Best practices for LGBTQ phrasing?
July 20, 2018 8:18 AM Subscribe
I'm cishet, but associate with a big loveable group of fluid and multidimensional LGBTQ friends. I feel good about most inclusive speech things, like using non-gendered language and proper pronouns and such, but am starting to feel weird about the word lesbian. Is it appropriate for me to use?
I think it's low on the inclusivity sin list, and my friends say it's fine, but for whatever reason I'm hesitant to call my friends lesbian when talking about them with others. Am I being overly cautious?
I think my broader hang up is that I don't want to label my friend's sexuality so rigidly, even if they are rigid for all intents and purposes (self-identified lesbian, married to another woman.) It may be different if I was LGBTQ myself, but feel a bit crass saying it as a straight dude. It's similar to how I personally don't say bitch and dislike when men say it, but have no problem with women saying it.
What say you folks?
I think it's low on the inclusivity sin list, and my friends say it's fine, but for whatever reason I'm hesitant to call my friends lesbian when talking about them with others. Am I being overly cautious?
I think my broader hang up is that I don't want to label my friend's sexuality so rigidly, even if they are rigid for all intents and purposes (self-identified lesbian, married to another woman.) It may be different if I was LGBTQ myself, but feel a bit crass saying it as a straight dude. It's similar to how I personally don't say bitch and dislike when men say it, but have no problem with women saying it.
What say you folks?
Is it necessary to identify their sexuality when talking with others? Can you just say 'my friend'? Or 'my friend and their wife'?
posted by QuakerMel at 8:30 AM on July 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by QuakerMel at 8:30 AM on July 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
I have heard it said that a lot of straight people feel uneasy with the word "lesbian" because there are so many unconscious cues in our culture that it is dirty/pornographic or unacceptably anti-men - that this feeling derives not from a concern about rigidity but from homophobic and misogynist socialization. Straight people treat it as if it's a slur because misogynistic homophobia means that some straight people use it like one.
If your friend actually identifies themselves as a lesbian, you should feel confident in describing them as a lesbian to other people, and if you feel uncomfortable with the word, maybe do some free-associating and brainstorming to see what social cues are giving you that discomfort?
posted by Frowner at 8:31 AM on July 20, 2018 [50 favorites]
If your friend actually identifies themselves as a lesbian, you should feel confident in describing them as a lesbian to other people, and if you feel uncomfortable with the word, maybe do some free-associating and brainstorming to see what social cues are giving you that discomfort?
posted by Frowner at 8:31 AM on July 20, 2018 [50 favorites]
How often is it relevant to be specific about your friend's sexuality with others anyway? I can't think of a time I've ever had to specifically explain to someone that a friend is a lesbian. I have mentioned girlfriends and wives when it's relevant to the conversation; when it's not, it doesn't need to come up...?
but to answer the question, if you find you need to, it's fine and good to describe people with the label they self-identify as. Lesbian is not a perjorative.
posted by corvine at 8:32 AM on July 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
but to answer the question, if you find you need to, it's fine and good to describe people with the label they self-identify as. Lesbian is not a perjorative.
posted by corvine at 8:32 AM on July 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
I mean, I assume that you're talking about things like, "My friend, who herself is a lesbian, has told me that her experience of [thing related to sexuality] is [thing that it is relevant and appropriate to share]", rather than "and I'm going surfing with my friend - a lesbian, by the way!"
posted by Frowner at 8:32 AM on July 20, 2018 [24 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 8:32 AM on July 20, 2018 [24 favorites]
As a non-lesbian queer person, it sounds to me like, yeah, you're being too cautious. I mean, there are definitely words that queer folks use to describe ourselves that seem analogous to what you're saying about the word bitch, but lesbian is not one of them. A quick Google search for "lesbian association" reveals a bunch of non-profits that include the word. It's thoroughly mainstream and socially acceptable.
On preview: also what Frowner said.
posted by overglow at 8:34 AM on July 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
On preview: also what Frowner said.
posted by overglow at 8:34 AM on July 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
As a queer (but not lesbian) woman, I think the most respectful thing usually is to refer to people by the terms they themselves use. If I have a friend who calls herself a lesbian, I speak of her as a lesbian if for some reason it's relevant to speak of her orientation to others. I would expect a cishet person to do the same.
That can get a bit tricky if it's one of those terms that's controversial - like, say, queer. Enough people want to yell at me for calling myself queer that I have no expectation my straight friends should have to put themselves through that nonsense on my behalf. I call myself bisexual in many contexts to avoid The Discourse, and would have no problem with my cishet friends doing the same.
I don't know of any reason why lesbian would be a potentially controversial term in that vein; but then, perhaps there's controversy about it that I've missed by virtue of not being a lesbian. Your friend would know, I would suggest you just ask her! But until you have a chance to do that, I think you're clear to keep using the word lesbian. If you have other friends whose preferred terms you're less sure about, you can always go with something like "My friend Schmabitha is a member of the LGBT community but I'm not 100% sure what her preferred label is." Or just "Schmabitha's partner is a teacher, her name is Schmessica" if her current circumstance is the part that's relevant to the conversation without getting into what her whole history might be.
posted by Stacey at 8:34 AM on July 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
That can get a bit tricky if it's one of those terms that's controversial - like, say, queer. Enough people want to yell at me for calling myself queer that I have no expectation my straight friends should have to put themselves through that nonsense on my behalf. I call myself bisexual in many contexts to avoid The Discourse, and would have no problem with my cishet friends doing the same.
I don't know of any reason why lesbian would be a potentially controversial term in that vein; but then, perhaps there's controversy about it that I've missed by virtue of not being a lesbian. Your friend would know, I would suggest you just ask her! But until you have a chance to do that, I think you're clear to keep using the word lesbian. If you have other friends whose preferred terms you're less sure about, you can always go with something like "My friend Schmabitha is a member of the LGBT community but I'm not 100% sure what her preferred label is." Or just "Schmabitha's partner is a teacher, her name is Schmessica" if her current circumstance is the part that's relevant to the conversation without getting into what her whole history might be.
posted by Stacey at 8:34 AM on July 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
I'm confused about why you would feel it too rigid to call a self-identified lesbian a lesbian and why you are second guessing your LBGTQ friends' assurances that it's fine...I mean, what can we give you that you haven't already gotten, here?
posted by desuetude at 8:42 AM on July 20, 2018 [21 favorites]
posted by desuetude at 8:42 AM on July 20, 2018 [21 favorites]
I feel like if your friend has defined her sexuality "that ridigly", she does so for a reason--I would be very unhappy, for example, if someone presented my sexuality in a way that implied that I am attracted to men. She uses lesbian, because that's how she identifies--using something else is actively disrespectful to her.
posted by mishafletch at 8:49 AM on July 20, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by mishafletch at 8:49 AM on July 20, 2018 [18 favorites]
I think my broader hang up is that I don't want to label my friend's sexuality so rigidly
I'm kind of uncomfortable with the idea that calling a self-identified lesbian a lesbian is "too rigid." I never hear people say they're uncomfortable about calling their gay male friends "gay" because it's too rigid. She is a woman who is exclusively attracted to other women. She therefore calls herself a lesbian. I would be extremely uncomfortable if my friends decided the sexual category I chose to identify myself by was too "rigid." That's really, really not your call to make.
Also, why compare a positive term of self-identification like "lesbian" to the word "bitch"? People have negative associations with "lesbian" because people are homophobic and lesbophobic, not because the word ever meant anything inherently bad or negative.
posted by armadillo1224 at 8:53 AM on July 20, 2018 [34 favorites]
I'm kind of uncomfortable with the idea that calling a self-identified lesbian a lesbian is "too rigid." I never hear people say they're uncomfortable about calling their gay male friends "gay" because it's too rigid. She is a woman who is exclusively attracted to other women. She therefore calls herself a lesbian. I would be extremely uncomfortable if my friends decided the sexual category I chose to identify myself by was too "rigid." That's really, really not your call to make.
Also, why compare a positive term of self-identification like "lesbian" to the word "bitch"? People have negative associations with "lesbian" because people are homophobic and lesbophobic, not because the word ever meant anything inherently bad or negative.
posted by armadillo1224 at 8:53 AM on July 20, 2018 [34 favorites]
Lesbians are real people. Lesbian is not a slur. Their sexuality is not "rigid" and I think you need to examine your underlying misogyny and homphobia based on the phrasing here.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 8:59 AM on July 20, 2018 [27 favorites]
posted by masquesoporfavor at 8:59 AM on July 20, 2018 [27 favorites]
You might subconsciously feel more comfortable/respectful describing identities with adjectives, not nouns, but IME that's more of a thing with non-LGBTQ terms (i.e. "bagel is a Jewish person" rather than "bagel is a Jew.") I don't feel like there is quite the same history of people talking about "the lesbians" in othering ways, I think you can describe people as lesbians who identify that way, it's fine.
Even using nouns rather than adjectives, or using person first language with people who really don't like it, seems much less insensitive than language like "bitch."
posted by bagel at 9:06 AM on July 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Even using nouns rather than adjectives, or using person first language with people who really don't like it, seems much less insensitive than language like "bitch."
posted by bagel at 9:06 AM on July 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
This article is two years old but still pretty applicable, and may help you clarify why you find the word to be too rigid. However, I can personally attest that it fucking sucks to be intentially mis-identified by people who are supposed to be friends just because you don't fit whatever mold they have in their mind of your sexuality.
posted by muddgirl at 9:07 AM on July 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 9:07 AM on July 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
Lesbians are real people. Lesbian is not a slur.
I am repeating this because I only have one favorite to give it and that isn't enough. Lesbian is not a slur. Lesbian is not a slur. Jesus Christ. Call people lesbians who self-identify as lesbians. Call them something else if they self-identify as someone else. Call them any of these things only in the context where their sexual orientation is relevant and either you know it to be public or it's already known to the person you're talking to.
posted by Sequence at 9:08 AM on July 20, 2018 [19 favorites]
I am repeating this because I only have one favorite to give it and that isn't enough. Lesbian is not a slur. Lesbian is not a slur. Jesus Christ. Call people lesbians who self-identify as lesbians. Call them something else if they self-identify as someone else. Call them any of these things only in the context where their sexual orientation is relevant and either you know it to be public or it's already known to the person you're talking to.
posted by Sequence at 9:08 AM on July 20, 2018 [19 favorites]
Unless the person in question gives you an alternative, anything other than their self-chosen label is questionable at best, wildly disrespectful at worst. (I identify as a lesbian and am totally fine with queer, use both interchangeably, but that's *my* choice and I'd be super pissed if I discovered one of my friends had picked some other term for me without my consultation and approval.)
posted by restless_nomad at 9:08 AM on July 20, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 9:08 AM on July 20, 2018 [9 favorites]
I’m in a similar situation and the best advice I’ve gotten so far is to *ask them*.
Being an ally means learning, listening and adapting. Not all lgbt people are the same. Ask the one/s you feel unsure about. They will be happy to tell you, and will appreciate that you care.
posted by andreinla at 9:21 AM on July 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Being an ally means learning, listening and adapting. Not all lgbt people are the same. Ask the one/s you feel unsure about. They will be happy to tell you, and will appreciate that you care.
posted by andreinla at 9:21 AM on July 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't want to label my friend's sexuality so rigidly, even if they are rigid for all intents and purposes (self-identified lesbian, married to another woman.)
She is what she says she is. Full stop. There's no certification exam, self-identification is all there is. It is certainly not YOUR place to decide what she is, or refuse to use her chosen words just because you don't think she's lesbian enough or she's too stuck up or repressed or whatever. I don't care if she tells you she's a lesbian while having sex with all 9 of her husbands, or if she tells you she's a lesbian today and next year she's figured out that wasn't quite right, you accept her identification because she is the arbiter of her identification. Shit is complicated, you don't know.
There's a lot of fifth column agita right now (especially in Tumblrland, but it's started hitting Twitter really hard very recently) to start insisting that "real lesbians" have to meet X requirements and this or that person isn't a lesbian because whatever, or that words of identification are slurs when they are not and while a lot of people do sort of blunder through that phase when they first grapple with the idea of sexual orientation, there's every sign that the chans and similar are embracing it as a new fun hobby and please do not be one of them.
A lot of people who largely fit higher up in the hierarchies - straight, cis, white, thin, not impoverished - tend to believe that any sensation of discomfort should be honored because what they feel is always right so discomfort should be avoided. The rest of us learn that discomfort is a thing that needs to be pulled up under a bright light and examined, and the fix for the discomfort is growth, not eradication of the thing that made us feel bad.
If a person claims a self-identified identity, then that is what they are. Call people by the names they want, by the identification they want, by the pronoun they want. Just do it, you're not being given a vote on it.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:27 AM on July 20, 2018 [22 favorites]
She is what she says she is. Full stop. There's no certification exam, self-identification is all there is. It is certainly not YOUR place to decide what she is, or refuse to use her chosen words just because you don't think she's lesbian enough or she's too stuck up or repressed or whatever. I don't care if she tells you she's a lesbian while having sex with all 9 of her husbands, or if she tells you she's a lesbian today and next year she's figured out that wasn't quite right, you accept her identification because she is the arbiter of her identification. Shit is complicated, you don't know.
There's a lot of fifth column agita right now (especially in Tumblrland, but it's started hitting Twitter really hard very recently) to start insisting that "real lesbians" have to meet X requirements and this or that person isn't a lesbian because whatever, or that words of identification are slurs when they are not and while a lot of people do sort of blunder through that phase when they first grapple with the idea of sexual orientation, there's every sign that the chans and similar are embracing it as a new fun hobby and please do not be one of them.
A lot of people who largely fit higher up in the hierarchies - straight, cis, white, thin, not impoverished - tend to believe that any sensation of discomfort should be honored because what they feel is always right so discomfort should be avoided. The rest of us learn that discomfort is a thing that needs to be pulled up under a bright light and examined, and the fix for the discomfort is growth, not eradication of the thing that made us feel bad.
If a person claims a self-identified identity, then that is what they are. Call people by the names they want, by the identification they want, by the pronoun they want. Just do it, you're not being given a vote on it.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:27 AM on July 20, 2018 [22 favorites]
I feel your question is more about gendered language, and not language around self-identification. I avoid using the term "lesbian" in favor of "gay", just like I don't use "actress" and instead always use "actor".
posted by Pig Tail Orchestra at 9:41 AM on July 20, 2018
posted by Pig Tail Orchestra at 9:41 AM on July 20, 2018
Yeah don't use gay unless, again, you are asked to. Male-defaulting frigging everything is not a neutral choice.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:42 AM on July 20, 2018 [32 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 9:42 AM on July 20, 2018 [32 favorites]
(I identify as a lesbian and am totally fine with queer, use both interchangeably, but that's *my* choice and I'd be super pissed if I discovered one of my friends had picked some other term for me without my consultation and approval.)
This. Use the word she uses. I'm a gay woman who has never liked the word 'lesbian,' and I'm also a person who has too many negative associations with the word 'queer' to be comfortable personally reclaiming it.
I had a conversation recently with a straight person who had questions about The Gay. Which, fine. It's a thing that still happens, and I try to be open to it as the sometimes-token gay friend. But the conversation went like:
Q: As a lesbian, do you feel _____?
A: Well, as a gay person, my opinion is ____.
Q: Okay, but do lesbians ______?
A: Well, I can't speak for all gay women, but _____.
I was annoyed by the end of the conversation, because I was gently correcting my friend about the term I personally prefer and they weren't picking up on it. In the end, no harm was done, but when you live your life knowing that there's an invisible barrier that prevents people from fully understanding you, and when you live your life constantly bumping up against that barrier and wishing it didn't exist, simple things like mirroring someone's desired language can go a long way towards chipping that barrier away.
posted by mudpuppie at 9:42 AM on July 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
This. Use the word she uses. I'm a gay woman who has never liked the word 'lesbian,' and I'm also a person who has too many negative associations with the word 'queer' to be comfortable personally reclaiming it.
I had a conversation recently with a straight person who had questions about The Gay. Which, fine. It's a thing that still happens, and I try to be open to it as the sometimes-token gay friend. But the conversation went like:
Q: As a lesbian, do you feel _____?
A: Well, as a gay person, my opinion is ____.
Q: Okay, but do lesbians ______?
A: Well, I can't speak for all gay women, but _____.
I was annoyed by the end of the conversation, because I was gently correcting my friend about the term I personally prefer and they weren't picking up on it. In the end, no harm was done, but when you live your life knowing that there's an invisible barrier that prevents people from fully understanding you, and when you live your life constantly bumping up against that barrier and wishing it didn't exist, simple things like mirroring someone's desired language can go a long way towards chipping that barrier away.
posted by mudpuppie at 9:42 AM on July 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
Don’t compare the word lesbian to the word Bitch.
posted by DaughterOfShulamith at 10:24 AM on July 20, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by DaughterOfShulamith at 10:24 AM on July 20, 2018 [17 favorites]
Nthing that if your friend identifies as a lesbian, you should call her a lesbian. I use both lesbian and queer, but for me they're not interchangeable, and each term has a politics of its own. If one of my friends insisted that I shouldn't be referred to as a lesbian, I would be offended, for reasons others have articulated above.
Nonetheless, I'm going to repeat some of those things, because they're important: lesbian is not a slur. Lesbian is a word that speaks to a primary orientation toward women both sexually and more broadly. For me, it's valuable to reclaim the term from its association with TERFs, and that's part of the reason I identify as a lesbian. I also appreciate the way it speaks to a personal practice of centering women in my life.
If you want to get deep into reading about the history of the term and how people have theorized it, you might dig up a copy of Adrienne Rich's essay "Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence." For a more recent and relatively comprehensive set of takes on the same question, this Autostraddle Roundtable on the term might be helpful.
More broadly, you might ask yourself: what on earth makes this term feel crass? Is it because you associate it more closely with sex than sexuality? Is it because your own associations with lesbianism are maybe a little male-gaze-y?
posted by dizziest at 10:29 AM on July 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
Nonetheless, I'm going to repeat some of those things, because they're important: lesbian is not a slur. Lesbian is a word that speaks to a primary orientation toward women both sexually and more broadly. For me, it's valuable to reclaim the term from its association with TERFs, and that's part of the reason I identify as a lesbian. I also appreciate the way it speaks to a personal practice of centering women in my life.
If you want to get deep into reading about the history of the term and how people have theorized it, you might dig up a copy of Adrienne Rich's essay "Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence." For a more recent and relatively comprehensive set of takes on the same question, this Autostraddle Roundtable on the term might be helpful.
More broadly, you might ask yourself: what on earth makes this term feel crass? Is it because you associate it more closely with sex than sexuality? Is it because your own associations with lesbianism are maybe a little male-gaze-y?
posted by dizziest at 10:29 AM on July 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
If she identifies as a lesbian, then, yes, you use that term. Many people dislike the term “queer”, but if my friend identifies as queer, you bet that’s how I refer to him, regardless of my own thoughts on the term.
posted by greermahoney at 11:06 AM on July 20, 2018
posted by greermahoney at 11:06 AM on July 20, 2018
Response by poster: These are all super helpful responses that help me explore my internalized issues, thank you for sharing. I ask so that I can improve myself, and don't mean to offend anyone. As Frowner mentioned, it comes up when I'm talking about sexuality or related experiences, not just like, out of the blue.
Follow-ups:
I call folks by what they identify as. With individuals that's clearly how it should be. If my friend self-identifies as a lesbian she's a lesbian. But what about groups? I.E., "my gay friends have talked to me about such and such experience." vs. "my queer friends have talked to me about such and such experience." If I'm specifically thinking about experiences my lesbian-identified friends (plural) have shared, should I say "my lesbian friends..."?
I think maybe there's an audience/codeswitching component of this worth exploring too. If I'm with less progressive folks (I'm in the South), I worry lesbian can bring up misogynistic cues as a few people have mentioned. In more progressive settings I've been told terms like lesbian are "dated" or "basic" because "gender isn't just a spectrum" etc. etc... In those cases I just say that it's how my friends identify, and that it's not my place or experience to comment further. I'm curious if there's another approach folks would recommend?
Re: B-word, sorry for equating them. I was trying to think of a word that's appropriate for in-group people to use that I wouldn't use because I'm not in the group. Poor example.
Thanks again everyone!
posted by matrixclown at 11:11 AM on July 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Follow-ups:
I call folks by what they identify as. With individuals that's clearly how it should be. If my friend self-identifies as a lesbian she's a lesbian. But what about groups? I.E., "my gay friends have talked to me about such and such experience." vs. "my queer friends have talked to me about such and such experience." If I'm specifically thinking about experiences my lesbian-identified friends (plural) have shared, should I say "my lesbian friends..."?
I think maybe there's an audience/codeswitching component of this worth exploring too. If I'm with less progressive folks (I'm in the South), I worry lesbian can bring up misogynistic cues as a few people have mentioned. In more progressive settings I've been told terms like lesbian are "dated" or "basic" because "gender isn't just a spectrum" etc. etc... In those cases I just say that it's how my friends identify, and that it's not my place or experience to comment further. I'm curious if there's another approach folks would recommend?
Re: B-word, sorry for equating them. I was trying to think of a word that's appropriate for in-group people to use that I wouldn't use because I'm not in the group. Poor example.
Thanks again everyone!
posted by matrixclown at 11:11 AM on July 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
The joy of misogynistic people is that they're unlikely to stop being misogynistic because of your word choice. Model the language you want them to use.
Regarding progressive groups, you're probably talking too much. I know it's tempting, but when someone's talking about their lived experiences, please don't cut in to add your two cents.
posted by Trifling at 11:38 AM on July 20, 2018
Regarding progressive groups, you're probably talking too much. I know it's tempting, but when someone's talking about their lived experiences, please don't cut in to add your two cents.
posted by Trifling at 11:38 AM on July 20, 2018
I feel like if you have a reason to talk about groups, and you're certain that everyone in the group identifies as a lesbian, or as gay, or as whatever, you can just say that. If you're not sure, or if it's a mixed group, I don't think that there's actually any term you can use that will be universally inoffensive. I'd vote for queer--it was, until about ten years ago, an fairly uncontroversial way to reference the community, and much of the present-day pushback is from people who would very much like not to include [various groups] in their community. That said, there's a minority of people who find it wildly offensive, and insist that you should go with something like "my friends who are part of the lgbt community," which is a way of phrasing it that will offend a different set of people.
Unfortunately, the diversity within the queer community means that the chances of getting a mandate on one phrasing or another is unlikely. Identity and the ways that we refer to it are messy, and queer stuff in particular often has deep, hurtful histories for people. I think you just need to pick something and go with it, and be prepared for occasional pushback on whatever term you choose.
posted by mishafletch at 11:45 AM on July 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately, the diversity within the queer community means that the chances of getting a mandate on one phrasing or another is unlikely. Identity and the ways that we refer to it are messy, and queer stuff in particular often has deep, hurtful histories for people. I think you just need to pick something and go with it, and be prepared for occasional pushback on whatever term you choose.
posted by mishafletch at 11:45 AM on July 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think your response to progressive groups that it's just how your friend identifies and it's not your place to comment is perfectly fine. You don't have to get into a debate about the rightness of the identity of a stranger (to them).
I'd be uncomfortable hearing 'queer' from a cishet person but I wouldn't be, like, mad about it, because obviously, there's no consensus or term that everyone is comfortable with. I would just say maybe don't use it around the less progressive southern people, in line with modeling the language you want them to use. I like being specific where I can, so yeah, if you're talking about lesbian-only experiences you've heard, you can say 'your lesbian friends' or 'your friends who like women' or whatever's applicable.
posted by gaybobbie at 1:06 PM on July 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'd be uncomfortable hearing 'queer' from a cishet person but I wouldn't be, like, mad about it, because obviously, there's no consensus or term that everyone is comfortable with. I would just say maybe don't use it around the less progressive southern people, in line with modeling the language you want them to use. I like being specific where I can, so yeah, if you're talking about lesbian-only experiences you've heard, you can say 'your lesbian friends' or 'your friends who like women' or whatever's applicable.
posted by gaybobbie at 1:06 PM on July 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
In what circumstances do them being lesbian matter when referring to them in 3rd person?
Be casual and real like you would a straight person. You don’t say “my straight friends blah and blah” just say “Mary’s wife(partner/GF/whatever) Jane is a rad (gardener/poet/race car driver/snake charmer) you should meet them sometime”
posted by nikaspark at 4:03 PM on July 20, 2018
Be casual and real like you would a straight person. You don’t say “my straight friends blah and blah” just say “Mary’s wife(partner/GF/whatever) Jane is a rad (gardener/poet/race car driver/snake charmer) you should meet them sometime”
posted by nikaspark at 4:03 PM on July 20, 2018
Lesbian here. If your friends identify as lesbians, it’s appropriate to call them lesbians. As a cis straight person, you should probably avoid words like dyke, lesbo, lezzie, muffdiver, that kind of thing. Lesbian is fine though.
posted by bile and syntax at 5:24 AM on July 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by bile and syntax at 5:24 AM on July 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
I.E., "my gay friends have talked to me about such and such experience." vs. "my queer friends have talked to me about such and such experience."
From the perspective of a gay man:
If you know at least some of your friends identify as lesbian, then I would say: "my gay and lesbian friends have talked about how they were bullied in school and I think we should have stronger anti-bullying programs" (that is an example where sexuality would be relevant). If you have gay, lesbian, and trans friends, or you're not sure they're all cis, I would say "some of my friends have been bullied because of their sexual or gender orientation" or "my friends like Provincetown because it is so welcoming to LGBT people."
I never use queer to describe myself. I'm not deeply offended if someone else uses it for me, but I definitely make a mental note of it and I would think it was especially weird if a cishet person used it. To me, even though it's been reclaimed by many, it's still an in-group term like the n-word but less offensive (made obvious by the fact that I can't even write the n-word). I do use "the queer community" sometimes because LGBTQIAA+ is a mess to say or write and I'm lazy. "Queer" is shorthand for "not cis and/or het" but it also carries political and cultural connotations that are too complex to get into here.
Language and society are fluid and these answers may be wrong in 5 years. I think you are good for asking and hopefully your friends see your sensitivity.
posted by AFABulous at 8:18 AM on July 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
From the perspective of a gay man:
If you know at least some of your friends identify as lesbian, then I would say: "my gay and lesbian friends have talked about how they were bullied in school and I think we should have stronger anti-bullying programs" (that is an example where sexuality would be relevant). If you have gay, lesbian, and trans friends, or you're not sure they're all cis, I would say "some of my friends have been bullied because of their sexual or gender orientation" or "my friends like Provincetown because it is so welcoming to LGBT people."
I never use queer to describe myself. I'm not deeply offended if someone else uses it for me, but I definitely make a mental note of it and I would think it was especially weird if a cishet person used it. To me, even though it's been reclaimed by many, it's still an in-group term like the n-word but less offensive (made obvious by the fact that I can't even write the n-word). I do use "the queer community" sometimes because LGBTQIAA+ is a mess to say or write and I'm lazy. "Queer" is shorthand for "not cis and/or het" but it also carries political and cultural connotations that are too complex to get into here.
Language and society are fluid and these answers may be wrong in 5 years. I think you are good for asking and hopefully your friends see your sensitivity.
posted by AFABulous at 8:18 AM on July 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Small note: it's okay to say "lesbian" as a noun, because "woman" is implicitly included in the word, but it's not okay to say "Sam is a transgender" or "Joe is a gay" and definitely not "Alex is a queer" or "Pat is a f-g." Some grammar nerd can probably explain it better.
Correct:
Jane is a lesbian
Sam is a transgender man/woman/person (not "transgendered," because it's not something that happened to Sam but something they are. Same way that "gayed man" or "talled woman" make no sense.)
Joe is a gay man (and, as mentioned, some people use "gay woman" and not lesbian)
Alex is a queer man/woman/person
posted by AFABulous at 8:27 AM on July 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Correct:
Jane is a lesbian
Sam is a transgender man/woman/person (not "transgendered," because it's not something that happened to Sam but something they are. Same way that "gayed man" or "talled woman" make no sense.)
Joe is a gay man (and, as mentioned, some people use "gay woman" and not lesbian)
Alex is a queer man/woman/person
posted by AFABulous at 8:27 AM on July 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
In more progressive settings I've been told terms like lesbian are "dated" or "basic" because "gender isn't just a spectrum" etc. etc... In those cases I just say that it's how my friends identify, and that it's not my place or experience to comment further. I'm curious if there's another approach folks would recommend?
Personally, I would counter that it sounds like they're using a pretty "dated" and "basic" understanding of the term "lesbian," but those are probably not waters you want to wade into. Your current approach sounds like a very good one, but if you want to, and you can do so in a tactful way, you could amplify the voices of self-identified lesbians by pointing them toward the Autostraddle roundtable I linked above for some more complicated takes on the term in its contemporary usage.
posted by dizziest at 9:19 AM on July 23, 2018
Personally, I would counter that it sounds like they're using a pretty "dated" and "basic" understanding of the term "lesbian," but those are probably not waters you want to wade into. Your current approach sounds like a very good one, but if you want to, and you can do so in a tactful way, you could amplify the voices of self-identified lesbians by pointing them toward the Autostraddle roundtable I linked above for some more complicated takes on the term in its contemporary usage.
posted by dizziest at 9:19 AM on July 23, 2018
I have several friends and relations who are lesbians and all of them express annoyance with the fact that people constantly call them “queer” or whatever instead of lesbians (when it’s relevant, obviously).
posted by stoneandstar at 9:21 AM on July 24, 2018
posted by stoneandstar at 9:21 AM on July 24, 2018
This thread is closed to new comments.
If this matters to you, why not ask your friend if she has a problem with the label?
posted by saeculorum at 8:21 AM on July 20, 2018 [2 favorites]