What dog breeds would be most suitable for our family?
July 26, 2018 11:01 AM Subscribe
We are considering getting a dog (well, the rest of the family thinks it's a forgone conclusion, but I'm a little leery) and I am trying to figure out what breeds might fit us best. I'm finding that to be really hard.
A little about us:
Middle aged couple with an eight-year old and baby. We own a reasonably-sized house with 3 levels and have a very large backyard. We live in a part of Canada where temps are below or at least near zero at least 6 months of the year, with snow. My husband grew up with dogs, although rurally, so they didn't live full time in the house. I didn't. My sister has 2 dogs and 4 kids, so I've seen one example of how dog + family works. I work office hours, my husband leaves the house at about 5:30am and comes home about 6pm. There is a neighbourhood dog walker whom I've met. We live in a neighbourhood where there are lots and lots of dogs and there are huge parks around. An off leash dog park is nearby, but I think mostly we would need to take the car there. We have a Subaru Forester. We have a below-average amount of night and weekend commitments, I think. We take a 2-week vacation most years. I really wish we could, but realistically we can't do a morning walk and we can't do a lunchtime walk. I would have to rely on a walker for this.
Right now I am 2 months into a 14-month mat leave with a chill baby. I have the time and inclination to PROPERLY train a puppy. Please don't momsplain babies and children to me, I thank you very kindly. For real, please don't.
People love to suggest this, insisting that I couldn't possibly understand how much work puppies are. I find this insulting and I will NOT do a rescue, not with young kids. You just don't know what behaviors they might have.
I am an introvert and feel nervous about being asked by the dog for attention all of the time. I also get, I think, more than normally irritated when there are too many things requiring my immediate attention at once (baby crying, husband and daughter talking to me at the same time while trying to follow a recipe, for example).
That said, this question is about suitable breeds, not whether or not we should get a dog. Trust me, my brain is working on that question constantly. So here are some breeds we've considered. The point of this question is for mefites to suggest breeds I haven't thought of and discuss my worries about breeds we've considered (am I being too picky (probably)? Objection is unfounded? Actually not such a big problem as I'm afraid it might be?). As you may tell, I am a classic overthinker. So here goes:
Labrador Retriever - this is what we want in an ideal world. But I am afraid this dog needs WAY, WAY more exercise than we could possibly provide. I've been told this is a dog for runners. Walks just aren't enough. We do have the backyard to play catch in, but what about the winter months? I would hate to fail any dog in this regard. Would dogwalking cost a small fortune? Otherwise, the perfect dog. I would love to hear answers that encourage us that we can take good care of one.
Poodle mixes - I'm not proud of us for this, but neither of us care much for them even though they seem to be ideal. We don't really like the curly long hair. Yeah, shallow. The hair around their mouths is always wet from drinking their water.
German Sherherd - lovely dog, but again high exercise needs.
Tiny dogs - this is a nope for my husband
Any kind of bull mastiff type dog - too aggressive. Absolute nope.
Terrier - We like them. But I've read they are also really aggressive? And barky?
Cane Corso - aggressive
Bernese Mountain dog - I LOVE these guys but their lifespan is so short (6 to 8 years)
Greyhound - husband does not like
Pug - I love them, husband says they are ugly and have too many breathing problems
Husky - gorgeous, amazing dogs but exercise need is very high
Ok. That's all I can think of for now. I'll try not to threadsit but I may have questions about your suggestions. It would be so nice if we could have a dog. Thanks very much lovely mefites!
A little about us:
Middle aged couple with an eight-year old and baby. We own a reasonably-sized house with 3 levels and have a very large backyard. We live in a part of Canada where temps are below or at least near zero at least 6 months of the year, with snow. My husband grew up with dogs, although rurally, so they didn't live full time in the house. I didn't. My sister has 2 dogs and 4 kids, so I've seen one example of how dog + family works. I work office hours, my husband leaves the house at about 5:30am and comes home about 6pm. There is a neighbourhood dog walker whom I've met. We live in a neighbourhood where there are lots and lots of dogs and there are huge parks around. An off leash dog park is nearby, but I think mostly we would need to take the car there. We have a Subaru Forester. We have a below-average amount of night and weekend commitments, I think. We take a 2-week vacation most years. I really wish we could, but realistically we can't do a morning walk and we can't do a lunchtime walk. I would have to rely on a walker for this.
Right now I am 2 months into a 14-month mat leave with a chill baby. I have the time and inclination to PROPERLY train a puppy. Please don't momsplain babies and children to me, I thank you very kindly. For real, please don't.
People love to suggest this, insisting that I couldn't possibly understand how much work puppies are. I find this insulting and I will NOT do a rescue, not with young kids. You just don't know what behaviors they might have.
I am an introvert and feel nervous about being asked by the dog for attention all of the time. I also get, I think, more than normally irritated when there are too many things requiring my immediate attention at once (baby crying, husband and daughter talking to me at the same time while trying to follow a recipe, for example).
That said, this question is about suitable breeds, not whether or not we should get a dog. Trust me, my brain is working on that question constantly. So here are some breeds we've considered. The point of this question is for mefites to suggest breeds I haven't thought of and discuss my worries about breeds we've considered (am I being too picky (probably)? Objection is unfounded? Actually not such a big problem as I'm afraid it might be?). As you may tell, I am a classic overthinker. So here goes:
Labrador Retriever - this is what we want in an ideal world. But I am afraid this dog needs WAY, WAY more exercise than we could possibly provide. I've been told this is a dog for runners. Walks just aren't enough. We do have the backyard to play catch in, but what about the winter months? I would hate to fail any dog in this regard. Would dogwalking cost a small fortune? Otherwise, the perfect dog. I would love to hear answers that encourage us that we can take good care of one.
Poodle mixes - I'm not proud of us for this, but neither of us care much for them even though they seem to be ideal. We don't really like the curly long hair. Yeah, shallow. The hair around their mouths is always wet from drinking their water.
German Sherherd - lovely dog, but again high exercise needs.
Tiny dogs - this is a nope for my husband
Any kind of bull mastiff type dog - too aggressive. Absolute nope.
Terrier - We like them. But I've read they are also really aggressive? And barky?
Cane Corso - aggressive
Bernese Mountain dog - I LOVE these guys but their lifespan is so short (6 to 8 years)
Greyhound - husband does not like
Pug - I love them, husband says they are ugly and have too many breathing problems
Husky - gorgeous, amazing dogs but exercise need is very high
Ok. That's all I can think of for now. I'll try not to threadsit but I may have questions about your suggestions. It would be so nice if we could have a dog. Thanks very much lovely mefites!
Bichon. You don’t have to give them the stupid show clip- just a periodic buzz. They’re friendly with everything from the largest adult to the smallest child, and they’re not aggresive or overly energetic, but will happily follow you and do with you whatever you want. They are very healthy, not too small, and live a long time. They are also very obedient and take well to training. Also as someone with a large dog who is becoming increasingly hard to care for as she ages, a smaller dog is much easier to care for when for instance, their back legs start failing. I’d just pick up a likely candidate from the pound- small white puppies are legion there- but if a purebred is the way to go, find a Bichon breeder- one of their number just won a big dog show so I’m sure your local breeders are advertising. I’ve never met a bad Bichon, and when my current dog passes I’ll probably get one of them.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 11:13 AM on July 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 11:13 AM on July 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Cavalier king Charles spaniel or a bassett hound. Neither have the tiny dog look nor need much exercise.
posted by beccaj at 11:15 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by beccaj at 11:15 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Oh hey - one small thing. I'm not worried about exercising the puppy over the next year. I definitely have time for that right now.
posted by kitcat at 11:15 AM on July 26, 2018
posted by kitcat at 11:15 AM on July 26, 2018
Terrier - We like them. But I've read they are also really aggressive? And barky?
With the caveat that every dog is gonna be different and good training is so important, I have a border terrier, and he's the politest little thing in the whole world. He's a gentle sweetheart (the vet always remarks on what a gentle mouth he has, even when he's stressed and they're trying to give him treats) who plays hard, but absolutely knows the boundaries of play. He's extremely quiet and only barks sometimes when he's playing or when he's roughhousing with other dogs. He's also litter box trained so can use the bathroom by himself while I'm at work (super convenient) and he's hardy and tough in Chicago winters. I'm the only human he has, so 100% of his attention needs are handled by me and me alone, and his particular personality is aloof enough that I don't feel hovered over as an introvert myself. He's smart enough that he could be taught to be a gentleman, but not so smart that I'm worried he's overly bored during the day.
I plan on adopting a senior rescue dog next dog I get, but for my first dog I am extremely happy I got a border. I did a lot of research prior, talked to several breeders, and was confident that he was going to mesh well with my life.
And puppy time honestly was not that bad. I appreciate him so much more as an adult dog, but since he was taught as a teeny dog by his birth mom how to use a litter box he came to me pretty well trained. Only ate a few things that were important.
Also he looks handsome af riding shotgun in my Subaru.
posted by phunniemee at 11:18 AM on July 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
With the caveat that every dog is gonna be different and good training is so important, I have a border terrier, and he's the politest little thing in the whole world. He's a gentle sweetheart (the vet always remarks on what a gentle mouth he has, even when he's stressed and they're trying to give him treats) who plays hard, but absolutely knows the boundaries of play. He's extremely quiet and only barks sometimes when he's playing or when he's roughhousing with other dogs. He's also litter box trained so can use the bathroom by himself while I'm at work (super convenient) and he's hardy and tough in Chicago winters. I'm the only human he has, so 100% of his attention needs are handled by me and me alone, and his particular personality is aloof enough that I don't feel hovered over as an introvert myself. He's smart enough that he could be taught to be a gentleman, but not so smart that I'm worried he's overly bored during the day.
I plan on adopting a senior rescue dog next dog I get, but for my first dog I am extremely happy I got a border. I did a lot of research prior, talked to several breeders, and was confident that he was going to mesh well with my life.
And puppy time honestly was not that bad. I appreciate him so much more as an adult dog, but since he was taught as a teeny dog by his birth mom how to use a litter box he came to me pretty well trained. Only ate a few things that were important.
Also he looks handsome af riding shotgun in my Subaru.
posted by phunniemee at 11:18 AM on July 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
Honestly, I think the biggest gamble you can make for behavior problems is getting a puppy, not any particular breed. Some dogs just have weird hardwired-seeming stuff that is near impossible to train out of them, and at least with an adult dog, at least you know what that is going in. Dogs just vary wildly within breeds in terms of temperament. And breeders aren't just thinking about breeding for temperament- they have to also pick the dogs to mate that look in line with the breed. "Rescue" dogs don't necessarily mean dogs who've been in bad situations- they're very often either accidental puppies or, for adults, pets that a very loving family couldn't take care of anymore. Rescue puppies in particular are very unlikely to have already had bad experiences that would lead to aggression. The rescue should be able to tell you the situation they came from and whether there's any risk of weirdness. They have the benefit of being able to observe the dog interact with other dogs and a variety of people, so they can report accurately on its pros and cons. They don't have the same monetary incentive that a breeder does to get you to take the dog.
posted by quiet coyote at 11:19 AM on July 26, 2018 [25 favorites]
posted by quiet coyote at 11:19 AM on July 26, 2018 [25 favorites]
terriers - i am a HUGE terrier fan but friends got one recently and all the things i love about them are driving them nuts because they grew up around labs or goldens. Not aggression really and not even barking as those are individual dogs traits, but stubborn and spunky and high energy. that being said, love westies. Most west highlands i have been around LOVE snow and have huge personalities and are very independant. That independance would suit your need for a less attention needing dog but if you expect perfect dog behaviour, that might not happen as they are a little harder to train and some times don't do what you want just because.
posted by domino at 11:19 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by domino at 11:19 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'd be looking for a Golden Retriever. They are a good size when grown, gentle with kids, and silly sweet lovable oafs.
posted by onebyone at 11:22 AM on July 26, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by onebyone at 11:22 AM on July 26, 2018 [12 favorites]
What are you looking for in a dog? Why would a lab be ideal? How small is a tiny dog that your husband is opposed to? What is your ideal weight/size?
One of the ladies at my dad's nursing home has what I think is a white Scottish terrier - he's a lovely dog. I'd say he's about 35 pounds (he's a little stout), very even tempered, curious but not intrusive.
posted by Squeak Attack at 11:23 AM on July 26, 2018
One of the ladies at my dad's nursing home has what I think is a white Scottish terrier - he's a lovely dog. I'd say he's about 35 pounds (he's a little stout), very even tempered, curious but not intrusive.
posted by Squeak Attack at 11:23 AM on July 26, 2018
Golden Retrievers are the right answer here. They do need a normal-dog amount of exercise until age 2 when they slow down, but I think you'll find it's not that difficult to keep a dog active as you'd think.
posted by bbqturtle at 11:23 AM on July 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by bbqturtle at 11:23 AM on July 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
I've been told this is a dog for runners. Walks just aren't enough.
Okay, I'm not a dog person, but wow, I have known looooots of people with labs over the years, including my grandparents having lab mixes for basically my entire life, and my grandparents were definitely never runners, and their dogs have always seemed completely fine. It sounds like you have space to throw a ball. Throwing a ball means that the dog runs and you don't. They love this. Even I, the dog-stupid person who has not run since I was a child, was capable of managing this level of exercise with my grandparents' dogs when they were on vacations, and their yard wasn't that big, just not-a-postage-stamp.
posted by Sequence at 11:27 AM on July 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Okay, I'm not a dog person, but wow, I have known looooots of people with labs over the years, including my grandparents having lab mixes for basically my entire life, and my grandparents were definitely never runners, and their dogs have always seemed completely fine. It sounds like you have space to throw a ball. Throwing a ball means that the dog runs and you don't. They love this. Even I, the dog-stupid person who has not run since I was a child, was capable of managing this level of exercise with my grandparents' dogs when they were on vacations, and their yard wasn't that big, just not-a-postage-stamp.
posted by Sequence at 11:27 AM on July 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
I love terriers, and won't ever have any other kind of dog. We are on our second Westie (hi domino!) and both of them have been unpredictable-to-aggressive around small children. And our first Westie was a therapy dog who was enormously patient and tolerant around elderly people and psychiatric patients. The current Westie is a retired show dog with performance (agility, etc.) titles so well-trained and accustomed to being around people.
In my pre-terrier days, I had retrievers and herding dogs. Yes, they need exercise. But a big yard provides ample opportunities for said exercise. Throwing a ball for them to retrieve or having squirrels to chase will fill the bill quite nicely.
If you start with a puppy now, most any breed will be matured enough by the time you go back to work after maternity leave to be trusted in the house while you're gone, without running up big dog-walker bills. Keep in mind, though, that labs don't reach full emotional maturity until about three years of age. Before that, they're kind of like goofy teenagers - not holy terrors, but not always entirely trustworthy either.
Remember, dogs want to be part of your family. They will adapt to your life and needs more than you need to adapt to theirs.
posted by DrGail at 11:31 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
In my pre-terrier days, I had retrievers and herding dogs. Yes, they need exercise. But a big yard provides ample opportunities for said exercise. Throwing a ball for them to retrieve or having squirrels to chase will fill the bill quite nicely.
If you start with a puppy now, most any breed will be matured enough by the time you go back to work after maternity leave to be trusted in the house while you're gone, without running up big dog-walker bills. Keep in mind, though, that labs don't reach full emotional maturity until about three years of age. Before that, they're kind of like goofy teenagers - not holy terrors, but not always entirely trustworthy either.
Remember, dogs want to be part of your family. They will adapt to your life and needs more than you need to adapt to theirs.
posted by DrGail at 11:31 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I thought golden retrievers were like labs, only even bigger and even more exercise needy + rambunctious. My sister-in-law had one, much beloved, but he was like a goofy, unintentionally destructive small horse. We would love one.
What are you looking for in a dog? Why would a lab be ideal?
My husband wants the platonic ideal of the man's companion dog - hence a lab or golden. Me - please don't dislike me for it - I want my family to be happy, but ultimately - have a dog that causes me the fewest problems as possible. I promise to love it and take good care of it.
posted by kitcat at 11:33 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
What are you looking for in a dog? Why would a lab be ideal?
My husband wants the platonic ideal of the man's companion dog - hence a lab or golden. Me - please don't dislike me for it - I want my family to be happy, but ultimately - have a dog that causes me the fewest problems as possible. I promise to love it and take good care of it.
posted by kitcat at 11:33 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Arg, sorry, I really made myself sound like an ass above. I just mean - as the worrier, thinker, researcher, problem solver of the family - any problems with the dog are problem I will have to be the one to solve - at least planning-wise.
posted by kitcat at 11:40 AM on July 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by kitcat at 11:40 AM on July 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Your husband is gone more than 12 hours per day, 5 days a week. If your husband is thinking that this dog is going to be his companion, then I think he's going to be disappointed in any dog y'all get. In general, dogs bond with the human that feeds them, walks them, and trains them, and it sounds like for the first 10 months in your home, that will be you. This is going to be your dog, not his, unless he commits to an extraordinary effort. So personally, I would put his preferences much, much lower than yours.
All that being said, get a pug, or how about a french bulldog.
posted by muddgirl at 11:47 AM on July 26, 2018 [34 favorites]
All that being said, get a pug, or how about a french bulldog.
posted by muddgirl at 11:47 AM on July 26, 2018 [34 favorites]
I have a sweet old basset hound and they are great, low-effort dogs. Mine is particularly calm with babies and rambunctious toddlers. However, they are also notoriously stubborn and difficult to train. Would not recommend raising from a puppy, especially if you are irritable.
posted by galvanized unicorn at 11:48 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by galvanized unicorn at 11:48 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
OK here's my pitch for a french bulldog: They are the cutest, they are a little larger than pugs, and they tend to be more laid back and chill. Both breeds tend to be good around children who are taught to handle dogs gently and politely.
posted by muddgirl at 11:52 AM on July 26, 2018
posted by muddgirl at 11:52 AM on July 26, 2018
I love German shepherds, and own a German shepherd, but I would argue strongly against getting a German shepherd puppy if behavior is very important to you. A lot of inbreeding even among purebred breeders who are trying really hard means you can get stuck with a puppy who is hardwired for fearfulness or aggression, and it doesn't always kick in until about the nine month point. I have a dog who loves us desperately, who I tried very hard to train as a puppy, who has still drawn blood from my husband through anxious biting. When you have young children it is much more of a big deal.
If you absolutely must get a German shepherd puppy I would recommend getting a working dog purebred - they are bred for temperament rather than show quality, and are a bit less neurotic.
posted by corb at 11:55 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
If you absolutely must get a German shepherd puppy I would recommend getting a working dog purebred - they are bred for temperament rather than show quality, and are a bit less neurotic.
posted by corb at 11:55 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I am you in many respects, esp. the introverted, irritable-when-overtasked bit and being frank about "a dog that causes the fewest problems." I'm also a single-ish mom who has never had a dog, and so even more wary of another high-care creature in my orbit. For a number of reasons we (meaning: I) am taking the plunge, and after many years of research and meeting adult dogs of various breeds, one of the few dogs that meets my logical requirements (which are similar to yours) as well as some emotional requirements is a Eurasier.
posted by cocoagirl at 11:56 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by cocoagirl at 11:56 AM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
If there's one thing I've learned growing up with a number of dogs of different breeds in my life, (9 dogs total owned by either myself, my parents, or family members close enough that I spent lots of time with them over the years), it's that dogs are just like people- no two of them are completely alike, even if they're of the same breed. They each have their own distinct personalities, needs, anxieties, etc. I sincerely think you'll find that few of them act in ways that are consistent with the traits commonly ascribed to their respective breeds.
For example, I've spent the last six years getting to know my in-laws' two Labradors (one chocolate and one yellow) and I have never, ever met such sweet, lazy dogs. Though they do love to pick up toys to have you throw them to the other side of the room and though they do occasionally steal a slipper so that you chase them slowly around the kitchen, they never seem to want for the kind of physical activity you seem to be describing. Though they're each upwards of 80 pounds, they insist on climbing into whatever piece of furniture you're on, regardless of how they'll fit, and nap on you all day. Actually, they nap 60% of the day whether you're there or not. All this said, I really have come to believe that this is just the character they were individually born with and certainly another dog may need a lot of running and attention. You never know!
It's for this reason I'd encourage you to maybe reconsider adopting a shelter dog. There are a number of shelters and rescues, especially ones for specific breeds, that have the dogs in their care for a long enough period that they really understand who a dog is as an individual. I think removing that unknown element will save you a lot of stress, because their behaviors are a known quantity. I have no doubt at all that you'd be perfectly capable of caring for a puppy and meeting its needs, so I only suggest this in the spirit of "this is an adult dog, we know how it acts with kids/babies/adults/other dogs. It has (x) personality quirks and it likes (Y) but dislikes (z)."
Lastly, to your point about breed recs, I thought much the same as you did initially about Labradors until I met the ones I mentioned above. They're both sweet, intelligent dogs who get along with everyone and mostly do their own thing but appreciate attention when given. Do also note: they shed like crazy twice a year and have a tendency to drool on everything. Not as much as some breeds like Basset Hounds, but you would definitely notice. They also have actual anxiety problems which I chalk up to their intelligence.
I'd also like to tip a rec in for the Doberman Pinscher. I had one purebred Doberman growing up and I've never seen such a stoic, even tempered dog as him. Always kept a respectful distance. Never begged for food, barked, hardly shed, didn't care about toys of any kind, but still loved to be pet, take treats, and pull you along on brisk walks. He would kind of patrol the house when he was bored or nap. Downside there was his strength and he had a habit of literally eating the fence to pieces to escape the yard. He was never destructive in the house, for what that's worth. He often suffered my baby sister pulling on his tail and never became agitated. I never saw him interact with another dog, however.
posted by Krazor at 11:58 AM on July 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
For example, I've spent the last six years getting to know my in-laws' two Labradors (one chocolate and one yellow) and I have never, ever met such sweet, lazy dogs. Though they do love to pick up toys to have you throw them to the other side of the room and though they do occasionally steal a slipper so that you chase them slowly around the kitchen, they never seem to want for the kind of physical activity you seem to be describing. Though they're each upwards of 80 pounds, they insist on climbing into whatever piece of furniture you're on, regardless of how they'll fit, and nap on you all day. Actually, they nap 60% of the day whether you're there or not. All this said, I really have come to believe that this is just the character they were individually born with and certainly another dog may need a lot of running and attention. You never know!
It's for this reason I'd encourage you to maybe reconsider adopting a shelter dog. There are a number of shelters and rescues, especially ones for specific breeds, that have the dogs in their care for a long enough period that they really understand who a dog is as an individual. I think removing that unknown element will save you a lot of stress, because their behaviors are a known quantity. I have no doubt at all that you'd be perfectly capable of caring for a puppy and meeting its needs, so I only suggest this in the spirit of "this is an adult dog, we know how it acts with kids/babies/adults/other dogs. It has (x) personality quirks and it likes (Y) but dislikes (z)."
Lastly, to your point about breed recs, I thought much the same as you did initially about Labradors until I met the ones I mentioned above. They're both sweet, intelligent dogs who get along with everyone and mostly do their own thing but appreciate attention when given. Do also note: they shed like crazy twice a year and have a tendency to drool on everything. Not as much as some breeds like Basset Hounds, but you would definitely notice. They also have actual anxiety problems which I chalk up to their intelligence.
I'd also like to tip a rec in for the Doberman Pinscher. I had one purebred Doberman growing up and I've never seen such a stoic, even tempered dog as him. Always kept a respectful distance. Never begged for food, barked, hardly shed, didn't care about toys of any kind, but still loved to be pet, take treats, and pull you along on brisk walks. He would kind of patrol the house when he was bored or nap. Downside there was his strength and he had a habit of literally eating the fence to pieces to escape the yard. He was never destructive in the house, for what that's worth. He often suffered my baby sister pulling on his tail and never became agitated. I never saw him interact with another dog, however.
posted by Krazor at 11:58 AM on July 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
My SIL has a schnauzer that is a pretty good family dog. Hers is a mini but they do come in different sizes
posted by MadMadam at 12:00 PM on July 26, 2018
posted by MadMadam at 12:00 PM on July 26, 2018
The rescue should be able to tell you the situation they came from and whether there's any risk of weirdness. They have the benefit of being able to observe the dog interact with other dogs and a variety of people, so they can report accurately on its pros and cons. They don't have the same monetary incentive that a breeder does to get you to take the dog.
Seconding this for sure. Here's the thing, let's take all ethical and moral questions about breeding dogs out of the equation and just look at it as a consumer: you should get a dog at the pound because the pound is the best dog store.
1. The people at the pound know about how the dogs interact, and in most cases know about the dog's story. You can visit and play with the dog as many times as you want before deciding whether to buy it.
2. The people at the pound don't care about the economics of selling dogs and don't make more money from selling more dogs. Imagine a car dealer who said "actually Hondas suck for people with your needs, you should go to the Dodge place" - well that's just what these dog dealers will do!
3. Their dogs are the cheapest dogs!
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:00 PM on July 26, 2018 [26 favorites]
Seconding this for sure. Here's the thing, let's take all ethical and moral questions about breeding dogs out of the equation and just look at it as a consumer: you should get a dog at the pound because the pound is the best dog store.
1. The people at the pound know about how the dogs interact, and in most cases know about the dog's story. You can visit and play with the dog as many times as you want before deciding whether to buy it.
2. The people at the pound don't care about the economics of selling dogs and don't make more money from selling more dogs. Imagine a car dealer who said "actually Hondas suck for people with your needs, you should go to the Dodge place" - well that's just what these dog dealers will do!
3. Their dogs are the cheapest dogs!
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:00 PM on July 26, 2018 [26 favorites]
Seconding basset -- we've got a 6-year-old one we've had since a puppy and he is super friendly and affectionate, but lazy as heck and doesn't need a lot of exercise. One dog book we have said they are "incapable of biting a person", and we've found that to be true. Loooooves people, almost to a fault. (dog tax) We got a basset after meeting several over the years and we never met an unpleasant one. Drawback: the line from the Elvis song about hound-dogs "cryin' all the time" seems to be true of at least our basset, so if a whiny dog will annoy you, a basset might not be the one. They also have a hound 'smell' which may be a concern.
Our other best dog ever was a Old English Sheepdog mutt -- he looked like a sheepdog in general, but maybe some spaniel? Also lazy, laid around the house, but also very much wanted to people-please, not stubborn at all.
We had a cairn terrier, who was nice, but she was barky and very neurotic; however, I'm pretty sure that was just a trait of this dog, not the breed in general.
My inlaws, both in their 70s, have adopted rescue west highland terriers over the years, which is just their speed: aloof and doesn't need a lot of attention, doesn't need to run around crazy, just likes its chewtoys and a soft spot on the couch. They were all adult dogs when acquired, I can't vouch for puppy.
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:03 PM on July 26, 2018
Our other best dog ever was a Old English Sheepdog mutt -- he looked like a sheepdog in general, but maybe some spaniel? Also lazy, laid around the house, but also very much wanted to people-please, not stubborn at all.
We had a cairn terrier, who was nice, but she was barky and very neurotic; however, I'm pretty sure that was just a trait of this dog, not the breed in general.
My inlaws, both in their 70s, have adopted rescue west highland terriers over the years, which is just their speed: aloof and doesn't need a lot of attention, doesn't need to run around crazy, just likes its chewtoys and a soft spot on the couch. They were all adult dogs when acquired, I can't vouch for puppy.
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:03 PM on July 26, 2018
Golden retriever! My then ten-year-old daughter wanted a dog, so she researched all the breeds and made her case that this was the dog we wanted. She was so right. A dream to train, because the dog was so anxious to please it was practically telepathic. Affectionate and sweet, but obeyed the "go away" command too.
I have a bichon frise now, and she's a nice dog, but no comparison.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 12:09 PM on July 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
I have a bichon frise now, and she's a nice dog, but no comparison.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 12:09 PM on July 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
To me it seems like your husband wants a companion dog, but you are the one who is going to train and manage it. That is not a good proposition.
One thing in response to the above comments: all dogs sleep most of the day and night. Most puppies spend all their awake time chewing everything to bits, my pup even chewed our building when he couldn't find enough toys, shoes, pillows, mattresses, or other random objects. It's a terrible 1-2 years, but they grow out of it. Racing dogs like Afghans sleep even more and don't chew as much, so they are actually very good for families with little time for walking.
The way you describe your life, and your family, a labradoodle would probably be a good solution. My cousin has one and my aunt often cares for it when they are on holiday, where it plays with my dog. It's a very good dog though it barks a bit much for my taste. Small dogs and specially terriers often bark a lot, because they are bred to do so.
All of the larger dogs you are thinking about need a lot of training, and I agree you can do that while on maternity leave and it will be fine in the longer run. But you run the risk that the dog will only obey you. Just today at lunch I was watching the spectacle of a gentleman guest trying to get my dog to lie down using the correct command and failing completely. My (GS/Border Collie dog only obeys me. (Obviously I eventually called the dog, but sometimes with older men you have to let them do their thing). If your husband doesn't actively participate in the training, there is no way a dog with hunting or shepherding instincts is going to respect him, and that includes walking the dog will be a pain, with a dragging and barking dog. My current dog is an example of that, but at least he is friendly. The German Shepherd I had as a teen was literally dangerous when I wasn't there, though he was the sweetest dog alive when I was there. In our family, we've had hunting dogs with the same issues. Working dog breeds are tough and need training.
posted by mumimor at 12:20 PM on July 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
One thing in response to the above comments: all dogs sleep most of the day and night. Most puppies spend all their awake time chewing everything to bits, my pup even chewed our building when he couldn't find enough toys, shoes, pillows, mattresses, or other random objects. It's a terrible 1-2 years, but they grow out of it. Racing dogs like Afghans sleep even more and don't chew as much, so they are actually very good for families with little time for walking.
The way you describe your life, and your family, a labradoodle would probably be a good solution. My cousin has one and my aunt often cares for it when they are on holiday, where it plays with my dog. It's a very good dog though it barks a bit much for my taste. Small dogs and specially terriers often bark a lot, because they are bred to do so.
All of the larger dogs you are thinking about need a lot of training, and I agree you can do that while on maternity leave and it will be fine in the longer run. But you run the risk that the dog will only obey you. Just today at lunch I was watching the spectacle of a gentleman guest trying to get my dog to lie down using the correct command and failing completely. My (GS/Border Collie dog only obeys me. (Obviously I eventually called the dog, but sometimes with older men you have to let them do their thing). If your husband doesn't actively participate in the training, there is no way a dog with hunting or shepherding instincts is going to respect him, and that includes walking the dog will be a pain, with a dragging and barking dog. My current dog is an example of that, but at least he is friendly. The German Shepherd I had as a teen was literally dangerous when I wasn't there, though he was the sweetest dog alive when I was there. In our family, we've had hunting dogs with the same issues. Working dog breeds are tough and need training.
posted by mumimor at 12:20 PM on July 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
I've never known labs to be high-energy, though puppies are another matter. The labs I've known are all happy ball-and-stick chasers, like to shamble around the park a bit, never really break into a run. If anything, the labs I knew/know love food more than walks. One would open the cabinets when his owners were away and eat the bread. Retrievers, same. They're both super-friendly breeds and I don't think you can go wrong with them.
posted by Armed Only With Hubris at 12:41 PM on July 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Armed Only With Hubris at 12:41 PM on July 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Nthing that a rescue, especially from a foster situation, will have a more-well-known personality profile than a dog from a breeder (you can get puppies from a rescue, and there are pure-breed rescue networks as well). If you do go with a breeder, do your research, meet the parent dogs, and make sure that the breeder will take back the dog should you ever need to part with it, even years down the road (no provision for returning the dog to the breeder is a major red flag -- good breeders don't want their dogs to end up abandoned, in a shelter, or unnecessarily euthanized).
My advice on choosing a dog for your needs is the following:
--Select a dog that you can physically pick up and move to a different room. This doesn't mean it has to be a super tiny dog - but even 45 pounds is more manageable than 80 or 100+. When the dog has diarrhea all over everything and you're trying to keep him from eating or rolling in it while the baby is crying and there's a pot on the stove and the eight year old has friends over who are all running around etc it's really helpful to be able to easily lift the dog up and put him outside or in the bathroom or something while you deal.
--Smaller dog also means that 8 year old can help with dog's care sooner. My 8 year old niece can't walk their great dane/lab mix yet because he's too strong for her to safely control (I'm a 6ft tall adult woman who lifts and I still find it hard to walk that guy; if there's a squirrel? forget it. He's otherwise very well behaved and awesome with the kids.).
--Get a short-haired dog. I groom my poodle/terrier mix myself, and it's pretty easy (she's a chill dog, and only weighs 10lbs), but it's another monthly chore on my list. If I take her to get a professional job, it runs about $100.
Anecdote: A Bernese mountain dog attacked/bit my chihuahua many years ago when the owner lost control of the leash while walking down the street. (I'm sure there's an anecdote for every dog breed, though.)
posted by melissasaurus at 12:42 PM on July 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
My advice on choosing a dog for your needs is the following:
--Select a dog that you can physically pick up and move to a different room. This doesn't mean it has to be a super tiny dog - but even 45 pounds is more manageable than 80 or 100+. When the dog has diarrhea all over everything and you're trying to keep him from eating or rolling in it while the baby is crying and there's a pot on the stove and the eight year old has friends over who are all running around etc it's really helpful to be able to easily lift the dog up and put him outside or in the bathroom or something while you deal.
--Smaller dog also means that 8 year old can help with dog's care sooner. My 8 year old niece can't walk their great dane/lab mix yet because he's too strong for her to safely control (I'm a 6ft tall adult woman who lifts and I still find it hard to walk that guy; if there's a squirrel? forget it. He's otherwise very well behaved and awesome with the kids.).
--Get a short-haired dog. I groom my poodle/terrier mix myself, and it's pretty easy (she's a chill dog, and only weighs 10lbs), but it's another monthly chore on my list. If I take her to get a professional job, it runs about $100.
Anecdote: A Bernese mountain dog attacked/bit my chihuahua many years ago when the owner lost control of the leash while walking down the street. (I'm sure there's an anecdote for every dog breed, though.)
posted by melissasaurus at 12:42 PM on July 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Besenji mix, pure breeds are unkind according to folks I know that own them. The sweetest most amazing dog ever was my Besenji mix. Looked very Benji, temperment of an angel.
posted by jbenben at 12:44 PM on July 26, 2018
posted by jbenben at 12:44 PM on July 26, 2018
If your husband doesn't actively participate in the training, there is no way a dog with hunting or shepherding instincts is going to respect him, and that includes walking the dog will be a pain, with a dragging and barking dog.
Wanted to second this. Dogs listen to the people who have made an effort to train them. It's usually pretty easy to get kids to help you train, because they think it's awesome to hold treats and have the dog do things, but it is much harder to convince husbands of the need for rigorous obedience training. See: why my husband is the only one in the household who has been nipped.
posted by corb at 1:02 PM on July 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Wanted to second this. Dogs listen to the people who have made an effort to train them. It's usually pretty easy to get kids to help you train, because they think it's awesome to hold treats and have the dog do things, but it is much harder to convince husbands of the need for rigorous obedience training. See: why my husband is the only one in the household who has been nipped.
posted by corb at 1:02 PM on July 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
As a former dog-walker/runner and current shelter dog volunteer here.....
Maybe a foster to adopt/foster-fail option will be best for you. I've walked a bunch of labs/lab mixes, and they're all over the place on energy level. Some have happily run me into the ground and then continue to run circles around and others just stop dead in their tracks/refuse to move after 1 mile or so of a run (but will walk for about 3 miles before refusing to budge).
Fostering to adopt will give you a trial period with the dog. If it doesn't work out, there's no pressure to keep a dog that's not a good fit for your family.
Also, your husband and 8 year old kiddo will definitely also have to be on the same ground rules as you for how the dog is expected to behave. If you are trying to train the dog to do one thing, but your husband and older kid ignore that/are lax about it, it'll take a much longer time to train the dog.
posted by astapasta24 at 1:07 PM on July 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
Maybe a foster to adopt/foster-fail option will be best for you. I've walked a bunch of labs/lab mixes, and they're all over the place on energy level. Some have happily run me into the ground and then continue to run circles around and others just stop dead in their tracks/refuse to move after 1 mile or so of a run (but will walk for about 3 miles before refusing to budge).
Fostering to adopt will give you a trial period with the dog. If it doesn't work out, there's no pressure to keep a dog that's not a good fit for your family.
Also, your husband and 8 year old kiddo will definitely also have to be on the same ground rules as you for how the dog is expected to behave. If you are trying to train the dog to do one thing, but your husband and older kid ignore that/are lax about it, it'll take a much longer time to train the dog.
posted by astapasta24 at 1:07 PM on July 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
Oh do I like your question and honesty. I worked for summers and vacation in college at a dog boarding kennels, 30 plus dogs every day in high season. I read carefully, line by line, through all the answers but didnt' see the one I was looking for. Especially given your name. My answer is ... a cat.
posted by RoadScholar at 1:10 PM on July 26, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by RoadScholar at 1:10 PM on July 26, 2018 [19 favorites]
Wow, I was excited to talk to you about basset hounds until I saw the answer from RoadScholar, who is is correct... the pet that fits your needs is a cat!
posted by samthemander at 1:17 PM on July 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by samthemander at 1:17 PM on July 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
I agree with everyone who's said that an adult rescue would be easier to predict temperament, because there's so much variance between dogs in the same breed and if you want to be sure that's it's the easiest dog possible, you should go with an adult dog where you already know the temperament. With a puppy, even with the best training, you might end up with one that grows up into the kind of dog you don't want.
I also want to push back on your assertion that bully breeds are too aggressive and an absolute NO. Bully breeds are getting a bad rap right now, but they're no more aggressive than any other breed of dog. They're listed 9th on the ten most "aggressive" dog breeds that I just looked up at random, behind German Shepherds, Jack Russell terriers, Dalmatians, Dachshunds, and Chihuahuas, for example.
posted by Weeping_angel at 1:22 PM on July 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
I also want to push back on your assertion that bully breeds are too aggressive and an absolute NO. Bully breeds are getting a bad rap right now, but they're no more aggressive than any other breed of dog. They're listed 9th on the ten most "aggressive" dog breeds that I just looked up at random, behind German Shepherds, Jack Russell terriers, Dalmatians, Dachshunds, and Chihuahuas, for example.
posted by Weeping_angel at 1:22 PM on July 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
You are going to be the dog's companion, not your husband. My husband works from home and in October 2017 we got a 3 month old rescue puppy. Our dog LOVES me but when my husband leaves the room he couldn't give two shits about me until my husband comes back. Dogs bond with the person they're with the most and that's just the reality of it. Puppies are an unbelievable amount of work and despite spending a LOT of time training our puppy he is still his own little 'person' and there's only so much influence you can have on a dog, they have their own personality. He didn't sit or lay down for the first 3 months we had him until the day we got him fixed. No joke.
The thing that troubles me most about your question is your extreme generalizations about breeds. Dogs are all different. I've lived with many many dogs in my lifetime and they were all so different. I've had Jack Russell terriers, a pit bull, a Border Terrier, Poodle, German Shepherds, Dobermans, Dachsunds, a Miniature Pinscher. I'm probably forgetting some. Currently we have a Yorkshire terrier/Border terrier and a Kelpie/GSD mix. The Jack Russells we had when I was a kid were all totally different. I'm especially puzzled by your generalization about terriers. There are at least 30 different breeds of terrier.
I really get the sense that you only want answers that align with your assumptions about breeds and dog ownership. I don't know what to say that is helpful but doesn't ignore some of your parameters. You should adopt a young/adult Golden Retriever or Labrador. That is what would probably work best for your family which really is what you're after right? I think following the advice of people who have experience with dogs is probably the wisest thing. If I thought I could advise you to get an adult Pitbull rescue I would but I don't think I can get away with that.
posted by emotionalmotionsickness at 1:29 PM on July 26, 2018 [12 favorites]
The thing that troubles me most about your question is your extreme generalizations about breeds. Dogs are all different. I've lived with many many dogs in my lifetime and they were all so different. I've had Jack Russell terriers, a pit bull, a Border Terrier, Poodle, German Shepherds, Dobermans, Dachsunds, a Miniature Pinscher. I'm probably forgetting some. Currently we have a Yorkshire terrier/Border terrier and a Kelpie/GSD mix. The Jack Russells we had when I was a kid were all totally different. I'm especially puzzled by your generalization about terriers. There are at least 30 different breeds of terrier.
I really get the sense that you only want answers that align with your assumptions about breeds and dog ownership. I don't know what to say that is helpful but doesn't ignore some of your parameters. You should adopt a young/adult Golden Retriever or Labrador. That is what would probably work best for your family which really is what you're after right? I think following the advice of people who have experience with dogs is probably the wisest thing. If I thought I could advise you to get an adult Pitbull rescue I would but I don't think I can get away with that.
posted by emotionalmotionsickness at 1:29 PM on July 26, 2018 [12 favorites]
Please don't get a pug or a French bulldog. They have so many health problems and so many die during whelping or as puppies that it's tantamount to animal abuse to keep breeding them.
I am an introvert and feel nervous about being asked by the dog for attention all of the time
Lots of dogs are also introverts. Mine is and hates being fussed over. The problem is she is not a good kids dog really due to that trait as she grows weary of them and hides in the closet.
Most working breeds like labs have pet and working "lines" that account for the drive and energy level differences you see. You do not want a working bred dog of any breed. A working lab will run over your baby and your grandma in a walker to fetch a tennis ball and need hours of exercise each day and a job. One from pet lines (or a failed service dog) will generally have much less to no retrieving drive and be more people focused. A lot of herding dogs are nippers by nature which can be problematic with kids, not your kids so much but visiting kids.
Dogs like border terriers, pet line Springer spaniels, pet line goldens etc are a great compromise on size, energy level and personality. A cross bred dog will get you improved health and will tamp down the purpose bred behaviors like herding kids, digging for vermin or running endlessly many breeds are known for.
Your husband will like whatever dog you get as long as it's well behaved. I know so many manly guys who kept the Chihuahua in the divorce it's not even funny.
posted by fshgrl at 1:51 PM on July 26, 2018 [17 favorites]
I am an introvert and feel nervous about being asked by the dog for attention all of the time
Lots of dogs are also introverts. Mine is and hates being fussed over. The problem is she is not a good kids dog really due to that trait as she grows weary of them and hides in the closet.
Most working breeds like labs have pet and working "lines" that account for the drive and energy level differences you see. You do not want a working bred dog of any breed. A working lab will run over your baby and your grandma in a walker to fetch a tennis ball and need hours of exercise each day and a job. One from pet lines (or a failed service dog) will generally have much less to no retrieving drive and be more people focused. A lot of herding dogs are nippers by nature which can be problematic with kids, not your kids so much but visiting kids.
Dogs like border terriers, pet line Springer spaniels, pet line goldens etc are a great compromise on size, energy level and personality. A cross bred dog will get you improved health and will tamp down the purpose bred behaviors like herding kids, digging for vermin or running endlessly many breeds are known for.
Your husband will like whatever dog you get as long as it's well behaved. I know so many manly guys who kept the Chihuahua in the divorce it's not even funny.
posted by fshgrl at 1:51 PM on July 26, 2018 [17 favorites]
I haven't been able to let this go, so I'm coming back to vote for the labrador/retriever, if you won't follow my advice about the labradoodle. ;-)
The problem with labradors/retrievers is that they are hunting dogs, so you can't ever trust them to not run off on a trail. But if you always have them on a leash or in a fenced dog park, that isn't really an issue. Otherwise they are great family dogs.
Again, labradors are working dogs, and they need vigorous training, but you already said you were ready for that. They are a lot safer with strangers than my various shepherds. That said, even the most aggressive guard-like dogs I've had have been successfully trained to care for all children.
posted by mumimor at 1:53 PM on July 26, 2018
The problem with labradors/retrievers is that they are hunting dogs, so you can't ever trust them to not run off on a trail. But if you always have them on a leash or in a fenced dog park, that isn't really an issue. Otherwise they are great family dogs.
Again, labradors are working dogs, and they need vigorous training, but you already said you were ready for that. They are a lot safer with strangers than my various shepherds. That said, even the most aggressive guard-like dogs I've had have been successfully trained to care for all children.
posted by mumimor at 1:53 PM on July 26, 2018
I actually do this (help people choose breeds and breeders) as part of my vet clinic job.
What you need is a calm breed with a medium amount of energy. You are likely to have the most success choosing a breed bred for the specific purpose of being a good pet (companion breeds which are generally found in the Toy and Non-Sporting groups in dog show talk) as opposed to a Herding, Working or Sporting/Hound or Terrier breed. There are many things you can change about a dog but you cannot change what it was bred to do, and you cannot change how much exercise it needs. I would stay away from most herding, working and sporting breeds, they in all likelihood have higher exercise and stimulation needs than you can reasonably and happily provide.
Tibetan Terrier (not a terrier despite the name, needs grooming, but they tend to make LOVELY family dogs, they are a good size with children because they're not so big they're going to knock a kid over, but big enough to be sturdy).
Coton de Tulear (also needs grooming, smaller than a Tibetan Terrier, also tend to have wonderful temperaments).
Tibetan Spaniel (small but big personalities, most have excellent temperaments)
Havanese (also needs grooming, usually have just lovely temperaments)
I would highly suggest going to a dog show and meeting some different breeds and talking to some breeders. Beware of anyone who doesn't tell you what you might NOT like about their breed of choice.
Also, a handy reference for managing kids and dogs safely: Better Never Bitten
posted by biscotti at 1:53 PM on July 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
What you need is a calm breed with a medium amount of energy. You are likely to have the most success choosing a breed bred for the specific purpose of being a good pet (companion breeds which are generally found in the Toy and Non-Sporting groups in dog show talk) as opposed to a Herding, Working or Sporting/Hound or Terrier breed. There are many things you can change about a dog but you cannot change what it was bred to do, and you cannot change how much exercise it needs. I would stay away from most herding, working and sporting breeds, they in all likelihood have higher exercise and stimulation needs than you can reasonably and happily provide.
Tibetan Terrier (not a terrier despite the name, needs grooming, but they tend to make LOVELY family dogs, they are a good size with children because they're not so big they're going to knock a kid over, but big enough to be sturdy).
Coton de Tulear (also needs grooming, smaller than a Tibetan Terrier, also tend to have wonderful temperaments).
Tibetan Spaniel (small but big personalities, most have excellent temperaments)
Havanese (also needs grooming, usually have just lovely temperaments)
I would highly suggest going to a dog show and meeting some different breeds and talking to some breeders. Beware of anyone who doesn't tell you what you might NOT like about their breed of choice.
Also, a handy reference for managing kids and dogs safely: Better Never Bitten
posted by biscotti at 1:53 PM on July 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
Many purebreds, including Cavalier King Charles spaniel, French Bulldog, Bernese Mountain dog, Pugs, some German Shepherds, many other breeds, have inbred health issues that can be expensive and heartbreaking. Dogs that are aggressively bred for a specific look are prone to this. Research breeds and talk to vets. Breeders will *swear* their dogs are fine; get it in writing.
I have a Jack Russell Terrier, adopted from a shelter at @ 1 year old, was a stray, likely pure bred. Cute, smart, a little obsessive, good dog for me, would need time to acclimate to small kids. My dog would be delighted for me to throw the ball for him 12 hours a day, but when I pick up a book or laptop, he knows the deal, and just curls up next to me. A smart dog with reasonable exercise is a great companion. The right terrier mix would likely do fine with your family.
Recommend: Poodles are smart, esp. medium to larger Poodles, don't shed, do well with people and kids. Golden Retrievers shed a ton, great dogs for families, smart, trainable. Irish setters are not so bright, beautiful, sweet-tempered. My best dog ever was likely a Collie-Golden Retriever mix, and my excellent dog in childhood was a Border Collie-mutt mix. Collies shed so much, but are smart, trainable dogs. I recommend visiting shelters. I'm in Maine where we don't have lots of stray dogs, they are gone from the shelter fast. Visit vets in your area, maybe post a notice; good dogs sometimes have to be re-homed.
posted by theora55 at 1:58 PM on July 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have a Jack Russell Terrier, adopted from a shelter at @ 1 year old, was a stray, likely pure bred. Cute, smart, a little obsessive, good dog for me, would need time to acclimate to small kids. My dog would be delighted for me to throw the ball for him 12 hours a day, but when I pick up a book or laptop, he knows the deal, and just curls up next to me. A smart dog with reasonable exercise is a great companion. The right terrier mix would likely do fine with your family.
Recommend: Poodles are smart, esp. medium to larger Poodles, don't shed, do well with people and kids. Golden Retrievers shed a ton, great dogs for families, smart, trainable. Irish setters are not so bright, beautiful, sweet-tempered. My best dog ever was likely a Collie-Golden Retriever mix, and my excellent dog in childhood was a Border Collie-mutt mix. Collies shed so much, but are smart, trainable dogs. I recommend visiting shelters. I'm in Maine where we don't have lots of stray dogs, they are gone from the shelter fast. Visit vets in your area, maybe post a notice; good dogs sometimes have to be re-homed.
posted by theora55 at 1:58 PM on July 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
The problem with labradors/retrievers is that they are hunting dogs, so you can't ever trust them to not run off on a trail.
This has not been my experience with labs and retrievers at all and I wonder if the poster is confusing them with pointers or flushing dogs. Labs and retreivers are very trainable and tend to stay very close to the person (with the tennis ball). They are not wanderers by nature lime pointers or huskies etc.
Speaking of which American Eskimo dogs are really fun family pets and good in the snow. Which is a consideration in Canada for sure. A lot of the recommended breeds like poodles often need to wear booties in the snow due to ice balls which is a pita if you have also to dress multiple kids to go outside. A proper double coated dog is a definite advantage in the snow.
posted by fshgrl at 1:58 PM on July 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
This has not been my experience with labs and retrievers at all and I wonder if the poster is confusing them with pointers or flushing dogs. Labs and retreivers are very trainable and tend to stay very close to the person (with the tennis ball). They are not wanderers by nature lime pointers or huskies etc.
Speaking of which American Eskimo dogs are really fun family pets and good in the snow. Which is a consideration in Canada for sure. A lot of the recommended breeds like poodles often need to wear booties in the snow due to ice balls which is a pita if you have also to dress multiple kids to go outside. A proper double coated dog is a definite advantage in the snow.
posted by fshgrl at 1:58 PM on July 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
Keeshonden are a bit more rare (though they're fairly popular in the region where I grew up, so you never know), but they're an almost perfect breed for the situation you're describing. They're smart, great temperament, great with kids, love cold weather, and don't need a ton of exercise.
We live in a fairly small apartment and have found that it's a breed that does well in small spaces (they were bred on fishing barges as part of their heritage) and after they're past the overactive puppy phase, one good walk a day is pretty much enough (and for some even less). They're also pretty independent, so they don't demand a ton of attention from you other than occasional checking in for petting, unless you make the mistake of ever eating anything, ever. Then they're right on top of you doing every trick they've ever learned and telegraphing how no really, they're starving to death. The only downside is they shed - we joke that the average lifespan for the breed is two vacuum cleaners.
posted by Mchelly at 2:04 PM on July 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
We live in a fairly small apartment and have found that it's a breed that does well in small spaces (they were bred on fishing barges as part of their heritage) and after they're past the overactive puppy phase, one good walk a day is pretty much enough (and for some even less). They're also pretty independent, so they don't demand a ton of attention from you other than occasional checking in for petting, unless you make the mistake of ever eating anything, ever. Then they're right on top of you doing every trick they've ever learned and telegraphing how no really, they're starving to death. The only downside is they shed - we joke that the average lifespan for the breed is two vacuum cleaners.
posted by Mchelly at 2:04 PM on July 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
I suggest...a mutt.
You sound really involved in pre-selecting a dog's, a puppy's!, personality based on breed and it doesn't work that way. I would figure out your ideal size range and look for a dog in that size range with the personality you desire. Puppies have sharp little teeth and will gnaw. puppies and rescues are both unpredictable. The only somewhat predictable dog is the dog that you know.
posted by WeekendJen at 2:05 PM on July 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
You sound really involved in pre-selecting a dog's, a puppy's!, personality based on breed and it doesn't work that way. I would figure out your ideal size range and look for a dog in that size range with the personality you desire. Puppies have sharp little teeth and will gnaw. puppies and rescues are both unpredictable. The only somewhat predictable dog is the dog that you know.
posted by WeekendJen at 2:05 PM on July 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
This has not been my experience with labs and retrievers at all and I wonder if the poster is confusing them with pointers or flushing dogs. Labs and retreivers are very trainable and tend to stay very close to the person (with the tennis ball). They are not wanderers by nature lime pointers or huskies etc.
Speaking of which American Eskimo dogs are really fun family pets and good in the snow. Which is a consideration in Canada for sure.
It's probably more that in our family labs and retrievers have always been working dogs.
I'm absolutely amazed at the idea that the various Inuit dog types could be suitable for families with long work hours. These dogs need a lot of exercise, and they are hard to train. My daughter's in-laws love them, have had them for generations, and admit they are almost untrainable. My aunt had one and gave up.
posted by mumimor at 2:07 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Speaking of which American Eskimo dogs are really fun family pets and good in the snow. Which is a consideration in Canada for sure.
It's probably more that in our family labs and retrievers have always been working dogs.
I'm absolutely amazed at the idea that the various Inuit dog types could be suitable for families with long work hours. These dogs need a lot of exercise, and they are hard to train. My daughter's in-laws love them, have had them for generations, and admit they are almost untrainable. My aunt had one and gave up.
posted by mumimor at 2:07 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
We've got 2 rescue dogs: a 1.5 year old male Akita and a 4 year old female Bassett / Shar-pei mix. She's far lower maintenance than our Akita and is perfect for a family; her personality is mostly Bassett, ie loves everyone, doesn't need much exercise, likes to cuddle on the couch, great with kids, etc but with the bonus of being very quiet and sort-of trainable. One of my favorite things about her is being able to walk her off leash where that's possible - bassetts are bred for pack hunting with other dogs and their people on foot, so she never strays too far away from me.
Our Akita on the other hand is paradoxically more trainable and eager to please around the house, but he wants to run around by himself outdoors and is terrible with off-leash recall. He'll always come home but I learned my lesson the one time he got out of his collar: he disappeared only to show up on our porch a few hours later covered in mud and looking terribly pleased with himself.
So many dogs will make excellent low energy family companions that it can be hard to judge by breed alone. I think a good idea instead of raising a puppy would be to rescue an adult or senior dog; you don't have to housetrain, their personality is fully developed, they're mellower, and it's just a lot easier overall to know in advance what you're signing up for.
posted by azuresunday at 2:12 PM on July 26, 2018
Our Akita on the other hand is paradoxically more trainable and eager to please around the house, but he wants to run around by himself outdoors and is terrible with off-leash recall. He'll always come home but I learned my lesson the one time he got out of his collar: he disappeared only to show up on our porch a few hours later covered in mud and looking terribly pleased with himself.
So many dogs will make excellent low energy family companions that it can be hard to judge by breed alone. I think a good idea instead of raising a puppy would be to rescue an adult or senior dog; you don't have to housetrain, their personality is fully developed, they're mellower, and it's just a lot easier overall to know in advance what you're signing up for.
posted by azuresunday at 2:12 PM on July 26, 2018
I've had loads of northern breed dogs and you can definitely train them. They're working bred. I have a former sled dog who is a voice trained lead dog and also scent trained to a pretty high level and who tracks both on and off leash. She's a pretty trainable dog. Doesn't always listen but easy to train. All of ours have been trustworthy off leash as far a hiking and that kind of thing. They do steal and wander so I don't take them to like festivals or leave them off leash at busy drive in campgrounds or anything but it's a management issue, not a dog issue. They just have different motivations from most dogs.
You do have it make sure to socialize all northern breed dogs with other dogs, kids and cats at a young age though.
Lapponian herding dogs are also a great compromise. We've had two crosses and known a couple pure breds. Rare breed though and does need exercise.
posted by fshgrl at 2:18 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
You do have it make sure to socialize all northern breed dogs with other dogs, kids and cats at a young age though.
Lapponian herding dogs are also a great compromise. We've had two crosses and known a couple pure breds. Rare breed though and does need exercise.
posted by fshgrl at 2:18 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
The nice thing about labs for exercise is that they tend to (3/4 labs that I know) intuitively understand playing fetch. Maybe long walks are out, but what about playing with a ball and running the dog tired in the backyard for 20 minutes after work, with a glowball and the porchlights on if necessary? That may be the "companionship" your husband is imagining.
posted by aimedwander at 2:25 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by aimedwander at 2:25 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's been said a bunch already, but do think about adopting an adult dog, especially from a smaller rescue who fosters out their dogs. All the dogs with bite problems I've known have been purebreds and raised by the families from puppies, including the golden from whom I still bear scars and who was eventually put down for aggression problems (he bit another child). My rescue German Shepherd/Staffy mix is a 70 lb handful of terror inducing dog (she's built like a tank with a bark to match), but she's decent with adults and THE BEST with kids. (My 8 month old nephew just visited -- he got licked in the face a couple of times, but that was as bad as it got.)
The best thing you can do with any dog, puppy or adult, is train it and train your family. It's good that you're ready to dedicate a ton of time to this already. We have put at least as much effort into training our rescue as we would have put into a puppy, and you can really see a difference. You can give them a "place" command when you don't want them in your face ("go to bed" was invaluable with my nephew here). Work on mat training to reward calm behavior. While you can't train away their energy levels, you can reward calm behavior. Teach your kids (and their friends) to respect the dog and her personal space. Learn about body language and calming signals so you can tell when she's stressed. Ignore undesirable behavior instead of punishing it with yelling and pushing away (that's just a fun game for a dog). You can train your dog to respect your personal space, and you'll likely get more reliable results that way than trying to select for it with breeding.
posted by natabat at 2:25 PM on July 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
The best thing you can do with any dog, puppy or adult, is train it and train your family. It's good that you're ready to dedicate a ton of time to this already. We have put at least as much effort into training our rescue as we would have put into a puppy, and you can really see a difference. You can give them a "place" command when you don't want them in your face ("go to bed" was invaluable with my nephew here). Work on mat training to reward calm behavior. While you can't train away their energy levels, you can reward calm behavior. Teach your kids (and their friends) to respect the dog and her personal space. Learn about body language and calming signals so you can tell when she's stressed. Ignore undesirable behavior instead of punishing it with yelling and pushing away (that's just a fun game for a dog). You can train your dog to respect your personal space, and you'll likely get more reliable results that way than trying to select for it with breeding.
posted by natabat at 2:25 PM on July 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Your laundry list of requirements, your list of things you don't want combined with your overall knowledge of dog breeds indicates you don't want a dog, you want a cat (if that).
You say you understand the work involved training a puppy, but you also say I also get, I think, more than normally irritated when there are too many things requiring my immediate attention at once (baby crying, husband and daughter talking to me at the same time while trying to follow a recipe, for example).
Okay. Imagine all of those things and a puppy is eating your shoe and barking and growling and nipping and jumping on the baby at the same time. Then it pees and poops on the floor and tries to eat a baby toy.
A puppy is going to demand your attention. It will be destructive at times. It will be noisy and nippy and get underfoot and it will destroy things. It will need early walks and multiple walks as it gets trained and you note you won't be able to do those things and will have a walker come over.
In the situation as you've described it, nothing indicates you should get a dog. You can't provide it with the exercise it needs, you will get irritated when it acts like a puppy, you're insistent upon a purebred but you have a lot of misinformation about certain breeds.
I get that you have the time to train a puppy now, but I don't think you have the lifestyle. Wait a few years and consider it again.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:28 PM on July 26, 2018 [20 favorites]
You say you understand the work involved training a puppy, but you also say I also get, I think, more than normally irritated when there are too many things requiring my immediate attention at once (baby crying, husband and daughter talking to me at the same time while trying to follow a recipe, for example).
Okay. Imagine all of those things and a puppy is eating your shoe and barking and growling and nipping and jumping on the baby at the same time. Then it pees and poops on the floor and tries to eat a baby toy.
A puppy is going to demand your attention. It will be destructive at times. It will be noisy and nippy and get underfoot and it will destroy things. It will need early walks and multiple walks as it gets trained and you note you won't be able to do those things and will have a walker come over.
In the situation as you've described it, nothing indicates you should get a dog. You can't provide it with the exercise it needs, you will get irritated when it acts like a puppy, you're insistent upon a purebred but you have a lot of misinformation about certain breeds.
I get that you have the time to train a puppy now, but I don't think you have the lifestyle. Wait a few years and consider it again.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 2:28 PM on July 26, 2018 [20 favorites]
I agree with the others that say wait, get a foster, or a cat. Totally.
But in the spirit of giving info you did ask for: a breed that I think could work well for you is Japanese Chin. Like cavaliers they have low exercise requirements and are bred to be calm loving companions. They will be good with kids and never yappy twits like so many terriers. But unlike Cavaliers, they are an ancient breed without too many congenital problems to watch out for.
posted by SaltySalticid at 2:39 PM on July 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
But in the spirit of giving info you did ask for: a breed that I think could work well for you is Japanese Chin. Like cavaliers they have low exercise requirements and are bred to be calm loving companions. They will be good with kids and never yappy twits like so many terriers. But unlike Cavaliers, they are an ancient breed without too many congenital problems to watch out for.
posted by SaltySalticid at 2:39 PM on July 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
First off, good job for putting this much thought into the whole dog thing. Secondly, as a dog owner for most of my adult life, may I suggest this book. My first dog as an adult was a beagle, and I'll be completely honest in that I did not do right by him. I didn't know about socialization and I honestly thought the biggest drama was teaching a dog to pee and poo outside. He was needy, stubborn, and kind of an ass. Gentle with kids but far too fearful to trust.
I then got to live with my husband's dog, who raised her to be a loner because he didn't know about socialization either. She was a border collie, German shepherd, pit mix and was less needy and much more reliable around people. Unfortunately, she had very little tolerance for other dogs, so any exercising that wasn't on a leash was always a bit terrifying. As she aged, she was pretty chill but, as a puppy, she actually chewed through a wall at one point.
I was pretty adament that our next dog wouldn't be a hound, because my beagle was such an asshole and stubborn. And we didn't want another dog that was dog aggressive because it's such a hard life for them. Despite the hound aversion, this coonhound/lab mix charmed the shit out of us at the rescue. She was a little hyper as a puppy; we got her at three months old. But within the year, she was down to only three walks a day and could be left alone in the house while we were at work. I credit the book with helping me learn how to raise a dog that is secure, socialized, and affectionate. She's chill around babies and kids, no drama with other dogs, and with the exception of her predilection for squirrels, not a horrible walker. Part of it is her personality and the other part is the work we put in to make sure she didn't get scared in the fearful months and that she got exposed to a ton of stuff.
For our next dog, I'd definitely give another coonhound a solid look. They can be so very lazy for so much of the time and then run like a crazy beast when given a chance.
posted by teleri025 at 2:56 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I then got to live with my husband's dog, who raised her to be a loner because he didn't know about socialization either. She was a border collie, German shepherd, pit mix and was less needy and much more reliable around people. Unfortunately, she had very little tolerance for other dogs, so any exercising that wasn't on a leash was always a bit terrifying. As she aged, she was pretty chill but, as a puppy, she actually chewed through a wall at one point.
I was pretty adament that our next dog wouldn't be a hound, because my beagle was such an asshole and stubborn. And we didn't want another dog that was dog aggressive because it's such a hard life for them. Despite the hound aversion, this coonhound/lab mix charmed the shit out of us at the rescue. She was a little hyper as a puppy; we got her at three months old. But within the year, she was down to only three walks a day and could be left alone in the house while we were at work. I credit the book with helping me learn how to raise a dog that is secure, socialized, and affectionate. She's chill around babies and kids, no drama with other dogs, and with the exception of her predilection for squirrels, not a horrible walker. Part of it is her personality and the other part is the work we put in to make sure she didn't get scared in the fearful months and that she got exposed to a ton of stuff.
For our next dog, I'd definitely give another coonhound a solid look. They can be so very lazy for so much of the time and then run like a crazy beast when given a chance.
posted by teleri025 at 2:56 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I may need another question to ask this, but I'll try: for those who say to get a foster - I'm listening and quite a few people I've talked to have suggested to same, but, big but, how can you be sure the dog won't bite? That's not a chance I can take with kids. I realize I can't ensure that a puppy I've trained will grow up to never bite, but a dog I've trained is a dog I can read, just like I can read my child, my husband, my baby. Through lots and lots of exposure and experience and observation. With a foster, I may not have this until its too late and that is not ok. So I can't wrap my head around fostering, but I'm trying to.
posted by kitcat at 3:00 PM on July 26, 2018
posted by kitcat at 3:00 PM on July 26, 2018
I have had three shih tzus and they all had different termperments. But they’re good lap dogs that had small bursts of energy (good for playing) but didn’t need long walks. The main reason I get them though is the lack of shedding (I keep them clipped but even with long hair, virtually no shedding). The one that was the mellowist was the intact male, which I seem to recall reading that neutered males tend to be very calm.
My next dog is probably going to be a Newf though. They do shed (and drool), but every single one that I have met has been a lazy lap dog that is fiercely loyal to its family. They have been bred specifically for a “sweet temperament”. Like the Lab, they are also Canadian.
posted by saucysault at 3:12 PM on July 26, 2018
My next dog is probably going to be a Newf though. They do shed (and drool), but every single one that I have met has been a lazy lap dog that is fiercely loyal to its family. They have been bred specifically for a “sweet temperament”. Like the Lab, they are also Canadian.
posted by saucysault at 3:12 PM on July 26, 2018
how can you be sure the dog won't bite? That's not a chance I can take with kids.
You really, really should NOT get a dog because you can never say with certainty that a dog will never bite, ever, especially with little kids. Some dogs may be less likely to bite, but you can never with 100% say that a dog will never bite.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:15 PM on July 26, 2018 [16 favorites]
You really, really should NOT get a dog because you can never say with certainty that a dog will never bite, ever, especially with little kids. Some dogs may be less likely to bite, but you can never with 100% say that a dog will never bite.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:15 PM on July 26, 2018 [16 favorites]
You can't. So fostering with kids is a but of a crapshoot and most rescues will NOT let an inexperienced parent foster a dog that is an unknown quantity. They will first do a test with an experienced family. Any rescue that lets a non dog person foster a dog they don't have really good info on is not a foster you should work with (ie a lot of them). I think you are getting a lot of poorly thought out responses here on that front.
Having said that any dog can bite. You minimize the chances by picking breeds that have what is called a "high bite inhibition". Hounds generally have the highest bite inhibition, followed by bird dogs, and the scale runs all the way down to dogs like malamutes and shepards with naturally lower bite inhibition and pits and malinois that in many cases have been bred to have a low or non existent bite inhibition. Don't get those breeds around kids, just don't.
There are exceptions, I have a husky with very high bite inhibition. She will not bite even if another dog bites her first. She is kind of a freak that way though. And she is a growler, just not a biter.
Herding dogs often nip, which is different than biting from the dogs point of view and the term bite inhibition isn't super reliable for those breeds. We grew up with herding dogs and they nipped us a lot which is not damaging but but you'll still get sued over it if they do it to someone's kid. That's why cattle dogs etc aren't recommended as pets.
You can also minimize the risk of injury by having a small dog. Many toy breed bite a lot but hurt no one.
posted by fshgrl at 3:18 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Having said that any dog can bite. You minimize the chances by picking breeds that have what is called a "high bite inhibition". Hounds generally have the highest bite inhibition, followed by bird dogs, and the scale runs all the way down to dogs like malamutes and shepards with naturally lower bite inhibition and pits and malinois that in many cases have been bred to have a low or non existent bite inhibition. Don't get those breeds around kids, just don't.
There are exceptions, I have a husky with very high bite inhibition. She will not bite even if another dog bites her first. She is kind of a freak that way though. And she is a growler, just not a biter.
Herding dogs often nip, which is different than biting from the dogs point of view and the term bite inhibition isn't super reliable for those breeds. We grew up with herding dogs and they nipped us a lot which is not damaging but but you'll still get sued over it if they do it to someone's kid. That's why cattle dogs etc aren't recommended as pets.
You can also minimize the risk of injury by having a small dog. Many toy breed bite a lot but hurt no one.
posted by fshgrl at 3:18 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
but, big but, how can you be sure the dog won't bite? That's not a chance I can take with kids.
You cannot ever be sure that a dog will not bite. Whether the dog is a rescue or one you've raised from eight weeks doesn't matter. 100% of dogs will bite if given sufficient stimulus.
Flipside, though: most dog bites are emphatically not a big deal. One or two very minor puncture wounds that require a single bandaid, maybe plus some antibiotics to be safe.
You minimize the chances by picking breeds that have what is called a "high bite inhibition".
Not with kids. You minimize the odds of a dog biting a child by denying the child physical access to the dog without your direct supervisions until well into adolescence.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:28 PM on July 26, 2018 [15 favorites]
You cannot ever be sure that a dog will not bite. Whether the dog is a rescue or one you've raised from eight weeks doesn't matter. 100% of dogs will bite if given sufficient stimulus.
Flipside, though: most dog bites are emphatically not a big deal. One or two very minor puncture wounds that require a single bandaid, maybe plus some antibiotics to be safe.
You minimize the chances by picking breeds that have what is called a "high bite inhibition".
Not with kids. You minimize the odds of a dog biting a child by denying the child physical access to the dog without your direct supervisions until well into adolescence.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:28 PM on July 26, 2018 [15 favorites]
one more dog into the mix: I read your list of requirements and think of a golden doodle!
posted by unexpected at 3:36 PM on July 26, 2018
posted by unexpected at 3:36 PM on July 26, 2018
Keeshonden are a bit more rare (though they're fairly popular in the region where I grew up, so you never know), but they're an almost perfect breed for the situation you're describing. They're smart, great temperament, great with kids, love cold weather, and don't need a ton of exercise
Oh my noooo no nono. This breed was specifically bred to bark. They bark. They can not be trained to not bark. Barkbarkbarkbark. I have a good friend that has always had one or two and THE BARKING. Expensive dog trainers have stood there looking at their dogs and just told them straight up it's not going to ever stop.
There's also a lot of recommendations for breeds with horrifying health problems built into them popping up here that I find baffling. A family member was spending $500 a month on medications for one of those breeds. It still died. Bred by two vets who were trying to breed out the health issues and honestly from what we learned during that nightmare they were mostly successful.
If you insist on a purebred puppy, be sure to meet BOTH parents, and have extensive knowledge about any health problems in their lines. The quality breeders have waiting lists for puppies. You will not be getting a puppy soon unless you are getting a very poorly vetted one, and in that case you might as well get one from the pound.
A friend was on a wait list for 2 years, and their dog is twice the size of its parents (and an untrainable bonehead). There are zero guarantees. Just like human babies.
I have 4 friends who trained a puppy the year before they had a baby, and all 4 have said the puppy was more work. You have a lot of optimism combined with your pessimism.
posted by Dynex at 3:39 PM on July 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oh my noooo no nono. This breed was specifically bred to bark. They bark. They can not be trained to not bark. Barkbarkbarkbark. I have a good friend that has always had one or two and THE BARKING. Expensive dog trainers have stood there looking at their dogs and just told them straight up it's not going to ever stop.
There's also a lot of recommendations for breeds with horrifying health problems built into them popping up here that I find baffling. A family member was spending $500 a month on medications for one of those breeds. It still died. Bred by two vets who were trying to breed out the health issues and honestly from what we learned during that nightmare they were mostly successful.
If you insist on a purebred puppy, be sure to meet BOTH parents, and have extensive knowledge about any health problems in their lines. The quality breeders have waiting lists for puppies. You will not be getting a puppy soon unless you are getting a very poorly vetted one, and in that case you might as well get one from the pound.
A friend was on a wait list for 2 years, and their dog is twice the size of its parents (and an untrainable bonehead). There are zero guarantees. Just like human babies.
I have 4 friends who trained a puppy the year before they had a baby, and all 4 have said the puppy was more work. You have a lot of optimism combined with your pessimism.
posted by Dynex at 3:39 PM on July 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
I am on my third keeshond and this is... not my experience. But I do think it's a good point -- even though many purebreds are dogs that are bred for certain traits, there's no guarantee that any individual dog will automatically have those tendencies.
posted by Mchelly at 3:47 PM on July 26, 2018
posted by Mchelly at 3:47 PM on July 26, 2018
The people working to adopt out dogs are VETTING THE DOGS FOR YOU.
Eh. Kinda. Some do and some don't. I've fostered a lot of dogs for a lot of places. It's all volunteer, a lot of the people involved are kinda animal hoarders and the quality of the vetting is variable. Bring an experienced dog friend along and try to see the dog in a situation similar to the one you want it to function in (kids, other dogs, leash walking etc)
posted by fshgrl at 3:51 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Eh. Kinda. Some do and some don't. I've fostered a lot of dogs for a lot of places. It's all volunteer, a lot of the people involved are kinda animal hoarders and the quality of the vetting is variable. Bring an experienced dog friend along and try to see the dog in a situation similar to the one you want it to function in (kids, other dogs, leash walking etc)
posted by fshgrl at 3:51 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's been said, but I will add my view - breed does not make promises. For our first dog (both of us complete newbies), we went with a lab. We did go with a purebred and for us the big factor was going out and spending time with all the pups. We'd pick them up and see which snuggled and which squirmed. In the end, we picked the pup who was snugglyist. Overall, she can run when at the park or playing catch, but is also content curling up beside us at night.
Second dog is a rescue, lab/rotti mix. She was about 6 months when we got her, so the foster was able to give us a lot of info on personality, but was certainly still young enough to bond to us and take training the way we wanted to do it. She is higher energy and will go longer than our straight lab, but can also be less needy. Our lab follows us between room. Our mix will often go off to find a quiet spot to sleep.
Biggest recommendation is to work with a breeder or rescue that let's you spend time with the pup in advance of a decision.
posted by MandaSayGrr at 4:15 PM on July 26, 2018
Second dog is a rescue, lab/rotti mix. She was about 6 months when we got her, so the foster was able to give us a lot of info on personality, but was certainly still young enough to bond to us and take training the way we wanted to do it. She is higher energy and will go longer than our straight lab, but can also be less needy. Our lab follows us between room. Our mix will often go off to find a quiet spot to sleep.
Biggest recommendation is to work with a breeder or rescue that let's you spend time with the pup in advance of a decision.
posted by MandaSayGrr at 4:15 PM on July 26, 2018
Natabat wrote that you should teach your children to respect the dog's space. Of course. But, at the same time, you'll soon have a toddler. If you choose to get a puppy instead of an older already-socialized adult, you should do some simple non-aggression training with the puppy while she still has her milk teeth. That involves intentionally dis-respecting her space, at random intervals, by suddenly taking away a toy she's playing with or food she's eating. Better yet, have a child do it (of course, explain it's not to be mean but to help to socialize the puppy). At first, the puppy will be very agitated and upset. But if you tell her, calmly, that you'll return the toy/food as soon as she's calm for even a moment—and then do so—the puppy will quickly learn to be tolerant and non-possessive, even if a small child snatches her toy or gets between her and her food. (Stage 2 is to train the small child not to!). I often had rugrats around when I had my two dogs, and I was really determined to ensure that they were safe with kids. And neither of them ever so much as growled* or nipped at anybody in their lives.
* With one very notable exception. One day I heard my dachshund** make this low, menacing growling sound I had never heard her make before. And she was behaving very bizarrely—pacing by the front door, sniffing under the jamb. Normally, if if there was a visitor at the door, she would be out of her mind barking in excitement. But nobody had rung the door bell or knocked, and I didn't hear a sound. All I could think was that there might be a squirrel on the porch, so I went and looked out the window by the door. And found myself face to face (with glass between us) with a burglar. He was in the process of trying to sneak off with the lawnmower I had stored on the porch. He left without it.
What amazed me was that my pup somehow 'knew' that this 'visitor'—unlike all the others—was not a friendly visitor, because I swear, if I'd opened that door, she'd have chewed that thief's feet off at the ankles.
** BTW: long-haired dachshunds are lovely dogs.
posted by Transl3y at 4:17 PM on July 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
* With one very notable exception. One day I heard my dachshund** make this low, menacing growling sound I had never heard her make before. And she was behaving very bizarrely—pacing by the front door, sniffing under the jamb. Normally, if if there was a visitor at the door, she would be out of her mind barking in excitement. But nobody had rung the door bell or knocked, and I didn't hear a sound. All I could think was that there might be a squirrel on the porch, so I went and looked out the window by the door. And found myself face to face (with glass between us) with a burglar. He was in the process of trying to sneak off with the lawnmower I had stored on the porch. He left without it.
What amazed me was that my pup somehow 'knew' that this 'visitor'—unlike all the others—was not a friendly visitor, because I swear, if I'd opened that door, she'd have chewed that thief's feet off at the ankles.
** BTW: long-haired dachshunds are lovely dogs.
posted by Transl3y at 4:17 PM on July 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Just wanted to reassure you that you can play catch/frisbee in winter months. It gets light at 10:30 and dark at 3:30 here in the worst months, so we do this with our dog with a really bright led collar and good headlamps (he’s too fussy for a light up ball, the jerk) but you could definitely see what you could do in terms of lighting the backyard. If you have snow that sticks it’s surprising how much light reflects off.
We have to do regular snowshoe laps in our underused neighborhood park to pack the field down enough to make sure we aren’t losing balls/frisbees in it all the time (this would be an EXCELLENT job for your 8 yo).
posted by charmedimsure at 4:22 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
We have to do regular snowshoe laps in our underused neighborhood park to pack the field down enough to make sure we aren’t losing balls/frisbees in it all the time (this would be an EXCELLENT job for your 8 yo).
posted by charmedimsure at 4:22 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I got my first dog as an adult with the help of Metafilter, and in the years I've had her I've been volunteering as well at a local dog rescue. After what I've seen, I would always get a mutt, not a breed. There are too many bad breeders and even with the good breeders, the popular breeds have often been distorted by the breeding to the point where they are actually unhealthy (I could never get behind a pug or a bulldog which wasn't a rescue, for that reason).
I love my RottieX mutt. She has a very high bite inhibition and is completely unfazed by kids. I often feel bad I can't offer her a home with children because she loves them so much. But I'd say get a mutt puppy from the pound.
One thing I have to say is you must realise now that any dog can bite, and you will really need to set rules and guidelines with both the child and the dog and realise that if the child breaks them, they might get bitten. I grew up with dogs and had pretty strict rules about how to interact-- no surprising the dog, no bothering the dog when it's eating, no stealing the dog's toys. If I got nipped (and I did, a time or two) my mother's first question was usually "what did you do?" -- and it was generally well deserved. One of the saddest things I've seen at the shelter was good dogs dumped for biting a child (generally not seriously) when it was 100% the adult's fault for the situation and completely provoked.
posted by frumiousb at 5:29 PM on July 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
I love my RottieX mutt. She has a very high bite inhibition and is completely unfazed by kids. I often feel bad I can't offer her a home with children because she loves them so much. But I'd say get a mutt puppy from the pound.
One thing I have to say is you must realise now that any dog can bite, and you will really need to set rules and guidelines with both the child and the dog and realise that if the child breaks them, they might get bitten. I grew up with dogs and had pretty strict rules about how to interact-- no surprising the dog, no bothering the dog when it's eating, no stealing the dog's toys. If I got nipped (and I did, a time or two) my mother's first question was usually "what did you do?" -- and it was generally well deserved. One of the saddest things I've seen at the shelter was good dogs dumped for biting a child (generally not seriously) when it was 100% the adult's fault for the situation and completely provoked.
posted by frumiousb at 5:29 PM on July 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
By far the best dogs I have ever had started as mutt puppies from the pound. When my kids were about the age of yours we got a shepherd mix puppy from an animal shelter in Baltimore county and he was the best dog ever. I would just start haunting the local animal shelters and pounds until you find a puppy you like. A mixed breed is often going to be smarter, sweeter and healthier than a purebred.
posted by mygothlaundry at 6:05 PM on July 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by mygothlaundry at 6:05 PM on July 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've always found golden retrievers to be more laid back than labs, but every dog is different. Is your yard fenced in? If so, throwing the ball is a good way to tire out a lab or golden retriever.
With the caveat (as already explained multiple times in this thread) that there is a lot of individual variance, will nth that I think basset hounds are a great family dog. We had a basset when I was a kid, and seriously, this dog was the sweetest, most loving, easygoing dog you could ask for. Truly incapable of biting anyone (dog or human). Even when another dog bit him, he didn't bite back. He really was the best dog. We got him as a puppy, and he was definitely an easy puppy, as well. The only thing was that we learned never to keep food in his reach, because he would still it in an instant.
However, we ultimately had to put him down because of intervertebral disc disease, which is a known problem for the breed (and other breeds as well). Even before we put him down, when we were still trying to manage the condition, it was awful having to keep him in isolated in a crate so he could heal. That experience alone would make me hesitant to get another purebred basset, and in general a lot of purebreds are prone to certain health conditions, but I would seriously consider adopting a basset mix.
I've also heard great things about Havanese and Coton du Tulears as a breed that is very family friendly and all that good stuff.
With that being said, some of the sweetest, most loving dogs I've met have been pit bulls. When i was little, a family friend had a pit bull, and it was great with me. But it sounds like that's not something you're open to, which is fine. My main point is to nth that every dog is an individual, and ultimately, breed characteristics only tell you so much.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:43 PM on July 26, 2018
With the caveat (as already explained multiple times in this thread) that there is a lot of individual variance, will nth that I think basset hounds are a great family dog. We had a basset when I was a kid, and seriously, this dog was the sweetest, most loving, easygoing dog you could ask for. Truly incapable of biting anyone (dog or human). Even when another dog bit him, he didn't bite back. He really was the best dog. We got him as a puppy, and he was definitely an easy puppy, as well. The only thing was that we learned never to keep food in his reach, because he would still it in an instant.
However, we ultimately had to put him down because of intervertebral disc disease, which is a known problem for the breed (and other breeds as well). Even before we put him down, when we were still trying to manage the condition, it was awful having to keep him in isolated in a crate so he could heal. That experience alone would make me hesitant to get another purebred basset, and in general a lot of purebreds are prone to certain health conditions, but I would seriously consider adopting a basset mix.
I've also heard great things about Havanese and Coton du Tulears as a breed that is very family friendly and all that good stuff.
With that being said, some of the sweetest, most loving dogs I've met have been pit bulls. When i was little, a family friend had a pit bull, and it was great with me. But it sounds like that's not something you're open to, which is fine. My main point is to nth that every dog is an individual, and ultimately, breed characteristics only tell you so much.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:43 PM on July 26, 2018
I may need another question to ask this, but I'll try: for those who say to get a foster - I'm listening and quite a few people I've talked to have suggested to same, but, big but, how can you be sure the dog won't bite?
As someone who recommended fostering... Like everyone has chimed in, this is something you can't guarantee with any dog. Don't waltz into any shelter and expect them to know their dogs. When you go to the shelter, ask them how they've worked with the dogs to figure out their temperament and what training the dog already has. For example, the shelter I volunteer at introduces all new dogs to dog-tolerant kitties to figure out if they can have cat friends or any prey drive. Dogs that are naturally mouthy or jumpy or fearful when they come to the shelter will get a no small children designation. If any resource guarding is noticed, the dog also will get a no small children designation.
The shelter also has part time dog behavior professionals come in to screen all new dogs. They recently put a golden retriever mix down because she had a massive no touch zone that would make it too dangerous to place with anyone. A good shelter tries their hardest to make sure that not only will the dog be happy but also that the people are a good match.
On top of that, there's a private Facebook group where volunteers can post about their interactions with dogs, good or otherwise. Volunteers can ask others if they've also seen a potentially problematic behavior, and if someone else chimes in, the dog is seen by a professional trainer as soon as possible. Volunteers can also let everyone know the progress a dog is making on desirable behaviors like loose leash walking, come when called, or learning to chill. AS volunteers, we are required to do at least quarterly trainings on various topics about dog behavior and dog training.
And this is in stark contrast to a different shelter where I volunteered in the past that went, here's how to break up dog fights if it occurs. Here's a leash. Good luck.
As for the best way to minimize the risk of your children getting bitten, here's one resource that's a good starting point.
posted by astapasta24 at 7:11 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
As someone who recommended fostering... Like everyone has chimed in, this is something you can't guarantee with any dog. Don't waltz into any shelter and expect them to know their dogs. When you go to the shelter, ask them how they've worked with the dogs to figure out their temperament and what training the dog already has. For example, the shelter I volunteer at introduces all new dogs to dog-tolerant kitties to figure out if they can have cat friends or any prey drive. Dogs that are naturally mouthy or jumpy or fearful when they come to the shelter will get a no small children designation. If any resource guarding is noticed, the dog also will get a no small children designation.
The shelter also has part time dog behavior professionals come in to screen all new dogs. They recently put a golden retriever mix down because she had a massive no touch zone that would make it too dangerous to place with anyone. A good shelter tries their hardest to make sure that not only will the dog be happy but also that the people are a good match.
On top of that, there's a private Facebook group where volunteers can post about their interactions with dogs, good or otherwise. Volunteers can ask others if they've also seen a potentially problematic behavior, and if someone else chimes in, the dog is seen by a professional trainer as soon as possible. Volunteers can also let everyone know the progress a dog is making on desirable behaviors like loose leash walking, come when called, or learning to chill. AS volunteers, we are required to do at least quarterly trainings on various topics about dog behavior and dog training.
And this is in stark contrast to a different shelter where I volunteered in the past that went, here's how to break up dog fights if it occurs. Here's a leash. Good luck.
As for the best way to minimize the risk of your children getting bitten, here's one resource that's a good starting point.
posted by astapasta24 at 7:11 PM on July 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
You sound really involved in pre-selecting a dog's, a puppy's!, personality based on breed and it doesn't work that way.
It actually really, really DOES work that way. That's the entire point of choosing a purebred dog. Sure, there are individual variations, but a well-bred purebred dog should be reasonably predictable in terms of size, coat/grooming needs, temperament, proclivities and energy level, and an ethical breeder will find you the puppy in a litter that best fits your needs. Plus an ethical breeder will be breeding for health and stable temperament. That's pretty much exactly what buying a responsibly-bred purebred dog is all about. And if the dog doesn't end up the way it should, an ethical breeder will be there to help (or they will have talked you out of their breed or their specific lines in the first place, because they know their dogs aren't going to suit you).
And any health issues which exist in dogs exist in ALL dogs, not just purebreds (mutts are mixed BREED dogs), and in fact you may be more likely to find problems in mixed breed dogs, since they are unlikely to be products of well-bred, health tested parents.
Any mixed breed dog (and that includes any "designer" mix like the five billion Poodle mixes you can find these days) is going to be far less predictable in terms of ANYTHING than a well-bred purebred is. Plus it is unlikely to have been carefully raised to have the best possible start in life.
Rescues can be great, they can also be nightmares (since MANY dogs end up in a rescue for a reason, and many rescues flat out lie about how and why they have a given dog), there are ethical and unethical rescues just like there are ethical and unethical breeders. And very few rescue organizations are going to help you out if things go south, unlike an ethical breeder.
posted by biscotti at 12:26 PM on July 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
It actually really, really DOES work that way. That's the entire point of choosing a purebred dog. Sure, there are individual variations, but a well-bred purebred dog should be reasonably predictable in terms of size, coat/grooming needs, temperament, proclivities and energy level, and an ethical breeder will find you the puppy in a litter that best fits your needs. Plus an ethical breeder will be breeding for health and stable temperament. That's pretty much exactly what buying a responsibly-bred purebred dog is all about. And if the dog doesn't end up the way it should, an ethical breeder will be there to help (or they will have talked you out of their breed or their specific lines in the first place, because they know their dogs aren't going to suit you).
And any health issues which exist in dogs exist in ALL dogs, not just purebreds (mutts are mixed BREED dogs), and in fact you may be more likely to find problems in mixed breed dogs, since they are unlikely to be products of well-bred, health tested parents.
Any mixed breed dog (and that includes any "designer" mix like the five billion Poodle mixes you can find these days) is going to be far less predictable in terms of ANYTHING than a well-bred purebred is. Plus it is unlikely to have been carefully raised to have the best possible start in life.
Rescues can be great, they can also be nightmares (since MANY dogs end up in a rescue for a reason, and many rescues flat out lie about how and why they have a given dog), there are ethical and unethical rescues just like there are ethical and unethical breeders. And very few rescue organizations are going to help you out if things go south, unlike an ethical breeder.
posted by biscotti at 12:26 PM on July 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
The negative on getting a puppy is that you don't know what has happened in the socialization window (up to 12 weeks-ish), when they are learning all about the world/strangers, etc. That period of time has a really big impact on the dog, and you might not see the impact of the socialization period until the dog older.
I got my little dude as a rescue, at about 16 weeks old (4 months-ish), and while he seemed very chill, I didn't know enough about his socialization needs as a new dog owner AND, I didn't know what he was exposed to previously.
Because I didn't put enough novel events/strangers in his life from a young age, he is now very skittery and fear aggressive/reactive around new people "that might kidnap him!!!1!!".
So, I'd suggest getting a full grown dog , that has been in care for a period of time - that way, you'll know exactly what kind of temperament/experience you are signing up for. Puppies are cute, but their personalities are still an unknown, as is their past experiences. Adult dogs are fully developed in their personality and quirks.
If you want to go the puppy route, do your reading/get a good trainer, and make sure your socialization game is on point.
posted by NorthernAutumn at 3:05 PM on July 27, 2018
I got my little dude as a rescue, at about 16 weeks old (4 months-ish), and while he seemed very chill, I didn't know enough about his socialization needs as a new dog owner AND, I didn't know what he was exposed to previously.
Because I didn't put enough novel events/strangers in his life from a young age, he is now very skittery and fear aggressive/reactive around new people "that might kidnap him!!!1!!".
So, I'd suggest getting a full grown dog , that has been in care for a period of time - that way, you'll know exactly what kind of temperament/experience you are signing up for. Puppies are cute, but their personalities are still an unknown, as is their past experiences. Adult dogs are fully developed in their personality and quirks.
If you want to go the puppy route, do your reading/get a good trainer, and make sure your socialization game is on point.
posted by NorthernAutumn at 3:05 PM on July 27, 2018
Training a puppy can be great. You can also train fear, nervousness, and biting *into* a dog if you don’t know the hows and whys of it, so that may be something to take into consideration.
Senior dogs are another option as well. History can be well known, low energy, often a relaxed ‘starter’ dog.
posted by MountainDaisy at 5:24 PM on July 27, 2018
Senior dogs are another option as well. History can be well known, low energy, often a relaxed ‘starter’ dog.
posted by MountainDaisy at 5:24 PM on July 27, 2018
I don't know what's the right dog for you. I will tell you why we got the right dog for us: a Boston Terrier.
I was a previous non-dog owner, my husband's family bred a rare breed dog for a number of years. He insisted in a purebred dog, so I deferred to him. Our lifestyle is such that a big dog didn't make much sense - we don't have much of a yard and while we could take time to exercise a dog on walks or at the beach we also knew we wouldn't be running with one or going hiking for miles. We also wanted one that was easy to care for coat-wise - something we could hose off and get all the sand off after being at the beach, and that didn't have a lot of fur. We wanted something "big enough to go everywhere but small enough to go everywhere" so something 20-40 pounds. And we wanted a dog that could be left alone without losing their mind but also that would generally be a companion animal. We had a number of possible breeds but ended up deciding the Boston would be the right one for us.
We've had our dog for 2 years now and we love him and love the breed. Each individual dog is different and as we had a choice of dogs in the litter and saw many of them as pups (and still see some of them as adults since our breeder has meetups) we know that what you see as a puppy often plays out as an adult and if you can choose you may be able to control a bit for what they end up being like in a grown up personality. But a lot of that also comes from how you raise them. Our dog is absolutely different depending on which one of us he's hanging out with.
A Boston Terrier may not be right for you. They are pretty high energy as pups and we are just now starting to see ours chill out but they are fun, sturdy, clever and stubborn big-little-dogs who love being with their families.
posted by marylynn at 11:41 AM on July 28, 2018
I was a previous non-dog owner, my husband's family bred a rare breed dog for a number of years. He insisted in a purebred dog, so I deferred to him. Our lifestyle is such that a big dog didn't make much sense - we don't have much of a yard and while we could take time to exercise a dog on walks or at the beach we also knew we wouldn't be running with one or going hiking for miles. We also wanted one that was easy to care for coat-wise - something we could hose off and get all the sand off after being at the beach, and that didn't have a lot of fur. We wanted something "big enough to go everywhere but small enough to go everywhere" so something 20-40 pounds. And we wanted a dog that could be left alone without losing their mind but also that would generally be a companion animal. We had a number of possible breeds but ended up deciding the Boston would be the right one for us.
We've had our dog for 2 years now and we love him and love the breed. Each individual dog is different and as we had a choice of dogs in the litter and saw many of them as pups (and still see some of them as adults since our breeder has meetups) we know that what you see as a puppy often plays out as an adult and if you can choose you may be able to control a bit for what they end up being like in a grown up personality. But a lot of that also comes from how you raise them. Our dog is absolutely different depending on which one of us he's hanging out with.
A Boston Terrier may not be right for you. They are pretty high energy as pups and we are just now starting to see ours chill out but they are fun, sturdy, clever and stubborn big-little-dogs who love being with their families.
posted by marylynn at 11:41 AM on July 28, 2018
The meanest most bitey dog my family ever had was a pure bred cocker spaniel raised from a puppy. He just...switched...one day and bit my older brother's thumbnail off (my brother was 8ish yrs old, the dog loved him v much, he was always gentle with the dog, she really did just snap). We were very lucky it wasn't worse. My granny and my brother have dogs from the same littler (mini schnauzers) and their personalities could not be any more different, it was like that from birth, no amount of training has calmed down my brother's dog (who is 8yrs old and is still running, jumping, pleading for attention like a puppy). Most even dog experts can't reliably tell you what exact breed a dog is, especially if there is any amount of mixing. People have a very outsized idea about bully breeds because any problem dog is suddenly "part pit" even if most people would say "that's at least a 90% lab." The best thing to do is to meet the dog, to try to work out their personality, yes maybe even a foster (or is being fostered where you can visit them multiple times). I do not think you'll be happy with a puppy because of your concerns.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:07 PM on July 28, 2018
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:07 PM on July 28, 2018
Don't get a puppy if you have a baby. Puppies bite little fingers and faces. They will poop on the floor where your baby crawls. They get eat diapers- like go into the trash and get them out and run to your bed and snack on baby poop there. The breed doesn't matter. And this puppy phase will realistically last about 18 months. It's a long 18-24 months.
I love puppies, but unless you have experience raising a dog from a puppy, now is really not a great time to start. I say this because you will always prioritize your human baby, but puppies need someone to have that same level of patience with them.
I highly recommend a foster to adopt situation where you can try out a puppy (while saving their lives). Or of you do go the breeder route only buy from a breeder that will take your dog back if it doesn't work out.
posted by KMoney at 4:57 AM on May 21, 2019
I love puppies, but unless you have experience raising a dog from a puppy, now is really not a great time to start. I say this because you will always prioritize your human baby, but puppies need someone to have that same level of patience with them.
I highly recommend a foster to adopt situation where you can try out a puppy (while saving their lives). Or of you do go the breeder route only buy from a breeder that will take your dog back if it doesn't work out.
posted by KMoney at 4:57 AM on May 21, 2019
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posted by cakelite at 11:12 AM on July 26, 2018 [41 favorites]