I said I'd type up a menu, then things got complicated
June 20, 2018 9:29 PM Subscribe
I told my good friend that I'd type up some menus for the resort where she works. She wanted to add some items to her current menu, and change prices. I'm not a graphic designer by any stretch of the imagination but I typed them up centre justified in a clear, legible fashion. They look like standard menus but now she wants more....
The menus were previously on three pages, one page of which was breakfast items. I submitted the first (breakfast) page to her for approval and she told me she was looking for something more like a menu from another restaurant, and sent me a picture of the menu in question. It's far beyond anything I know how to do --- it has 18 elements and uses over twenty fonts. IMHO it was hard to read and cluttered. But, I've been trying and trying to get this to work somehow. I tried some 'free' templates but none were quite right ( it's a big menu, over 50 items on the menu) and most weren't free either, something you don't find out until you go to export the file as a .pdf. Now they're adding things -- the owner wants a two-sided menu with an image of pine trees and bulrushes as a background on the reverse side. HELP! I really want to help my friend out but this is turning into a really difficult ask. I have over 20 hours into this project already and I've got nothing to show for it.
The menus were previously on three pages, one page of which was breakfast items. I submitted the first (breakfast) page to her for approval and she told me she was looking for something more like a menu from another restaurant, and sent me a picture of the menu in question. It's far beyond anything I know how to do --- it has 18 elements and uses over twenty fonts. IMHO it was hard to read and cluttered. But, I've been trying and trying to get this to work somehow. I tried some 'free' templates but none were quite right ( it's a big menu, over 50 items on the menu) and most weren't free either, something you don't find out until you go to export the file as a .pdf. Now they're adding things -- the owner wants a two-sided menu with an image of pine trees and bulrushes as a background on the reverse side. HELP! I really want to help my friend out but this is turning into a really difficult ask. I have over 20 hours into this project already and I've got nothing to show for it.
It's not clear what your question is. Are they paying you for this project?
posted by stowaway at 9:42 PM on June 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by stowaway at 9:42 PM on June 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I guess my question is are there online resources that I can use to do this? My friend's uncle owns the resort, it's a small place and I don't expect to get paid much for it, but figure she'll try to shoot me a hundred bucks or so for my time. I just moved and don't have work here yet, so I think she was trying to do me a favour.
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 9:46 PM on June 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 9:46 PM on June 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Have you used Canva? It's mostly free and you can muck around with it to make it do what you need without having to pay.
I like to put as much back onto the client as I can. Get them to scour Google for a free background they like. Ask them which fonts they want. Show them how to search for free/usable images if they want them included (try for images on transparent backgrounds).
They'll quickly see how much trouble it is to create something so complex.
posted by Youremyworld at 9:59 PM on June 20, 2018 [15 favorites]
I like to put as much back onto the client as I can. Get them to scour Google for a free background they like. Ask them which fonts they want. Show them how to search for free/usable images if they want them included (try for images on transparent backgrounds).
They'll quickly see how much trouble it is to create something so complex.
posted by Youremyworld at 9:59 PM on June 20, 2018 [15 favorites]
Man, $100 for this is really a small amount of money for this work especially, if you are not even sure if you will get that even. That being said, your best option is using Canva which just happens to have menu templates. You will need to be firm with her that here are her choices and TOO DAMN BAD about all the changes because each change is a further delay and an increase in her publication costs.
posted by jadepearl at 10:02 PM on June 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by jadepearl at 10:02 PM on June 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
$100 for more than 20 hours of work is like... less than $5/hr. Seems best if you either ask for more $ to make it worth your while, or respectfully decline to continue working further.
If you want to stick with this project because you're unemployed and don't have work yet, I guess being able to add it to your portfolio would offset the lack of monetary compensation...somewhat...
If you really want to keep working on it - what file format is the original menu + menu of the other restaurant? What software are you using (Adobe InDesign)?
I also noticed Adobe Spark has some sort of menu-making wizard that gives you pre-made themes and templates. I've never tried it but you could check it out. If you don't have Adobe... an Adobe subscription starts at ~$10 but maybe there are either discounts or trial subscriptions out there. Or you could borrow someone's account.
posted by aielen at 10:17 PM on June 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
If you want to stick with this project because you're unemployed and don't have work yet, I guess being able to add it to your portfolio would offset the lack of monetary compensation...somewhat...
If you really want to keep working on it - what file format is the original menu + menu of the other restaurant? What software are you using (Adobe InDesign)?
I also noticed Adobe Spark has some sort of menu-making wizard that gives you pre-made themes and templates. I've never tried it but you could check it out. If you don't have Adobe... an Adobe subscription starts at ~$10 but maybe there are either discounts or trial subscriptions out there. Or you could borrow someone's account.
posted by aielen at 10:17 PM on June 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: it has 18 elements and uses over twenty fonts
Odds are, she only saw 5 fonts, if that--many people who say, "that's too simple; make it look more like this" have no idea what's actually involved in "this."
If you don't want to just say, "this is beyond my skills and available time; I can do the rest like I did the first page, in your choice of font, but that's all," you can fall back on drowning her in detail requests:
"This one has over 15 fonts, and those aren't free. What's your font budget?"
"Do you want the leading kept to single, or is there a minimum you want for the description text?"
"I don't have an image library; do you have specific images you want me to use?" (And again: "what's your budget for that?" - if they didn't get it from Pixabay, it's probably not free.)
I understand that sometimes, it's worth doing a low-price project for a friend, especially if it lets you stretch your skills. But when you've gone past "this is interesting; wow, I have a new appreciation for menus now" and into "where the #&$*!! are the tab settings again? and the dot leadups? OMG WHY ARE THEY DASHES I DIDN'T SELECT DASHES?" - it's time to tell the friend that no, you're sorry, but you cannot do what they asked.
If you're being extra-polite, you offer to give them the original file, with the expressed hope that they can find someone to do "the rest" of it. Otherwise, you offer to do the whole thing in a basic font with minimal formatting, and maybe give them 2-3 PDFs with different fonts: one serif, one sans, one slightly scripty.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:07 PM on June 20, 2018 [23 favorites]
Odds are, she only saw 5 fonts, if that--many people who say, "that's too simple; make it look more like this" have no idea what's actually involved in "this."
If you don't want to just say, "this is beyond my skills and available time; I can do the rest like I did the first page, in your choice of font, but that's all," you can fall back on drowning her in detail requests:
"This one has over 15 fonts, and those aren't free. What's your font budget?"
"Do you want the leading kept to single, or is there a minimum you want for the description text?"
"I don't have an image library; do you have specific images you want me to use?" (And again: "what's your budget for that?" - if they didn't get it from Pixabay, it's probably not free.)
I understand that sometimes, it's worth doing a low-price project for a friend, especially if it lets you stretch your skills. But when you've gone past "this is interesting; wow, I have a new appreciation for menus now" and into "where the #&$*!! are the tab settings again? and the dot leadups? OMG WHY ARE THEY DASHES I DIDN'T SELECT DASHES?" - it's time to tell the friend that no, you're sorry, but you cannot do what they asked.
If you're being extra-polite, you offer to give them the original file, with the expressed hope that they can find someone to do "the rest" of it. Otherwise, you offer to do the whole thing in a basic font with minimal formatting, and maybe give them 2-3 PDFs with different fonts: one serif, one sans, one slightly scripty.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:07 PM on June 20, 2018 [23 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the input. I can't make the Canva templates accommodate the 64 menu items plus assorted sides and extras all on one page. I don't think it's doable without tiny tiny font. I've contacted her and we'll talk tomorrow. I think her ideas are outstripping her venue, as this operation is a very small resort/cabin rental in a fairly remote area. I doubt there are many days when they serve over 20 meals or ring in over 500 dollars in sales. I'm going to encourage her to stick with the classic menu holders they have, and printed sheets inside, because those are easily changed at a low cost. As for my twenty hours of frustrating work (on both the PC and Mac) trying to make this work somehow, I'll chalk it up to life experience.
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 11:42 PM on June 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 11:42 PM on June 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
With that many items and options, I think they'll probably be happier with the simpler design once they stop and think about it. It's easier for the diner to take in the information, and more upscale restaurants usually do stick to a fairly minimalist design.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:26 AM on June 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:26 AM on June 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Just in case it makes you feel better, I do this sort of thing as part of my day job, and 10% of what I consider to be my skill base is design, 90% of it is convincing my client not to go ahead with their complicated and hideous ideas and to keep it simple.
posted by greenish at 2:03 AM on June 21, 2018 [58 favorites]
posted by greenish at 2:03 AM on June 21, 2018 [58 favorites]
All I can think about is, what happens when they want to change something? If it's this problematic to do the first iteration... yikes.
KEEP IT SIMPLE. Better for everyone.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:13 AM on June 21, 2018
KEEP IT SIMPLE. Better for everyone.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:13 AM on June 21, 2018
When clients ask for complications and cannot be dissuaded, make sure you're charging by the hour.
"Can you add X enhancement?"
"Certainly! My estimate is 10 hours. At $YZ per hour, that will add $ABC to your bill. Are we good to proceed?"
"Could it cost less than that?"
"Certainly! I will do it in half the time, however I will only be able to complete half of the ask."
"Um. Let me think about this."
posted by Construction Concern at 6:03 AM on June 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
"Can you add X enhancement?"
"Certainly! My estimate is 10 hours. At $YZ per hour, that will add $ABC to your bill. Are we good to proceed?"
"Could it cost less than that?"
"Certainly! I will do it in half the time, however I will only be able to complete half of the ask."
"Um. Let me think about this."
posted by Construction Concern at 6:03 AM on June 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
it has 18 elements and uses over twenty fonts
It sounds like a textbook example of terrible design. Glad to hear you're planning to extricate yourself from the situation. If for some reason you really wanted to learn more about how to do this kind of thing and don't mind investing a lot of additional unpaid time in it, though, you could get a trial of InDesign and figure it out.
posted by pinochiette at 6:07 AM on June 21, 2018
It sounds like a textbook example of terrible design. Glad to hear you're planning to extricate yourself from the situation. If for some reason you really wanted to learn more about how to do this kind of thing and don't mind investing a lot of additional unpaid time in it, though, you could get a trial of InDesign and figure it out.
posted by pinochiette at 6:07 AM on June 21, 2018
I used InDesign at work for years, and I really enjoyed it once I knew what I was doing.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:21 AM on June 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:21 AM on June 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Not sure if it would be useful for everything they want but Canva is awesome for free (or extremely cheap) graphic design. It’s super easy to use, looks awesome, and has several menu templates that look really nice.
posted by forkisbetter at 7:42 AM on June 21, 2018
posted by forkisbetter at 7:42 AM on June 21, 2018
My graphic artist job sometimes involves setting menus and I don't even want to do it when I'm being paid. Doing it for free is ludicrous. Doing it for free, for a friend is just begging for stress.
Designing a good menu is much harder than it looks, takes so much longer than you can imagine, and the person who needs the menu will always have an avalanche of little, but annoying and time-consuming changes to make. Also, multiply the amount of work and redoing things by how little the client knows about food, menus, their own business, readability, or anything relevant to the task at hand. It's a lot of detail and nonsense and 100% pain in the ass. I think we charge 75 an hour for design work here and we're pretty cheap (also I only make 9 an hour) and a menu can take many, many hours over the course of it's creation, plus time after for "little" changes that are actually massive hassles.
If you've already committed to helping this person, I think a fair thing to do would be mash out a template menu, give them the files to edit them, and let their god sort it out.
posted by GoblinHoney at 1:15 PM on June 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Designing a good menu is much harder than it looks, takes so much longer than you can imagine, and the person who needs the menu will always have an avalanche of little, but annoying and time-consuming changes to make. Also, multiply the amount of work and redoing things by how little the client knows about food, menus, their own business, readability, or anything relevant to the task at hand. It's a lot of detail and nonsense and 100% pain in the ass. I think we charge 75 an hour for design work here and we're pretty cheap (also I only make 9 an hour) and a menu can take many, many hours over the course of it's creation, plus time after for "little" changes that are actually massive hassles.
If you've already committed to helping this person, I think a fair thing to do would be mash out a template menu, give them the files to edit them, and let their god sort it out.
posted by GoblinHoney at 1:15 PM on June 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
If all else fails you can send your friend to this website [The Oatmeal on the subject].
posted by craven_morhead at 2:19 PM on June 21, 2018
posted by craven_morhead at 2:19 PM on June 21, 2018
Response by poster: Thanks all! I spoke to her today and explained how what she wanted was not necessarily a wise decision because changing anything on the menu would be very difficult and the cost per menu would be high and she'd also have to get an actual design professional to make it happen. So, we're going back to the simple 2-font, 3 page original plan, on a nice heavy stock paper. She was really apologetic once she realized how big of an ask her vision was.
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 11:49 PM on June 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 11:49 PM on June 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
What software are you using for this? If you're using Word, you might find it easier to align/manipulate the text using tables. Set the table borders to transparent. You can split and merge cells, drag them wider or narrower.
posted by radioamy at 8:44 AM on June 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by radioamy at 8:44 AM on June 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
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