hip to the traditions of US dating.
I second the "make the parents happy and treat them with respect" said previously. If you are not wealthy, then stereotypically the parents may not like that their daughter is dating a gui lo (white devil). They may not like it anyway, but tradition holds that the children will provide for their retirement, so you need to be able to offer that.
posted by qwip at 3:26 PM on February 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
I think there is also a big difference in women who were educated in the west vs. women who have only live in China. Those that have gone to college in the US would be pretty hip to the traditions of US dating.
I second the "make the parents happy and treat them with respect" said previously. If you are not wealthy, then stereotypically the parents may not like that their daughter is dating a gui lo (white devil). They may not like it anyway, but tradition holds that the children will provide for their retirement, so you need to be able to offer that.
posted by qwip at 3:26 PM on February 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
I'm Chinese-Canadian, he's white American. Her family will be much more formal and conservative about the whole dating thing. Casual relationships are basically ignored and only serious relationships will be acknowledged by the family. Meeting the parents is a really big deal, and will likely happen waaaay after she's met your family. Meeting the extended family is an even bigger deal, and will be up to her parents to decide when that's happening.
If you're all out to dinner, her family will likely not notice they're all speaking Chinese and you have no idea what's going on. It's not a slight, they really just don't notice. When at dinner, always pour them tea, following the heirarchy jellicle described (if her family is that traditional).
Be prepared to field a lot of questions about your parents including what they do, how you were brought up, and your job. The better your job or more educated you are, the more they'll like you.
Always be polite. Do not address her parents or anyone a generation above by their first names like in the US, unless they explicitly invite you too (this is not likely to occur). Vice versa, your gf will probably be uncomfortable calling your parents by their first names.
Sex-wise, her and her family are also likely more conservative. Expect to always stay in separate rooms, or at least say you are, even when she is visiting you. You will not likely be invited on vacations etc. until you are formally engaged or married.
When visiting, always bring a gift for her family. Your girlfriend will probably do this too.
Try to learn a couple of phrases of Chinese, this will greatly impress the family. If you have difficulty with the tones, try to think of it more like singing than speaking.
As for your being a gui lo...this will really depend on her family. For example, my parents always said they wanted me to marry a Chinese guy, but they totally love my white bf. Best of luck!
posted by orangskye at 4:28 PM on February 14, 2006
If you're all out to dinner, her family will likely not notice they're all speaking Chinese and you have no idea what's going on. It's not a slight, they really just don't notice. When at dinner, always pour them tea, following the heirarchy jellicle described (if her family is that traditional).
Be prepared to field a lot of questions about your parents including what they do, how you were brought up, and your job. The better your job or more educated you are, the more they'll like you.
Always be polite. Do not address her parents or anyone a generation above by their first names like in the US, unless they explicitly invite you too (this is not likely to occur). Vice versa, your gf will probably be uncomfortable calling your parents by their first names.
Sex-wise, her and her family are also likely more conservative. Expect to always stay in separate rooms, or at least say you are, even when she is visiting you. You will not likely be invited on vacations etc. until you are formally engaged or married.
When visiting, always bring a gift for her family. Your girlfriend will probably do this too.
Try to learn a couple of phrases of Chinese, this will greatly impress the family. If you have difficulty with the tones, try to think of it more like singing than speaking.
As for your being a gui lo...this will really depend on her family. For example, my parents always said they wanted me to marry a Chinese guy, but they totally love my white bf. Best of luck!
posted by orangskye at 4:28 PM on February 14, 2006
I forgot to mention a positive! Your babies will be incredibly cute, no joke.
posted by orangskye at 4:44 PM on February 14, 2006
posted by orangskye at 4:44 PM on February 14, 2006
Chinese society is patriarchal. In a family with sons and daughters, the pecking order is as follows: Males in order of age descending, followed by females in order of age descending. So a 5-year-old son outranks his 35-year-old mother (and the father will let both the mother and son know this).
IMHO this is nonsense. In my family, and just about every Chinese family I know, it is the mother that pretty much call the shots.
posted by gyc at 5:39 PM on February 14, 2006
IMHO this is nonsense. In my family, and just about every Chinese family I know, it is the mother that pretty much call the shots.
posted by gyc at 5:39 PM on February 14, 2006
IMHO this is nonsense. In my family, and just about every Chinese family I know, it is the mother that pretty much call the shots.
... inside the home and in house/family related issues. Again, broad generalization of course, but that's my experience being an exchange student in Malaysian Chinese homes.
posted by arcticwoman at 6:14 PM on February 14, 2006
... inside the home and in house/family related issues. Again, broad generalization of course, but that's my experience being an exchange student in Malaysian Chinese homes.
posted by arcticwoman at 6:14 PM on February 14, 2006
I am a Chinese American woman (born in Illinois to a single mom, Chinese immigrant from China via Taiwan) and in 2004 I married a Caucasian American man from Berkeley, CA.
The biggest thing that I think he's had to acclimate to in our family is the familial structure and his role within it. My family is a very matriarchal one; my grandmother calls the shots. My mother is the oldest sibling of three (the other two are male twins, 3 years younger than she). He had to get used to really basic things, from how we address each other (i.e., I call my uncles a specific title/name which denotes their relationship to me within the family), to when he should pick up the chopsticks at a meal.
My family had other things to get used to - the first and foremost something that is not necessarily limited to Chinese families, but since my mom was a single mom, she was wary of anyone who won my heart. She has high, unspoken expectations of how he should behave.
When we got engaged, he asked me first, and then I said yes, and after that I called my mom and told her (she was in CT at the time and I was in FL with him and his parents). There are certain expectations that surrounded how my mom and grandmother thought a Chinese woman should get married, which through painful conversations we eventually teased out.
A lot of the courtship type of thing wasn't necessarily an issue for us - I grew up in the US so I would say we had a "traditional" US-styled courtship.
The one thing I would recommend for any non-Chinese person trying to win over a traditional Chinese mother/grandmother is that you be honest in your love and sincere in your promise to be a good spouse/partner. Can't just say it - you have to just do it. Repeatedly. And expect it to take years to fully mesh and become a part of the family. You earn your keep, at least 'round these parts. My aunt is a Caucasian woman who married my Chinese uncle - they've been together for 30 years and I would say it was probably only about 10 years or so ago where she was finally accepted fully into the family.
Be cognizant of language differences, compliment the food, eat until you're stuffed, and be patient. And good luck.
posted by cajo at 8:08 PM on February 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
The biggest thing that I think he's had to acclimate to in our family is the familial structure and his role within it. My family is a very matriarchal one; my grandmother calls the shots. My mother is the oldest sibling of three (the other two are male twins, 3 years younger than she). He had to get used to really basic things, from how we address each other (i.e., I call my uncles a specific title/name which denotes their relationship to me within the family), to when he should pick up the chopsticks at a meal.
My family had other things to get used to - the first and foremost something that is not necessarily limited to Chinese families, but since my mom was a single mom, she was wary of anyone who won my heart. She has high, unspoken expectations of how he should behave.
When we got engaged, he asked me first, and then I said yes, and after that I called my mom and told her (she was in CT at the time and I was in FL with him and his parents). There are certain expectations that surrounded how my mom and grandmother thought a Chinese woman should get married, which through painful conversations we eventually teased out.
A lot of the courtship type of thing wasn't necessarily an issue for us - I grew up in the US so I would say we had a "traditional" US-styled courtship.
The one thing I would recommend for any non-Chinese person trying to win over a traditional Chinese mother/grandmother is that you be honest in your love and sincere in your promise to be a good spouse/partner. Can't just say it - you have to just do it. Repeatedly. And expect it to take years to fully mesh and become a part of the family. You earn your keep, at least 'round these parts. My aunt is a Caucasian woman who married my Chinese uncle - they've been together for 30 years and I would say it was probably only about 10 years or so ago where she was finally accepted fully into the family.
Be cognizant of language differences, compliment the food, eat until you're stuffed, and be patient. And good luck.
posted by cajo at 8:08 PM on February 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
me = white guy, gf = chinese. Her parents were annoyed that I didn't spend enough time with them when I first first met them (it was a big group affair, and I was talking with a lot of other folks).
How's their english? If it's only mediocre, be prepared to quickly find the balance between realistically accomodating their language skills and not talking down to them.
posted by bargex at 8:16 PM on February 14, 2006
How's their english? If it's only mediocre, be prepared to quickly find the balance between realistically accomodating their language skills and not talking down to them.
posted by bargex at 8:16 PM on February 14, 2006
I'd just date and find out. It's the best way to learn. Personally I've found family to be a bit of a larger factor in the relationships I've had with Chinese, Greek, Italian, Filipino, and German girls. But that's most likely because family isn't as big a deal in my family. Any faux paux's were learned and understood, abided by or dismissed.
I haven't been married, but I've been to many of them. That seems to be when both families go apeshit. I'd elope.
posted by juiceCake at 8:21 PM on February 14, 2006
I haven't been married, but I've been to many of them. That seems to be when both families go apeshit. I'd elope.
posted by juiceCake at 8:21 PM on February 14, 2006
gweilo is a term applied to all foreigners, not just Americans or Europeans. I'm told it means "ghost," not "white devil".
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:57 AM on February 15, 2006
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:57 AM on February 15, 2006
When at dinner, always pour them tea, following the heirarchy jellicle described
Definitely pour them tea, but please don't follow jellicle's questionable hierarchy. Pouring tea for the 5 year old son before doing so for the mother would raise a few eyebrows.
posted by reformedjerk at 7:24 AM on February 15, 2006
Definitely pour them tea, but please don't follow jellicle's questionable hierarchy. Pouring tea for the 5 year old son before doing so for the mother would raise a few eyebrows.
posted by reformedjerk at 7:24 AM on February 15, 2006
Just another data point: My best friend dated a Chinese girl whose parents were from Beijing, but had moved here to do academic research (his medical, hers linguistic, if I recall correctly). While they were super traditional about some things (like, the gf got reamed out because they held hands when walking), they were super into the idea of their daughter dating an American and seemed to even like him more than their daughter. He got big props for being from Texas, and they were fascinated by cowboys (even though his cowboy cred was at best meager). So, based on that, I'd say that it's likely that the education level of the parents will play into how liberal they are as well, though the fact that he was studying Chinese and did tai chi with them probably helped quite a bit too.
posted by klangklangston at 9:35 AM on February 15, 2006
posted by klangklangston at 9:35 AM on February 15, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:27 PM on February 14, 2006