My father has a mean streak, what to do about it, filter.
July 16, 2018 4:18 PM Subscribe
My father, now a widower, seems to want to transfer the aggression he felt towards my mother upon me, his daughter.
My questions are,
1.) What mental health conditions, if any, could be the cause of his behavior and
2.) I need book recommendations on how to deal with this/personal anecdotes and advice.
Nobody here is my doctor or his, I will not take this as medical advice, etc.
My father and mother had a dysfunctional relationship. She was very critical of him, and he swallowed back a lot of resentment because he believed in staying married at all costs to self and happiness. He didn't swallow all of it though. He learned what he could say that would be certain to cause an anger eruption on her part, and he did it frequently. The two of them bickered so much that it was hard for all but the most loyal people to spend time with them. Sometimes he would say very mean things, or be outright insulting. She withdrew from him, and the only comments she made towards him were criticisms and corrections, further fueling the cycle.
He would at times be mean to other people, but they weren't married to him and could retreat. Mostly he was angry with her and being mean was how he expressed it. But then she passed, and suddenly, I as his daughter, am being addressed in the same manner and tone that he used to direct at her.
I immediately established a boundary, stating that if he ever repeated that behavior towards me I would ask him to leave/hang up/not put up with it. He agreed that he was out of line and said he would not do so again. I am worried though as I know he will forget and push my boundaries again and again. I need some strategies on how to be prepared to defend the line I've drawn. I don't want to cut off contact unless no other option remains.
I believe there is an underlying condition causing this behavior but I don't have a name for it. It would help me to have some idea where to begin to do research, so that I know what I am dealing with. He will not go to a therapist or psychiatrist for a diagnosis, forget it. He is very bad with people. He says clueless things, and talks relentlessly, never letting anyone else get a word in edgewise, and appears to never listen to what is said to him (though I have since realized he actually hears much more than he lets on.) He hates loud noises and crowds, I believe they overstimulate him, he can't handle them, runs for the hills. He is rude to women he perceives as controlling or too loud, or to anyone he believes is not his equal. He tends to be very logical (as opposed to creative, or emotional) in his thinking, and is capable of obsessive focus. He logically understands that people, even his own children, have sex, but in reality he seems to find the idea of sex abhorrent, in part I believe due to religious conditioning. It makes for some very childish exchanges, and sometimes, I have the feeling I am looking at an angry little boy in a grown man's body.
I know this is rather confused. In a nutshell, what I am after is to nip in the bud his wish that I replace my mother (as a caretaker, cook, board for verbal darts) in his life. I need to stop this right now. Any and all advice is appreciated.
My father and mother had a dysfunctional relationship. She was very critical of him, and he swallowed back a lot of resentment because he believed in staying married at all costs to self and happiness. He didn't swallow all of it though. He learned what he could say that would be certain to cause an anger eruption on her part, and he did it frequently. The two of them bickered so much that it was hard for all but the most loyal people to spend time with them. Sometimes he would say very mean things, or be outright insulting. She withdrew from him, and the only comments she made towards him were criticisms and corrections, further fueling the cycle.
He would at times be mean to other people, but they weren't married to him and could retreat. Mostly he was angry with her and being mean was how he expressed it. But then she passed, and suddenly, I as his daughter, am being addressed in the same manner and tone that he used to direct at her.
I immediately established a boundary, stating that if he ever repeated that behavior towards me I would ask him to leave/hang up/not put up with it. He agreed that he was out of line and said he would not do so again. I am worried though as I know he will forget and push my boundaries again and again. I need some strategies on how to be prepared to defend the line I've drawn. I don't want to cut off contact unless no other option remains.
I believe there is an underlying condition causing this behavior but I don't have a name for it. It would help me to have some idea where to begin to do research, so that I know what I am dealing with. He will not go to a therapist or psychiatrist for a diagnosis, forget it. He is very bad with people. He says clueless things, and talks relentlessly, never letting anyone else get a word in edgewise, and appears to never listen to what is said to him (though I have since realized he actually hears much more than he lets on.) He hates loud noises and crowds, I believe they overstimulate him, he can't handle them, runs for the hills. He is rude to women he perceives as controlling or too loud, or to anyone he believes is not his equal. He tends to be very logical (as opposed to creative, or emotional) in his thinking, and is capable of obsessive focus. He logically understands that people, even his own children, have sex, but in reality he seems to find the idea of sex abhorrent, in part I believe due to religious conditioning. It makes for some very childish exchanges, and sometimes, I have the feeling I am looking at an angry little boy in a grown man's body.
I know this is rather confused. In a nutshell, what I am after is to nip in the bud his wish that I replace my mother (as a caretaker, cook, board for verbal darts) in his life. I need to stop this right now. Any and all advice is appreciated.
How old is your father? Did your mother do all the housework, cooking, etc.? How is he managing without her?
Based on one of your previous questions, I'm going to assume your father is in his late seventies or eighties. In addition to setting firm boundaries you might also want to point him to services like Meals on Wheels, senior day programs, home health aides, and other programs for him in his area. Is he a veteran? There might be some VA programs for him.
I don't think there is a specific mental illness he has, it sounds to me like he's just a crotchedy old guy who grew up believing men ruled the roost and now he no longer has your mother to boss around. He probably won't ever be someone with whom you can discuss anything real, his generation was raised not to talk about feelings. He needs something to do, something to fill his days, hobbies, whatever.
Be firm. Decide how much you want to deal with him and stick to it, at least for a few months. Take him grocery shopping once a week and help him stock up on microwaveable meals. Fix him dinner one set evening a week. Don't engage with his negativity. Tell him you'll leave if he is rude and do it.
As far as books, look into books on dealing with elderly parents, I don't have any recommendations. I just googled "dealing with difficult elderly parents" and found a lot of links. You're not alone in this, it's a generational thing. If he won't talk to a therapist, maybe you should.
posted by mareli at 4:56 PM on July 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
Based on one of your previous questions, I'm going to assume your father is in his late seventies or eighties. In addition to setting firm boundaries you might also want to point him to services like Meals on Wheels, senior day programs, home health aides, and other programs for him in his area. Is he a veteran? There might be some VA programs for him.
I don't think there is a specific mental illness he has, it sounds to me like he's just a crotchedy old guy who grew up believing men ruled the roost and now he no longer has your mother to boss around. He probably won't ever be someone with whom you can discuss anything real, his generation was raised not to talk about feelings. He needs something to do, something to fill his days, hobbies, whatever.
Be firm. Decide how much you want to deal with him and stick to it, at least for a few months. Take him grocery shopping once a week and help him stock up on microwaveable meals. Fix him dinner one set evening a week. Don't engage with his negativity. Tell him you'll leave if he is rude and do it.
As far as books, look into books on dealing with elderly parents, I don't have any recommendations. I just googled "dealing with difficult elderly parents" and found a lot of links. You're not alone in this, it's a generational thing. If he won't talk to a therapist, maybe you should.
posted by mareli at 4:56 PM on July 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
I am worried though as I know he will forget and push my boundaries again and again.
You are probably right. Boundaries are not something that you can just set once and expect the other person to immediately fall into the line. The true power comes when he forgets and then you do what you said you would do.
The fact that he agreed he was out of line is really positive. When it happens, try hard to stay calm and neutral - withdraw the way that you said you would. Don't be mean or angry like your mother would have done. With luck, he will figure out that you are very different from your mother and as you consistently present him such a different response, he will gradually adjust. And if not, you will be taking care of yourself and limiting your exposure to hurtful behavior so you will still be OK even if he doesn't learn.
posted by metahawk at 5:25 PM on July 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
You are probably right. Boundaries are not something that you can just set once and expect the other person to immediately fall into the line. The true power comes when he forgets and then you do what you said you would do.
The fact that he agreed he was out of line is really positive. When it happens, try hard to stay calm and neutral - withdraw the way that you said you would. Don't be mean or angry like your mother would have done. With luck, he will figure out that you are very different from your mother and as you consistently present him such a different response, he will gradually adjust. And if not, you will be taking care of yourself and limiting your exposure to hurtful behavior so you will still be OK even if he doesn't learn.
posted by metahawk at 5:25 PM on July 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
If he is religious, and resistant to seeing a psychiatrist, is there some sort of counseling available through his church/temple/mosque/etc, etc.? (I grew up Catholic and I know my parish had a counselor other than the priest who did grief counseling. ) It's not the same as a psychiatrist who could diagnose and prescribe meds, but it's somewhere to start.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 5:37 PM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 5:37 PM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
If he's religious in one of those hardcore patriarchal Christian churches don't bother asking his minister anything. The minister will just do his best to guilt trip you into becoming your father's unpaid maid.
posted by mareli at 5:54 PM on July 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by mareli at 5:54 PM on July 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
I believe there is an underlying condition causing this behavior but I don't have a name for it.
Yep, it's called assholery and a sense of entitlement.
I once asked my (now ex) partner why he downloaded all his shit on me. "If I can't download it on you, who can I download it on?" he asked, almost perplexed. Your dad just thinks he has a right if not a need to download his shit on you now that your mother is gone. You have to continually remind him that he doesn't have that right, and if he has a need to download shit, to do it on himself. Stick to your boundaries and don't budge an inch. He may just learn that his need to have you in his life for all the non-shit things trumps his need to be an asshole to someone.
posted by Thella at 6:39 PM on July 16, 2018 [19 favorites]
Yep, it's called assholery and a sense of entitlement.
I once asked my (now ex) partner why he downloaded all his shit on me. "If I can't download it on you, who can I download it on?" he asked, almost perplexed. Your dad just thinks he has a right if not a need to download his shit on you now that your mother is gone. You have to continually remind him that he doesn't have that right, and if he has a need to download shit, to do it on himself. Stick to your boundaries and don't budge an inch. He may just learn that his need to have you in his life for all the non-shit things trumps his need to be an asshole to someone.
posted by Thella at 6:39 PM on July 16, 2018 [19 favorites]
Reading the behaviours you describe in paragraph five, particularly where you note that he talks relentlessly, is obsessively logical, hates crowds and overstimulation: is there a chance your father is on the autism spectrum and has never been diagnosed?
posted by trotzdem_kunst at 7:10 PM on July 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by trotzdem_kunst at 7:10 PM on July 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
Being autistic doesn't make you abusive. One can be abusive and autistic, but being autistic certainly doesn't make you abusive.
As a licensed mental health professional, I have been struggling ever since you posted your question to think of a mental illness that would mean your current strategy is wrong. I've been failing. Regardless of any mental-health diagnosis or lack thereof, focusing on his behavior (rather than any underlying pathology) makes sense. As others have said, you'll likely need to reinforce your boundaries, and that's normal. Continue to be clear about your boundaries, and continue to follow through on any boundaries you set. Setting behavioral expectations is going to serve you much better than having strangers guess about psychiatric diagnoses.
posted by lazuli at 7:55 PM on July 16, 2018 [18 favorites]
As a licensed mental health professional, I have been struggling ever since you posted your question to think of a mental illness that would mean your current strategy is wrong. I've been failing. Regardless of any mental-health diagnosis or lack thereof, focusing on his behavior (rather than any underlying pathology) makes sense. As others have said, you'll likely need to reinforce your boundaries, and that's normal. Continue to be clear about your boundaries, and continue to follow through on any boundaries you set. Setting behavioral expectations is going to serve you much better than having strangers guess about psychiatric diagnoses.
posted by lazuli at 7:55 PM on July 16, 2018 [18 favorites]
Just wanted to say, this is a long hard road .. I am on it with my own aging parent who has some newly significant limitations that are hard to accept.. And who periodically is quite awful to be around.. I don't have any big answers but I can offer comisseration - feel free to memail me if that would be helpful.. Sometimes two heads are better than one, or , at any rate, if not better, less lonely at least.
posted by elgee at 8:10 PM on July 16, 2018
posted by elgee at 8:10 PM on July 16, 2018
"Dad, you know we've talked about you treating me this way, remember? You just did it again, so I'm going to leave/hang up/go do something else now. I'll talk to/see you [at next scheduled call or meeting up]."
The script itself isn't that hard, but getting yourself to say it to him in the moment, and then being consistent in responding this way, might be a tougher. If this part is a challenge, then I suggest finding a therapist so you have someone in your corner backing you up on maintaining the consistency (a trusted, sympathetic friend or sibling might also work). But really, consistency is the only way it'll get through and stick.
I don't know that it'd help you a lot to diagnose your dad when it comes to setting and maintaining this boundary. Certainly it might provide some sense of relief or even comfort to make better sense of why he acts the way he does; I can't see it being helpful unless it influences your course of action in a pragmatic way. And I definitely don't see any kind of diagnosis from anyone influencing your dad's actions in any way (except maybe to make him angrier and meaner).
posted by obliterati at 8:17 PM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
The script itself isn't that hard, but getting yourself to say it to him in the moment, and then being consistent in responding this way, might be a tougher. If this part is a challenge, then I suggest finding a therapist so you have someone in your corner backing you up on maintaining the consistency (a trusted, sympathetic friend or sibling might also work). But really, consistency is the only way it'll get through and stick.
I don't know that it'd help you a lot to diagnose your dad when it comes to setting and maintaining this boundary. Certainly it might provide some sense of relief or even comfort to make better sense of why he acts the way he does; I can't see it being helpful unless it influences your course of action in a pragmatic way. And I definitely don't see any kind of diagnosis from anyone influencing your dad's actions in any way (except maybe to make him angrier and meaner).
posted by obliterati at 8:17 PM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Irritability is a symptom of depression, and the term is kind of an understatement. In someone who has a history of living in a dysfunctional relationship, irritability could easily become much worse. I recommend a great book about dealing with someone who has Borderline Personality Disorder, also useful for dealing with anyone who has poor boundaries, is manipulative, highly dramatic, etc. Stop Walking on Eggshells. It takes a huge amount of energy to set boundaries and establish better behaviors. As people age, it's harder to change habits. I would be pretty fierce with him, and push pretty hard for him to consider anti-depressants. He may be acutely miserable, unable to recognize it, and ant-depressants can be incredibly helpful.
Also, the other side of the boundary setting is to praise him when he does good stuff. Dad, you were your sweet self today. It was so fun to be with you. If he likes movies, watch some fun, funny movies. If there's music he likes, try to help him re-connect to even a tiny bit of joy via music. No matter how difficult the marriage was, he's experiencing loss and disruption. It's so good of you to help him.
posted by theora55 at 8:22 PM on July 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also, the other side of the boundary setting is to praise him when he does good stuff. Dad, you were your sweet self today. It was so fun to be with you. If he likes movies, watch some fun, funny movies. If there's music he likes, try to help him re-connect to even a tiny bit of joy via music. No matter how difficult the marriage was, he's experiencing loss and disruption. It's so good of you to help him.
posted by theora55 at 8:22 PM on July 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
In my experience, encouraging someone to ask for a certain class of medication (like antidepressants) can backfire. If a psychiatrist evaluates them and determines they should try a different type of medication, the client will often refuse and then claim that psychiatry can't/won't help. It's generally more effective to encourage someone to seek whatever provider they're willing to consider, and let the provider do the encouraging.
posted by lazuli at 8:28 PM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 8:28 PM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've dealt with somethign similar. Both my parents spoke very unkindly to each other, and to me, and my father's behaviour escalated in the later stages of his life. It turned out to be early-stage vascular dementia worsening things for him. That's just context / background though. We don't know what is causing your father's behaviour. Maybe it's assholery, maybe it's something medical, maybe it's a mental health issue, maybe it's super hard to change a lifetimes's behaviour when you're older, maybe it's all of those things, or something entirely different none of us here have thought of.
The cause is not, in the end relevant, you still have to deal with the behaviour.
For what it's worth, what worked for me was staying super calm, and having a set script that I practiced so I could stay calm when things got... real.
My script was "Dad I love you very much, but I'm not staying here for you to shout at me. I'm leaving now. We can talk when you're calmer. I love you very much." And then I'd be out of there and refused to engage in anything except a repetition of the script.
Could you develop your own script and exit strategy? I had a variation I used for phone conversations that involved yelling and name calling too: " Dad, I love you very much, but I'm not OK with you shouting at me and calling me names. I'm hanging up now. We can talk again when you're calmer."
In both instances I had to say it over him, like a calm, kind robot, and ignore interjections, fist waving, etc.
It didn't make it hurt less that my Dad behaved like this, but it did get me out of the situation without escalating things.
And he did eventually calm down. Until, you know, the next time. He would also just pretend nothing had happened. Face saving maybe? I have no idea honestly, but I knew it was going to be unrealistic for me to expect an apology. I was OK with this actually - he only had the capacity he had, you know? And it didn't include apologies, not matter how deserving I was of one. YMMV.
Good luck, it's such a challenging thing to deal with. I hope you are being kind to yourself, especailly as your Dad is not being kind to you.
posted by t0astie at 8:35 PM on July 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
The cause is not, in the end relevant, you still have to deal with the behaviour.
For what it's worth, what worked for me was staying super calm, and having a set script that I practiced so I could stay calm when things got... real.
My script was "Dad I love you very much, but I'm not staying here for you to shout at me. I'm leaving now. We can talk when you're calmer. I love you very much." And then I'd be out of there and refused to engage in anything except a repetition of the script.
Could you develop your own script and exit strategy? I had a variation I used for phone conversations that involved yelling and name calling too: " Dad, I love you very much, but I'm not OK with you shouting at me and calling me names. I'm hanging up now. We can talk again when you're calmer."
In both instances I had to say it over him, like a calm, kind robot, and ignore interjections, fist waving, etc.
It didn't make it hurt less that my Dad behaved like this, but it did get me out of the situation without escalating things.
And he did eventually calm down. Until, you know, the next time. He would also just pretend nothing had happened. Face saving maybe? I have no idea honestly, but I knew it was going to be unrealistic for me to expect an apology. I was OK with this actually - he only had the capacity he had, you know? And it didn't include apologies, not matter how deserving I was of one. YMMV.
Good luck, it's such a challenging thing to deal with. I hope you are being kind to yourself, especailly as your Dad is not being kind to you.
posted by t0astie at 8:35 PM on July 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
I believe there is an underlying condition causing this behavior but I don't have a name for it.
I do, especially when it's combined with this:
He is rude to women he perceives as controlling or too loud, or to anyone he believes is not his equal.
It's called misogyny. Sadly, there's no real cure for it. A counsellor might help him with his grief, which might be affecting his mood and his self-control, but there is no cure for his underlying value system.
He's very lucky to have a daughter who is willing to see his good side even in the face of this kind of behaviour. Others e given excellent advice about setting boundaries. In similar circumstances, I've said something along the lines of "I love you but I am not willing to be treated this way" and then ended the interaction. You have to keep doing it consistently, over and over, until they get the message that they can't act certain ways, or say certain things, without losing something in that moment. Don't debate your actions with him. Just create a pattern that his brain will grasp: if he yells, or says something mean, you hang up the phone/leave/get him his coat/turn the car around, or whatever.
I'd also recommend the book Down Girl for some insights into the ways misogyny is expressed in everyday life. It's an eye-opener.
posted by rpfields at 8:56 PM on July 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
I do, especially when it's combined with this:
He is rude to women he perceives as controlling or too loud, or to anyone he believes is not his equal.
It's called misogyny. Sadly, there's no real cure for it. A counsellor might help him with his grief, which might be affecting his mood and his self-control, but there is no cure for his underlying value system.
He's very lucky to have a daughter who is willing to see his good side even in the face of this kind of behaviour. Others e given excellent advice about setting boundaries. In similar circumstances, I've said something along the lines of "I love you but I am not willing to be treated this way" and then ended the interaction. You have to keep doing it consistently, over and over, until they get the message that they can't act certain ways, or say certain things, without losing something in that moment. Don't debate your actions with him. Just create a pattern that his brain will grasp: if he yells, or says something mean, you hang up the phone/leave/get him his coat/turn the car around, or whatever.
I'd also recommend the book Down Girl for some insights into the ways misogyny is expressed in everyday life. It's an eye-opener.
posted by rpfields at 8:56 PM on July 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
He hates loud noises and crowds, I believe they overstimulate him, he can't handle them, runs for the hills. He is rude to women he perceives as controlling or too loud, or to anyone he believes is not his equal. He tends to be very logical (as opposed to creative, or emotional) in his thinking, and is capable of obsessive focus. He logically understands that people, even his own children, have sex, but in reality he seems to find the idea of sex abhorrent, in part I believe due to religious conditioning. It makes for some very childish exchanges, and sometimes, I have the feeling I am looking at an angry little boy in a grown man's body.
the bolded statement is in direct contradiction to everything else you say about him, it's clearly not accurate. is that what he says and believes about himself? but you explain in detail how false it is.
You don't have to cut off contact forever in order to refuse abusive contact. when he sounds like an angry boy is when you hang up the phone or walk out the door, immediately. you can come back later and be your familiar pleasant self for as long as he's tolerable. when he stops, just leave again. you'll have to do this many times.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:57 PM on July 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
the bolded statement is in direct contradiction to everything else you say about him, it's clearly not accurate. is that what he says and believes about himself? but you explain in detail how false it is.
You don't have to cut off contact forever in order to refuse abusive contact. when he sounds like an angry boy is when you hang up the phone or walk out the door, immediately. you can come back later and be your familiar pleasant self for as long as he's tolerable. when he stops, just leave again. you'll have to do this many times.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:57 PM on July 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Clarification: "logical" is meant as, he had a career in science and was highly skilled at it. He loves to know how systems work, math, machines. I don't mean his behavior is logical.
I have found Metafilter helpful in pointing me in different directions when faced with issues such as this, which is why I asked, knowing full well you are all strangers and that I have to temper what I read here against what is happening real-time. Depression is something I hadn't thought of, for example, though out in Internetland this may seem obvious. He responds well to facts, so research on my part may help me to convince him to see his doctor regarding depression. Just saying "Dad, I think you're depressed," isn't enough.
He is often misogynistic, unfortunately, so if anyone has more book suggestions on that topic, please recommend. The suggestions above are now on my list.
Thank you all.
posted by Armed Only With Hubris at 3:23 AM on July 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have found Metafilter helpful in pointing me in different directions when faced with issues such as this, which is why I asked, knowing full well you are all strangers and that I have to temper what I read here against what is happening real-time. Depression is something I hadn't thought of, for example, though out in Internetland this may seem obvious. He responds well to facts, so research on my part may help me to convince him to see his doctor regarding depression. Just saying "Dad, I think you're depressed," isn't enough.
He is often misogynistic, unfortunately, so if anyone has more book suggestions on that topic, please recommend. The suggestions above are now on my list.
Thank you all.
posted by Armed Only With Hubris at 3:23 AM on July 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
mini strokes can cause behavioural and mood changes in older adults.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:17 AM on July 17, 2018
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:17 AM on July 17, 2018
Could you try something like a swear jar? When he unthinkingly snaps at you, or in any way makes you feel one-down, he has to put a dollar in? It would drain out the drama, but still make him acknowledge the slight. And the money could go to a cause you both support.
If it works.
posted by Baeria at 2:06 PM on July 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
If it works.
posted by Baeria at 2:06 PM on July 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
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As far as anything diagnostic, you can certainly suggest to him to get some therapy - having his partner die is a pretty significant life event, for starters - and he can investigate this, but it's not on you to figure it out.
posted by bile and syntax at 4:32 PM on July 16, 2018 [16 favorites]