Should I choose a traditional vet or a holistic vet?
April 23, 2018 3:18 PM Subscribe
We recently adopted this little lady, a retired show dog. She's nine years old and needs to have a veterinarian. I'm conflicted about whether we should choose a traditional vet or one with a holistic bent, especially in light of her history.
Her two previous owners have used, and swear by, holistic veterinarians. AFAIK she hasn't been vaccinated beyond the core vaccines as a puppy. She hasn't had a rabies vaccine in years (ever?) and has had annual heartworm testing but no heartworm or flea/tick preventive. She has had three litters of puppies, but is now spayed.
I've had dogs all my life and have always used a traditional vet but now for Reasons we need to choose a new vet. On the one hand, I think I should follow the previous owners' lead, especially since I'm still in frequent contact with them, and take her to a holistic vet. She's a small dog and I don't want to stress her system by shooting her full of various vaccines. On the other hand, though, I wonder just how strong the evidence against annual vaccinations is and whether I'm becoming one of those hysterical anti-vaxxers.
Beyond the vaccine issue, though, she's getting older and is likely to encounter joint and other health issues as she ages. Do I want a vet who will always treat with medication and/or surgery? Or one who has more arrows in the quiver and can take a less disruptive approach whenever possible? If it matters, she is not a brave girl at the vet's.
She lives a typical suburban dog life, coming into contact with other typical suburban dogs on her walks, eats all-natural kibble and gets essential fatty acid and glucosamine supplements. But there are coyotes and other wildlife around at night, covering the same ground she does during the day. We usually take her with us when we travel; otherwise we "board" her at someone's home via rover.com.
I never fail to learn from the doggy wisdom of Mefites, so please help me sort this through. As a bonus question, can you recommend a good vet in the far north suburbs of Chicago?
Her two previous owners have used, and swear by, holistic veterinarians. AFAIK she hasn't been vaccinated beyond the core vaccines as a puppy. She hasn't had a rabies vaccine in years (ever?) and has had annual heartworm testing but no heartworm or flea/tick preventive. She has had three litters of puppies, but is now spayed.
I've had dogs all my life and have always used a traditional vet but now for Reasons we need to choose a new vet. On the one hand, I think I should follow the previous owners' lead, especially since I'm still in frequent contact with them, and take her to a holistic vet. She's a small dog and I don't want to stress her system by shooting her full of various vaccines. On the other hand, though, I wonder just how strong the evidence against annual vaccinations is and whether I'm becoming one of those hysterical anti-vaxxers.
Beyond the vaccine issue, though, she's getting older and is likely to encounter joint and other health issues as she ages. Do I want a vet who will always treat with medication and/or surgery? Or one who has more arrows in the quiver and can take a less disruptive approach whenever possible? If it matters, she is not a brave girl at the vet's.
She lives a typical suburban dog life, coming into contact with other typical suburban dogs on her walks, eats all-natural kibble and gets essential fatty acid and glucosamine supplements. But there are coyotes and other wildlife around at night, covering the same ground she does during the day. We usually take her with us when we travel; otherwise we "board" her at someone's home via rover.com.
I never fail to learn from the doggy wisdom of Mefites, so please help me sort this through. As a bonus question, can you recommend a good vet in the far north suburbs of Chicago?
Real vet 100%. Not having an up to date rabies vaccine can lead to your dog being put down in a biting situation or if bitten by one of those roaming coyotes/wildlife a terrible terrible death by rabies. There are no good arguments against the vaccination of dogs, an un-vaccinated dog is a public health hazard.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 3:36 PM on April 23, 2018 [32 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 3:36 PM on April 23, 2018 [32 favorites]
Can you use both? My dog sees a traditional vet for his annual exams, vaccinations, emergencies, etc., but we also see a holistic vet for chronic issues such as digestion problems and arthritis. We found a wonderful holistic vet who I think truly makes a difference in my dog's quality of life, but they still need to be vaccinated and emergencies come up occasionally that only the regular vet can address quickly. Aside from the ethical issues of having an unvaccinated animal, it would really make normal life with a dog more challenging. Any dog daycare/boarder, hotel that allows pets, dog parks, or basically any environment that puts your dog in contact with other dogs or people will require a vaccination. I like to take my dog with me to as many places as possible and without vaccinations he'd be stuck at home all the time. Also, in my area there's an increase in rabid skunks and raccoons. I'm absolutely not messing around with the slightest chance they could get rabies.
posted by shornco at 3:45 PM on April 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by shornco at 3:45 PM on April 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
What is a "holistic vet"? If they do not vaccinate, they are not doing their job. Better to find a regular vet that you trust, can talk to, and be able to ask that they not use extreme measures, and get to know your dog and her special needs. There are such vets, interview a few. But don't go to someone who does not do what vets do to keep pets healthy and safe.
posted by mermayd at 3:46 PM on April 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by mermayd at 3:46 PM on April 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
I was leaning toward holistic vet, which I’ve used, until I got to the rabies vaccine part. Illinois law requires the rabies vaccine, and you should stay away from any vet who thinks that is optional.
Holistic vet can mean a lot of things and a holistic vet is a real vet. But not all holistic vets are equal (and there are shitty traditional vets too). If you can find a good holistic vet who vaccinates animals, that’s a legitimate choice. And it can be preferable.
posted by FencingGal at 3:49 PM on April 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Holistic vet can mean a lot of things and a holistic vet is a real vet. But not all holistic vets are equal (and there are shitty traditional vets too). If you can find a good holistic vet who vaccinates animals, that’s a legitimate choice. And it can be preferable.
posted by FencingGal at 3:49 PM on April 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: I didn't mention that at her check-up last week with our soon-to-be-ex vet, she got the three year rabies vaccine, but no others. And she has tigers through the years.
posted by DrGail at 3:50 PM on April 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by DrGail at 3:50 PM on April 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Holistic vets can also be real vets. Get a vet with a DVM from a good school. If they also practice another modality and aren't trying to push you into anything, you'll at least have options.
I have a legit, highly qualified and experienced vet. She does real vet things. Said vet also does acupuncture, and I have seen results I can't explain despite my highly skeptical nature.
posted by quarterframer at 3:50 PM on April 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
I have a legit, highly qualified and experienced vet. She does real vet things. Said vet also does acupuncture, and I have seen results I can't explain despite my highly skeptical nature.
posted by quarterframer at 3:50 PM on April 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
You need to take your dog to a real vet, not a "holistic vet." Your dog deserves real medical care. Not providing it is neglect - and possibly also in violation of the law if you live in a jurisdiction that requires certain vaccines.
As a side note: The reason that evidence-based medicine is sometimes "disruptive" is that effective medical treatment has to, by definition, interfere with the body in some way. If there are no risks of side-effects, then there are also no risks of there being a medical benefit. This is a fact that anti-vaxxers and their ilk often exploit when they're trying to scare people away from evidence-based medicine, but when they do so they're preying on people's ignorance.
That said, a good bet will always be willing to openly discuss the benefits and potential downsides of any treatment, so that you can make the best decision for your dog. You don't need to worry about "disruptive" care until you're actually making the decision to go ahead with a treatment or not, and then you can talk/think about it.
(I'm assuming that "holistic vet" here is meant to mean a vet that only does "alternative" treatments, since we seem to be talking about holistic vets that don't vaccinate! As others have pointed out, it can mean different things.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 3:53 PM on April 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
As a side note: The reason that evidence-based medicine is sometimes "disruptive" is that effective medical treatment has to, by definition, interfere with the body in some way. If there are no risks of side-effects, then there are also no risks of there being a medical benefit. This is a fact that anti-vaxxers and their ilk often exploit when they're trying to scare people away from evidence-based medicine, but when they do so they're preying on people's ignorance.
That said, a good bet will always be willing to openly discuss the benefits and potential downsides of any treatment, so that you can make the best decision for your dog. You don't need to worry about "disruptive" care until you're actually making the decision to go ahead with a treatment or not, and then you can talk/think about it.
(I'm assuming that "holistic vet" here is meant to mean a vet that only does "alternative" treatments, since we seem to be talking about holistic vets that don't vaccinate! As others have pointed out, it can mean different things.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 3:53 PM on April 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
I go to a traditional vet, and I definitely don't feel like they always push medications or surgery. In fact, my primary treatment per my vet for my dog's chronic condition (bladder condition) is to give him chicken broth.
posted by radioamy at 4:52 PM on April 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by radioamy at 4:52 PM on April 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Go to a traditional vet first and anytime there is a serious medical issue. A real vet practices real medicine. Then if you want to piss your money away, try the woo.
posted by BlueHorse at 5:15 PM on April 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by BlueHorse at 5:15 PM on April 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
The traditional vet. Vaccines are well covered. Also, you need one for the inevitable senior dental.
posted by crazycanuck at 5:19 PM on April 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by crazycanuck at 5:19 PM on April 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Let me qualify the above--I agree absolutely there are botanical and holistic practices confirmed by science. But there is little regulation on the sources, quality, and quantity of herbal preparations, and often conflicts can occur with other herbals or medicines. Even with FDA oversight for people, with popular items like glucosamine, chondroitin, sour cherry, iron supplements, etc etc, formulations vary widely--you can't be sure what you're getting. Beware quacks and witch doctors.
posted by BlueHorse at 5:33 PM on April 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by BlueHorse at 5:33 PM on April 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Please take that precious sweet baby to a real vet that has all the resources you might ever need to diagnose, treat and care for her in the way she deserves.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 5:49 PM on April 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 5:49 PM on April 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Rabies vaccination is the law. Get a trained traditional vet with knowledge and training in vaccines. However, talk to your vet about the possibility of getting titers for the required vaccines. You'll know if the dog has immunity through vaccination or if it needs to be updated.
As far as I know, there is no legal licensure for "holistic vets."
posted by answergrape at 6:55 PM on April 23, 2018
As far as I know, there is no legal licensure for "holistic vets."
posted by answergrape at 6:55 PM on April 23, 2018
So, rabies is the official public health hazard because it can transfer from dogs to humans, but according to the CDC not very many dogs test postive in a year (2015 stats.) It is the law, and you should. But Parvo and Distemper both have vaccines and are way more likely to kill your dog. And it's a ugly ugly death.
Get a vet you like , either way is fine. Just make sure you are getting basic health with any holistic approach.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:10 PM on April 23, 2018
Get a vet you like , either way is fine. Just make sure you are getting basic health with any holistic approach.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:10 PM on April 23, 2018
Add on: If you are ever going to board your dog for any reason they will need to be up to date on all vaccinations.
Both distemper and parvo are also highly contagious and going to dogs parks increases risk. It does not require a dog bite for transmission.
I don't vaccinate my cats regularly because they are soley indoor animals. I chose to do this knowing the consequences. I have vaccinated prior to boarding and when introducing a new animal. I would vaccinate any social dog who spends time outdoors.
*source for opinion, I am not vet but have worked in a vets office
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:26 PM on April 23, 2018
Both distemper and parvo are also highly contagious and going to dogs parks increases risk. It does not require a dog bite for transmission.
I don't vaccinate my cats regularly because they are soley indoor animals. I chose to do this knowing the consequences. I have vaccinated prior to boarding and when introducing a new animal. I would vaccinate any social dog who spends time outdoors.
*source for opinion, I am not vet but have worked in a vets office
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:26 PM on April 23, 2018
Best answer: There is no legal licensure for holistic vets.
There is not a separate licensure for holistic vets. Holistic vets are just licensed as vets. My holistic vet graduated from a traditional vet school, as did every holistic vet I know about. If you’re unsure about a particular vet, ask.
A lot of these answers don’t seem to be based on actual knowledge of what a holistic vet is.
posted by FencingGal at 7:42 PM on April 23, 2018
There is not a separate licensure for holistic vets. Holistic vets are just licensed as vets. My holistic vet graduated from a traditional vet school, as did every holistic vet I know about. If you’re unsure about a particular vet, ask.
A lot of these answers don’t seem to be based on actual knowledge of what a holistic vet is.
posted by FencingGal at 7:42 PM on April 23, 2018
Our dog is 12 and all of a sudden he is an old-man dog. It seems clear to me that he doesn't bounce back as quickly. If he was exposed to kennel cough today vs. when he was nine, I think the results would be more serious, rather like an 80 year old vs a 60 old human. So, I would think about how much your dog is likely to be exposed to contagious canine diseases, not just the super life threatening ones. On the other hand, I don't know that I would want to give him vaccinations for the first time at age 12 either. So, since your dog is in the second half of his life, you should think about how you want to handle things as he ages.
posted by metahawk at 8:01 PM on April 23, 2018
posted by metahawk at 8:01 PM on April 23, 2018
You can absolutely find excellent vets who can do all the vaccines and emergency treatments and senior dental care stuff as well as help you give this dog a healthy lifestyle with all the attendant "arrows" in their "quiver", as you put it. A good vet practice will be able to safely vaccinate a small dog, they will also be happy to have an ongoing conversation with you about her care and the different things you can do that are less abrupt or invasive like regular supplements, at home dental preventative care, nutrition guidance, different kinds of physical therapy and more. A good vet will talk to you about possibly staggering some of the vaccines if they think it's a concern. It's not an either/or thing, or at least, it shouldn't be.
I know some friends of friends who are very intense doggy people who live in Chicago, I'll ask them about vet recommendations.
posted by Mizu at 8:05 PM on April 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
I know some friends of friends who are very intense doggy people who live in Chicago, I'll ask them about vet recommendations.
posted by Mizu at 8:05 PM on April 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Does it have to be one or the other or can you find a vet who uses both convential approaches and alternative ones?
I used to have cats, old cats with several issues, and after some trial and error I found a vet who would use conventional medicine, and, if he felt it appropriate, would siggest alternative ones (eg acupuncture, homeopathy, herbal remedies). But there was never a question of either or. He simply supplemented the convential treatments with alternative ones. He definitely viewed the animals in his care (his waiting room was full of elderly, care intensive cats and dogs, and for a while I was there twice per week), as a whole individual creatures.
This is a quality, to see the whole animal, not only the sick body part, is I would look for if I needed a vet these days (sadly, the cats passed on, but not for lack of care but age and illness).
posted by 15L06 at 3:18 AM on April 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
I used to have cats, old cats with several issues, and after some trial and error I found a vet who would use conventional medicine, and, if he felt it appropriate, would siggest alternative ones (eg acupuncture, homeopathy, herbal remedies). But there was never a question of either or. He simply supplemented the convential treatments with alternative ones. He definitely viewed the animals in his care (his waiting room was full of elderly, care intensive cats and dogs, and for a while I was there twice per week), as a whole individual creatures.
This is a quality, to see the whole animal, not only the sick body part, is I would look for if I needed a vet these days (sadly, the cats passed on, but not for lack of care but age and illness).
posted by 15L06 at 3:18 AM on April 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Real vet. IF you find a decent vet, their treatment isn't at all like what human treatment can be (where prolonging life can often mean not worth it to most people declines in quality of life). My vet is honest, recommends dietary treatments before medication, and told us when our dogs were old and suffering and would be more comfortable on the other side.
posted by WeekendJen at 7:53 AM on April 24, 2018
posted by WeekendJen at 7:53 AM on April 24, 2018
I go to a traditional vet and I still get sent home with powdered eye of newt or whatever, but as a supplement to their traditional pain and disease management. My dogs literally get better drugs than I do. They certainly get more woo.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:45 AM on April 24, 2018
posted by DarlingBri at 8:45 AM on April 24, 2018
A lot of these answers don’t seem to be based on actual knowledge of what a holistic vet is.
I think that's probably because the OP has been misinformed by the dog's previous owners that a holistic vet is a vet who does not believe in giving dogs legally mandated vaccinations, without which dogs can die in extremely horrible ways.
OP, please vaccinate your dog. You have no obligation to continue subjecting your pet to the dangers of the fraudulent and stupid antivaxxing pseudoscience the dog's former owners believe in.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:53 AM on April 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think that's probably because the OP has been misinformed by the dog's previous owners that a holistic vet is a vet who does not believe in giving dogs legally mandated vaccinations, without which dogs can die in extremely horrible ways.
OP, please vaccinate your dog. You have no obligation to continue subjecting your pet to the dangers of the fraudulent and stupid antivaxxing pseudoscience the dog's former owners believe in.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:53 AM on April 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Whichever vet you go to, it's negligent bordering on insane not to vaccinate a dog that goes out in public and where other dogs have been. Parvo is a nasty, nasty disease. So is distemper. Even kennel cough can have long lasting issues.
posted by fiercecupcake at 11:53 AM on April 24, 2018
posted by fiercecupcake at 11:53 AM on April 24, 2018
On the "not a brave girl" front: a vet who participates in the fear free initiative is more likely to take those concerns seriously and be more considerative of the stress of vet visits.
posted by mosst at 2:01 PM on April 24, 2018
posted by mosst at 2:01 PM on April 24, 2018
It sounds to me like your dog is likely in need of many more preventive vaccines and meds than you are currently giving her. (I see in your update she has an up to date rabies vaccination. Good.)
In addition to the rabies vaccine, many if not not most US dogs benefit from:
- monthly heartworm prevention
- monthly flea/tick prevention
- distemper & parvo vaccine
- bordatella vaccine
- leptospirosis vaccine
- giardia vaccine
- lyme vaccine
- dog flu vaccine
ANY veterinarian, no matter their focus on western vs eastern/holistic medicine, should educate you about what vaccines are necessary for your dog's location and life circumstances. For example, if you will ever board her in a kennel, they will REQUIRE distemper/parvo, rabies, bordatella, and maybe dog flu vaccines because your dog will be in close quarters with other dogs.
Distemper is a virus carried by animals (raccoons, skunks, squirrels, possums etc)that live in and run through your yard, if you have one. It's highly contagious and spread through inhalation. There is no known cure. It is fatal. It's crazy not to have this vaccination. It may even be legally mandated wherever you are.
Parvo is a highly contagious virus that spreads from dog to dog. Treatment is very expensive and the dog may still die despite treatment. Some locales require this one too.
If your dog ever drinks from a puddle, stream, or other body of water outside, there is the possibility of her ingesting urine from other animals (commonly deer), bacteria, and parasites. Or she may be bitten by ticks. That's why giardia, lepto, and lyme vaccines are often recommended or even mandated in certain locales.
I'm shocked your 9 year old dog has never been on monthly heartworm or flea/tick prevention. If her feet ever touch the ground outside, she needs to be on them. Diseases resulting from this lack of basic healthcare are expensive to treat, can be lengthy and a pain in the butt (like crating for weeks on end to prevent exercise), and may be fatal. Have you ever seen a dog's heart infested with heartworms? The worms actually consume so much of the organ that in the end, there are more worms than heart tissue. A very painful and entirely preventable death.
Lastly, if any vet offers you homeopathic remedies, find another vet. That is absolute quackery.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 5:44 AM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
In addition to the rabies vaccine, many if not not most US dogs benefit from:
- monthly heartworm prevention
- monthly flea/tick prevention
- distemper & parvo vaccine
- bordatella vaccine
- leptospirosis vaccine
- giardia vaccine
- lyme vaccine
- dog flu vaccine
ANY veterinarian, no matter their focus on western vs eastern/holistic medicine, should educate you about what vaccines are necessary for your dog's location and life circumstances. For example, if you will ever board her in a kennel, they will REQUIRE distemper/parvo, rabies, bordatella, and maybe dog flu vaccines because your dog will be in close quarters with other dogs.
Distemper is a virus carried by animals (raccoons, skunks, squirrels, possums etc)that live in and run through your yard, if you have one. It's highly contagious and spread through inhalation. There is no known cure. It is fatal. It's crazy not to have this vaccination. It may even be legally mandated wherever you are.
Parvo is a highly contagious virus that spreads from dog to dog. Treatment is very expensive and the dog may still die despite treatment. Some locales require this one too.
If your dog ever drinks from a puddle, stream, or other body of water outside, there is the possibility of her ingesting urine from other animals (commonly deer), bacteria, and parasites. Or she may be bitten by ticks. That's why giardia, lepto, and lyme vaccines are often recommended or even mandated in certain locales.
I'm shocked your 9 year old dog has never been on monthly heartworm or flea/tick prevention. If her feet ever touch the ground outside, she needs to be on them. Diseases resulting from this lack of basic healthcare are expensive to treat, can be lengthy and a pain in the butt (like crating for weeks on end to prevent exercise), and may be fatal. Have you ever seen a dog's heart infested with heartworms? The worms actually consume so much of the organ that in the end, there are more worms than heart tissue. A very painful and entirely preventable death.
Lastly, if any vet offers you homeopathic remedies, find another vet. That is absolute quackery.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 5:44 AM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: AFAIK, holistic vets are also traditional vets with bona fide DVM degrees. At least the ones I saw on the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association site were. And for the record, I would never consider taking her to someone that wasn't a competent, licensed veterinarian.
But your responses convinced me that any other vaccinations (besides rabies) she needs really can't wait. So I'm looking at a local vet who is also certified in chiropractic and acupuncture, which will give us multiple options for treating the knee issues our previous Westie had (and that I can already see her starting to develop). Hopefully he also does titers, or at least won't react as hysterically as our soon-to-be-ex vet did when I asked about titers instead of just vaccinating the dog willy-nilly.
If anyone has experience with titers, or can explain why they are/aren't a good idea, I would love to hear about it.
posted by DrGail at 3:03 PM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
But your responses convinced me that any other vaccinations (besides rabies) she needs really can't wait. So I'm looking at a local vet who is also certified in chiropractic and acupuncture, which will give us multiple options for treating the knee issues our previous Westie had (and that I can already see her starting to develop). Hopefully he also does titers, or at least won't react as hysterically as our soon-to-be-ex vet did when I asked about titers instead of just vaccinating the dog willy-nilly.
If anyone has experience with titers, or can explain why they are/aren't a good idea, I would love to hear about it.
posted by DrGail at 3:03 PM on April 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
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Let me put it to you this way, if we met at a dog park, and your dog nipped me or someone I was with, without proof of rabies shots your dog might be euthanized.
posted by Sophont at 3:33 PM on April 23, 2018 [71 favorites]