Must I walk barefoot over Legos to get to the good stuff?
May 5, 2018 10:35 PM Subscribe
Third-life crisis here. I find myself thinking about whether or not I want to have kids, and unable to come up with a good answer.
If you don't have children, how have you made your life full and meaningful? Are you a mentor/friend/trusted adult to other people's kids -- nieces and nephews, Big Brother/Big Sister, other volunteer stuff? If you deliberately chose not to have kids, are you still happy about that choice? Why or why not?
If you've had children, what do you wish you'd known ahead of time? What would have made you more prepared to make an informed decision about whether to become a parent or not? Are you happy you decided to become a parent? Why or why not?
Parenting in U.S. at this point in history (I can't speak for previous generations, probably they probably had a hard time too) seems somewhat insane for average working people -- too much to do and no time to do it. But *not* parenting, well -- I guess I worry I'll miss out on a big experience of love and meaning, and that I'll regret it when I'm old.
I don't currently have a partner, but I'd definitely want to be in a stable, reliable partnership before having kid(s). Part of the reason for this question is that many folks dating in their 30s have clear ideas of whether they want kids or not. I'd like to figure out my own preferences so I don't end up happily dating someone only to discover we have an unhappy mismatch in desire to parent. The other reason for this question is so I can plan my life to still be full and meaningful even if I don't find the right partner and thus don't have the opportunity to have a kid.
I'm an only child and my cousins and their kids live far away, or I'd try out being more involved as an aunt on a daily basis. In lieu of that, what can I do or think about to help myself make this decision?
If you don't have children, how have you made your life full and meaningful? Are you a mentor/friend/trusted adult to other people's kids -- nieces and nephews, Big Brother/Big Sister, other volunteer stuff? If you deliberately chose not to have kids, are you still happy about that choice? Why or why not?
If you've had children, what do you wish you'd known ahead of time? What would have made you more prepared to make an informed decision about whether to become a parent or not? Are you happy you decided to become a parent? Why or why not?
Parenting in U.S. at this point in history (I can't speak for previous generations, probably they probably had a hard time too) seems somewhat insane for average working people -- too much to do and no time to do it. But *not* parenting, well -- I guess I worry I'll miss out on a big experience of love and meaning, and that I'll regret it when I'm old.
I don't currently have a partner, but I'd definitely want to be in a stable, reliable partnership before having kid(s). Part of the reason for this question is that many folks dating in their 30s have clear ideas of whether they want kids or not. I'd like to figure out my own preferences so I don't end up happily dating someone only to discover we have an unhappy mismatch in desire to parent. The other reason for this question is so I can plan my life to still be full and meaningful even if I don't find the right partner and thus don't have the opportunity to have a kid.
I'm an only child and my cousins and their kids live far away, or I'd try out being more involved as an aunt on a daily basis. In lieu of that, what can I do or think about to help myself make this decision?
So having and caring for kids is a huge, complicated, ongoing effort, right? It takes a ton of work and dedication and undoubtedly there will be many disappointments along with the happy and fulfilling things. I think that making meaning without having children is the same way. It's just that society is structured such that there's a clear path that's marked "your own kids". It doesn't mean that that path is easy or straightforward or anything, it just means that's the one that's clearly indicated. Everything else is also going to take dedication and work and have a lot of ups and downs. And you have to decide on it and stick with it by yourself, for the most part.
Like, I'm personally dedicated to not having my own children but would be more than happy to be someone's step mom. This gets me a lot of flack from my parents' generation. What doesn't get me flack from them is the love and care I show towards the kids of my friends and family. I don't see how these things are actually that different at all? Being an auntie is really important to me. Being supportive of the parents I know and their families is important too, and I subsequently get included in their family occasions, which helps me further in being an auntie. I like kids in general and love some kids in specific, but for physical and mental health reasons I'm not going to have my own kids, and I'm not going to ever be solely responsible for a baby, and that means I have plenty of time and care to give to the preexisting kids I already love, as well as the other things in my life that are important.
Other childless folks I know tend to have really intense special interests or careers. I know a woman who is incredibly dedicated to the study and preservation of marine invertebrates, she's a marine biologist and every few years I check in with her and she's living on some boat or some obscure island in the middle of nowhere and super happy. It also helps that she's ace, like, I suspect her lack of desire for sex helps with the boat/remote island living. Then there are the many many queer couples who can't have their own kids because biology, and can't adopt kids because prejudice. It's funny, when the clearly labeled life path gets closed off to you, you can still make meaningful choices and find happiness. One couple I know via family friends are wonderful creative ladies who write and produce kids' television in LA. They don't plan to have kids, but they're surrounded by and their careers are dedicated to the happiness of kids. Also they foster dogs. Another couple I know makes a trip every year to whatever city Worldcon is in, and then travel nearby. They met through scifi fandom and have stayed together through gender transitions, medical trouble, family emergencies, international lines... They find fulfillment in each other and in speculative fiction.
But it doesn't have to be either/or. I think that it's good to be flexible. It's great that you're spending time thinking about this (I suspect most people don't) but don't get stressed about making a solid choice. You should be looking for meaning and fulfillment regardless of if you're also a parent or not. You can foster dogs and have kids, you can travel often and have kids, you can love science deeply and have kids. Especially if you're with the right person.
posted by Mizu at 11:05 PM on May 5, 2018 [17 favorites]
Like, I'm personally dedicated to not having my own children but would be more than happy to be someone's step mom. This gets me a lot of flack from my parents' generation. What doesn't get me flack from them is the love and care I show towards the kids of my friends and family. I don't see how these things are actually that different at all? Being an auntie is really important to me. Being supportive of the parents I know and their families is important too, and I subsequently get included in their family occasions, which helps me further in being an auntie. I like kids in general and love some kids in specific, but for physical and mental health reasons I'm not going to have my own kids, and I'm not going to ever be solely responsible for a baby, and that means I have plenty of time and care to give to the preexisting kids I already love, as well as the other things in my life that are important.
Other childless folks I know tend to have really intense special interests or careers. I know a woman who is incredibly dedicated to the study and preservation of marine invertebrates, she's a marine biologist and every few years I check in with her and she's living on some boat or some obscure island in the middle of nowhere and super happy. It also helps that she's ace, like, I suspect her lack of desire for sex helps with the boat/remote island living. Then there are the many many queer couples who can't have their own kids because biology, and can't adopt kids because prejudice. It's funny, when the clearly labeled life path gets closed off to you, you can still make meaningful choices and find happiness. One couple I know via family friends are wonderful creative ladies who write and produce kids' television in LA. They don't plan to have kids, but they're surrounded by and their careers are dedicated to the happiness of kids. Also they foster dogs. Another couple I know makes a trip every year to whatever city Worldcon is in, and then travel nearby. They met through scifi fandom and have stayed together through gender transitions, medical trouble, family emergencies, international lines... They find fulfillment in each other and in speculative fiction.
But it doesn't have to be either/or. I think that it's good to be flexible. It's great that you're spending time thinking about this (I suspect most people don't) but don't get stressed about making a solid choice. You should be looking for meaning and fulfillment regardless of if you're also a parent or not. You can foster dogs and have kids, you can travel often and have kids, you can love science deeply and have kids. Especially if you're with the right person.
posted by Mizu at 11:05 PM on May 5, 2018 [17 favorites]
All of my friends who are childless by choice are happy with the decision and live full, rich lives. My friends who are parents are also mostly happy, though the immense and difficult challenges of single parenting or significant sacrifices do weigh more heavily on some of them.
I'd also say that if you don't feel strongly and deeply about having kids, you shouldn't try to force yourself to. It's possible to have wonderful relationships with kids that aren't your own. It's important for them, too.
posted by quince at 11:12 PM on May 5, 2018 [18 favorites]
I'd also say that if you don't feel strongly and deeply about having kids, you shouldn't try to force yourself to. It's possible to have wonderful relationships with kids that aren't your own. It's important for them, too.
posted by quince at 11:12 PM on May 5, 2018 [18 favorites]
I may be only 28 but I've known I haven't wanted kids for probably coming toward a decade - and 8 years of that I've spent with my husband.
I'm at the age where TONS of my friends have kids, or want kids, or are pregnant or whatever. And absolutely nothing about it appeals to me. None. Nada. Zip.
I felt this way before developing disabling chronic illness - and that has honestly brought into view just how much responsibility I don't want to deal with. I don't even want a cat, and I ADORE cats.
My husband and I have never second guessed our choice for even the slightest moment.
But I understand for some people, it's complicated. However, I'm of the mindset that kids should be a "HELL YES" sort of choice when you come down to it. There's no going back.
I would challenge you to start journaling about this. What do you like about kids? About parenting? About not parenting? What are your hopes and fears?
In general I think many people make the mistake of assuming children will be a certain way, that they will be an extension of yourself and that they will be there to take care of you when you're old. I personally feel that you should go into having children raising them to be independent and being secure in themselves and their own separate human.
I also KNOW for myself that the idea of possible future regret is nothing in comparison to how much I would absolutely resent the responsibility of a child.
Spend more time around kids. Spend time around parents. Babysit. Tutor. Whatever. Don't just be around kids in a super controlled environment because that's not real life at all.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:15 PM on May 5, 2018 [20 favorites]
I'm at the age where TONS of my friends have kids, or want kids, or are pregnant or whatever. And absolutely nothing about it appeals to me. None. Nada. Zip.
I felt this way before developing disabling chronic illness - and that has honestly brought into view just how much responsibility I don't want to deal with. I don't even want a cat, and I ADORE cats.
My husband and I have never second guessed our choice for even the slightest moment.
But I understand for some people, it's complicated. However, I'm of the mindset that kids should be a "HELL YES" sort of choice when you come down to it. There's no going back.
I would challenge you to start journaling about this. What do you like about kids? About parenting? About not parenting? What are your hopes and fears?
In general I think many people make the mistake of assuming children will be a certain way, that they will be an extension of yourself and that they will be there to take care of you when you're old. I personally feel that you should go into having children raising them to be independent and being secure in themselves and their own separate human.
I also KNOW for myself that the idea of possible future regret is nothing in comparison to how much I would absolutely resent the responsibility of a child.
Spend more time around kids. Spend time around parents. Babysit. Tutor. Whatever. Don't just be around kids in a super controlled environment because that's not real life at all.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:15 PM on May 5, 2018 [20 favorites]
I think that you have kids because you want to have kids. Not because you are thinking about whether you are missing something, concerned about meaning in your life, worried about the future etc. There is nothing wrong at all with simply saying 'no, don't really want them.'
Children, I think, should be born to people who feel a strong desire to be parents. And if you don't want them - fine. Absolutely fine. You can find meaning and value in an infinite number of other places- be a kind, compassionate person and do quality things wherever you find yourself. The world will always needs more of those kind of people.
You may regret your decision but that is a risk inherent in being alive. Worse to regret being a parent, which is a lifetime commitment, and involves another person.
I have spent hours mentally poking myself in the hope of waking some missing maternal instinct, eventually realising it was OK and I was OK. I may have missed out on something but the same can be said of all the other decisons I've made.
posted by Heloise9 at 11:26 PM on May 5, 2018 [21 favorites]
Children, I think, should be born to people who feel a strong desire to be parents. And if you don't want them - fine. Absolutely fine. You can find meaning and value in an infinite number of other places- be a kind, compassionate person and do quality things wherever you find yourself. The world will always needs more of those kind of people.
You may regret your decision but that is a risk inherent in being alive. Worse to regret being a parent, which is a lifetime commitment, and involves another person.
I have spent hours mentally poking myself in the hope of waking some missing maternal instinct, eventually realising it was OK and I was OK. I may have missed out on something but the same can be said of all the other decisons I've made.
posted by Heloise9 at 11:26 PM on May 5, 2018 [21 favorites]
the way you've phrased your question, specifically "If you don't have children, how have you made your life full and meaningful? Are you a mentor/friend/trusted adult to other people's kids -- nieces and nephews, Big Brother/Big Sister, other volunteer stuff?" seems to me that you say that without interacting with any kids, a person's life is lacking in both full-ness or meaningfull-ness. Now, that could mean that interacting with kids is either conciously or unconciously important to you. So, maybe that shows in which direction you are leaning?
Now, personally, I have *never* had any desire to have kids, like at any time and regardless of my partner at the time. It is just not for me. If we're being really honest here, I am not really sure I even really like kids. I do appreciate the time I spend with my nephew, but that's just once a year and a few online message now and then (I do live on the other side of the planet from them). Now that my nephew is getting older our interaction could get to a higher level and be more fun (although visiting will still not be possible more than maybe once a year if that).
Don't really feel like i'm missing out on anything.
posted by alchemist at 11:36 PM on May 5, 2018 [16 favorites]
Now, personally, I have *never* had any desire to have kids, like at any time and regardless of my partner at the time. It is just not for me. If we're being really honest here, I am not really sure I even really like kids. I do appreciate the time I spend with my nephew, but that's just once a year and a few online message now and then (I do live on the other side of the planet from them). Now that my nephew is getting older our interaction could get to a higher level and be more fun (although visiting will still not be possible more than maybe once a year if that).
Don't really feel like i'm missing out on anything.
posted by alchemist at 11:36 PM on May 5, 2018 [16 favorites]
Best answer: 50 something here who has not had children and is now single.
Sometimes I really miss having a special person connected through unconditional love, but then I had a bad relationship with my mother and I know these relationships don't always go smoothly. I also lost a sibling as a child and I'm not sure I could face that trauma as a parent.
Other times I am very glad I don't have exactly that deeply loved person, because of my despair over the social and environmental future of the earth. I'd hate to be comparing the world I grew up in with one my hypothetical grand-kids might face.
One way I have dealt with my lack of biological connection to young people is to become friends with my friend's youngsters, and most importantly, I career-changed into teaching. I teach kids on the social, physical and geographic margins, outlier kids of all types, and that brings me immense satisfaction. I play a meaningful and influential role in young peoples' lives.
I don't think I could go through life without any relationships with young people, and while I miss the ideal of having my own young person/people to love, I love the young people I am connected to.
posted by Thella at 11:49 PM on May 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
Sometimes I really miss having a special person connected through unconditional love, but then I had a bad relationship with my mother and I know these relationships don't always go smoothly. I also lost a sibling as a child and I'm not sure I could face that trauma as a parent.
Other times I am very glad I don't have exactly that deeply loved person, because of my despair over the social and environmental future of the earth. I'd hate to be comparing the world I grew up in with one my hypothetical grand-kids might face.
One way I have dealt with my lack of biological connection to young people is to become friends with my friend's youngsters, and most importantly, I career-changed into teaching. I teach kids on the social, physical and geographic margins, outlier kids of all types, and that brings me immense satisfaction. I play a meaningful and influential role in young peoples' lives.
I don't think I could go through life without any relationships with young people, and while I miss the ideal of having my own young person/people to love, I love the young people I am connected to.
posted by Thella at 11:49 PM on May 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
It all depends. It depends on you. It depends on the kid(s). They're people, too. It's definitely the case that there are kids in my extended family that I like a lot. There are definitely those I like less. I got incredibly lucky that my own kid has mostly been someone with whom I really, really enjoy hanging out. That might not have been the case, and looking at friends with multiples that's mostly got not nothing to do with the particular parent, or their parenting. Whether you like them or not in general, or that particular moment, you're on the hook for their care - so you kind of need to be ready for that, too.
I will say that an unexpected (and probably unavoidable) "benefit" (?) is having a kid forces you to confront your own upbringing. In my own case, I had rationalized a whole bunch of crazy from my own parents (or at least my mom) as normal. Looking at those same situations with my own son or nieces or nephews, and even accounting for different times/cultural contexts/societal norms/etc., etc. etc. it's become very clear to me that much of what I experienced as a kid and especially as an adolescent were complete and total bullshit. People were most certainly not "doing the best they could." Living on the other side of that relationship gives you a perspective from that side - for better or worse. Sometimes (actually, a lot of the time) - it's both. Striving to make better choices makes you realize that wasn't necessarily done for you, or even really attempted. And that can, for real, be really, really fucking hard to deal with.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 12:08 AM on May 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
I will say that an unexpected (and probably unavoidable) "benefit" (?) is having a kid forces you to confront your own upbringing. In my own case, I had rationalized a whole bunch of crazy from my own parents (or at least my mom) as normal. Looking at those same situations with my own son or nieces or nephews, and even accounting for different times/cultural contexts/societal norms/etc., etc. etc. it's become very clear to me that much of what I experienced as a kid and especially as an adolescent were complete and total bullshit. People were most certainly not "doing the best they could." Living on the other side of that relationship gives you a perspective from that side - for better or worse. Sometimes (actually, a lot of the time) - it's both. Striving to make better choices makes you realize that wasn't necessarily done for you, or even really attempted. And that can, for real, be really, really fucking hard to deal with.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 12:08 AM on May 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
I almost certainly will regret not having had more of a storybook sort of a life when I'm old, but I never really had the option to have one. That kind of regret is different from regretting the reality. The reality was that the last relationship I had that was likely to have resulted in a kid, for example, failed spectacularly. And then I went to law school. I went through another bad breakup. And then two close family members died just before I graduated. I had to do another career switch because I couldn't find a job I didn't hate. I struggled a lot and still do with ADD and side effects from medication for that and basic stuff like housework. I now live a long way from my family, who I am not close to in the first place, by myself, and I work full-time in a new career that I love but that is probably going to demand several more big moves.
I am at significant risk with biological children for having kids with depression, anxiety, OCD, autism, and ADD, because of various things that run heavily in my family. I have friends with kids with severe versions of those things; I see how they struggle, especially if they don't have solid relationships with a coparent.
So I look at my life now and I can regret how things in general didn't fall nicely into place to have my ideal life, on a number of counts. Kids included. But do I regret not having kids? Through all that? I try to picture having had a kindergartner around the time my dad died. I try to picture juggling visitation with an ex several states away, or how I possibly could have gotten the career I have now without moving. My actual life plus a kid? That's not a thing I fantasize about. My actual life plus a kid with special needs? That would have been nightmare fuel. No kid deserves the parent I would have been at my worst points, especially without backup!
There may yet be a point in my life where kids actually work out better, but if that happens, it'll be because my life at that point really warrants it and can handle that. But I'm not going to regret the loss of the fantasy the way I would regret something I really had the option to have. If "have everything" was not really on the table for you, it's important to process that on its own and not mistake "I didn't have this option in life" for "I made a bad choice", later.
posted by Sequence at 12:46 AM on May 6, 2018 [10 favorites]
I am at significant risk with biological children for having kids with depression, anxiety, OCD, autism, and ADD, because of various things that run heavily in my family. I have friends with kids with severe versions of those things; I see how they struggle, especially if they don't have solid relationships with a coparent.
So I look at my life now and I can regret how things in general didn't fall nicely into place to have my ideal life, on a number of counts. Kids included. But do I regret not having kids? Through all that? I try to picture having had a kindergartner around the time my dad died. I try to picture juggling visitation with an ex several states away, or how I possibly could have gotten the career I have now without moving. My actual life plus a kid? That's not a thing I fantasize about. My actual life plus a kid with special needs? That would have been nightmare fuel. No kid deserves the parent I would have been at my worst points, especially without backup!
There may yet be a point in my life where kids actually work out better, but if that happens, it'll be because my life at that point really warrants it and can handle that. But I'm not going to regret the loss of the fantasy the way I would regret something I really had the option to have. If "have everything" was not really on the table for you, it's important to process that on its own and not mistake "I didn't have this option in life" for "I made a bad choice", later.
posted by Sequence at 12:46 AM on May 6, 2018 [10 favorites]
This question comes up every month on this site and the posters are always split 50-50
You can be happy either way, and the only question is what fulfills you rather than the choices others have made for themselves. I strongly urge you not to look for advice on this one.
posted by Kwadeng at 1:40 AM on May 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
You can be happy either way, and the only question is what fulfills you rather than the choices others have made for themselves. I strongly urge you not to look for advice on this one.
posted by Kwadeng at 1:40 AM on May 6, 2018 [16 favorites]
Best answer: While I have wanted kids I knew that it was a big job— one that I would need a strong partner in order to have a good home life.
Well I haven’t found such a partner and I am now too old to have kids.
I certainly don’t regret not having kids because I know I would not have been able to have them solo.
It is just one fact of my life— like where I live and how i make my money.
I have a happy life and enjoy my living parent and siblings and other people in my life.
Those are the connections that I have right now and I cherish them and find happiness in them. Don’t spend all of your time yearning for what you don’t have or might miss out on— enjoy what you have now.
posted by calgirl at 2:15 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Well I haven’t found such a partner and I am now too old to have kids.
I certainly don’t regret not having kids because I know I would not have been able to have them solo.
It is just one fact of my life— like where I live and how i make my money.
I have a happy life and enjoy my living parent and siblings and other people in my life.
Those are the connections that I have right now and I cherish them and find happiness in them. Don’t spend all of your time yearning for what you don’t have or might miss out on— enjoy what you have now.
posted by calgirl at 2:15 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Part of the reason for this question is that many folks dating in their 30s have clear ideas of whether they want kids or not. I'd like to figure out my own preferences so I don't end up happily dating someone only to discover we have an unhappy mismatch in desire to parent.
It's possible this is something you actually don't have strong preferences about! There are lots of people who have always known they want to have kids. And lots, though probably not as many, who have always known they don't want to have kids. You're not in either group. A future spouse or partner of yours may be. Maybe it's not so bad, in that case, if you go with that person's preference.
posted by escabeche at 2:58 AM on May 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
It's possible this is something you actually don't have strong preferences about! There are lots of people who have always known they want to have kids. And lots, though probably not as many, who have always known they don't want to have kids. You're not in either group. A future spouse or partner of yours may be. Maybe it's not so bad, in that case, if you go with that person's preference.
posted by escabeche at 2:58 AM on May 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
cnidaria: If you don't have children, how have you made your life full and meaningful? Are you a mentor/friend/trusted adult to other people's kids -- nieces and nephews, Big Brother/Big Sister, other volunteer stuff? If you deliberately chose not to have kids, are you still happy about that choice? Why or why not?
I do not have children, which was a choice; I'm still happy about this, if only because I never felt the slightest regret. I have never had the wish to have children, it simply always felt like a thing that other people do. This was and is always just fine.
My life is full and meaningful. I have a partner, pets, motorcycles, family and hobbies; I have a profession and belong to several different communities, both offline and online. My partner and I are renovating/building a house. I have travelled to interesting places, seen interesting stuff and learned a lot. Some of the things I do, I do because I feel that they help make the world a little bit better. I do not have much contact with children. This, too, is just fine, as I do not have a wish for that.
Yes, I do in fact feel that I'm pretty lucky. Things were always so clear with regards to this issue.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:11 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
I do not have children, which was a choice; I'm still happy about this, if only because I never felt the slightest regret. I have never had the wish to have children, it simply always felt like a thing that other people do. This was and is always just fine.
My life is full and meaningful. I have a partner, pets, motorcycles, family and hobbies; I have a profession and belong to several different communities, both offline and online. My partner and I are renovating/building a house. I have travelled to interesting places, seen interesting stuff and learned a lot. Some of the things I do, I do because I feel that they help make the world a little bit better. I do not have much contact with children. This, too, is just fine, as I do not have a wish for that.
Yes, I do in fact feel that I'm pretty lucky. Things were always so clear with regards to this issue.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:11 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
I feel like people who want kids often tend to look at having them through rose-coloured glasses.
What happens if your kid has a severe disability or illness? That happened to my aunt with her son - luckily they live in the Netherlands and he has excellent state-provided care, the likes of which just doesn't exist in the US.
What happens if your child is a bad apple, for whatever reason? I'm reminded of that book by the mother of one of the Columbine shooters.
What happens if you wind up estranged from your kid? I can't tell you how many old people live in nursing homes without ever being visited by their kids.
What happens if you wind up going through a divorce with primary custody awarded to the other parent, and you almost never see your kid because that's what's 'best' according to everyone around you? That happened to my dad and me, and I'm still suffering the consequences of a decision that was honestly thought to be in my best interests.
Perhaps I'm being a little harsh, but it's the result of twenty years of being told I WILL change my mind (no, I won't) and it's different when they're my own (yes, I can't return them if they're too much trouble).
I am 30 and firmly childfree, in case it wasn't clear yet, and I LOVE my childfree life. I'm not tied down in terms of where I choose to live. I can choose to work a low-paying job in a country I love. I don't have to be responsible for anyone but me.
As for how I fill my life... I read, I write, I spend time with my friends and non-kid family, I travel. I've never been a particularly big fan of kids, but I imagine if I was, there's Scouts or Guides, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or all the other programmes for kids already here who could use a stable adult in their lives.
posted by Tamanna at 3:54 AM on May 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
What happens if your kid has a severe disability or illness? That happened to my aunt with her son - luckily they live in the Netherlands and he has excellent state-provided care, the likes of which just doesn't exist in the US.
What happens if your child is a bad apple, for whatever reason? I'm reminded of that book by the mother of one of the Columbine shooters.
What happens if you wind up estranged from your kid? I can't tell you how many old people live in nursing homes without ever being visited by their kids.
What happens if you wind up going through a divorce with primary custody awarded to the other parent, and you almost never see your kid because that's what's 'best' according to everyone around you? That happened to my dad and me, and I'm still suffering the consequences of a decision that was honestly thought to be in my best interests.
Perhaps I'm being a little harsh, but it's the result of twenty years of being told I WILL change my mind (no, I won't) and it's different when they're my own (yes, I can't return them if they're too much trouble).
I am 30 and firmly childfree, in case it wasn't clear yet, and I LOVE my childfree life. I'm not tied down in terms of where I choose to live. I can choose to work a low-paying job in a country I love. I don't have to be responsible for anyone but me.
As for how I fill my life... I read, I write, I spend time with my friends and non-kid family, I travel. I've never been a particularly big fan of kids, but I imagine if I was, there's Scouts or Guides, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or all the other programmes for kids already here who could use a stable adult in their lives.
posted by Tamanna at 3:54 AM on May 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
I think that for me, your question contains the answer - I can’t see a single thing about having kids that would make life full or meaningful.
But that’s true for me and a partner as well. I’m married, I love my husband like crazy, and our life together is amazing - but my life was amazing before him too because I created a rich, fulfilling life for myself.
I love my friends and have very strong bonds with family (genetic and chosen), and I don’t feel like I’m missing out on a thing. (Just turned 40 last week.) I travel, I hike, I read, I dance, etc.
This is different for everyone. My brother went to the other side of the world to adopt my nephew, because that was important to him. You do you.
posted by okayokayigive at 4:20 AM on May 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
But that’s true for me and a partner as well. I’m married, I love my husband like crazy, and our life together is amazing - but my life was amazing before him too because I created a rich, fulfilling life for myself.
I love my friends and have very strong bonds with family (genetic and chosen), and I don’t feel like I’m missing out on a thing. (Just turned 40 last week.) I travel, I hike, I read, I dance, etc.
This is different for everyone. My brother went to the other side of the world to adopt my nephew, because that was important to him. You do you.
posted by okayokayigive at 4:20 AM on May 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: It seems serendipitous that your question came so close in time to this one. There is much to ponder here.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:28 AM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:28 AM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
I’m another person for whom “how do you make life meaningful without kids” makes no sense as a question. I’ve never wanted kids and do not feel at all that having them would make my life better or more meaningful in any way. The idea that Imwould have to go out of my way to somehow plan to compensate for the lack of children in my life to find meaning is baffling.
To each their own search for meaning, but to me, making the world a bit better for the people I love provides all the meaning I need. So my life is full and rich and meaningful when I do some small nice thing for my partner, or when I can help a friend with a problem, or when I can give of my time or money to support an organization that is doing good work to improve the community or the world. My life is meaningful when I work in my garden and see a small patch of land become beautiful or productive under my hands. Sometimes the people for whom I try to improve life in various ways are my friend’s kids because I love my friends and therefore their kids, but I don’t otherwise desire or seek out time with children.
I suppose that if I had a child, I would have one very intense way to make the world better for that particular person at the expense of the time, money, and energy for the varied ways I do so for various people now. To me. that’s not an appealing or desirable trade-off. Clearly it is for many people, and I fully support that and am happy for them that they’ve found their own meaning in that, but for me it would make no sense.
At just shy of 40, I have no regrets about my choice not to have children. I am extremely happy that my partner and I have always been on the same page about this.
posted by Stacey at 5:42 AM on May 6, 2018 [14 favorites]
To each their own search for meaning, but to me, making the world a bit better for the people I love provides all the meaning I need. So my life is full and rich and meaningful when I do some small nice thing for my partner, or when I can help a friend with a problem, or when I can give of my time or money to support an organization that is doing good work to improve the community or the world. My life is meaningful when I work in my garden and see a small patch of land become beautiful or productive under my hands. Sometimes the people for whom I try to improve life in various ways are my friend’s kids because I love my friends and therefore their kids, but I don’t otherwise desire or seek out time with children.
I suppose that if I had a child, I would have one very intense way to make the world better for that particular person at the expense of the time, money, and energy for the varied ways I do so for various people now. To me. that’s not an appealing or desirable trade-off. Clearly it is for many people, and I fully support that and am happy for them that they’ve found their own meaning in that, but for me it would make no sense.
At just shy of 40, I have no regrets about my choice not to have children. I am extremely happy that my partner and I have always been on the same page about this.
posted by Stacey at 5:42 AM on May 6, 2018 [14 favorites]
My standard answer is that I love my kid, and I’m really happy to have him in my life, but I would have also been happy if I’d chosen not to have kids. I didn’t have a clear preference either way, and would probably have been fine with putting the decision off indefinitely, but it was less actively wanting kids and more knowing that I’d like having kids, if that makes sense.
Having kids puts new kinds of understanding and experience in your life, but it’s not a hole to be filled - it’s more of an extra bit that gets stuck on. Holes are still there. You can have kids and still feel empty in spots. On the other hand, sometimes having a kid is a distraction from the old empty spots, and that can be enough.
I do think that parenting requires you to take a lot of little bits out of other parts of your life to make room. Free time, hobbies, and sleep take a big hit. Money, too, obviously. Social life, fitness, physical and mental health, career, travel, where you live, having “nice things,” flexibility in general, sometimes your relationship with your partner - you’ll have to take a little from most of these to make room for parenting, and you won’t be able to redistribute for years and years.
Really, they’re both good paths, and if one doesn’t feel more right for you, they might both be equally right. And in the absence of a clear pull, I’d side with not having kids - it’s definitely easier.
posted by Metroid Baby at 6:11 AM on May 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
Having kids puts new kinds of understanding and experience in your life, but it’s not a hole to be filled - it’s more of an extra bit that gets stuck on. Holes are still there. You can have kids and still feel empty in spots. On the other hand, sometimes having a kid is a distraction from the old empty spots, and that can be enough.
I do think that parenting requires you to take a lot of little bits out of other parts of your life to make room. Free time, hobbies, and sleep take a big hit. Money, too, obviously. Social life, fitness, physical and mental health, career, travel, where you live, having “nice things,” flexibility in general, sometimes your relationship with your partner - you’ll have to take a little from most of these to make room for parenting, and you won’t be able to redistribute for years and years.
Really, they’re both good paths, and if one doesn’t feel more right for you, they might both be equally right. And in the absence of a clear pull, I’d side with not having kids - it’s definitely easier.
posted by Metroid Baby at 6:11 AM on May 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
I was ambivalent for a long time about having kids and then it took us quite some time to conceive. I would have been fine if we hadn't been able to and we drew a hard line at more invasive (read: super expensive) reproductive interventions because we just didn't want it a second-mortgage-worth. As it turns out, I got knocked up on the first "well let's just try this simple thing" procedure, at the age of 38.
Which is just to say that you can feel less than baby-crazy and still make the choice to have a baby and be happy with that choice. I feel like we usually talk about this choice as if there are only two kinds of people (ok, well, women people, let's be honest--dudes seem to be assumed to be universally ambivalent and just along for the ride, for some reason): those who will feel 100% unfulfilled and lost without a child of their own, and the completely certain child-free who always knew their whole lives they didn't want kids. There's way more of a spectrum than you might think.
Even for the less than 100% all-in, though, once you make the choice and you're incubating a fetus, you have to get yourself all-in. There's a whole menu of random shit you have no control over that comes into play with babies and children and it could very much not go exactly the way you're expecting. If you think you could do that, don't strike a kid off your menu forever, but if you know yourself well and know that would not be something you could do, maybe this is not the path for you.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:01 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Which is just to say that you can feel less than baby-crazy and still make the choice to have a baby and be happy with that choice. I feel like we usually talk about this choice as if there are only two kinds of people (ok, well, women people, let's be honest--dudes seem to be assumed to be universally ambivalent and just along for the ride, for some reason): those who will feel 100% unfulfilled and lost without a child of their own, and the completely certain child-free who always knew their whole lives they didn't want kids. There's way more of a spectrum than you might think.
Even for the less than 100% all-in, though, once you make the choice and you're incubating a fetus, you have to get yourself all-in. There's a whole menu of random shit you have no control over that comes into play with babies and children and it could very much not go exactly the way you're expecting. If you think you could do that, don't strike a kid off your menu forever, but if you know yourself well and know that would not be something you could do, maybe this is not the path for you.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:01 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
what can I do or think about to help myself make this decision?
Not ask other people for advice. Every now and again this question comes up and while I sort of get wanting to get feedback, it's a terrible idea to make a decision as momentous as having kids based on internet strangers, even really smart ones.
Obviously, having kids is about a serious a decision as one can make and every single experience is different. It's really not smart to do this type of exercise where you think, "Well, the childless people said _____, and the parents said ______, and when I make a Venn diagram it's clear I should do ______."
This HAS to be your choice and you can't make that choice based on asking people, "Are you happy you became a parent?"
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 7:01 AM on May 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Not ask other people for advice. Every now and again this question comes up and while I sort of get wanting to get feedback, it's a terrible idea to make a decision as momentous as having kids based on internet strangers, even really smart ones.
Obviously, having kids is about a serious a decision as one can make and every single experience is different. It's really not smart to do this type of exercise where you think, "Well, the childless people said _____, and the parents said ______, and when I make a Venn diagram it's clear I should do ______."
This HAS to be your choice and you can't make that choice based on asking people, "Are you happy you became a parent?"
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 7:01 AM on May 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
I have two very young children. For a while in my late teens/mid 20s I didn't really want kids; later in my 20s, it became less "ugh, no" and more "yeah, sure." I've never felt that I needed kids to "give my life meaning"; it was just a thing I wanted to do, or didn't want to do. I think putting pressure on your kids to give your life meaning is unfair to them. You can certainly find meaning and purpose in the kids you have, but making it kids' responsibility to make having them "worth it" for you is not cool. (And I have friends whose parents made it clear that they did not feel their kids had been "worth it" and wow, does that do damage) Same with "having someone to care for you when you're old." I've been through enough end-of-life care with great-grandparents and grandparents that both my parents and I feel very strongly that the best possible thing we can do is set ourselves up financially and logistically to try to make any care from our children a favor, not a necessity - planning for moves into assisted living, having very clear medical care directives, having the savings to get the services we need, etc. Of course I would never just leave my parents high and dry, and I have a wonderful relationship with them that I hope will continue a very long time, but it is a gift to me that they do not consider it my inevitable responsibility to move in with them and be their 24/7 nurse, housekeeper, driver, etc. I plan to pass the same gift on to my children.
My husband and I both knew we wanted kids by the time we met. If we'd been unable to have them, I don't know what we would have ended up doing, but I would have continued finding purpose in my life through the career that I love, the travel we both love to do, and the strong friend and family connections that we have.
And the thing about having kids - people always say two things, "it teaches you unconditional love" and "it teaches you patience." Those are both true things, but I think it doesn't quite explain the whole picture. I'll try to explain how I see it, and how I think it's unique to having children vs not.
On the "unconditional love" front - we can usually list out a bunch of things we love about our partners, but the key is that they are chosen. We choose them because we feel compatible, they do things that are kind and thoughtful, they're funny, whatever. You don't choose your kids. So from that perspective, it is kind of amazing how you can just feel this powerful love for a little lump of baby who has done literally nothing for you (and who in fact has been in a 9 month parasitic relationship with you, if you are the person carrying/giving birth to children) and who has nothing about them you can deem as "compatible" or not. If you're the kind of person who enjoys contemplating this kind of thing late at night - which you will have a lot of opportunity to do, should you some day become the caretaker of a tiny baby - it is genuinely fascinating and sort of bewildering to see this in yourself.
And this segues into the "patience" thing - if you have kids, they will piss you the hell off. A lot. They are absolute little shits sometimes. And sometimes they don't mean it - like when you have an infant who you finally settle to sleep and you finally get to go back to your nice comfy bed and you shut your eyes and finally start to drift off into desperately-needed sleep and then you hear the monitor click on and the wails of a cranky baby start up again - and sometimes they do, like when you tell your three your old not to do something, and she looks at you levelly as she does exactly the thing you just told her not to do. Oh, the fury. The fury. And on one hand, even though my kids piss me off sometimes and I arguably occasionally do not like them, I do always love them. I can always (eventually) step back and realize that what they're doing is part of their development and it's not actually meant to make my life miserable and I still, inexplicably, love them like crazy. And on the other hand, this is the "it teaches you patience" thing. I'm a program manager in the tech industry and a lot of my job is wrangling a lot of difficult and stubborn personalities to get things done. Believe me, I have worked with a lot of difficult personalities - and I cope with it by mostly working with great people, and having escape methods from having to deal with the difficult people 24/7. Kids, on the other hand, you can't hang up the phone on, or leave the conference room from, or even quit your job from. When your kid is being a little shit, your #1 job is to help them learn how *not* to be a little shit. Because no one else is going to do it. You have to fight every single reflex you have to react to them the way you would an adult acting the same way, because it is your job to calm down, help them understand why what they're doing is not okay, and guide them in the right direction. Having a very young baby is hard, but having an older kid with free will (SO MUCH FREE WILL) is extraordinarily hard for me because of this. And holy crap, it is hard to do this well. I do not usually do a great job of *not* reacting and instead calming down and teaching. But I know, objectively, that I must, and so I am slowly, slowly getting better (though I will never be 100% perfect) at doing this. And in that way, I am learning a kind of patience I have never had a need for before, and that I doubt I would have learned otherwise.
Okay so this was really long but the point is: I didn't have kids in order to have meaning in my life, and I didn't have kids because I wished to learn patience and love. I just... wanted kids. *As it turns out* I have learned a lot about patience and love that I, personally, am unlikely to have learned without this, and I am really fascinated by how much I love the crap out of these little humans. But I think if I had never had kids, it would have been okay. I would have been sad, because I would not have something I wanted, but I would not be longing for the opportunity to learn a new level of patience because I'm 8 months pregnant with a lot of joint pain in a busy city with a 3 year old who has suddenly decided her legs don't work because she's overtired and thus mad at me about something. I would learn other things. I would have other things provide meaning in my life. I would love other people in different ways. And of course I would always wonder, but I also always wonder (out of curiosity, not regret) what might have happened if I'd gone to grad school, or had taken a different job when I was 26 and thus had never met my husband, or, or, or. And if I never had the opportunity to learn patience in this way, I'd still be a perfectly acceptable person who contributes to society. I simply wouldn't have this particular perspective on things.
So don't seek to think about this in terms of meaning or how you can only learn certain things in certain ways. Don't ask yourself if you want the things you hear kids provide, because there are no guarantees with kids. Just... do you want kids?
posted by olinerd at 7:26 AM on May 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
My husband and I both knew we wanted kids by the time we met. If we'd been unable to have them, I don't know what we would have ended up doing, but I would have continued finding purpose in my life through the career that I love, the travel we both love to do, and the strong friend and family connections that we have.
And the thing about having kids - people always say two things, "it teaches you unconditional love" and "it teaches you patience." Those are both true things, but I think it doesn't quite explain the whole picture. I'll try to explain how I see it, and how I think it's unique to having children vs not.
On the "unconditional love" front - we can usually list out a bunch of things we love about our partners, but the key is that they are chosen. We choose them because we feel compatible, they do things that are kind and thoughtful, they're funny, whatever. You don't choose your kids. So from that perspective, it is kind of amazing how you can just feel this powerful love for a little lump of baby who has done literally nothing for you (and who in fact has been in a 9 month parasitic relationship with you, if you are the person carrying/giving birth to children) and who has nothing about them you can deem as "compatible" or not. If you're the kind of person who enjoys contemplating this kind of thing late at night - which you will have a lot of opportunity to do, should you some day become the caretaker of a tiny baby - it is genuinely fascinating and sort of bewildering to see this in yourself.
And this segues into the "patience" thing - if you have kids, they will piss you the hell off. A lot. They are absolute little shits sometimes. And sometimes they don't mean it - like when you have an infant who you finally settle to sleep and you finally get to go back to your nice comfy bed and you shut your eyes and finally start to drift off into desperately-needed sleep and then you hear the monitor click on and the wails of a cranky baby start up again - and sometimes they do, like when you tell your three your old not to do something, and she looks at you levelly as she does exactly the thing you just told her not to do. Oh, the fury. The fury. And on one hand, even though my kids piss me off sometimes and I arguably occasionally do not like them, I do always love them. I can always (eventually) step back and realize that what they're doing is part of their development and it's not actually meant to make my life miserable and I still, inexplicably, love them like crazy. And on the other hand, this is the "it teaches you patience" thing. I'm a program manager in the tech industry and a lot of my job is wrangling a lot of difficult and stubborn personalities to get things done. Believe me, I have worked with a lot of difficult personalities - and I cope with it by mostly working with great people, and having escape methods from having to deal with the difficult people 24/7. Kids, on the other hand, you can't hang up the phone on, or leave the conference room from, or even quit your job from. When your kid is being a little shit, your #1 job is to help them learn how *not* to be a little shit. Because no one else is going to do it. You have to fight every single reflex you have to react to them the way you would an adult acting the same way, because it is your job to calm down, help them understand why what they're doing is not okay, and guide them in the right direction. Having a very young baby is hard, but having an older kid with free will (SO MUCH FREE WILL) is extraordinarily hard for me because of this. And holy crap, it is hard to do this well. I do not usually do a great job of *not* reacting and instead calming down and teaching. But I know, objectively, that I must, and so I am slowly, slowly getting better (though I will never be 100% perfect) at doing this. And in that way, I am learning a kind of patience I have never had a need for before, and that I doubt I would have learned otherwise.
Okay so this was really long but the point is: I didn't have kids in order to have meaning in my life, and I didn't have kids because I wished to learn patience and love. I just... wanted kids. *As it turns out* I have learned a lot about patience and love that I, personally, am unlikely to have learned without this, and I am really fascinated by how much I love the crap out of these little humans. But I think if I had never had kids, it would have been okay. I would have been sad, because I would not have something I wanted, but I would not be longing for the opportunity to learn a new level of patience because I'm 8 months pregnant with a lot of joint pain in a busy city with a 3 year old who has suddenly decided her legs don't work because she's overtired and thus mad at me about something. I would learn other things. I would have other things provide meaning in my life. I would love other people in different ways. And of course I would always wonder, but I also always wonder (out of curiosity, not regret) what might have happened if I'd gone to grad school, or had taken a different job when I was 26 and thus had never met my husband, or, or, or. And if I never had the opportunity to learn patience in this way, I'd still be a perfectly acceptable person who contributes to society. I simply wouldn't have this particular perspective on things.
So don't seek to think about this in terms of meaning or how you can only learn certain things in certain ways. Don't ask yourself if you want the things you hear kids provide, because there are no guarantees with kids. Just... do you want kids?
posted by olinerd at 7:26 AM on May 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
Married. In my final year is of my 30s. ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY do not want to ever have a child. Mr. Fish loves kids, wants kids and would be the best Dad ever. Our kind of compromise is to adopt an older kid and I am ok with this.
I am not worried about regret but am dealing with some horrible guilt.
I think it is our parents generation that sold us a lot of lies, honestly - like we have to buy a house and have to get married and have to have kids to be happy. My guilt revolves around trying to square what I want with what US society expects from me.
posted by floweredfish at 8:27 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
I am not worried about regret but am dealing with some horrible guilt.
I think it is our parents generation that sold us a lot of lies, honestly - like we have to buy a house and have to get married and have to have kids to be happy. My guilt revolves around trying to square what I want with what US society expects from me.
posted by floweredfish at 8:27 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I understand the "If you don't have children, how have you made your life full and meaningful?" question. Here in the US it's the week before Mother's Day and since Easter, we've been bombarded with all sorts of "the most important woman ever is a mom/the most important job in the world" messaging. And every woman I know is a mother and even women who are awful at it have somehow stumbled into having at least one kid. I'm childless by circumstance and while I've finally accepted it, there are times of the year when I'm like, "what is EVEN the point of my being around? What is the meaning of my life?"
I love and am loved. I recycle and reuse and try to plant things to make the planet better. I help when I see a need. I talk to older people. I say hello when strangers sit next to me on the train.* I give to charitable causes. I smile at the kids in my neighborhood - even the loud ones. I buy good candy for Halloween. I let drivers in front of me when they're sweating because they're in the wrong lane to make the turn they need. I adopt pain-in-the-ass dogs. I pull more than one name from the "Giving Tree." I stand up for others at work. My husband's a teacher, so we spend our own money regularly on school supplies and prom shoes and the occasional coat.
And ... that's it. And the thing is, I'm not really stretching to do these things - parents do them too. When I drop over, I won't have the accomplishment of having raised a Nobel Prize Winner. However, I will have made the day better for thousands of people (and a few pain-in-the-ass dogs) in tiny ways, and that's how I'm making my life meaningful.
*and then only talk if they want to, I'm not a monster.
posted by kimberussell at 8:38 AM on May 6, 2018 [14 favorites]
I love and am loved. I recycle and reuse and try to plant things to make the planet better. I help when I see a need. I talk to older people. I say hello when strangers sit next to me on the train.* I give to charitable causes. I smile at the kids in my neighborhood - even the loud ones. I buy good candy for Halloween. I let drivers in front of me when they're sweating because they're in the wrong lane to make the turn they need. I adopt pain-in-the-ass dogs. I pull more than one name from the "Giving Tree." I stand up for others at work. My husband's a teacher, so we spend our own money regularly on school supplies and prom shoes and the occasional coat.
And ... that's it. And the thing is, I'm not really stretching to do these things - parents do them too. When I drop over, I won't have the accomplishment of having raised a Nobel Prize Winner. However, I will have made the day better for thousands of people (and a few pain-in-the-ass dogs) in tiny ways, and that's how I'm making my life meaningful.
*and then only talk if they want to, I'm not a monster.
posted by kimberussell at 8:38 AM on May 6, 2018 [14 favorites]
Best answer: I'm gonna take a different tack on this: right now you're single and you don't want to have kids while single. While I would generally agree on "I'd like to figure out my own preferences so I don't end up happily dating someone only to discover we have an unhappy mismatch in desire to parent," what if you're flexible? What if you have kids with someone if the guy wants kids (assuming it's a guy) and don't if he doesn't? If you don't feel strongly either way and are more likely to go for it if a future SO wants to, why not just kind of go with what life offers you? I think that might be a lot easier than say, being adamant that you don't want kids because that tends to rule out 90% of the population.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:39 AM on May 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:39 AM on May 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: My life is meaningful despite having kids.
My kids' lives did not give my life meaning. Their lives are their own, and it feels to me kind of like boundary failure to take meaning for my life from their existence or happiness. The fact that they are my kids does not make them more important to me in terms of life's great questions compared to anyone else who is a child. I'm not living vicariously through their successes or their happiness nor experiencing despair and purposelessness over their failures and sorrows.
Raising my kids, of course, took thousands of hours of work, and thousands of dollars. It was a heck of a commitment. I had kids because I wanted kids. But once embarked on the commitment to them, there was no backing out and it had to be primary. That meant that developing myself - even growing to understand myself better - had to take a back seat to the urgency that kids have. You can't postpone changing a baby.
In the very long view, kids are a dead end. Within seventy generations your DNA will be so diluted that your descendants will be more other people's kids than yours. In a hundred thousand years there will probably be no descendants of the human species. So, given the long view, looking after and supporting everyone and your entire cosmos, is the way to find meaning, rather than just one small set of people. Given the close range view, you will want to find meaning within yourself, rather than within other people, because you are the person you can most and best work with, and you have less ability to influence others, and the most to influence and understand yourself.
it may be what will give you the most meaning is hedonism - just standing there with your eyes closed, feeling your lungs expand and loving it, loving it, how sweet it is to breathe, to not be in too much pain to be aware of your breathing, to know that you may get to eat sometime soon.
Or it maybe that what will give you the most meaning is creativity or creation - learning about and teaching other people about something irrelevant, like how to use a hockey stick, or learning about and teaching something essential like organizing people and creating a movement dedicated to reducing carbon in the atmosphere. It may be that you need to knit a vast number of yellow yarn ducks, or sew washable menstrual pads for people who need them or write bad songs about your own childhood. Those are all valid places to find meaning also.
It might be that you need to contribute to your group to feel that you belong, and belonging is what will give you the most meaning. That's a valid place to find meaning.
If you have kids you can use them to find a framework for meaning. And often kids are an easy place to find that framework. But you could also use anything else in your environment to find meaning. Maybe you work a crappy job at a movie theatre concession stand. But you could choose to find meaning by being the best possible popcorn service clerk, to get people their popcorn as smoothly and swiftly as possible while meeting their eyes and really recognizing and validating them. So it doesn't matter what you use, your hobbies, your religion, your family. You can make meaning out of anything that is important to you.
What if you have kids so they will provide meaning to your life and they don't? They won't automatically. What they will provide is soggy, stinky wet diapers. So if you have kids you will have to find meaning around soggy stinky wet diapers or in soggy stinky wet diapers. You may be overwhelmed with love for them, you may be able to provide for them and launch future saints and geniuses who bring a revolution of love to the world, and yet still not find meaning from your kids. It's not automatic. Kids are just other people, infinitely valuable other people, but just other people with their own essential, valuable lives. If you plan to find meaning from your kids and don't find it there, what do you do next? Regret having kids? If that's why you want to have kids you are putting much too much weight on things - on people, who cannot bear the weight of your need for meaning.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:02 AM on May 6, 2018 [26 favorites]
My kids' lives did not give my life meaning. Their lives are their own, and it feels to me kind of like boundary failure to take meaning for my life from their existence or happiness. The fact that they are my kids does not make them more important to me in terms of life's great questions compared to anyone else who is a child. I'm not living vicariously through their successes or their happiness nor experiencing despair and purposelessness over their failures and sorrows.
Raising my kids, of course, took thousands of hours of work, and thousands of dollars. It was a heck of a commitment. I had kids because I wanted kids. But once embarked on the commitment to them, there was no backing out and it had to be primary. That meant that developing myself - even growing to understand myself better - had to take a back seat to the urgency that kids have. You can't postpone changing a baby.
In the very long view, kids are a dead end. Within seventy generations your DNA will be so diluted that your descendants will be more other people's kids than yours. In a hundred thousand years there will probably be no descendants of the human species. So, given the long view, looking after and supporting everyone and your entire cosmos, is the way to find meaning, rather than just one small set of people. Given the close range view, you will want to find meaning within yourself, rather than within other people, because you are the person you can most and best work with, and you have less ability to influence others, and the most to influence and understand yourself.
it may be what will give you the most meaning is hedonism - just standing there with your eyes closed, feeling your lungs expand and loving it, loving it, how sweet it is to breathe, to not be in too much pain to be aware of your breathing, to know that you may get to eat sometime soon.
Or it maybe that what will give you the most meaning is creativity or creation - learning about and teaching other people about something irrelevant, like how to use a hockey stick, or learning about and teaching something essential like organizing people and creating a movement dedicated to reducing carbon in the atmosphere. It may be that you need to knit a vast number of yellow yarn ducks, or sew washable menstrual pads for people who need them or write bad songs about your own childhood. Those are all valid places to find meaning also.
It might be that you need to contribute to your group to feel that you belong, and belonging is what will give you the most meaning. That's a valid place to find meaning.
If you have kids you can use them to find a framework for meaning. And often kids are an easy place to find that framework. But you could also use anything else in your environment to find meaning. Maybe you work a crappy job at a movie theatre concession stand. But you could choose to find meaning by being the best possible popcorn service clerk, to get people their popcorn as smoothly and swiftly as possible while meeting their eyes and really recognizing and validating them. So it doesn't matter what you use, your hobbies, your religion, your family. You can make meaning out of anything that is important to you.
What if you have kids so they will provide meaning to your life and they don't? They won't automatically. What they will provide is soggy, stinky wet diapers. So if you have kids you will have to find meaning around soggy stinky wet diapers or in soggy stinky wet diapers. You may be overwhelmed with love for them, you may be able to provide for them and launch future saints and geniuses who bring a revolution of love to the world, and yet still not find meaning from your kids. It's not automatic. Kids are just other people, infinitely valuable other people, but just other people with their own essential, valuable lives. If you plan to find meaning from your kids and don't find it there, what do you do next? Regret having kids? If that's why you want to have kids you are putting much too much weight on things - on people, who cannot bear the weight of your need for meaning.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:02 AM on May 6, 2018 [26 favorites]
Best answer: If you don't know the answer to this question it's because you don't have enough information yet to make up your mind.
You need to actively go out and experiment and get more information. Not just reading, but spending time with kids. Not just kids, but other things that might give your life meaning. You need to experiment with serving people, with doing things for A Cause, with letting yourself go and creating bad stuff that couldn't possibly have meaning to anyone else but you, with looking at things that are vast and beyond your conception, as when you read about chaos theory, or mesofauna, or history, or physics.
If you don't know and can't decide it's because you aren't ready to decide.
Make up your mind that you will definitely have kids even if you have to do it absolutely alone with the help of a surrogate, but will never, ever be an artist, or be a contributor to the American Spring or go traveling without bringing children with you. Spend a month working from the assumption that you will spend your life on parenting.
Then, a month later, change your mind and decide that you will never, ever have kids. You will never hold a baby that is your own, never sit in emerg with your kid, never learn to cut a child's hair, never tutor a child in geometry, never look at the photo of a child in your wallet... And then after a month of this childless future, stop and think which month made you sadder or more resentful or more scared.
This will give you a better idea of if you want kids or not, but it will not help at all in figuring out if you will find meaning in having kids.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:12 AM on May 6, 2018
You need to actively go out and experiment and get more information. Not just reading, but spending time with kids. Not just kids, but other things that might give your life meaning. You need to experiment with serving people, with doing things for A Cause, with letting yourself go and creating bad stuff that couldn't possibly have meaning to anyone else but you, with looking at things that are vast and beyond your conception, as when you read about chaos theory, or mesofauna, or history, or physics.
If you don't know and can't decide it's because you aren't ready to decide.
Make up your mind that you will definitely have kids even if you have to do it absolutely alone with the help of a surrogate, but will never, ever be an artist, or be a contributor to the American Spring or go traveling without bringing children with you. Spend a month working from the assumption that you will spend your life on parenting.
Then, a month later, change your mind and decide that you will never, ever have kids. You will never hold a baby that is your own, never sit in emerg with your kid, never learn to cut a child's hair, never tutor a child in geometry, never look at the photo of a child in your wallet... And then after a month of this childless future, stop and think which month made you sadder or more resentful or more scared.
This will give you a better idea of if you want kids or not, but it will not help at all in figuring out if you will find meaning in having kids.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:12 AM on May 6, 2018
I didn't feel any particular desire for a baby, although I vaguely knew I imagined myself having a family when old and grey.
Trying to decide if I was ready to have kids and reading all these parents being like, "it's so amazing and speshul and my baby is the love of my life!!111!!!" didn't really help me. My feeling was that parents all sounded like cultists tbh.
I'm saying this as a preface to why I feel like it's hard to be given, in advance, the information that would help "make an informed decision".
1. Because everyone is different and one parent's experience is not going to necessarily match your own and
2. Because some of the feelings involved are very hard to believe in without experiencing them.
I did not fall immediately in love with my baby-- I say this with relief, the thought of falling in love with essentially a stranger continues to creep me out. However, no one had warned me what it's like when a newborn baby looks at you in the minutes right after being born. I had never in my life had someone look at me with such utter, complete, total trust. The thought of betraying that trust was awful.
(My newborn baby also smelled amazing to me-- I would sniff her hair and feel a bit high. This lasted pretty much through the incredibly boring stage, so around 4 months, and then faded)
And then, over the ensuing months, I did fall in love with my baby, hard, accompanied by a much more intense infatuation than any I've experienced. I came into parenthood with, shall we say, low expectations. I'd heard all about the sleepless nights and the aggravation and the stress and the misery. I'm not going to say no one told me about the good parts-- people did-- it was just really hard to believe them, because I could easily imagine how miserable it would be to be sleep-deprived, and I could not easily imagine what it feels like when my daughter runs over to give me a hug, and snuggles her head against my cheek, and pats my back slightly with her hand. I had absolutely no idea what it would be like just watching her putter around her toy kitchen and then bring me a pan full of pom-poms. My former self is rolling her eyes at this right now-- it just sounds boring, before. I don't feel like there's a way to convey the experience of delight. I'm still just surprised by it myself, each day.
What I mean is, if I was writing this comment to my former self, it wouldn't help. I wouldn't be able to adequately imagine the real pros on the pros/cons list. It would just be another parent yammering away about how wonderful and glorious parenthood is and me being like... ok... but dirty diapers... and no sleep... and having to constantly be responsible for someone....
All that said: if there was one piece of information I would convey to my past self, that would actually be helpful and reassuring to her (since the above, like I said, is unconveyable)-- it's that it's totally possible to maintain your identity after becoming a parent. I make time for my hobbies. I have a job and a life outside my baby. These were things that scared me before giving birth, and for sure there are people who find that "parent" does eat their entire life, but I knew I needed something else and if that's something you know about yourself then it is completely doable to make that happen.
posted by Cozybee at 9:25 AM on May 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
Trying to decide if I was ready to have kids and reading all these parents being like, "it's so amazing and speshul and my baby is the love of my life!!111!!!" didn't really help me. My feeling was that parents all sounded like cultists tbh.
I'm saying this as a preface to why I feel like it's hard to be given, in advance, the information that would help "make an informed decision".
1. Because everyone is different and one parent's experience is not going to necessarily match your own and
2. Because some of the feelings involved are very hard to believe in without experiencing them.
I did not fall immediately in love with my baby-- I say this with relief, the thought of falling in love with essentially a stranger continues to creep me out. However, no one had warned me what it's like when a newborn baby looks at you in the minutes right after being born. I had never in my life had someone look at me with such utter, complete, total trust. The thought of betraying that trust was awful.
(My newborn baby also smelled amazing to me-- I would sniff her hair and feel a bit high. This lasted pretty much through the incredibly boring stage, so around 4 months, and then faded)
And then, over the ensuing months, I did fall in love with my baby, hard, accompanied by a much more intense infatuation than any I've experienced. I came into parenthood with, shall we say, low expectations. I'd heard all about the sleepless nights and the aggravation and the stress and the misery. I'm not going to say no one told me about the good parts-- people did-- it was just really hard to believe them, because I could easily imagine how miserable it would be to be sleep-deprived, and I could not easily imagine what it feels like when my daughter runs over to give me a hug, and snuggles her head against my cheek, and pats my back slightly with her hand. I had absolutely no idea what it would be like just watching her putter around her toy kitchen and then bring me a pan full of pom-poms. My former self is rolling her eyes at this right now-- it just sounds boring, before. I don't feel like there's a way to convey the experience of delight. I'm still just surprised by it myself, each day.
What I mean is, if I was writing this comment to my former self, it wouldn't help. I wouldn't be able to adequately imagine the real pros on the pros/cons list. It would just be another parent yammering away about how wonderful and glorious parenthood is and me being like... ok... but dirty diapers... and no sleep... and having to constantly be responsible for someone....
All that said: if there was one piece of information I would convey to my past self, that would actually be helpful and reassuring to her (since the above, like I said, is unconveyable)-- it's that it's totally possible to maintain your identity after becoming a parent. I make time for my hobbies. I have a job and a life outside my baby. These were things that scared me before giving birth, and for sure there are people who find that "parent" does eat their entire life, but I knew I needed something else and if that's something you know about yourself then it is completely doable to make that happen.
posted by Cozybee at 9:25 AM on May 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
Thank you Jane the Brown. I came in to say, I love having had Kids and my kids have given me tons, like my oldest fell in love with martial arts and now I’m a martial artist!
But meaning...that I am still working on. My kids are my responsibility and my family but raising them is something I do while I am human, not the answer to being human.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:28 AM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
But meaning...that I am still working on. My kids are my responsibility and my family but raising them is something I do while I am human, not the answer to being human.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:28 AM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Hi there - your question reminded me a lot of myself, so I thought I’d chime in. I’m currently 8 months pregnant, due really soon (agh!) with my first, and am in my 30s. When I originally tackled the question of kids more than a decade ago, my answer was firmly on the ‘no’ side. In fact, originally, even the question of marriage for me was kind of off the table - I didn’t really want it. My feelings started to change when I met my current partner (now my husband). The funny thing is, after being with him awhile and talking about kids or no kids, I still was feeling like I didn’t want kids per se, but the idea of having his kid, having a family with him in particular started appealing to me. We got pregnant by accident but now I’m actually looking forward with excitement to meet our son, and see where life takes us.
I guess my point is, if you’re on the fence, maybe just be flexible. See where life takes you, and what kind of people you meet, and go from there. And, I agree with a lot of the others who talk about how life can be meaningful either way. I’m certain that without this baby, my life with my husband would still have been very meaningful, because we would have made it so. I also agree that people really shouldn’t find meaning in their kids - kids are their own people, and I’m kind of viewing my responsibility towards this baby as helping him become an independent adult who is fully his own person one day.
I wrangled with this decision for years, asked so many people their opinions on whether or not I should have kids, got all kinds of mixed responses, felt even more confused for a long time, and now I’m just going with life’s flow and it feels right. People try to plan out everything (I’m still this person hah!) and having a solid plan for anything, including kids, doesn’t guarantee happiness or meaning in ones life, it just makes us feel like we’re more in control. I hope this all helps, good luck, I know how hard this is!
posted by FireFountain at 10:01 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
I guess my point is, if you’re on the fence, maybe just be flexible. See where life takes you, and what kind of people you meet, and go from there. And, I agree with a lot of the others who talk about how life can be meaningful either way. I’m certain that without this baby, my life with my husband would still have been very meaningful, because we would have made it so. I also agree that people really shouldn’t find meaning in their kids - kids are their own people, and I’m kind of viewing my responsibility towards this baby as helping him become an independent adult who is fully his own person one day.
I wrangled with this decision for years, asked so many people their opinions on whether or not I should have kids, got all kinds of mixed responses, felt even more confused for a long time, and now I’m just going with life’s flow and it feels right. People try to plan out everything (I’m still this person hah!) and having a solid plan for anything, including kids, doesn’t guarantee happiness or meaning in ones life, it just makes us feel like we’re more in control. I hope this all helps, good luck, I know how hard this is!
posted by FireFountain at 10:01 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Having kids means you have family, someday they may marry and you may have extended family. In many cultures, kids take over the farm or business, care for aging parents. You have someone to love in way that will change you in many ways.
If you aren't sure you want kids, consider that there are a lot of humans on the planet, probably too many, and not having kids is a better choice for the survival of the species at this time. You might have an ordinary kid with the usual expense and effort, diapers to change, sleepless nights, legos to step on, somebody to teach how to fish or go camping with. You might have a gifted child who will be a brilliant researcher who finds the treatment for a virus. You might have a child with a heart defect who will need surgeries and lots of expensive care. Or who grows up to be schizophrenic, and needs lots of extremely difficult care and love. I'd recommend not having kids unless you are sure you're willing to face the difficult options.
posted by theora55 at 10:01 AM on May 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
If you aren't sure you want kids, consider that there are a lot of humans on the planet, probably too many, and not having kids is a better choice for the survival of the species at this time. You might have an ordinary kid with the usual expense and effort, diapers to change, sleepless nights, legos to step on, somebody to teach how to fish or go camping with. You might have a gifted child who will be a brilliant researcher who finds the treatment for a virus. You might have a child with a heart defect who will need surgeries and lots of expensive care. Or who grows up to be schizophrenic, and needs lots of extremely difficult care and love. I'd recommend not having kids unless you are sure you're willing to face the difficult options.
posted by theora55 at 10:01 AM on May 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
If you don't actively want to have kids, if there isn't already a need, then don't have kids.
That said, as a person who never wanted and never had kids, I've ended up as a sounding board for parents (mostly mothers) who need to vent about the downside.
There's also the story of the women who never wanted kids until she fell in love and wanted children with that person. Heard that more than once and always from people who appear to enjoy their kids as people.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 10:35 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
That said, as a person who never wanted and never had kids, I've ended up as a sounding board for parents (mostly mothers) who need to vent about the downside.
There's also the story of the women who never wanted kids until she fell in love and wanted children with that person. Heard that more than once and always from people who appear to enjoy their kids as people.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 10:35 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
I never wanted children. I don’t have them. It’s too late for me to have them. I’m single by choice. I don’t feel the slightest regret, ever, about those decisions. I have great friends, a good job, hobbies and interests. I volunteer and give back to my community. I have never once thought that having children would make my life more “meaningful.”
posted by greermahoney at 11:11 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by greermahoney at 11:11 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for all your perspectives. It's helpful to hear about other people's lives to see some of what the range of human experiences offers.
I have a fulfilling career in an industry that is meaningful to me (construction plumber/drafter -- hard to argue with clean water and sanitation) designing and building hospitals and schools and data centers. I have the opportunity to eventually transition from drafting/detailing/design to engineering and work on implementing new sustainable building technology and sustainable code change. I have hobbies, probably too many -- art, music, scuba, homeownership -- and a few close friends, though many of them are scattered around the country. And, up until a recent breakup with a partner who was kid-crazy and wanted to be the stay-at-home-dad, I thought that I definitely wanted kids. But I look at questions like this one and I just... don't want that level of stress and chaos for my life. I do want to examine my reasons for why/why not kids, even if the answer ends up being "maybe" and "be okay with ambiguity".
posted by cnidaria at 11:21 AM on May 6, 2018
I have a fulfilling career in an industry that is meaningful to me (construction plumber/drafter -- hard to argue with clean water and sanitation) designing and building hospitals and schools and data centers. I have the opportunity to eventually transition from drafting/detailing/design to engineering and work on implementing new sustainable building technology and sustainable code change. I have hobbies, probably too many -- art, music, scuba, homeownership -- and a few close friends, though many of them are scattered around the country. And, up until a recent breakup with a partner who was kid-crazy and wanted to be the stay-at-home-dad, I thought that I definitely wanted kids. But I look at questions like this one and I just... don't want that level of stress and chaos for my life. I do want to examine my reasons for why/why not kids, even if the answer ends up being "maybe" and "be okay with ambiguity".
posted by cnidaria at 11:21 AM on May 6, 2018
Response by poster: The fantasy that lives in my head is having a daughter (I know, too specific) to show how to look at microbes under the microscope and planets through the telescope, someone I can teach mathematics and trap shooting and mechanical skills and camping skills and all that to. But maybe I don't need my own kids to find a kid who wants to learn the stuff that I have to teach, and maybe if I had a kid they wouldn't even be interested.
posted by cnidaria at 11:26 AM on May 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by cnidaria at 11:26 AM on May 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I just read your update, and I want to tell you - please do NOT have a kid just because you want someone to share your interests.
I love my mom, but. She and my grandma love sewing and other crafts (they QUILT. In the TROPICS.) She and my dad are engineers, I ran from STEM at first opportunity to become a translator. My dad loves the Beatles, I could go the rest of my life without hearing those overrated mediocre white boys again.
TL;DR - DNA is not destiny and expecting offspring to be your mini-me is just going to lead to disappointment and therapy bills. Have you considered leading a Girl Scout troop, or otherwise getting involved? I would have been THRILLED to learn all of that growing up, and I would have loved having a cool non-parent adult in my life!
posted by Tamanna at 11:40 AM on May 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
I love my mom, but. She and my grandma love sewing and other crafts (they QUILT. In the TROPICS.) She and my dad are engineers, I ran from STEM at first opportunity to become a translator. My dad loves the Beatles, I could go the rest of my life without hearing those overrated mediocre white boys again.
TL;DR - DNA is not destiny and expecting offspring to be your mini-me is just going to lead to disappointment and therapy bills. Have you considered leading a Girl Scout troop, or otherwise getting involved? I would have been THRILLED to learn all of that growing up, and I would have loved having a cool non-parent adult in my life!
posted by Tamanna at 11:40 AM on May 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
Re the follow-up, seconding Tamanna big-time (my kid is nothing like me in many many continually surprising ways and also is a boy which, like you, I was for some weird reason not counting on), and also re the reference to that other post, having multiple kids is definitely different from a singleton. I only had one, by choice (I was an only, and I've always known that if I had kids at all, it would be kid-singular unless twins) and it is a way different experience to go through the requisite four or so years of what happened/who am I/how do I work this that happens after you become a parent than it is to do that multiple times and stretch that experience out to a decade. Some people have a desire to have more than one kid and they are okay with going through that in order to achieve the family they desire, but it's not a requirement. You can just have one.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:52 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:52 AM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Yeah, I'm aware kids don't always share their parents' interests, even if some of my friends have family relationships where they make music together or whatever. I shared my parents' interests but my parents were too busy to teach me much about any of them, so here I am at 30 turning into my mother and father (mom: art, dad: shotgun sports, scuba diving, engineering).
I am hoping to get involved with Big Brother/Big Sister in the next year or two -- they have a long wait list in my area for matching you with a kiddo. And maybe Girl Scouts have improved, or there's another scouting alternative. I hated it growing up but maybe my troop was just useless. I suppose that being the Cool Non-Parent Adult for kids who can choose on their own to come to you and are actually interested in what you have to teach might make more sense for me AND the kids -- at least at this point in my life -- than parenting.
posted by cnidaria at 11:54 AM on May 6, 2018
I am hoping to get involved with Big Brother/Big Sister in the next year or two -- they have a long wait list in my area for matching you with a kiddo. And maybe Girl Scouts have improved, or there's another scouting alternative. I hated it growing up but maybe my troop was just useless. I suppose that being the Cool Non-Parent Adult for kids who can choose on their own to come to you and are actually interested in what you have to teach might make more sense for me AND the kids -- at least at this point in my life -- than parenting.
posted by cnidaria at 11:54 AM on May 6, 2018
I'm in my mid-30s, and I feel like I have a similar love for my cat as some people have for their children. I don't want kids, and neither does my husband. I'm glad other people want children and have children, because probably the only thing that would get me to consider changing my mind is if the future of humanity depended on my at least trying to have a child. But it seems like enough people have that covered to where I shouldn't force myself to procreate against my will.
While I could come up with all sorts of rational reasons for why I don't want kids, the basic fact is I really just don't. It's a gut feeling. And I assume most, or at least many, people have children because they get to a point in their lives where they either want to or they feel like they have no other choice.
It's cool to want to work with children and educate children without having children of your own, if that is what you want to do. But working with children isn't necessary for having a fulfilling life either. There are so many big and small ways to make this a better world.
posted by wondermouse at 12:05 PM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
While I could come up with all sorts of rational reasons for why I don't want kids, the basic fact is I really just don't. It's a gut feeling. And I assume most, or at least many, people have children because they get to a point in their lives where they either want to or they feel like they have no other choice.
It's cool to want to work with children and educate children without having children of your own, if that is what you want to do. But working with children isn't necessary for having a fulfilling life either. There are so many big and small ways to make this a better world.
posted by wondermouse at 12:05 PM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I'm sitting on the sofa on a rainy Sunday with my kid. We're going to make cupcakes soon.
When I met her, I had the curious feeling that you see described in old school scifi novels when someone meets a magical horse or dragon. Like, hi, I know you, I recognize you, and all the potential in you, and I will love you forever. A child contains the interesting distinction from a magical dragon or horse in that they will someday outgrow you, if you have done your job right, and so there's an inherent bittersweetness. But every day with my child, my life gets richer and more complex and more interesting. That's not to say other lives aren't rich, complex, or interesting, but it's been an experience I'm glad to have had, even though I was on the fence. She is trying to cover my face with a blanket right now and bouncing around like a goof and I sometimes teach her about science but more often she asks me to make up stories about a fictional princess she's decided lives in the sky. She's great! She keeps me on my toes.
Our house is messy and our lives are chaotic and we're introverts, so we've decided to just have one kid, but dang I do like this one kid, and our relationship has been super enriching.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:15 PM on May 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
When I met her, I had the curious feeling that you see described in old school scifi novels when someone meets a magical horse or dragon. Like, hi, I know you, I recognize you, and all the potential in you, and I will love you forever. A child contains the interesting distinction from a magical dragon or horse in that they will someday outgrow you, if you have done your job right, and so there's an inherent bittersweetness. But every day with my child, my life gets richer and more complex and more interesting. That's not to say other lives aren't rich, complex, or interesting, but it's been an experience I'm glad to have had, even though I was on the fence. She is trying to cover my face with a blanket right now and bouncing around like a goof and I sometimes teach her about science but more often she asks me to make up stories about a fictional princess she's decided lives in the sky. She's great! She keeps me on my toes.
Our house is messy and our lives are chaotic and we're introverts, so we've decided to just have one kid, but dang I do like this one kid, and our relationship has been super enriching.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:15 PM on May 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I'm 40 and I have decided not to have children - I made this call about 3 or 4 years ago.
People kept telling me that I'd just want to have kids eventually, but it just never happened. When I started to turn the corner into my late 30s, I realized that the urge had not struck me, but that my window would close eventually. I started mulling it over, wondering what I wanted, worrying over it, looking at my life and thinking about the possibilities.
To be honest, I was driving myself a little crazy. So one day I thought, THAT'S IT. I DECIDE I WANT KIDS. What does that mean for my life? As a thought exercise. What needs to change? Well. I'd need to end my relationship. My boyfriend had said he did not want kids and while who knows where he'd be in the future, if I really wanted them, we'd have to break up and I'd have to start online dating for someone who DID. I'd need to switch jobs into something more stable and less time consuming. I am very passionate about my career. My apartment was not going to work. I'd need to start looking at places I could move where I could raise a baby eventually. Etc etc.
I woke up the next morning ready to embark on this journey of changing my life to be baby-ready and my inner voice was like NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! NO NO NO NO NO NO. YOU DO NOT WANT THIS!!!!!!!!
Man it was so clear. I have moved ahead continuing on my path with this knowledge since that day. I moved to a new city. I bought a house that is full of toddler traps. My boyfriend and I are still together and we love our time together. We have 3 cats. We're considering a move to Europe. My career is going great. I am happy as a clam.
I will admit that there are times when I feel sad, see a cute baby and think about what I won't have, but it does not rank as something I would trade this life for. I also realize that if I were to get to the point in years to come where I feel like parenting is something I am missing, there are many ways to get that relationship and fulfillment in my life without having a baby on my own.
posted by pazazygeek at 2:01 PM on May 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
People kept telling me that I'd just want to have kids eventually, but it just never happened. When I started to turn the corner into my late 30s, I realized that the urge had not struck me, but that my window would close eventually. I started mulling it over, wondering what I wanted, worrying over it, looking at my life and thinking about the possibilities.
To be honest, I was driving myself a little crazy. So one day I thought, THAT'S IT. I DECIDE I WANT KIDS. What does that mean for my life? As a thought exercise. What needs to change? Well. I'd need to end my relationship. My boyfriend had said he did not want kids and while who knows where he'd be in the future, if I really wanted them, we'd have to break up and I'd have to start online dating for someone who DID. I'd need to switch jobs into something more stable and less time consuming. I am very passionate about my career. My apartment was not going to work. I'd need to start looking at places I could move where I could raise a baby eventually. Etc etc.
I woke up the next morning ready to embark on this journey of changing my life to be baby-ready and my inner voice was like NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! NO NO NO NO NO NO. YOU DO NOT WANT THIS!!!!!!!!
Man it was so clear. I have moved ahead continuing on my path with this knowledge since that day. I moved to a new city. I bought a house that is full of toddler traps. My boyfriend and I are still together and we love our time together. We have 3 cats. We're considering a move to Europe. My career is going great. I am happy as a clam.
I will admit that there are times when I feel sad, see a cute baby and think about what I won't have, but it does not rank as something I would trade this life for. I also realize that if I were to get to the point in years to come where I feel like parenting is something I am missing, there are many ways to get that relationship and fulfillment in my life without having a baby on my own.
posted by pazazygeek at 2:01 PM on May 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
So I just had my first kid (3 weeks ago, ahh!) and i had been ambivalent about kids for as long as I could remember. My husband was more excited than I was (and so far is a fabulous dad!). But as I was trying to figure out o my own whether this was what we wanted in our lives, I remembered an episode of parks and rec where two characters are talking about this exact subject and one says "you have kids because you want to add people to your team" and I know that you can't force a kid to become someone on your team but....it's kind of like that for me. Our little dude is here because I love my husband and wanted to add someone to our team. And so far he is a pretty fabulous addition.
posted by ruhroh at 4:22 PM on May 6, 2018
posted by ruhroh at 4:22 PM on May 6, 2018
Best answer: I do not have children. I do not intend to have children.
But I need kids in my life. So I coach high school debate, and I volunteer at a crisis nursery, and those kids are all important to me. And then I go home to my animal-full house with my husband, and that's good.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 4:23 PM on May 6, 2018
But I need kids in my life. So I coach high school debate, and I volunteer at a crisis nursery, and those kids are all important to me. And then I go home to my animal-full house with my husband, and that's good.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 4:23 PM on May 6, 2018
Parenting in U.S. at this point in history ... seems somewhat insane for average working people
This is absolutely true. I have been a single parent (now partnered) and it is insanely hard really both ways. On the other hand... it was probably much harder to be a parent in many (most?) other times in history for most people. Even getting away from the pressures of capitalist societies, imagine how tough it was to raise a kid in a small tribe when you had a drought year or natural disaster or disease?
I guess I just want to give you permission to not have a kid if you don't want to. But also say, for me, although parenting is fucking hard, it is the thing that has given shape to my life over the last 15 years and I imagine for the rest of my life. It's not the only thing, it's not always even the most important thing, but it is at the core THE thing. Parenting is a transformative experience that makes you into someone new. For me, I wanted that, and I'm glad I have it.
posted by latkes at 5:49 PM on May 6, 2018
This is absolutely true. I have been a single parent (now partnered) and it is insanely hard really both ways. On the other hand... it was probably much harder to be a parent in many (most?) other times in history for most people. Even getting away from the pressures of capitalist societies, imagine how tough it was to raise a kid in a small tribe when you had a drought year or natural disaster or disease?
I guess I just want to give you permission to not have a kid if you don't want to. But also say, for me, although parenting is fucking hard, it is the thing that has given shape to my life over the last 15 years and I imagine for the rest of my life. It's not the only thing, it's not always even the most important thing, but it is at the core THE thing. Parenting is a transformative experience that makes you into someone new. For me, I wanted that, and I'm glad I have it.
posted by latkes at 5:49 PM on May 6, 2018
Best answer: I was also deeply ambivalent about having kids. I'd never felt particularly maternal, Guyagonalize's career had made a mockery of longterm planning for the majority of our adult lives, and most of our friends are childfree by choice, so the question of whether or not to procreate was always a surprisingly sanguine 50/50 split for my 33 childless years. Then I had a kid a few months ago, and while I'm happy to report that I like my kid way more than I expected to and take an immeasurable amount of joy in being a parent, I don't think my life would have been somehow incomplete had we decided not to have a child. Life is unpredictable, and kids certainly don't make that any less true.
There's no doubt that introducing a baby to our lives has been a huge shift, and I am 100% dedicated to my kid, but I think of it a bit like permanently moving to a new country where I don't speak the language. Lots of people never "move", and that's totally fine. Some people are forced to. Others, like me, choose to. The learning curve has been steep and there's an entirely different routine, but I'm fortunate enough to have plenty of support, so now I'm adapting and acquiring the necessary skills for my new environment, but I didn't suddenly stop being me, and there was nothing wrong with the old life I used to lead. It's just not where I'm at now, so even though I can go back and visit my old haunts, they're not home anymore. Would I have been happier not "moving"? Maybe? Who knows? My new life is great, but that wasn't a given and it's not a guarantee for the future; neither is it certain that everything would've been fine had everything stayed the same. The world is going to keep spinning regardless of what I do, so all I can do is make the most of my life and try to make it a worthwhile ride for my kid, particularly since they didn't get a choice about coming along.
posted by Diagonalize at 6:05 PM on May 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
There's no doubt that introducing a baby to our lives has been a huge shift, and I am 100% dedicated to my kid, but I think of it a bit like permanently moving to a new country where I don't speak the language. Lots of people never "move", and that's totally fine. Some people are forced to. Others, like me, choose to. The learning curve has been steep and there's an entirely different routine, but I'm fortunate enough to have plenty of support, so now I'm adapting and acquiring the necessary skills for my new environment, but I didn't suddenly stop being me, and there was nothing wrong with the old life I used to lead. It's just not where I'm at now, so even though I can go back and visit my old haunts, they're not home anymore. Would I have been happier not "moving"? Maybe? Who knows? My new life is great, but that wasn't a given and it's not a guarantee for the future; neither is it certain that everything would've been fine had everything stayed the same. The world is going to keep spinning regardless of what I do, so all I can do is make the most of my life and try to make it a worthwhile ride for my kid, particularly since they didn't get a choice about coming along.
posted by Diagonalize at 6:05 PM on May 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
I asked this question a few years ago and you might find some of those answer helpful.
Right now I'm grateful that I get to travel, take classes, push myself at work, volunteer, have a grown-up social life and pick up hobbies without figuring out how I'll make it work with kids (or just not do it because kids).
I've also found it interesting to look at how other single and/or childless women have created meaning in their lives: Mother Theresa, Katharine Hepburn, Queen Elizabeth I, Jane Austen, Condoleeza Rice, Louisa May Alcott, Susan B Anthony, Oprah, Joan of Arc, Florence Nightingale, Mary Cassatt.
And here's an interesting article about a book called All the Single Ladies by Rebecca Traister.
I'm still lonely at times but marriage and kids aren't necessarily a vaccine against loneliness. You can live in a houseful of people and still feel alone.
posted by bunderful at 8:39 PM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Right now I'm grateful that I get to travel, take classes, push myself at work, volunteer, have a grown-up social life and pick up hobbies without figuring out how I'll make it work with kids (or just not do it because kids).
I've also found it interesting to look at how other single and/or childless women have created meaning in their lives: Mother Theresa, Katharine Hepburn, Queen Elizabeth I, Jane Austen, Condoleeza Rice, Louisa May Alcott, Susan B Anthony, Oprah, Joan of Arc, Florence Nightingale, Mary Cassatt.
And here's an interesting article about a book called All the Single Ladies by Rebecca Traister.
I'm still lonely at times but marriage and kids aren't necessarily a vaccine against loneliness. You can live in a houseful of people and still feel alone.
posted by bunderful at 8:39 PM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
My wife and I were fairly ambivalent about kids and finally had them fairly late in our reproductive years. I have friends without kids who are very satisfied with life, friends without kids who are hopelessly lonely, friends with kids who pretty much live like childless people (whose kids are still mostly pretty ok) and then of course friends with kids who have given themselves deep satisfying meaning to their lives.
The point being, you don’t have to be “dying to have kids” to end up being someone whose life is completely changed for the better by having kids. In general, I would say that having kids brings some additional focus on the question of “why am I here? And are the choices I’m making in life worth it?” I think if I were childless, I’d have to expend more conscious effort on making sure I found that amount of fulfillment in my life, whereas having kids just automatically makes you expend that effort .
For me, I don’t think I would have the confidence to say that my values and decisions in life were as certain without being a father myself. I just wasn’t a fully formed person until I had responsibility for another person. And given that my own values are vastly different from my own family of origin’s, having my own kids turned out to be a crucial stage of development and maturation in my own life.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 10:46 PM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
The point being, you don’t have to be “dying to have kids” to end up being someone whose life is completely changed for the better by having kids. In general, I would say that having kids brings some additional focus on the question of “why am I here? And are the choices I’m making in life worth it?” I think if I were childless, I’d have to expend more conscious effort on making sure I found that amount of fulfillment in my life, whereas having kids just automatically makes you expend that effort .
For me, I don’t think I would have the confidence to say that my values and decisions in life were as certain without being a father myself. I just wasn’t a fully formed person until I had responsibility for another person. And given that my own values are vastly different from my own family of origin’s, having my own kids turned out to be a crucial stage of development and maturation in my own life.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 10:46 PM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I guess I worry I'll miss out on a big experience of love and meaning, and that I'll regret it when I'm old.
I've watched people around me have kids due to fear of missing out. It hasn't gone well. Dirty secret in the parenting community there are people who profoundly regret their kids, they often don't say it but you can either tell or slips out after a few too many glasses of wine. Also a marriage destroyer. Not as often a marriage ender, because "stay for kids" trope, but destroyer.
I'm a parent to 2 kids and I became a parent because me and my partner both really wanted kids and wanted to be parents. I adore my kids, I love them and cherish them and wouldn't have had a bad word to say about parenting or child rearing ever.
Until I got sick. The last year I developed a sporadically life-threatening chronic disease. For the first time in 7 years of being a parent, I started to see the wisdom of being childless. Because when you give a kid your 100% and seeing them light up with understanding and basking in your attention. That's wonderful. When your getting back from the hospital and desperately need sleep and you have a two variously small extremely loud roommates. When your meds make you nauseous and tired and you have to spend all your time at home with two people largely incapable of being chill or giving you space. When you don't have spare energy for them, when your too tired to be engaged. That isn't wonderful.
Even before I was sick the hardest thing about parenting is how relentless it is. It's 24 hours a day, every day.
Now I see parenting with new eyes. I still love it, I still adore my kids but I'm more keenly aware day to day of how things would be different in the hardest moments for me and my partner, who has the herculean task of sometimes being care taker to all of us at once. I don't know how they manage.
posted by French Fry at 7:04 AM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
I've watched people around me have kids due to fear of missing out. It hasn't gone well. Dirty secret in the parenting community there are people who profoundly regret their kids, they often don't say it but you can either tell or slips out after a few too many glasses of wine. Also a marriage destroyer. Not as often a marriage ender, because "stay for kids" trope, but destroyer.
I'm a parent to 2 kids and I became a parent because me and my partner both really wanted kids and wanted to be parents. I adore my kids, I love them and cherish them and wouldn't have had a bad word to say about parenting or child rearing ever.
Until I got sick. The last year I developed a sporadically life-threatening chronic disease. For the first time in 7 years of being a parent, I started to see the wisdom of being childless. Because when you give a kid your 100% and seeing them light up with understanding and basking in your attention. That's wonderful. When your getting back from the hospital and desperately need sleep and you have a two variously small extremely loud roommates. When your meds make you nauseous and tired and you have to spend all your time at home with two people largely incapable of being chill or giving you space. When you don't have spare energy for them, when your too tired to be engaged. That isn't wonderful.
Even before I was sick the hardest thing about parenting is how relentless it is. It's 24 hours a day, every day.
Now I see parenting with new eyes. I still love it, I still adore my kids but I'm more keenly aware day to day of how things would be different in the hardest moments for me and my partner, who has the herculean task of sometimes being care taker to all of us at once. I don't know how they manage.
posted by French Fry at 7:04 AM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I have an almost 15 month old.
Either way, kids or not, you gain in one area and lose in another.
I sort of abstractly envisioned having a family, but didn't really want to do the depiction of having kids. It doesn't look fun, and i worked in a daycare so I know that what kids call "play" takes intensive planning from someone, or extreme presence in the moment if you are "using imagination" and playing on the fly. You can't really be distracted and do that.
So when I had my baby, what struck me the most was the TOTAL INNOCENCE. Like i was totally responsible for making this thing comfy and cozy because noone and nothing else would help her and she deserved it all because she didn't even have the capacity for malicious thoughts or actions. I was struck by how pure she was. As she's grown it's been neat to see how new things manifest in her behavior, preferences, and moods.
That said, she just started sleeping at night about 3 weeks ago. I was completely sleep deprived for over a year, working full time, commuting an hour each way, pumping 3-4 times a day, eating like an army and sleeping 3 or 4 hours total per night, broken into segments. it sucked and i hated it. I'm still resentful when people around me think i'm exaggerating. or when people say "it goes by so fast". fuck that noise. Would you tell someone who is diagnosed with breast cancer that it might suck now, but it goes by so fast? Not unless you are an asshole.
Having a baby has taught me new depths of self sacrifice and service in the name of another, which i guess is really a high form of love. But as an introvert who used to enjoy intellectual pursuits, i find my life actually has less meaning now. I'm never alone. It's getting better that she's weaned, but i still only get maybe 2 hours alone on the weekend. I am constantly interrupted. I cannot do anything i enjoy (sewing, reading) without being interrupted in 15 mayyybe 20 minute segments. I am a boring shell of the personality i used to be because I am still in recovery from sleep deprivation. I just never could get excited about mom groups and whatnot because it was all so...cliched? but for good reason. I guess i want more escapism that commiserating, but i think you have to settle for commiseration because you can't escape. I used to be into skating, but i can't do that unless i want to go at night and sacrifice my sleep. I am really hoping that "it gets easier".
So while i feel like i have a better understanding of human history and the grind that keeps it going, I miss my old life dearly. The things i miss may be superficial compared to the existential master class of having a kid, but I still miss it. Kids / no kids is the ultimate "you still can't have it all."
I don't think someone like you (as you describe yourself here) will ever be able to come down firmly on one side of the fence until other elements (i.e. partner) are in place, and unfortunately, even after your life takes it's course on the kids issue, you might still at times wonder about the other option.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:57 AM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Either way, kids or not, you gain in one area and lose in another.
I sort of abstractly envisioned having a family, but didn't really want to do the depiction of having kids. It doesn't look fun, and i worked in a daycare so I know that what kids call "play" takes intensive planning from someone, or extreme presence in the moment if you are "using imagination" and playing on the fly. You can't really be distracted and do that.
So when I had my baby, what struck me the most was the TOTAL INNOCENCE. Like i was totally responsible for making this thing comfy and cozy because noone and nothing else would help her and she deserved it all because she didn't even have the capacity for malicious thoughts or actions. I was struck by how pure she was. As she's grown it's been neat to see how new things manifest in her behavior, preferences, and moods.
That said, she just started sleeping at night about 3 weeks ago. I was completely sleep deprived for over a year, working full time, commuting an hour each way, pumping 3-4 times a day, eating like an army and sleeping 3 or 4 hours total per night, broken into segments. it sucked and i hated it. I'm still resentful when people around me think i'm exaggerating. or when people say "it goes by so fast". fuck that noise. Would you tell someone who is diagnosed with breast cancer that it might suck now, but it goes by so fast? Not unless you are an asshole.
Having a baby has taught me new depths of self sacrifice and service in the name of another, which i guess is really a high form of love. But as an introvert who used to enjoy intellectual pursuits, i find my life actually has less meaning now. I'm never alone. It's getting better that she's weaned, but i still only get maybe 2 hours alone on the weekend. I am constantly interrupted. I cannot do anything i enjoy (sewing, reading) without being interrupted in 15 mayyybe 20 minute segments. I am a boring shell of the personality i used to be because I am still in recovery from sleep deprivation. I just never could get excited about mom groups and whatnot because it was all so...cliched? but for good reason. I guess i want more escapism that commiserating, but i think you have to settle for commiseration because you can't escape. I used to be into skating, but i can't do that unless i want to go at night and sacrifice my sleep. I am really hoping that "it gets easier".
So while i feel like i have a better understanding of human history and the grind that keeps it going, I miss my old life dearly. The things i miss may be superficial compared to the existential master class of having a kid, but I still miss it. Kids / no kids is the ultimate "you still can't have it all."
I don't think someone like you (as you describe yourself here) will ever be able to come down firmly on one side of the fence until other elements (i.e. partner) are in place, and unfortunately, even after your life takes it's course on the kids issue, you might still at times wonder about the other option.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:57 AM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I think I'm basically you. I love kids (I'm a teacher) but am ambivalent about the idea of having any, for all the reasons you mention: I'm an introvert, 21st-century American parenting seems like a slog, I like my life to be chill and non-chaotic. These are all totally valid preferences. As a teacher I would posit that ambivalence should generally lean toward "no" -- but as you can see above, there are plenty of exceptions.
In any case I know a lot of parents and a lot of non-parents. What I will say is this: people who tend to be happy tend to be happy either way. People who find their lives meaningful make meaning either way. People who don't...don't. I know plenty of miserable and/or purposeless people in both camps; I strongly suspect that child-having is one of those "wherever you go, there you are" things.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 2:17 PM on May 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
In any case I know a lot of parents and a lot of non-parents. What I will say is this: people who tend to be happy tend to be happy either way. People who find their lives meaningful make meaning either way. People who don't...don't. I know plenty of miserable and/or purposeless people in both camps; I strongly suspect that child-having is one of those "wherever you go, there you are" things.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 2:17 PM on May 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
oh forgot to mention: it was super helpful to me to listen to parenting podcasts (eg One Bad Mother) before. really offered a huge range of perspectives, issues to consider, etc.
posted by Cozybee at 7:37 AM on May 8, 2018
posted by Cozybee at 7:37 AM on May 8, 2018
Best answer: But maybe I don't need my own kids to find a kid who wants to learn the stuff that I have to teach
There's a ton of interest in STEM/STEAM stuff for kids, and many organizations that need volunteers to help teach kids who are interested in these things. This is a great time of year to start volunteering in this area because there is a great demand in the summer. Look around for STEM stuff in your area and you might even find events where a lot of different kid oriented STEM organizations are promoting their programs -- go, find something that appeals, ask if they need volunteers.
There's no guarantee that your own kid would necessarily be interested in these things just because you are.
posted by yohko at 6:52 PM on May 8, 2018
There's a ton of interest in STEM/STEAM stuff for kids, and many organizations that need volunteers to help teach kids who are interested in these things. This is a great time of year to start volunteering in this area because there is a great demand in the summer. Look around for STEM stuff in your area and you might even find events where a lot of different kid oriented STEM organizations are promoting their programs -- go, find something that appeals, ask if they need volunteers.
There's no guarantee that your own kid would necessarily be interested in these things just because you are.
posted by yohko at 6:52 PM on May 8, 2018
Best answer: I work with kids all day long and have 3 of my own and I feel it's necessary to say that working with kids is really different from raising them. I'm not putting any value judgment on this at all; I'm really not. It's similar to the difference between people who own pets and people who have fur babies. My sister has 2 dogs and no kids and she firmly believes that her dog training is the exact same thing as raising kids. It isn't. By extension, working with kids is awesome and may definitely fill a part of one's heart, but it would be a mistake to say it's a similar emotional experience as raising your own.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:01 AM on May 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:01 AM on May 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I think what I wish I had known earlier is that kids really do care way more about love than expensive presents or experiences, especially when they’re younger. You don’t have to go broke trying to keep up with the Joneses. However, what you might also want to think about is they are an enormous commitment- which kind of grounds you, both for good and for ill. It forces you to be more stable earlier, which I personally found helpful, but people who haven’t done a lot with their lives sometimes get regretful about it - having kids mean you take less risks.
posted by corb at 10:39 PM on May 5, 2018 [7 favorites]