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July 16, 2018 9:03 AM Subscribe
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As a recent divorcee who has only ever been in one romantic relationship in my life, I am basically 36 going on 13.
I started dating this guy about four months ago. We're both pretty clear that this is for funsies, nothing serious, no L word, and not even the R word. However we're both constitutionally incapable of dating multiple people at once so we're exclusive. I like him, he likes me, the sex is good, and there's more than just sex to the deal because we enjoy each other's company. So far so uncomplicated.
Under the surface, there is something brewing.
1) I've had to necessarily tell him a little about my personal history with sexual assault because sex with him would not have worked otherwise. He took it well in the moment: kind, thoughtful, and comforting. A week or so after that, we had one conversation when I asked him if I freaked him out by telling him, and he said, "To be honest, yeah, but I'll deal with it." I said, "Okay, let me know how you feel when you're done thinking about it." But there has been no mention of it since. Been three months now. I find myself having Feelings - anxiety that he's still freaked out? Exactly what about it freaks him out? Is he just severely lacking in emotional intelligence? He's 40 yrs old, ffs, is it some earth shaking idea to him that his partner was sexually assaulted? I used to think the ball is in his court, but now I think maybe it's actually a grenade, and I wonder if it will explode? Or has he defused it? It IS in his court though. Surely it's not right that I must do the emotional labor of continually bringing this shit up to know where he's at wrt to it. I am not and never have been shy or reticent with this topic - I did my best to convey both its seriousness and the fact that I have it under control, I don't need him to take on any emotional burden for it outside of being okay with the knowledge. I guess I'm feeling both anxious and frustrated at his not mentioning this ever again after admitting he was freaked out by it. Resentful that it seems to be falling to me to bring it up AGAIN if I want an update.
2) How do casual relationships even work? I read the above paragraph I just wrote and I am beginning to think I am overloading this thing with feelings that are inappropriate or too involved for "casual." Part of the problem is I HAVE NO CLUE. Part of the problem is also that we aren't just fuck-buddies, there's an actual relationship here which he pursues and contributes to just as much as I do. What is this shit? Oh my god. How is this so confusing?? I need to do way instain non-boyfriend, or something like that??
As a recent divorcee who has only ever been in one romantic relationship in my life, I am basically 36 going on 13.
I started dating this guy about four months ago. We're both pretty clear that this is for funsies, nothing serious, no L word, and not even the R word. However we're both constitutionally incapable of dating multiple people at once so we're exclusive. I like him, he likes me, the sex is good, and there's more than just sex to the deal because we enjoy each other's company. So far so uncomplicated.
Under the surface, there is something brewing.
1) I've had to necessarily tell him a little about my personal history with sexual assault because sex with him would not have worked otherwise. He took it well in the moment: kind, thoughtful, and comforting. A week or so after that, we had one conversation when I asked him if I freaked him out by telling him, and he said, "To be honest, yeah, but I'll deal with it." I said, "Okay, let me know how you feel when you're done thinking about it." But there has been no mention of it since. Been three months now. I find myself having Feelings - anxiety that he's still freaked out? Exactly what about it freaks him out? Is he just severely lacking in emotional intelligence? He's 40 yrs old, ffs, is it some earth shaking idea to him that his partner was sexually assaulted? I used to think the ball is in his court, but now I think maybe it's actually a grenade, and I wonder if it will explode? Or has he defused it? It IS in his court though. Surely it's not right that I must do the emotional labor of continually bringing this shit up to know where he's at wrt to it. I am not and never have been shy or reticent with this topic - I did my best to convey both its seriousness and the fact that I have it under control, I don't need him to take on any emotional burden for it outside of being okay with the knowledge. I guess I'm feeling both anxious and frustrated at his not mentioning this ever again after admitting he was freaked out by it. Resentful that it seems to be falling to me to bring it up AGAIN if I want an update.
2) How do casual relationships even work? I read the above paragraph I just wrote and I am beginning to think I am overloading this thing with feelings that are inappropriate or too involved for "casual." Part of the problem is I HAVE NO CLUE. Part of the problem is also that we aren't just fuck-buddies, there's an actual relationship here which he pursues and contributes to just as much as I do. What is this shit? Oh my god. How is this so confusing?? I need to do way instain non-boyfriend, or something like that??
I'm sorry about your assault, so I don't mean to be insensitive in being blunt, but I have to get offline quickly, so in few words: he said he'd deal with it. To me that means, he'll deal with it. Especially since you're dealing with a 40 year old. By that age, people are pretty good at predicting what they will and won't be able to deal with. You said to let you know when he's done thinking about it. Can anyone ever be truly done thinking about something like that? Maybe he's done a lot of thinking and isn't freaking out but also doesn't feel done thinking about it.
What you didn't say, for instance, was "okay I'm going to worry about how you're feeling about this until you confirm that you're okay with it, so give me some reassurance as soon as you can, please." I don't mean to be harsh, but just taking all the words that you have relayed to us here on their face, it sounds like you're the one who is wanting to know how he's feeling, so it's not inappropriate or an imbalance of emotional labor for you to ask, or at least for you to clarify what it is that you need from him.
I don't think it's necessarily overburdening this FWB thing to want to know that he's not internally still freaked out when you're making out; that seems totally normal. But this does seem like a recipe for long term regret or confusion if it goes on past its expiration date: "We're both pretty clear that this is for funsies, nothing serious... However we're both constitutionally incapable of dating multiple people at once so we're exclusive." If this is a thing you're doing as part of the divorce transition, it could be really helpful and healthy. But at some point when you start wanting to have a real relationship, I'd stop exclusively doing something that you know is not leading anywhere.
posted by salvia at 9:25 AM on July 16, 2018 [15 favorites]
What you didn't say, for instance, was "okay I'm going to worry about how you're feeling about this until you confirm that you're okay with it, so give me some reassurance as soon as you can, please." I don't mean to be harsh, but just taking all the words that you have relayed to us here on their face, it sounds like you're the one who is wanting to know how he's feeling, so it's not inappropriate or an imbalance of emotional labor for you to ask, or at least for you to clarify what it is that you need from him.
I don't think it's necessarily overburdening this FWB thing to want to know that he's not internally still freaked out when you're making out; that seems totally normal. But this does seem like a recipe for long term regret or confusion if it goes on past its expiration date: "We're both pretty clear that this is for funsies, nothing serious... However we're both constitutionally incapable of dating multiple people at once so we're exclusive." If this is a thing you're doing as part of the divorce transition, it could be really helpful and healthy. But at some point when you start wanting to have a real relationship, I'd stop exclusively doing something that you know is not leading anywhere.
posted by salvia at 9:25 AM on July 16, 2018 [15 favorites]
Best answer: Not knowing either of you ---
1/ Based on nothing, most likely he doesn't feel your past history is interfering with your current good relationship and that he's just dropped the subject. I know you told him "let me know..." but you can't blame him if he simply hasn't anything to say and has decided not to resurrect the topic.
2/ Your relationship sounds good. I can't interpret "do way instain non-boyfriend" in your question. If this means you're thinking of breaking up with him over this, then I'd urge a little more communication before you make that decision.
If there are specific words you're looking for from him, then I'd urge you to let him know, like "so we're OK, this is all good, right?" and then drop it.
posted by JimN2TAW at 9:26 AM on July 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
1/ Based on nothing, most likely he doesn't feel your past history is interfering with your current good relationship and that he's just dropped the subject. I know you told him "let me know..." but you can't blame him if he simply hasn't anything to say and has decided not to resurrect the topic.
2/ Your relationship sounds good. I can't interpret "do way instain non-boyfriend" in your question. If this means you're thinking of breaking up with him over this, then I'd urge a little more communication before you make that decision.
If there are specific words you're looking for from him, then I'd urge you to let him know, like "so we're OK, this is all good, right?" and then drop it.
posted by JimN2TAW at 9:26 AM on July 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
It's highly possible that he was a little freaked out at first, processed, dealt with it (as he said he would), and forgot about it. It sounds like your sex life is happy and healthy, yes? There were no negative consequences to telling him about your abuse? I think this is simply a misunderstanding - you wanted him to circle back and TELL you he's ok with the knowledge, and he probably feels he's SHOWING you he's ok with it by moving on and having a normal, healthy relationship with you.
posted by yawper at 9:28 AM on July 16, 2018 [37 favorites]
posted by yawper at 9:28 AM on July 16, 2018 [37 favorites]
This doesn't sound that casual - opening up to each other, and being exclusive. Perhaps it would be easier to go with being girlfriend and boyfriend but just acknowledge you don't see it escalating beyond to cohabitation or marriage?
posted by JonB at 9:35 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by JonB at 9:35 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I said, "Okay, let me know how you feel when you're done thinking about it."
This could have easily been interpreted as "Okay, let me know if you feel uncomfortable when you're done thinking about it."
I think your emotions are high, for a lot of good and valid reasons, but if there has been 3 months of good sex after this disclosure, it's certainly possible that he's put it out of his mind. It doesn't mean he's forgotten, or doesn't care, but rather that he's not seeing it as a barrier to anything so it hasn't come up.
I think you can follow-up on this point, but I wouldn't frame it as: I've been waiting to hear from you for 3 months (even if that's true). Just mention that it's making you feel funny that you brought it up, and it seemed that he had some emotional processing to do, and you feel like the conversation is unresolved. Would he help you understand what he's thinking?
posted by cranberrymonger at 9:37 AM on July 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
This could have easily been interpreted as "Okay, let me know if you feel uncomfortable when you're done thinking about it."
I think your emotions are high, for a lot of good and valid reasons, but if there has been 3 months of good sex after this disclosure, it's certainly possible that he's put it out of his mind. It doesn't mean he's forgotten, or doesn't care, but rather that he's not seeing it as a barrier to anything so it hasn't come up.
I think you can follow-up on this point, but I wouldn't frame it as: I've been waiting to hear from you for 3 months (even if that's true). Just mention that it's making you feel funny that you brought it up, and it seemed that he had some emotional processing to do, and you feel like the conversation is unresolved. Would he help you understand what he's thinking?
posted by cranberrymonger at 9:37 AM on July 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
1- Does he treat you any differently since you told him about your sexual assault? If not, then I think you need to assume that he has "defused" the "grenade" of this information. You should also keep in mind that he may be unsure about whether you want him to bring this up, and the best way to do so.
It's totally fine if you need some verbal reassurance about all this, but you have to ask for it. It's unacceptable to be pissed at him for not providing reassurance that you haven't explicitly asked him for. Also, sometimes you have to ask for things more than once, because your partner will give you what they heard you ask for but it's not quite right -- just normal fine-tuning stuff.
2- You have to talk to each other! You have to say, "Look, I'm having #FEELINGS and I'd like to talk about how things are going and where we see them going next." It's really, really hard, and I'm not trying to minimize that, but no relationship, casual or serious, will work without this kind of communication.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 9:38 AM on July 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
It's totally fine if you need some verbal reassurance about all this, but you have to ask for it. It's unacceptable to be pissed at him for not providing reassurance that you haven't explicitly asked him for. Also, sometimes you have to ask for things more than once, because your partner will give you what they heard you ask for but it's not quite right -- just normal fine-tuning stuff.
2- You have to talk to each other! You have to say, "Look, I'm having #FEELINGS and I'd like to talk about how things are going and where we see them going next." It's really, really hard, and I'm not trying to minimize that, but no relationship, casual or serious, will work without this kind of communication.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 9:38 AM on July 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
How do casual relationships even work? ... I HAVE NO CLUE.
It might help you to hear that many of us who have more experience and confidence frequently look at other people's relationships and think to ourselves, "WTF is happening there?" In other words, there's no answer to your question. Everybody's different. If you subscribe to a particular social model (like Catholicism) then you can turn to those traditions for some aspects, but even still, there will be paths you'll need to clear for yourselves.
posted by cribcage at 9:41 AM on July 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
It might help you to hear that many of us who have more experience and confidence frequently look at other people's relationships and think to ourselves, "WTF is happening there?" In other words, there's no answer to your question. Everybody's different. If you subscribe to a particular social model (like Catholicism) then you can turn to those traditions for some aspects, but even still, there will be paths you'll need to clear for yourselves.
posted by cribcage at 9:41 AM on July 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
You're going to have to ask him. If there's a problem, it really is up to him to tell you. But if there's no problem for him and you need to hear that, then ask. Silent resentment is really not constructive at all. You've been seeing him for four months; if this is the first time you're feeling like you have to bear more than your share of communication responsibility, then that's okay. If there's a pattern already, then you have a different issue to solve. Even though it's just a "fun" arrangement, it's all right for you to ask for the kind of communication you need.
posted by wryly at 9:41 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by wryly at 9:41 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I asked him if I freaked him out by telling him, and he said, "To be honest, yeah, but I'll deal with it."
If my beloved disclosed a history of sexual assault to me, I would also be initially freaked out. Not because having been sexually assaulted means there's something wrong with her, but because how dare that fucker have done that to her and where does he live because I now have an overwhelming desire to tase, ziptie, burn and cut him until he dies, and I am civilized enough to get freaked out by finding myself wanting to inflict that kind of violence. It would take some time for the revenge fantasies to settle down.
I said, "Okay, let me know how you feel when you're done thinking about it." But there has been no mention of it since. Been three months now.
So, two possibilities: either it's still something he thinks about when he's with you, which means according to your request it's not yet time to tell you how he feels; or he is in fact done thinking about it, which means it's not something it's going to occur to him to bring up. in other words, his failure to tell you where's he's at with it is pretty much inherent in your request as expressed. If you want a status report, I think it's reasonable to ask for one.
posted by flabdablet at 9:42 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
If my beloved disclosed a history of sexual assault to me, I would also be initially freaked out. Not because having been sexually assaulted means there's something wrong with her, but because how dare that fucker have done that to her and where does he live because I now have an overwhelming desire to tase, ziptie, burn and cut him until he dies, and I am civilized enough to get freaked out by finding myself wanting to inflict that kind of violence. It would take some time for the revenge fantasies to settle down.
I said, "Okay, let me know how you feel when you're done thinking about it." But there has been no mention of it since. Been three months now.
So, two possibilities: either it's still something he thinks about when he's with you, which means according to your request it's not yet time to tell you how he feels; or he is in fact done thinking about it, which means it's not something it's going to occur to him to bring up. in other words, his failure to tell you where's he's at with it is pretty much inherent in your request as expressed. If you want a status report, I think it's reasonable to ask for one.
posted by flabdablet at 9:42 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't need him to take on any emotional burden for it outside of being okay with the knowledge. I guess I'm feeling both anxious and frustrated at his not mentioning this ever again after admitting he was freaked out by it. Resentful that it seems to be falling to me to bring it up AGAIN if I want an update.
I feel like you were looking for and possibly expecting some sort of acknowledgement later "Oh hey I just want you to know that I heard you and I care. Here to talk when you need/want to" from him. But to me a guy you're in a relationship with who hasn't seemed to change his attitude/behavior after you told him about your assault seems pretty normative for what I would expect. Which, hey, if it's not for you that is also fine! But you seem to be acting like he's expecting you to be a mind-reader or otherwise putting something on you, whereas you're the one who seems to be desiring something from him and are getting increasingly frustrated with him which seems unwarranted and sounds, to me, like self-sabotage.
So I agree with cranberrymonger, to me it sounded more like you were saying "Hey let me know how you feel or if there's something else you'd like to talk about/know/etc" and he's just... settled and doesn't have much more to say. SO if you have something else to say, you have to mention that. Put another way, I think one reminder "Hey there's something I'd still like to talk about" one time is not an overwhelming amount of emotional labor.
I do feel like you're putting a lot of weight on something that is supposed to be casual. I can totally get why you're exclusive and don't think that is necessarily totally contradictory with "casual" but spending this much time about one wrinkle in an otherwise-pretty-good relationship seems to sort of be sucking the casual out of it. To me casual is you make your own peace with the ups and downs of the person you are with more than having "But what about our relationship??" discussions. Obviously everyone's mileage varies here, but you might want to think about what it is you do want out of this because it may be more emotional attention than he thinks a casual relationship should have? Or not. But you won't know until you ask him.
posted by jessamyn at 9:47 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I feel like you were looking for and possibly expecting some sort of acknowledgement later "Oh hey I just want you to know that I heard you and I care. Here to talk when you need/want to" from him. But to me a guy you're in a relationship with who hasn't seemed to change his attitude/behavior after you told him about your assault seems pretty normative for what I would expect. Which, hey, if it's not for you that is also fine! But you seem to be acting like he's expecting you to be a mind-reader or otherwise putting something on you, whereas you're the one who seems to be desiring something from him and are getting increasingly frustrated with him which seems unwarranted and sounds, to me, like self-sabotage.
So I agree with cranberrymonger, to me it sounded more like you were saying "Hey let me know how you feel or if there's something else you'd like to talk about/know/etc" and he's just... settled and doesn't have much more to say. SO if you have something else to say, you have to mention that. Put another way, I think one reminder "Hey there's something I'd still like to talk about" one time is not an overwhelming amount of emotional labor.
I do feel like you're putting a lot of weight on something that is supposed to be casual. I can totally get why you're exclusive and don't think that is necessarily totally contradictory with "casual" but spending this much time about one wrinkle in an otherwise-pretty-good relationship seems to sort of be sucking the casual out of it. To me casual is you make your own peace with the ups and downs of the person you are with more than having "But what about our relationship??" discussions. Obviously everyone's mileage varies here, but you might want to think about what it is you do want out of this because it may be more emotional attention than he thinks a casual relationship should have? Or not. But you won't know until you ask him.
posted by jessamyn at 9:47 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Ah okay. A couple of pieces of information that may be relevant which I left out:
1. He does treat me differently since I told him. He seems more careful and tense and suuuuper quiet when there's, say, something we're watching that's about sexual assault. He was also much less relaxed in general but that is wearing off.
2. There was one time when I happened to refer to sexual assault in another context altogether (politics, #metoo) and again, he went all quiet immediately, suddenly, conspicuously. It's hard to get over the feeling that this topic is now off limits and that's frustrating and goddamn it. That's kind of a dick move.
(This is good, writing this out is helping me clarify my own thoughts about it.)
posted by MiraK at 9:47 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
1. He does treat me differently since I told him. He seems more careful and tense and suuuuper quiet when there's, say, something we're watching that's about sexual assault. He was also much less relaxed in general but that is wearing off.
2. There was one time when I happened to refer to sexual assault in another context altogether (politics, #metoo) and again, he went all quiet immediately, suddenly, conspicuously. It's hard to get over the feeling that this topic is now off limits and that's frustrating and goddamn it. That's kind of a dick move.
(This is good, writing this out is helping me clarify my own thoughts about it.)
posted by MiraK at 9:47 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's hard to get over the feeling that this topic is now off limits and that's frustrating and goddamn it.
I would bet money that there's a fair bit of that very thing inside his head as well, if that helps.
posted by flabdablet at 9:58 AM on July 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
I would bet money that there's a fair bit of that very thing inside his head as well, if that helps.
posted by flabdablet at 9:58 AM on July 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's also a pretty strong indication that he is not, in fact, done thinking about it. Which, again, it's completely fair to ask him where he's at with it, but not fair to ding him for failing to bring it up himself, since that would be explicitly not what you asked for in the first place.
posted by flabdablet at 10:00 AM on July 16, 2018
posted by flabdablet at 10:00 AM on July 16, 2018
There was one time when I happened to refer to sexual assault in another context altogether (politics, #metoo) and again, he went all quiet immediately, suddenly, conspicuously. It's hard to get over the feeling that this topic is now off limits and that's frustrating and goddamn it. That's kind of a dick move.
I find it very difficult to discuss the #metoo movement with a woman (straight, white dude here) because it's a very personal issue, but it's not my personal issue. Well, okay, it sort of is, because men can be assaulted, too (Terry Crews, for example), and most men known someone who has been assaulted or otherwise put in an uncomfortable position, but it's mostly women who are the victims and while men can (and should) be allies, the situation is a little like the pig and the chicken opening up a restaurant called Ham and Eggs. The chicken is involved. The pig is committed. I can be involved in the issue, but I can't be committed in the same way.
So I don't really know how to approach this. Am I just listening, or is that too passive? If I'm too active, expressing my own opinion, then am I taking over the issue and making it mine? What is the right balance?
For an issue where we are both equally involved there isn't the same problem. It doesn't matter if I don't show as much support, because you know it affects me just as much as it affects you. It doesn't matter if, in a conversation, I make it about me, because it is about me some of the time. But this is an asymmetric situation and it's hard to manage (particularly if you overthink it, which it's pretty clear that I do).
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:03 AM on July 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
I find it very difficult to discuss the #metoo movement with a woman (straight, white dude here) because it's a very personal issue, but it's not my personal issue. Well, okay, it sort of is, because men can be assaulted, too (Terry Crews, for example), and most men known someone who has been assaulted or otherwise put in an uncomfortable position, but it's mostly women who are the victims and while men can (and should) be allies, the situation is a little like the pig and the chicken opening up a restaurant called Ham and Eggs. The chicken is involved. The pig is committed. I can be involved in the issue, but I can't be committed in the same way.
So I don't really know how to approach this. Am I just listening, or is that too passive? If I'm too active, expressing my own opinion, then am I taking over the issue and making it mine? What is the right balance?
For an issue where we are both equally involved there isn't the same problem. It doesn't matter if I don't show as much support, because you know it affects me just as much as it affects you. It doesn't matter if, in a conversation, I make it about me, because it is about me some of the time. But this is an asymmetric situation and it's hard to manage (particularly if you overthink it, which it's pretty clear that I do).
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:03 AM on July 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
As for the sexual assault, he probably doesn't feel that it's desirable or appropriate to have some kind of lengthy discussion about it with someone who he is explicitly just having casual sex with, unless she herself thinks it's necessary. But, as others have said, you won't know until you talk to him about it. If you need more from him, you have to let him know.
Part of the problem is I HAVE NO CLUE. Part of the problem is also that we aren't just fuck-buddies, there's an actual relationship here which he pursues and contributes to just as much as I do.
If you told this guy that you were only into casual fun and weren't looking for love, then, no, you do not have an "actual relationship" as most adults would describe it. You said you didn't want a relationship! (I mean, I'm assuming that's what "r-word" means here.) So you have a f-buddy. Which is fine if that's all you want. but it really sounds like you're secretly hoping to back into a relationship ("how girl get boyfrand"). You're going to blow your fingers off with this approach. Being the "cool girl" who isn't "needy" enough to be looking for an actual relationship is a grimly common trope in the media, but it isn't going to get you anywhere, except blindsided when Casual Dude decides to casually move on.
You can have your relationship on any terms you want, if the other person will agree, but if you aren't clear on the terms, out loud, you are going to end up unhappy. Use your words. Avoid the baby-talk.
posted by praemunire at 10:05 AM on July 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Part of the problem is I HAVE NO CLUE. Part of the problem is also that we aren't just fuck-buddies, there's an actual relationship here which he pursues and contributes to just as much as I do.
If you told this guy that you were only into casual fun and weren't looking for love, then, no, you do not have an "actual relationship" as most adults would describe it. You said you didn't want a relationship! (I mean, I'm assuming that's what "r-word" means here.) So you have a f-buddy. Which is fine if that's all you want. but it really sounds like you're secretly hoping to back into a relationship ("how girl get boyfrand"). You're going to blow your fingers off with this approach. Being the "cool girl" who isn't "needy" enough to be looking for an actual relationship is a grimly common trope in the media, but it isn't going to get you anywhere, except blindsided when Casual Dude decides to casually move on.
You can have your relationship on any terms you want, if the other person will agree, but if you aren't clear on the terms, out loud, you are going to end up unhappy. Use your words. Avoid the baby-talk.
posted by praemunire at 10:05 AM on July 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
It sounds like your history isn’t having a significant negative impact on his relationship with you, or your sex life with him. If I were him I’d be hesitant to open up that discussion without clear signs from you that you want to talk about it, since it’s reads to me as significant and meaningful and hurtful to you. I’d be scared of crossing boundaries to just bring it up, and would assume you didn’t want to talk about it, unless you brought it up. Not sure if that’s what people would agree is healthy, but that’s how I ( mid-30s straight dude who is on Metafilter) would feel.
If you want to discuss it more, I think you are within your rights to ask him how he’s doing about it, but I wouldn’t assume that things are terrible.
Along the same lines, if you want more commitment, I’d open that conversation. He won’t know what you want unless you tell him! He may not want it, and there is that risk, but to some extent I would say rip the bandaid off quickly.
posted by Alterscape at 10:20 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
If you want to discuss it more, I think you are within your rights to ask him how he’s doing about it, but I wouldn’t assume that things are terrible.
Along the same lines, if you want more commitment, I’d open that conversation. He won’t know what you want unless you tell him! He may not want it, and there is that risk, but to some extent I would say rip the bandaid off quickly.
posted by Alterscape at 10:20 AM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I swear by the Demons of ThreadSitting this will my last clarification, but here's the thing: I genuinely do not know how maybe/maybe-not casual relationships work. If we were fuck buddies, I could happily deal but neither of us want that (we've talked about it). We don't want to be Officially Boyfriend and Girlfriend (in spite of my joke up there), because this isn't necessarily leading anywhere and this isn't about providing emotional support or doing emotional labor (again, it's something we've spelled out in conversations).
But I feel cornered into doing this emotional labor, hence my frustration. I want to be .... "natural"? "Myself"? I want to not feel constrained by his issues surrounding this, I don't want to walk on eggshells if I just want to say something about #metoo and hear back a regular human-person response rather than bzzzt-crackle-fizzz uncomfortable silence from his end. Be casual, sure, but be a casual HUMAN, please.
What I hear loud and clear from this thread is I need to talk about it if I am uncomfortable with it. But the cues he's giving me are all of the "this is weird for me, let's not touch this" variety. So it seems like me opening a conversation would impinge on his comfort, and possibly make it very clear to me that he's not capable of being human about this subject because of how freaked out he is by it, and so I'd break up with him. Ugh.
Do I really want to hasten the end? Circle ye back to "what is casual relationship omg." Que sera sera, I guess.
posted by MiraK at 10:25 AM on July 16, 2018
But I feel cornered into doing this emotional labor, hence my frustration. I want to be .... "natural"? "Myself"? I want to not feel constrained by his issues surrounding this, I don't want to walk on eggshells if I just want to say something about #metoo and hear back a regular human-person response rather than bzzzt-crackle-fizzz uncomfortable silence from his end. Be casual, sure, but be a casual HUMAN, please.
What I hear loud and clear from this thread is I need to talk about it if I am uncomfortable with it. But the cues he's giving me are all of the "this is weird for me, let's not touch this" variety. So it seems like me opening a conversation would impinge on his comfort, and possibly make it very clear to me that he's not capable of being human about this subject because of how freaked out he is by it, and so I'd break up with him. Ugh.
Do I really want to hasten the end? Circle ye back to "what is casual relationship omg." Que sera sera, I guess.
posted by MiraK at 10:25 AM on July 16, 2018
Best answer: But the cues he's giving me are all of the "this is weird for me, let's not touch this" variety. So it seems like me opening a conversation would impinge on his comfort
There's nothing good about sexual assault. It's the kind of thing that will impinge on the comfort of everybody it touches for a very long time. You're absolutely not required to put his discomfort around discussing the topic ahead of your discomfort around his apparent unwillingness to do so. His discomfort is his job to manage. There is no upside at all in your taking on the emotional labor of managing it for him. If you want to discuss sexual assault with him, just do.
and possibly make it very clear to me that he's not capable of being human about this subject because of how freaked out he is by it, and so I'd break up with him. Ugh.
That's a pretty standard worst-case what-if anxiety trope; when that kind of thing turns up inside my head, I dispute the crap out of it until it goes away.
posted by flabdablet at 10:33 AM on July 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
There's nothing good about sexual assault. It's the kind of thing that will impinge on the comfort of everybody it touches for a very long time. You're absolutely not required to put his discomfort around discussing the topic ahead of your discomfort around his apparent unwillingness to do so. His discomfort is his job to manage. There is no upside at all in your taking on the emotional labor of managing it for him. If you want to discuss sexual assault with him, just do.
and possibly make it very clear to me that he's not capable of being human about this subject because of how freaked out he is by it, and so I'd break up with him. Ugh.
That's a pretty standard worst-case what-if anxiety trope; when that kind of thing turns up inside my head, I dispute the crap out of it until it goes away.
posted by flabdablet at 10:33 AM on July 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
I genuinely do not know how maybe/maybe-not casual relationships work.
Maybe/maybe-not casual relationships work best when there's no attempt made to nail them into any particular definitional box, and as little time as possible spent on worrying how they're going to turn out later. Sometimes they run their course and turn into longstanding platonic friendships; sometimes they lead to acrimony and a strong desire never to see the other person again; sometimes they last until death do them part; sometimes they just fade away. Best way toward a good outcome is to try to avoid worrying about the future of the relationship and concentrate on its present.
Like any relationship of any kind, they work best when the people involved habitually seek a good-faith and generous reading of each other's communications, whether expressed verbally or by body language or by actions, and to be as clear as possible with each other about what they need and expect from each other. If that means asking for tricky things in words, then that's what needs to happen.
Relationships with any degree of intimacy work best when the people involved are willing to be vulnerable enough to take emotional risks with each other, and when they care more about each other than they do about what specific label to put on their relationship when talking about it, either between themselves or with other people.
posted by flabdablet at 10:46 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Maybe/maybe-not casual relationships work best when there's no attempt made to nail them into any particular definitional box, and as little time as possible spent on worrying how they're going to turn out later. Sometimes they run their course and turn into longstanding platonic friendships; sometimes they lead to acrimony and a strong desire never to see the other person again; sometimes they last until death do them part; sometimes they just fade away. Best way toward a good outcome is to try to avoid worrying about the future of the relationship and concentrate on its present.
Like any relationship of any kind, they work best when the people involved habitually seek a good-faith and generous reading of each other's communications, whether expressed verbally or by body language or by actions, and to be as clear as possible with each other about what they need and expect from each other. If that means asking for tricky things in words, then that's what needs to happen.
Relationships with any degree of intimacy work best when the people involved are willing to be vulnerable enough to take emotional risks with each other, and when they care more about each other than they do about what specific label to put on their relationship when talking about it, either between themselves or with other people.
posted by flabdablet at 10:46 AM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Your subject line for this Ask is "how to form a relationship", and your main question is "how to get a boyfriend". But then you say "We're both pretty clear that this is for funsies, nothing serious, no L word, and not even the R word. So far so uncomplicated. " and proceed to get into a lot of detail which at the end of the day amounts to nothing more than you walking on eggshells around an important issue because it might be a turn off for your lover. So what I see here is, you are doing that thing that we girls do where we twist ourselves into all manner of unnatural pretzel shapes in order to be the proverbial Chill Girl.
I am not trying to minimize the part where you talked to him about sexual assault and he kind of swept it under the rug (personally, I think that was lame). I am just saying that you ARE in a relationship, you HAVE a boyfriend, but you are policing your own thoughts on this matter in order to be a Chill Girl, and it would do you a word of good to reframe this whole deal in terms of what you REALLY want, not how you can tiptoe around some guy's Fragile Feelings as to not to inconvenience his funsies. Once you reframe it, once you internalize that you are the main priority in your own life, that you deserve to be valued as a whole person and not just a sex provider, everything else will fall into place.
And if it doesn't fall into place, good riddance! You know how I just said you deserve to be valued as a whole person? What I really meant was, there are TONS of guys out there who want to be in a relationship if you just give them a chance. Don't waste your time on a dead end relationship, make yourself available to them!
Please google "chill girl", there much wonderful and very insightful discussion around this.
posted by rada at 10:49 AM on July 16, 2018 [27 favorites]
I am not trying to minimize the part where you talked to him about sexual assault and he kind of swept it under the rug (personally, I think that was lame). I am just saying that you ARE in a relationship, you HAVE a boyfriend, but you are policing your own thoughts on this matter in order to be a Chill Girl, and it would do you a word of good to reframe this whole deal in terms of what you REALLY want, not how you can tiptoe around some guy's Fragile Feelings as to not to inconvenience his funsies. Once you reframe it, once you internalize that you are the main priority in your own life, that you deserve to be valued as a whole person and not just a sex provider, everything else will fall into place.
And if it doesn't fall into place, good riddance! You know how I just said you deserve to be valued as a whole person? What I really meant was, there are TONS of guys out there who want to be in a relationship if you just give them a chance. Don't waste your time on a dead end relationship, make yourself available to them!
Please google "chill girl", there much wonderful and very insightful discussion around this.
posted by rada at 10:49 AM on July 16, 2018 [27 favorites]
The casual relationship has never existed for me. Obviously some people can do them, but I think that is reasonably rare. A lot of the time on here and irl I see people lying to themselves about how they want to be in a casual relationship with someone though...usually because they hope that person changes, or changes their mind.
For me, if I like someone enough and am attracted to them enough to have sex with them regularly, usually that means I'd like to pursue a relationship with them. If I'm not that into someone I don't want any type of ongoing sexual relationship with them, casual or otherwise. I've slept with attractive enough, nice enough men who I'm not really into, and just felt wrong and disinterested. I didn't want to see them again, even casually. So I don't want to keep seeing people I'm disinterested in, but I need to be disinterested to keep it casual...I don't think there is anything to be ashamed of here, though often the world tells women they should be able to have 'fun' casual sexual relationships without getting 'feelings' or being 'too serious'. Maybe casual is just wrong for you?
posted by thereader at 12:30 PM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
For me, if I like someone enough and am attracted to them enough to have sex with them regularly, usually that means I'd like to pursue a relationship with them. If I'm not that into someone I don't want any type of ongoing sexual relationship with them, casual or otherwise. I've slept with attractive enough, nice enough men who I'm not really into, and just felt wrong and disinterested. I didn't want to see them again, even casually. So I don't want to keep seeing people I'm disinterested in, but I need to be disinterested to keep it casual...I don't think there is anything to be ashamed of here, though often the world tells women they should be able to have 'fun' casual sexual relationships without getting 'feelings' or being 'too serious'. Maybe casual is just wrong for you?
posted by thereader at 12:30 PM on July 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
It sounds like you are unsettled about his reaction. That's you, not him. If you need to discuss it more, do, otherwise, let it go. You do, in fact, have a Relationship, just not one that you have stated is aimed at Commitment. However, Western women are culturally trained to Love, to want commitment, and much more. It sounds like you may be struggling with that. if you are, that's okay, there's nothing wrong with wanting L and C. Nothing wrong with not wanting L and C, either. Fine to want sex and companionship, or just sex. These are relatively new changes, so the rules/ cultural norms don't exist, though I'll bet if you looked, Miss Manners might have guidance. see also Ask Amy, etc. The best term for your current status is Friends With Benefits, but I still don't think that's a well-defined. Most of all, it's okay to want whatever it is that *you* want, to expect it, to ask for it.
Excellent post title and question.
posted by theora55 at 1:55 PM on July 16, 2018
Excellent post title and question.
posted by theora55 at 1:55 PM on July 16, 2018
This whole "casual sex" concept just doesn't ultimately... I dunno, hang together for me. I mean, you're letting your partner know some very personal things about you. They see you naked. They experience sounds and smells that no one else does. They know what you like sexually. They intermingle body parts with you. They see you with all defenses down, cumming. You could potentially get a disease or pregnant from your time together. They could potentially trigger previous bad feelings from your assault. How is any of that to be done casually?
You're having Feelings because sex is not casual for many people, and I think most especially not for most women. And most ultra-especially not for women who have been sexually traumatized in the past.
Going into a sexual relationship knowing that it won't last forever and won't lead to marriage or kids... ok. Going into it with the idea that no one has to do any emotional labor is unrealistic. Just basic decency says he should make an effort to be caring about the issue you brought up. Never mentioning it again is pretty callous. At the most charitable, it means he is awkward and has bad relationship skills. Less charitably, he doesn't care enough about you to be privy to you at your most vulnerable. To me it's solidly in DTMFA territory, even for a time-limited relationship.
You deserve better than this.
posted by nirblegee at 3:27 PM on July 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
You're having Feelings because sex is not casual for many people, and I think most especially not for most women. And most ultra-especially not for women who have been sexually traumatized in the past.
Going into a sexual relationship knowing that it won't last forever and won't lead to marriage or kids... ok. Going into it with the idea that no one has to do any emotional labor is unrealistic. Just basic decency says he should make an effort to be caring about the issue you brought up. Never mentioning it again is pretty callous. At the most charitable, it means he is awkward and has bad relationship skills. Less charitably, he doesn't care enough about you to be privy to you at your most vulnerable. To me it's solidly in DTMFA territory, even for a time-limited relationship.
You deserve better than this.
posted by nirblegee at 3:27 PM on July 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Best answer: This thing you're doing right now, where you're trying to read his emotions and calibrate your actions based on what you think his emotions are and where you're being super-tip-toe-y around the emotions that you've decided he has -- that is doing emotional labor for him. You are currently doing emotional labor for him because you are taking care of his (perceived, unexpressed) needs, without him even asking for that.
Asking him what's up and making him use his words would be a way of having him do his own emotional labor.
Internally shrugging and going about telling your stories or sharing opinions about #MeToo and ignoring whatever reaction you thing he's having would be a way of avoiding taking on any of his emotional processing.
I think either path would be appropriate, depending on what you're comfortable with. Endless hamster-wheeling about his feelings is not liberating yourself from emotional labor, however.
posted by lazuli at 4:06 PM on July 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
Asking him what's up and making him use his words would be a way of having him do his own emotional labor.
Internally shrugging and going about telling your stories or sharing opinions about #MeToo and ignoring whatever reaction you thing he's having would be a way of avoiding taking on any of his emotional processing.
I think either path would be appropriate, depending on what you're comfortable with. Endless hamster-wheeling about his feelings is not liberating yourself from emotional labor, however.
posted by lazuli at 4:06 PM on July 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
I feel your anxiety here, but I want to gently say that I think your expectation that it’s your lover’s responsibility to bring up the topic of your sexual assault is pretty far from most of the social norms I’m aware of in relationships, even casual ones, when (at least) one partner has heavy past trauma.
If I had to guess, I would say your guy not bringing up your assault, eg giving you complete control over when your assault comes up in conversation, is basic human decency, not a cowardly attempt to avoid a topic that harshes his casual sex or an attempt to make you do emotional labor for him. I can’t actually think of any times I’ve witnessed somebody’s partner— ESPECIALLY a casual partner and not a trusted long term relationship— bring up their sexual assault/abuse history, without explicit prompting from the survivor, without it being a really ugly emotional manipulation move— something done to intentionally trigger someone or to make them feel damaged or crazy. It’s emotionally destabilizing at best, actively triggering at worst, a huge trauma bomb to drop into someone’s day. You’re talking a lot about not having or doing feelings with each other, but even in a no-strings-attached relationship, you at least care enough about the other person enough to not commit that kind of emotional violence against them.
And I think there is a wide perception that prompting someone else to talk about their past abuse/trauma is emotional violence. In relationships where I’ve disclosed trauma, or with people who have trusted me with that knowledge, having 100% control over when our histories are brought up has been a pretty hard boundary, for both me and any partners I’ve had. That wasn’t something either of us had to talk about — it was a social norm that we understood. I know you feel like the ball is in your boyfriend’s court here, but I don’t think he’s mistreating you by not following up: the normal thing to do is what he’s doing, letting you take the lead and set the pace.
Like— I understand you’re spinning your wheels about his guy judging you, but there’s pretty much no situation I can imagine where I would feel OK and not wildly abusive and inappropriate saying something like “So, about the time you were raped,” to a partner and I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume he might be in the same place. If it turns out your worst fears about this are true, and he’s been waiting around to decide whether or not he is too “freaked out” by your being one of many women with an assault history, by all means kick him to the curb. But I will say, that’s not the first or even fifth reason I would ever guess for somebody not initiating a conversation about their sexual partner’s trauma history.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 4:38 PM on July 16, 2018 [22 favorites]
If I had to guess, I would say your guy not bringing up your assault, eg giving you complete control over when your assault comes up in conversation, is basic human decency, not a cowardly attempt to avoid a topic that harshes his casual sex or an attempt to make you do emotional labor for him. I can’t actually think of any times I’ve witnessed somebody’s partner— ESPECIALLY a casual partner and not a trusted long term relationship— bring up their sexual assault/abuse history, without explicit prompting from the survivor, without it being a really ugly emotional manipulation move— something done to intentionally trigger someone or to make them feel damaged or crazy. It’s emotionally destabilizing at best, actively triggering at worst, a huge trauma bomb to drop into someone’s day. You’re talking a lot about not having or doing feelings with each other, but even in a no-strings-attached relationship, you at least care enough about the other person enough to not commit that kind of emotional violence against them.
And I think there is a wide perception that prompting someone else to talk about their past abuse/trauma is emotional violence. In relationships where I’ve disclosed trauma, or with people who have trusted me with that knowledge, having 100% control over when our histories are brought up has been a pretty hard boundary, for both me and any partners I’ve had. That wasn’t something either of us had to talk about — it was a social norm that we understood. I know you feel like the ball is in your boyfriend’s court here, but I don’t think he’s mistreating you by not following up: the normal thing to do is what he’s doing, letting you take the lead and set the pace.
Like— I understand you’re spinning your wheels about his guy judging you, but there’s pretty much no situation I can imagine where I would feel OK and not wildly abusive and inappropriate saying something like “So, about the time you were raped,” to a partner and I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume he might be in the same place. If it turns out your worst fears about this are true, and he’s been waiting around to decide whether or not he is too “freaked out” by your being one of many women with an assault history, by all means kick him to the curb. But I will say, that’s not the first or even fifth reason I would ever guess for somebody not initiating a conversation about their sexual partner’s trauma history.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 4:38 PM on July 16, 2018 [22 favorites]
You're projecting a lot of your own fears and feelings and insecurities about this relationship and your past onto this guy. I think you need to start by being honest with yourself about how much of this is your insecurities speaking. Sexual assault is an uncomfortable topic, and it can be VERY hard to know whether you can bring it up without hurting someone who's been victimized. He likely thinks that bringing it up will force you to relive some very difficult memories, and isn't sure how to proceed. That's ok! He's not a mind reader and he doesn't know what you want. Some women want to talk about it and others want to pretend it never happened. He's not going to know where you stand unless you talk to him. It's okay to say you need something. It's okay to bring it up again. But, first, I think you need to clarify what, exactly, you want out of him here. Do you want him to go back to acting normal? Do you want him to check in sometimes? You're going to get a LOT farther if you're very clear about what you want. That doesn't mean he's doing something wrong--it means he's human and flawed and sometimes it takes work to get on the same page.
I do think some of your framing here is unfair, though. You act like he has his own complex set of issues around it because he's showing some discomfort. I get that you're frustrated, but it IS an uncomfortable topic, and if you haven't been clear about what you want from him, he's not necessarily going to know what to say. You seem to be taking the uncomfortable silence VERY personally, as if it's a personal slight against you (hence "dick move"). Some people just don't know what to say. Has he been kind and patient and warm, respecting your boundaries? Has he shown that he's receptive to making changes when you bring things up? This isn't necessarily a horrible sign but it does show that you both still need to work at getting on the same page. If he's been warm and kind and receptive, that speaks volumes about the progress you guys can make moving forward.
Also, this isn't a casual relationship. You know that. Casual relationships largely only work if they ONLY involve non-exclusive sex. No hanging out, doing relationship-seeming things. No exclusivity. Feelings are inherently not casual, and if you hang out together alone, if you're exclusive, if you have sex but you also do normal non-sexual things like actually sleeping next to each other and making breakfast together and sending texts about trivial things just so you can talk to each other, well, that's a relationship. Feelings are inevitable. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I think you need to clarify what you want. You either want a relationship or you don't, but putting yourself in limbo is only going to make this harder.
Clarify where you stand with the assault, with the "casual" relationship, with ALL of it, and then talk to him. Nothing is going to change unless he knows what you need so you can both work together and get there. Or you decide you're inherently incompatible somehow and give up. Either way, you need to figure out where you're at and clearly, calmly talk to him about it.
posted by Amy93 at 7:24 PM on July 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
I do think some of your framing here is unfair, though. You act like he has his own complex set of issues around it because he's showing some discomfort. I get that you're frustrated, but it IS an uncomfortable topic, and if you haven't been clear about what you want from him, he's not necessarily going to know what to say. You seem to be taking the uncomfortable silence VERY personally, as if it's a personal slight against you (hence "dick move"). Some people just don't know what to say. Has he been kind and patient and warm, respecting your boundaries? Has he shown that he's receptive to making changes when you bring things up? This isn't necessarily a horrible sign but it does show that you both still need to work at getting on the same page. If he's been warm and kind and receptive, that speaks volumes about the progress you guys can make moving forward.
Also, this isn't a casual relationship. You know that. Casual relationships largely only work if they ONLY involve non-exclusive sex. No hanging out, doing relationship-seeming things. No exclusivity. Feelings are inherently not casual, and if you hang out together alone, if you're exclusive, if you have sex but you also do normal non-sexual things like actually sleeping next to each other and making breakfast together and sending texts about trivial things just so you can talk to each other, well, that's a relationship. Feelings are inevitable. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I think you need to clarify what you want. You either want a relationship or you don't, but putting yourself in limbo is only going to make this harder.
Clarify where you stand with the assault, with the "casual" relationship, with ALL of it, and then talk to him. Nothing is going to change unless he knows what you need so you can both work together and get there. Or you decide you're inherently incompatible somehow and give up. Either way, you need to figure out where you're at and clearly, calmly talk to him about it.
posted by Amy93 at 7:24 PM on July 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
Yup. Rada has it. The no-strings thing you seem to thing eludes you is, in fact, pretty much not possible for people with depth and intelligence and issues and all the things that make you awesome. There is no secret code. There is only: finding someone with whom none of these crippling questions exist; someone with whom you are able to be yourself, free to say whatever you like, where the path is eggshell-free. At every turn, you are subjugating yourself, waiting for him to own the dynamic, feeling anxious, projecting that churned-up mental/emotional state onto the landscape of this relationship.
If he finds who you are to be "too much" or whatever... then he is not the one for you. Someone else is. Examine your needs closely. Do not leave them behind, or think that the solution lies in you pushing all this down in your effort to be chill. You are not too much.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:33 AM on July 17, 2018 [4 favorites]
If he finds who you are to be "too much" or whatever... then he is not the one for you. Someone else is. Examine your needs closely. Do not leave them behind, or think that the solution lies in you pushing all this down in your effort to be chill. You are not too much.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:33 AM on July 17, 2018 [4 favorites]
someone with whom none of these crippling questions exist; someone with whom you are able to be yourself, free to say whatever you like, where the path is eggshell-free
Just a quick side note to say that I am personally unacquainted with any human being, myself included, who could accurately have been described this way near the beginning of any relationship; this is because nobody actually can read another person's mind, which is as it should be.
I think it's enough both to be and to find somebody who sincerely wants to be that way with their partner and is prepared to do whatever internal emotional work is required to get there.
What you've told us so far says to me that each of you has a good chance of already having found such a person.
posted by flabdablet at 3:00 AM on July 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Just a quick side note to say that I am personally unacquainted with any human being, myself included, who could accurately have been described this way near the beginning of any relationship; this is because nobody actually can read another person's mind, which is as it should be.
I think it's enough both to be and to find somebody who sincerely wants to be that way with their partner and is prepared to do whatever internal emotional work is required to get there.
What you've told us so far says to me that each of you has a good chance of already having found such a person.
posted by flabdablet at 3:00 AM on July 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also, what moonlight on vermont said.
posted by flabdablet at 3:03 AM on July 17, 2018
posted by flabdablet at 3:03 AM on July 17, 2018
I don't see how any intimate relationship could not have subtle or even obscure undercurrents. It seems to me that your awful experience still carries some weight with you. Could it be that you are still working out how to get past it?
So, #1. I wonder if it would be productive for you to bring the subject up again, with the idea that you have some emotional furniture (of your own) to move around. It happened to you, not to him. I would be tempted to not try to fairly divide the emotional labor. It's your wish to put this thing into a proper perspective, respecting your relationship with him. He actually gave you a reasonable response. He may not realize that you are actually still expecting him to bring this topic up. It could be a tactful move to not belabor the point that you are still waiting for a response, in favor or trying to get to more important things.
If I were in his position I would be receptive to a query that went something like this: That thing I told you about, I really need to talk about it with you. It's important to me to connect with your thoughts and feelings about it. Will you please walk through this with me. Please consider that, while he may not feel the same intensity about this thing as do you, he still cares about how this thing affects you.
#2. Relationships don't work simply because we like each other. We usually more or less stumble through them. When the commo's good sometimes we get past things that would defeat the relationship. When the commo's bad, small shit can turn into intractable snags that kick our asses, and we look back in sorrowful hindsight imagining the one little thing we might have done to make it better. I realize that you've already explained the awful event to him. But now you need the other half of that conversation: how does this thing fit with him? You can bring that wish to him without sheathing it in expectations (you've waited for him to answer).
In any event, he said he'd get past it. Maybe he did. But you still want to compare notes about the way it will affect your relationship. You/ he/ the relationship. In my life, discussing potential threats to a relationship ranks up there with the worst of scenarios, but in this case you seem to have a shot at dealing with this successfully. Just keep in mind that it's you who requires further discussion. You told him what happened to you. Now let him help you unpack the rest--how it affects the way you deal with your relationship with him.
I am stuck by your thoughtfulness. I hope he is, too.
I wish you the best.
posted by mule98J at 8:01 AM on July 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
So, #1. I wonder if it would be productive for you to bring the subject up again, with the idea that you have some emotional furniture (of your own) to move around. It happened to you, not to him. I would be tempted to not try to fairly divide the emotional labor. It's your wish to put this thing into a proper perspective, respecting your relationship with him. He actually gave you a reasonable response. He may not realize that you are actually still expecting him to bring this topic up. It could be a tactful move to not belabor the point that you are still waiting for a response, in favor or trying to get to more important things.
If I were in his position I would be receptive to a query that went something like this: That thing I told you about, I really need to talk about it with you. It's important to me to connect with your thoughts and feelings about it. Will you please walk through this with me. Please consider that, while he may not feel the same intensity about this thing as do you, he still cares about how this thing affects you.
#2. Relationships don't work simply because we like each other. We usually more or less stumble through them. When the commo's good sometimes we get past things that would defeat the relationship. When the commo's bad, small shit can turn into intractable snags that kick our asses, and we look back in sorrowful hindsight imagining the one little thing we might have done to make it better. I realize that you've already explained the awful event to him. But now you need the other half of that conversation: how does this thing fit with him? You can bring that wish to him without sheathing it in expectations (you've waited for him to answer).
In any event, he said he'd get past it. Maybe he did. But you still want to compare notes about the way it will affect your relationship. You/ he/ the relationship. In my life, discussing potential threats to a relationship ranks up there with the worst of scenarios, but in this case you seem to have a shot at dealing with this successfully. Just keep in mind that it's you who requires further discussion. You told him what happened to you. Now let him help you unpack the rest--how it affects the way you deal with your relationship with him.
I am stuck by your thoughtfulness. I hope he is, too.
I wish you the best.
posted by mule98J at 8:01 AM on July 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I think people are being disingenuous by claiming the only way to broach this subject is by him suddenly, out of the blue saying "About that time you were raped". Clearly, based on the description in the post, the general topic of sexual assault has already naturally come up, multiple times, and he has assiduously avoided the obvious opportunities to tie that to what she's already told him. And obviously there are more sensitive ways to do it than "About that time you were raped". Anybody who would pass those chances by, in favor of total silence, and after being asked to get back to her on the topic, is at best insensitive and a bad communicator. At worst, he just doesn't care all that much, and doesn't want to get himself untidy by dipping into her messy feelings. I suspect the latter.
posted by nirblegee at 10:11 AM on July 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by nirblegee at 10:11 AM on July 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
What did you want him to do after receiving the knowledge of your assault? Did you want him to act differently, change beliefs, change behavior? Did you just want to be able to talk about it with him as far as how it's shaped some part of your existence and outlook? I think he's maybe not bringing it up because he doesn't know what to do about it and it's a sensitive topic. CAn you tell him more what you wanted from sharing that with him and then if he doesn't do that thing, it's a problem? I don't think it's emotional labor for you to say what you wanted to gain from sharing your story. That's not something someone can guess on their own because people react to assault in different ways and need different types of support.
posted by WeekendJen at 10:35 AM on July 17, 2018
posted by WeekendJen at 10:35 AM on July 17, 2018
Best answer: What is there to think about or deal with in regards to finding out your partner has been sexually assaulted in the past? I can only think of a few women I've dated who didn't have anything like that in their history, and it's quite possible the ones who I am recalling never sharing such an experience simply might not have felt it necessary to share with me. When I was young, I had that kind of childish response of wanting to inflict violence and anger upon the shitpeople involved, but I've since learned a man threatening or expressing his desire to do violence is for many reasons, an inappropriate response. Being supportive and available to talk seems like the sensible, default avenue. A woman I am talking to now was recently in an accident and the creep put his hands on her and tried to suggest she pay for the incident through sex, and reminding her that she wasn't the one who should feel gross or shitty and that she is a good person who doesn't deserve to be treated that way seemed to be a helpful response (especially since 2 other incidents the prior week of men or coworkers kissing her without consent).
Anyway, I sometimes struggle to understand certain types of dudes and right now I think I am not understanding on the man's end what there could be to consider, think about, or deal with. All of the potential answers I am coming up with to those questions squarely indicate the man with those issues or problems is a huge piece of shit.
posted by GoblinHoney at 11:58 AM on July 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Anyway, I sometimes struggle to understand certain types of dudes and right now I think I am not understanding on the man's end what there could be to consider, think about, or deal with. All of the potential answers I am coming up with to those questions squarely indicate the man with those issues or problems is a huge piece of shit.
posted by GoblinHoney at 11:58 AM on July 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: In response to several who have asked why I shared about the assault to begin with, and what I am expecting now:
- I shared in order to be able to have sex in non-triggering ways. FYI I did not go into detail, I just said, "We can't do X and Y because I get triggered from past sexual assaults, everything else is good." This has worked out well.
- What I expect now is to get on with life. This has not worked out well. Sharing my history has resulted in awkward silences every time anything remotely resembling sexual assault happens to enter the zone of our awareness: I can't make a remark about #metoo, let alone watch an episode of Handmaid's Tale with him. It's taking the fun out of the (okay let's call it what it is) relationship.
Again, I hear all of you all that this is my issue so I have to bring it up but goddamn it, I think I am allowed to be a little pissed off about the fact that I'm basically being punished for having been sexually assaulted.
I disagree with all of you all who said that I'm projecting my issues wrt my assault on him, by the way. I just want to be treated normal except for a couple of sexual triggers he needed to be aware of. *is grumpy and peevish but loves all of you anyway.*
posted by MiraK at 5:26 PM on July 17, 2018 [7 favorites]
- I shared in order to be able to have sex in non-triggering ways. FYI I did not go into detail, I just said, "We can't do X and Y because I get triggered from past sexual assaults, everything else is good." This has worked out well.
- What I expect now is to get on with life. This has not worked out well. Sharing my history has resulted in awkward silences every time anything remotely resembling sexual assault happens to enter the zone of our awareness: I can't make a remark about #metoo, let alone watch an episode of Handmaid's Tale with him. It's taking the fun out of the (okay let's call it what it is) relationship.
Again, I hear all of you all that this is my issue so I have to bring it up but goddamn it, I think I am allowed to be a little pissed off about the fact that I'm basically being punished for having been sexually assaulted.
I disagree with all of you all who said that I'm projecting my issues wrt my assault on him, by the way. I just want to be treated normal except for a couple of sexual triggers he needed to be aware of. *is grumpy and peevish but loves all of you anyway.*
posted by MiraK at 5:26 PM on July 17, 2018 [7 favorites]
What I expect now is to get on with life. This has not worked out well. Sharing my history has resulted in awkward silences every time anything remotely resembling sexual assault happens to enter the zone of our awareness.
I think one of the defining characteristics of casual relationships is that they are in the now, and inherently disengaged from the past and the future. I fail at them miserably because of this.
We're both pretty clear that this is for funsies, nothing serious, no L word,
It would be my guess that this is more from his side than yours (with chill girl caveat), precisely because of now-ness, and a lack of past/future concerns . And I would guess that he hasn't really started thinking about what you told him. His discomfort when sexual assault is in your zone of awareness could be because he knows you expect him to think about it, and he hasn't.
If that's possible, it's a good reason to begin a conversation with him about it. Ask him about his experience of sexual assault; personally, amongst friends, family, community, or what he sees in the media. Find out his level of engagement in the issue. Maybe he has none. Maybe he has a lot. Maybe he's thinks that sexual assault survivors are 'damaged' (fuck that noise) and he has to be more careful in case the damage comes to the fore. Perhaps he wants to understand what the 'trigger' will set off. Maybe he doesn't care. You need to find out before investing much more in this relationship.
It's fucked but yes, you are being punished for being sexually assaulted. By him via his social conditioning and potentially privileged existence.
posted by Thella at 6:27 PM on July 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think one of the defining characteristics of casual relationships is that they are in the now, and inherently disengaged from the past and the future. I fail at them miserably because of this.
We're both pretty clear that this is for funsies, nothing serious, no L word,
It would be my guess that this is more from his side than yours (with chill girl caveat), precisely because of now-ness, and a lack of past/future concerns . And I would guess that he hasn't really started thinking about what you told him. His discomfort when sexual assault is in your zone of awareness could be because he knows you expect him to think about it, and he hasn't.
If that's possible, it's a good reason to begin a conversation with him about it. Ask him about his experience of sexual assault; personally, amongst friends, family, community, or what he sees in the media. Find out his level of engagement in the issue. Maybe he has none. Maybe he has a lot. Maybe he's thinks that sexual assault survivors are 'damaged' (fuck that noise) and he has to be more careful in case the damage comes to the fore. Perhaps he wants to understand what the 'trigger' will set off. Maybe he doesn't care. You need to find out before investing much more in this relationship.
It's fucked but yes, you are being punished for being sexually assaulted. By him via his social conditioning and potentially privileged existence.
posted by Thella at 6:27 PM on July 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
AS far as the getting on with life part of your last response, maybe telling him that discussing #metoo or watching Handmaids Tale is ________ (a relief or comfort, engaging, whatever it is for you) and not triggering. IF he got the sex part can can sex without doing the triggering things, then maybe he will be able to talk without triggering once the triggers (or it seems in this case, non triggers) are explicitly told to him.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:16 AM on July 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by WeekendJen at 8:16 AM on July 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
I have been sexually assaulted on multiple occasions. My husband knows this and I've talked to him about it and when I have he has been mostly silent because he doesn't know what to say other than. He knows some of the details because sometimes I get triggered and breakdown crying and want to just talk about it. But it's not a conversation because he really doesn't know what to say and what is there to say? I don't know what I would expect him to say and he's a good person who feels sympathy for me and lets me talk at him. And this is someone I am married to who, who is an exceptional partner. I can't imagine how someone I've been dating for a few months would handle it and I think without talking to him about it you don't know how he's handling it. If this is someone you're spending time with and having sex with you should be able to bring it up. I very much expect he doesn't think you want to talk about it and he probably clams up at the mention of anything related to it because the two of you haven't talked about it properly and he doesn't want to upset you.
But the lesson here really is, who the hell knows?! Without having a conversation this is all conjecture and I firmly believe if you're going to have sex with someone you should be able to talk about your feelings. If you can't then it's not working out.
posted by emotionalmotionsickness at 12:54 PM on July 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
But the lesson here really is, who the hell knows?! Without having a conversation this is all conjecture and I firmly believe if you're going to have sex with someone you should be able to talk about your feelings. If you can't then it's not working out.
posted by emotionalmotionsickness at 12:54 PM on July 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
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I can easily imagine that he doesn't feel entitled to make something like that be "all about him." I guess the ideal thing would be for him to say "hey I've been thinking about it and just want you to know I'm there for you" or whatever, but I can also easily imagine a perfectly good person not knowing when/how to broach the topic of his feelings about your pain in away that isn't tone deaf and offensive.
That said, I know what it's like to be with a partner who just doesn't bring up hard stuff, and yeah, it presents challenges both to communication and to emotional labor load-balancing. It's tough.
In this case it sounds to me like it'd be worth putting it to bed - whatever it is you wish he'd say, let him know you'd like to hear him say it, so you can stop feeling like you're waiting for an update.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:21 AM on July 16, 2018 [11 favorites]