Differences between dubbed and spoken Japanese

February 8, 2006 8:11 AM

Why would there be a difference between the dubbed Japanese translation and the subtitled Japanese translation in the movie 'Cruel Intentions'?

To futher help my study of Japanese I decided to purchase a spoken English movie (Cruel Intentions) that I could watch both dubbed and subtitled in Japanese. I thought this would be a good idea because, as I would already understand story, I could study the Japanese translator's choice of words. However I've come across a bit of a problem - the dubbed Japanese and the subtitled Japanese are not exactly the same. In fact, in almost every dialogue the words used are completely different.

For example, the actress is walking along the beach with her friend and asks:

- English version: so what else do you know about Sabastian?
- Dubbed Japanese version: サバスチャンってどんな人なの (Sabastian tte donna hito na no?)
- Subtitled Japanese version: サバスチャンの話を (Sabastian no hanasu wo)

Her friend replies:

- English version: Well, he's smart as hell you know...
- Dubbed Japanese version: すごく頭がゆって　(sugoku atama ga yu tte)
- Subtitled Japanese version: 頭のキレる男だよ (atama no kireru otoko da yo)

Note, the subtited versions were written exactly as their appear on the screen, but my dubbed versions might be a little off, but even still, they're completely different to each other.

One thought I had was maybe they wanted to shorten the subtitled version to make it quicker to read, but as you can see from the above examples, even the spoken phrases are short, and there are countless other examples of very short dialogue that differs, so that theory doesn't hold up.

For the time being Cruel Intentions is the only movie I have, but I might test it on some others in the future. I certainly hope their not all like that as the whole purpose of this exercise was the listen and read the translated Japanese.

Anyway, if anyone out there can explain why this is (maybe there's something unique about written and spoken Japanese that I don't know about?), and even whether or not other English to Japanese movies do the same, it would be much appreciated. Cheers!

posted by Jase_B to writing & language (18 comments total)

Is the lip-sync in the dubbed version pretty good? They might be choosing specific phrasing to get it to match up better. Although for this to cause a difference, the subtitling would have to be done as a completely distinct separate process which doesn't have that same goal.
posted by smackfu at 8:15 AM on February 8, 2006

Translated movies usually vary from the original version depending on the interpretation of the translator. It really isn't an exact thing. Everyone has their own opinions about the best way to tranlsate phrases and words. I would assume there were different translators who worked on the dubbed version and the subtitleed version and they didn't compare notes. When I watch some Spanish movies subtitled in English, I see some definite mistranslations.
posted by JJ86 at 8:18 AM on February 8, 2006

Actually the lip-synching is really good. Interesting point that I didn't consider. Maybe I should get one of my Japanese friends to check it out and tell me the true differences between the dubbed and subtitled versions.
posted by Jase_B at 8:20 AM on February 8, 2006

This type of thing happens all the time. I'm guessing that one translator does the spoken lines and another does the written scripts.

I've had this same problem with movies and French subtitles/dubbing.
posted by tiamat at 8:20 AM on February 8, 2006

I would assume there were different translators who worked on the dubbed version and the subtitleed version and they didn't compare notes.

Hmm, that's seems a bit unprofessional. If that's the case though I wonder how common it is?
posted by Jase_B at 8:22 AM on February 8, 2006

Dubbing and subtitling are often done by different companies, at different times, and they have different goals - subtitling must fit on the screen, dubbing must be in at least rough accord with the spoken length... Try watching the English subtitles of an English movie, you'll notice the subtitles and dialogue often differ.

I would think you could actually learn more from watching the two. Much like reading two translations of the same book, you can see where the two translators took different tacks, where they agree or nearly agree, etc. Okay, admittedly it's not the same as an instructional tape where the written and spoken versions are identical, but for a slightly more advanced student, it could be very useful.

Also try: watching a Japanese movie and putting on the English subtitles. You can learn quickly-spoken Japanese, and the subtitles will keep you on track if you have trouble understanding.
posted by jellicle at 8:27 AM on February 8, 2006

As someone who has done some subtitling (not Japanese, English), I can vouch for what has been said by tiamat and jellicle. It's almost certain that different people are doing each version, at different times, perhaps on different parts of the planet, and have different guidelines (e.g., text must fit on screen vs. dialog should stop when person's lips stop moving).

In an ideal world, perhaps the dubbing and subtitling would be closer, but -- shockingly! -- subtitling and dubbing can be pretty much an afterthought farmed out to the lowest bidder. It's not always done with linguistic purity in mind.
posted by veggieboy at 8:47 AM on February 8, 2006

I've definitely experienced the opposite... Watching the english-dubbed version of Crouching Tiger with english subtitles, (I do this frequently so I can keep the volume on the tv down) the two versions were ridiculously different, to the point where i had to turn one off. The differences seemed to make no sense, and I thought they were largely due to the dubbed version trying to match the actors' lip movements, while the subtitle version was a more literal translation.

I don't speak a lick of japanese, so that was just my theory.
posted by FortyT-wo at 8:55 AM on February 8, 2006

I have been learning Japanese for a few years and my wife is Japanese, and I've recently been brushing up by watching Japanese TV variety shows that my wife watches- there's a Japanese grocery/book store nearby that rents out DVDs that get recorded from japan and shipped over within a few weeks.

Vareity shows and talk shows have subtitled text along the bottom at least 50% of the time, especially during interviews, or anytime anyone says anything important. Seemed to be an odd and distracting trend at first (maybe it started to help people understand the various dialects??), but handy for people still learining the language.
posted by p3t3 at 9:00 AM on February 8, 2006

I've seen a number of Japanese movies with both English dubbing and subtitles. In not one of them has the dubbed text ever matched the subtitled text.
posted by Caviar at 9:04 AM on February 8, 2006

I'm thrilled FortyT-wo referred to Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon; the same issue has always chapped my ass. The subtitles give the film a spartan, direct style of dialogue that I loved. The dubbed dialogue, which I listened to at home as a lark, is flowery and overwrought; truly grating stuff. For those that enjoyed the film in the original, which better represents the screenplay?
posted by boombot at 9:30 AM on February 8, 2006

Dubbing involves for the translator to true to match the phonemes to the lips movement. He therefore has to pick words that look like it is actually said by the actor on screen.
On the other hand, subtitles are pretty much free.

I personnally always choose to watch subtitled movies, but then again, I'm french :)
posted by XiBe at 9:47 AM on February 8, 2006

Others have pointed out the main culprit, separate translators, so I'll note that I attended a talk a few years ago by Natsuko Toda, Japan's subtitle queen (wrote it up briefly here). She said she usually has only 2 weeks to write the subtitles for a movie, and strict limitations on the number of characters to allow viewers to watch the action. She's the one who got hammered about her subtitles for that troll ring movie not capturing the spirit of the book.
posted by planetkyoto at 11:00 AM on February 8, 2006

Smackfu got it right away. I'd be surprised if you ever saw subtitles and dubbing match. Good subtitles are written to match the connotation and emotion of the original language. Good dubbing is written to match the mouth movements. This is, incidentally, why virtually everyone who watches foreign movies prefers the subtitles. Once you know there's a difference, dubbed movies are really irritatingly sub-par.
posted by Plutor at 11:02 AM on February 8, 2006

As someone who has been peripherally involved in subtitling (Japanese, actually) movies, I'll echo what's been said here. The only restrictions on translation for subtitles are clarity and length-- you often want the translation to be as clear and concise as possible. This makes the subtitles easier to read, and also makes your timing scripts easier to deal with.

Dubs, on the other hand, aim to match the timing of the original dialogue. So often things that are difficult to translate, quick jokes, cultural references and the like, are just thrown out and replaced with something "equivalent."

There is also an unspoken assumption that people watching a subtitled film are interested in an accurate translation of the original performance (and will split their focus between the film and the subtitles as a sacrifice in order to get it), while people who choose a dubbed version just wanna watch a movie. Make of that what you will.
posted by drumcorpse at 11:41 AM on February 8, 2006

One other interesting thing I noticed, besides the obvious restrictions of matching the lip-synch, subtitled movies in Spanish often censor the original. I have had the experience with German and French movies but no-where near the same extent. Many of Almodovar's he?she characters, or any situation where people act outside their gendered roles are ruthlessly subtitled out of existance. Woman who swear are "softened", men who express themselves in a feminine way are "toughened up" I actually wrote a paper on this for my masters many moons ago. Translation has always been a form of censorship but we imagine that this has eased off over time. It hasn't and it is not just time restrictions.
posted by Wilder at 11:45 AM on February 8, 2006

I translate Japanese movies into English (subtitles), too! Last year I must have worked on at least ten of them... I'm surprised there are so many people here who have also had experience doing this. I think drumcorpse's answer nails it. There's no way the subtitles and voice-overs will match perfectly, because of the different restrictions and different translators. And this probably holds true for all languages, so in this case, there's nothing "unique about written and spoken Japanese that (you) don't know about" that affects the difference.
posted by misozaki at 5:44 PM on February 8, 2006

Thanks for your answers everyone. All makes sense now.
posted by Jase_B at 6:01 PM on February 8, 2006