How do you do inclusion?
April 20, 2018 12:04 PM Subscribe
We opened our women's clothing swap up to any gender, but now someone wants to bring their (male, cis, straight) partner and I don't now what to do.
I really feel like I got beyond my depth and could use some help to think through how to honor our intentions as well as the invitation we made.
Our women's clothing swap is traditionally a group of women. I wanted to invite a gay man who wears femme/women's clothes and makeup, believing it would be a space he'd enjoy. Plus he'd bring great stuff and take away great stuff. Win/win/win. I wanted to be inclusive of people who are interested in women's clothes but don't always have a chance to trade them in these kinds of events. So I added language to the invitation that anyone who wanted to swap women's clothes was welcome.
I didn't think enough about the space that the guests appreciate -- a femme/female space, something that feels nurturing. We've held these a few times and they always have that great feeling that comes with women spending time together. If I could go back, I would add a line that we are holding a W/T/F--Women/Trans/Femme--space.
My friend wrote on the event wall that she's bringing her partner, who's going to look for clothes and maybe even bring something. I've met him and he struck me as a cis man, definitely not giving a W/T/F vibe. I wrote her a message right after the post to confirm that he was welcome, and, this was specifically for people who are trading women's clothing. She was like "Yup! Got it!"
Another friend saw the post and said having him here would disrupt the W/T/F space. I believe it should be up to people to decide their own interests, and if, knowing the space, he wants to be here, I want to include him. That was the spirit of the original invitation. And it's ridiculous to think I can know someone's identity from meeting them one time. I know nothing about him!
I also want to be a good host and help the space be positive for the other guests. Personally, I don't want to have a man in the space if he's not actually interested in this -- if he's doing it as a performative thing, like, "Hey, look at these silly female things and isn't it hilarious how I'm crossing gender lines?" I honestly prefer not to have a strong masculine energy.
The time to figure all this out and communicate it was FOR SURE before publishing the invite. But is there anything I can say at this point?
I was thinking something like, "Please feel free to push back since I don't know your partner very well. In the past our swaps have been fun not only because of the clothes, but with the space the guests create together. If I could go back, I would change the event description to 'W/T/F' because that's really what we're going for. We should have figured this out and communicated it more in advance. So in that spirit, and since Partner seemed cis-male presenting the time we met, I wanted to check in a bit more. You know him so much better than I do. If supporting a restorative femme space is up his alley, he is certainly welcome to come. If it's more just a novelty or a one-time thing, it might not be the best fit this time around. In that case we will hope to see you both another time, maybe at an all-gender, all-clothes swap."
Heinous dis-invitation? Reasonable question? Hateful expression that needs to lead me into some serious self-examination?
I'm a straight cis woman and I'm on a journey when it comes to understanding, speaking about and relating with gender and sexuality spectrums, so I know there may be shortfalls here and I welcome if you can help me see them, if they're here.
I really feel like I got beyond my depth and could use some help to think through how to honor our intentions as well as the invitation we made.
Our women's clothing swap is traditionally a group of women. I wanted to invite a gay man who wears femme/women's clothes and makeup, believing it would be a space he'd enjoy. Plus he'd bring great stuff and take away great stuff. Win/win/win. I wanted to be inclusive of people who are interested in women's clothes but don't always have a chance to trade them in these kinds of events. So I added language to the invitation that anyone who wanted to swap women's clothes was welcome.
I didn't think enough about the space that the guests appreciate -- a femme/female space, something that feels nurturing. We've held these a few times and they always have that great feeling that comes with women spending time together. If I could go back, I would add a line that we are holding a W/T/F--Women/Trans/Femme--space.
My friend wrote on the event wall that she's bringing her partner, who's going to look for clothes and maybe even bring something. I've met him and he struck me as a cis man, definitely not giving a W/T/F vibe. I wrote her a message right after the post to confirm that he was welcome, and, this was specifically for people who are trading women's clothing. She was like "Yup! Got it!"
Another friend saw the post and said having him here would disrupt the W/T/F space. I believe it should be up to people to decide their own interests, and if, knowing the space, he wants to be here, I want to include him. That was the spirit of the original invitation. And it's ridiculous to think I can know someone's identity from meeting them one time. I know nothing about him!
I also want to be a good host and help the space be positive for the other guests. Personally, I don't want to have a man in the space if he's not actually interested in this -- if he's doing it as a performative thing, like, "Hey, look at these silly female things and isn't it hilarious how I'm crossing gender lines?" I honestly prefer not to have a strong masculine energy.
The time to figure all this out and communicate it was FOR SURE before publishing the invite. But is there anything I can say at this point?
I was thinking something like, "Please feel free to push back since I don't know your partner very well. In the past our swaps have been fun not only because of the clothes, but with the space the guests create together. If I could go back, I would change the event description to 'W/T/F' because that's really what we're going for. We should have figured this out and communicated it more in advance. So in that spirit, and since Partner seemed cis-male presenting the time we met, I wanted to check in a bit more. You know him so much better than I do. If supporting a restorative femme space is up his alley, he is certainly welcome to come. If it's more just a novelty or a one-time thing, it might not be the best fit this time around. In that case we will hope to see you both another time, maybe at an all-gender, all-clothes swap."
Heinous dis-invitation? Reasonable question? Hateful expression that needs to lead me into some serious self-examination?
I'm a straight cis woman and I'm on a journey when it comes to understanding, speaking about and relating with gender and sexuality spectrums, so I know there may be shortfalls here and I welcome if you can help me see them, if they're here.
This is broad and may be a tangent, but if you're really considering being inclusive to all women, you'd stop using femme and women interchangeably, and recognize the other ways to be a woman that aren't feminine.
In regards to the immediate situation: it's not about checking beforehand and then assuming everything is okay and going with it, it's about making it very apparent for everyone involved that any sort of misogynistic behavior will not be tolerated. then outline your plans for direct action when and if that happens (up to and including banning him and his partner from future events). This is not something you can just check on, and then let it run it's course.
posted by FirstMateKate at 12:21 PM on April 20, 2018 [33 favorites]
In regards to the immediate situation: it's not about checking beforehand and then assuming everything is okay and going with it, it's about making it very apparent for everyone involved that any sort of misogynistic behavior will not be tolerated. then outline your plans for direct action when and if that happens (up to and including banning him and his partner from future events). This is not something you can just check on, and then let it run it's course.
posted by FirstMateKate at 12:21 PM on April 20, 2018 [33 favorites]
I would be careful with the "If supporting a restorative femme space is up his alley," part. Who is going to say that's not their thing? He might think that just being a feminist is enough.
Personally, I think it's better to have a convo with your friend, and explain the desire for a femme space, and say that it's really for W/T/F, and you didn't think it through before.
If I were on the receiving end of that conversation, I would understand, and get over any disappointment quickly.
posted by Dr_Janeway at 12:22 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Personally, I think it's better to have a convo with your friend, and explain the desire for a femme space, and say that it's really for W/T/F, and you didn't think it through before.
If I were on the receiving end of that conversation, I would understand, and get over any disappointment quickly.
posted by Dr_Janeway at 12:22 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
One other option is to go forward with the event as is, the cis man in attendance, and treat this like a pilot project. You are piloting ways to be more inclusive and you started out by being broadly inclusive.
After the event send a short, anonymous, survey out to attendees to get their feedback. Were most people okay with having a cis man there? Were people uncomfortable? How would others like to go forward in future events?
Then you can respond to everyone and say, "Hey we tried this and liked it and so going forward we are doing inclusion this way," or say, "Hey in the spirit of inclusion we tried broadly opening up the event, but there are still some questions to figure out, so we're going back to the drawing board to figure out how to keep this a W/T/F space while being as inclusive as possible." And then get a few trusted advisors together to write some norms and work with your group to finalize them.
posted by brookeb at 12:28 PM on April 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
After the event send a short, anonymous, survey out to attendees to get their feedback. Were most people okay with having a cis man there? Were people uncomfortable? How would others like to go forward in future events?
Then you can respond to everyone and say, "Hey we tried this and liked it and so going forward we are doing inclusion this way," or say, "Hey in the spirit of inclusion we tried broadly opening up the event, but there are still some questions to figure out, so we're going back to the drawing board to figure out how to keep this a W/T/F space while being as inclusive as possible." And then get a few trusted advisors together to write some norms and work with your group to finalize them.
posted by brookeb at 12:28 PM on April 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
Inclusiveness has risks/drawbacks. new/different people are going to change the dynamics of a space group. Wording on these kinds of things can be hard, I absolutely would change the written descriptions to be as specific as you want them to be. I would try and have the discussion you outlined above in person or on the phone if possible, I feel it could come across as "selective" exclusion if written in a message or email were it could be over interpreted.
FWIW As a cis-looking man-looking person, I'm highly aware of how I present and wouldn't attend a women's clothing swap unless I was really interested in swapping some of my women's clothing for other people's women's clothing. I can't really imagine going as a joke... because in that space, even if one was so inclined, you'd be trolling without an audience which seems both cruel and slightly crazy.
...this was specifically for people who are trading women's clothing. She was like "Yup! Got it!"
My guess would be this person is going to show up with some traditionally "female" clothes and leave with some traditionally "female" clothes.
posted by French Fry at 12:31 PM on April 20, 2018 [15 favorites]
FWIW As a cis-looking man-looking person, I'm highly aware of how I present and wouldn't attend a women's clothing swap unless I was really interested in swapping some of my women's clothing for other people's women's clothing. I can't really imagine going as a joke... because in that space, even if one was so inclined, you'd be trolling without an audience which seems both cruel and slightly crazy.
...this was specifically for people who are trading women's clothing. She was like "Yup! Got it!"
My guess would be this person is going to show up with some traditionally "female" clothes and leave with some traditionally "female" clothes.
posted by French Fry at 12:31 PM on April 20, 2018 [15 favorites]
What do you want?
If you want to host an event for all genders, I think you should do that.
If you want to host an event that's all women, I think you should do that.
If you want to host an event that's all cis women and AFAB genderqueer folks (which is what "women and trans" is usually code for in my experience) then... well, whatever, as a trans woman I think that's kind of weird, but a lot of cis women and AFAB genderqueer folks seem to be into that, so I think you should admit it's what you want and then go ahead and do it.
If by "nurturing" you mean "nurturing," great, I think you should host a nurturing event — which could well also be an all-gender event if you play your cards right.
If by "nurturing" you mean "all women, but I don't want to come right out and say it," fuck it, I think you should own what you want and host an all-women event.
It sounds a little like you're getting tangled up in trying to be Unproblematic, and in trying to make this all things to all people. Well, this can't be all things to all people. You're going to exclude someone — for instance, you'll either exclude men, or you'll exclude people who are 100% unwilling to come if men are there. So... what do you actually want?
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:34 PM on April 20, 2018 [25 favorites]
If you want to host an event for all genders, I think you should do that.
If you want to host an event that's all women, I think you should do that.
If you want to host an event that's all cis women and AFAB genderqueer folks (which is what "women and trans" is usually code for in my experience) then... well, whatever, as a trans woman I think that's kind of weird, but a lot of cis women and AFAB genderqueer folks seem to be into that, so I think you should admit it's what you want and then go ahead and do it.
If by "nurturing" you mean "nurturing," great, I think you should host a nurturing event — which could well also be an all-gender event if you play your cards right.
If by "nurturing" you mean "all women, but I don't want to come right out and say it," fuck it, I think you should own what you want and host an all-women event.
It sounds a little like you're getting tangled up in trying to be Unproblematic, and in trying to make this all things to all people. Well, this can't be all things to all people. You're going to exclude someone — for instance, you'll either exclude men, or you'll exclude people who are 100% unwilling to come if men are there. So... what do you actually want?
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:34 PM on April 20, 2018 [25 favorites]
I'm a fan of saying "women, non binary folks and cis women welcome" to my events that seek to be safe and inclusive for occulted and oppressed groups only.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:35 PM on April 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:35 PM on April 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
(because I can't be all things to all people that means usually trans men are excluded from events that feel "safe and inclusive" for me, but I don't default trans men in cis manhood so I'm still learning how to deal with that. I guess should just ask my trans masc cousin how he feels about it. Like nebulawindphone says there's no Universal Unproblematic here.)
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:39 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:39 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Uninviting him, or asking his partner about it yet again in the hope that she'll uninvite him for you, would be incredibly rude, yes. Especially since you don't know anything about him and he may not identify himself with the groups you assume he's part of.
posted by metasarah at 12:44 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 12:44 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Maybe he would like to come because he is uncomfortable buying woman's wear in a shop?
posted by 15L06 at 12:48 PM on April 20, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by 15L06 at 12:48 PM on April 20, 2018 [14 favorites]
I think the problem is that like - he may be genuinely interested in trading women's clothes, while still - there's not a great way to say it, but like many cis straight dudes tend to still possess certain kinds of misogynistic baggage no matter whether they think they have completely eradicated it or not, and it can be frustrating when you've got a space that's been liberated from all that and now there's this puppy tripping all over everything, with the best of intentions.
At the same time, he may actually not identify as a cis straight dude, and there's not a good way to really ask that question.
I think maybe you see how it goes and take the partner aside if he's causing issues, and maybe in future move with a more defined inclusive space that still lets you avoid clueless dudes?
posted by corb at 12:54 PM on April 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
At the same time, he may actually not identify as a cis straight dude, and there's not a good way to really ask that question.
I think maybe you see how it goes and take the partner aside if he's causing issues, and maybe in future move with a more defined inclusive space that still lets you avoid clueless dudes?
posted by corb at 12:54 PM on April 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
Anecdotally, my group of friends opened up clothing swaps to be all-gender a couple of years ago, and it's allowed us to both be more inclusive of folks who are less femme as well as letting some of the cis men safely explore some of their more femme preferences. You've made it clear that this is meant to be a comfortable environment for people who are interested in a clothing swap that is for women's/feminine clothing, and they've confirmed that they understand that. You say "I believe it should be up to people to decide their own interests, and if, knowing the space, he wants to be here, I want to include him", so trust that they're on board unless you have evidence otherwise. My partner presents quite cis and male and hetero, and loves these swaps and almost always goes for more feminine stuff than I (a cis mostly hetero woman) do.
It may be true that some of the other attendees might have some trouble believing that a cis dude will fit in-- but that's those people's biases and their issue to deal with.
posted by Kpele at 1:05 PM on April 20, 2018 [23 favorites]
It may be true that some of the other attendees might have some trouble believing that a cis dude will fit in-- but that's those people's biases and their issue to deal with.
posted by Kpele at 1:05 PM on April 20, 2018 [23 favorites]
My social circles also struggle with this. I say let him come and see how it goes. Police bad behavior, not identity. If he does something stupid, pull him aside and tell him what behavior you expect. You can tweak your wording for next time. IME "don't be a jerk" and "this is a nurturing, gentle environment" will produce better results than some awkward convolution like "no cis men," "women and femmes" "women, queer and trans folks" or "gender and sexual minorities." There's no way to make sure your circle is perfectly tuned except to hand vet every attendee. Which you could do in the future! Although it's a lot of work and will probably lower attendance. You could grandfather in past guests and make a policy of talking privately with new members and +1s.
posted by fritillary at 1:22 PM on April 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by fritillary at 1:22 PM on April 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
you're going to exclude someone — for instance, you'll either exclude men, or you'll exclude people who are 100% unwilling to come if men are there. So... what do you actually want?
I think this is really the heart of it. There isn't a way to have your cake and eat it too. If there is an explicit boundary in your head you should articulate that explicitly.
Having been a person who was explicitly welcome to an event based on gender/identity to show up and realize I'm implicitly not welcome. It's pretty shitty, to simultaneously feel hurt and feel like you are hurting people with your presence.
posted by French Fry at 1:33 PM on April 20, 2018 [16 favorites]
I think this is really the heart of it. There isn't a way to have your cake and eat it too. If there is an explicit boundary in your head you should articulate that explicitly.
Having been a person who was explicitly welcome to an event based on gender/identity to show up and realize I'm implicitly not welcome. It's pretty shitty, to simultaneously feel hurt and feel like you are hurting people with your presence.
posted by French Fry at 1:33 PM on April 20, 2018 [16 favorites]
You sound like you're caught in the middle between two people who feel strongly about this: your friend who told you she is bringing her partner (maybe you would have felt better if she had framed it as a request and not a statement?) and someone who has said they would not be comfortable with him there. And you're sort of... not sure how you feel?
The hardest thing about inclusion is that, realistically, you can't be inclusive of everyone and everything. You have to decide what sort of space you want to have. You decided you wanted to "open up" the idea of inclusion to anyone interested in women's clothing and you want the space to be nurturing. That sounds like a fine thing to want. But it seems like someone else really feels like having a man in the space would not work for them because their expectations of the space are different. And realistically you, as the organizer, are going to have to prioritize someone's feelings here.
I agree with others, I think the "wait and see" approach (i.e. why not just take the couple at their word that this is what he is interested in) works if you think you or someone else would feel comfortable HANDLING anything should it come up. You confirmed that he is welcome. To me you should follow through on that but also give your other friend a space to be heard and maybe clarify that either
1. you were maybe too open in your language, you wanted a W/T/F space and will clarify that for next time but Partner is coming this time, or
2. you are okay with this and if the person had expectations of a W/T/F space, that was not in line with what you were planning.
I agree it's complicated but you also have to let people own their feelings somewhat. Some of this will, of course, depend on what sort of friend group you have, but it is okay to not have every person come to every event and still be working to try to make it inclusive. I think being open and honest about your process is the best way forward here.
posted by jessamyn at 1:49 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
The hardest thing about inclusion is that, realistically, you can't be inclusive of everyone and everything. You have to decide what sort of space you want to have. You decided you wanted to "open up" the idea of inclusion to anyone interested in women's clothing and you want the space to be nurturing. That sounds like a fine thing to want. But it seems like someone else really feels like having a man in the space would not work for them because their expectations of the space are different. And realistically you, as the organizer, are going to have to prioritize someone's feelings here.
I agree with others, I think the "wait and see" approach (i.e. why not just take the couple at their word that this is what he is interested in) works if you think you or someone else would feel comfortable HANDLING anything should it come up. You confirmed that he is welcome. To me you should follow through on that but also give your other friend a space to be heard and maybe clarify that either
1. you were maybe too open in your language, you wanted a W/T/F space and will clarify that for next time but Partner is coming this time, or
2. you are okay with this and if the person had expectations of a W/T/F space, that was not in line with what you were planning.
I agree it's complicated but you also have to let people own their feelings somewhat. Some of this will, of course, depend on what sort of friend group you have, but it is okay to not have every person come to every event and still be working to try to make it inclusive. I think being open and honest about your process is the best way forward here.
posted by jessamyn at 1:49 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
One of my partners presents as a pretty bog-standard cis male. He actually has struggled with gender dysphoria for years and has considered transitioning, although he's currently on the side of "transitioning would make my life worse than it currently is" (in part because genes cursed him with strongly masculine traits such that passing would be very hard). Nonetheless, he has a small wardrobe of women's clothing and would certainly be interested in attending a women's clothing swap.
Is this the kind of person that you want to be inclusive of? Because it's exactly the kind of person who's never invited to women's clothing swaps and wouldn't dare show up if not invited.
posted by serelliya at 1:55 PM on April 20, 2018 [48 favorites]
Is this the kind of person that you want to be inclusive of? Because it's exactly the kind of person who's never invited to women's clothing swaps and wouldn't dare show up if not invited.
posted by serelliya at 1:55 PM on April 20, 2018 [48 favorites]
In many parts of my life, I'm not out. So it's really easy to see myself in the "cis-male presenting partner". It really takes a lot of courage for me to feel up to going to things that say they are inclusive to the gender non-conforming because of the things I see here. You say you want to be welcoming to all, but I often feel that tension where people are really wondering if I'm femme enough. I feel it from organizers. I feel it from participants. I feel it from myself.
If you really want to walk the walk about being inclusive, you draw the line at people decide for themselves if they are enough to come. An anyone who feels otherwise can stay home.
posted by advicepig at 3:15 PM on April 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
If you really want to walk the walk about being inclusive, you draw the line at people decide for themselves if they are enough to come. An anyone who feels otherwise can stay home.
posted by advicepig at 3:15 PM on April 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
As long as there are private changing areas and he treats fellow attendees with respect, I see no problem.
posted by brujita at 3:35 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by brujita at 3:35 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think you have to be honest with yourself, about what you want out of the space and your assumptions about other people. You are asking the other participants to trust your judgement in inviting your gay friend while not extending that same trust to this woman with respect to her partner's participation. Perhaps your friend is known to the whole group, perhaps this woman misreads rooms regularly, we don't know. But on the face of it, you're asking to have things two ways (or making (or relying on others making) some questionable assumptions about gay men). I'm bothered by the assumption that the partner is obviously both cis and straight and therefore obviously cannot possibly be interested in exchanging femme clothing.
I don't generally participate in women/trans/femme spaces as a queer transmasculine person because I'm assumed to be a cis man (and I think often assumed to be straight) and, like French Fry said above, "[i]t's pretty shitty, to simultaneously feel hurt and feel like you are hurting people with your presence." But I do wish people were more honest with themselves about how those spaces often function and who feels welcome and not welcome.
posted by hoyland at 3:38 PM on April 20, 2018 [12 favorites]
I don't generally participate in women/trans/femme spaces as a queer transmasculine person because I'm assumed to be a cis man (and I think often assumed to be straight) and, like French Fry said above, "[i]t's pretty shitty, to simultaneously feel hurt and feel like you are hurting people with your presence." But I do wish people were more honest with themselves about how those spaces often function and who feels welcome and not welcome.
posted by hoyland at 3:38 PM on April 20, 2018 [12 favorites]
Point being, sometimes the greater good entails my absence and that's life*, but please understand that I'm being excluded and how. And it's the same thing here--decide if this group wants or needs to exclude men with an interest in exchanging femme clothing and own that choice.
*It's not always "fine"--transmasculine people can end up left out in the cold from all directions sometimes.
posted by hoyland at 3:42 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
*It's not always "fine"--transmasculine people can end up left out in the cold from all directions sometimes.
posted by hoyland at 3:42 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
This is really complicated, even as someone who as attended clothing swaps. I basically agree with jessamyn.
There is a lot to unpack here, and, yeah, you're kind of caught in the middle and may have to choose and define what you want from the event. This is valid.
On one hand I'd be personally uncomfortable with cis/straight men attending and the energy it would bring. Honestly, even if it was a reliable and known cis-male friend and known ally I'd probably still be uncomfortable or less comfortable, and I know I'd be less likely to attend or participate. This would be even more so with a stranger, whether or not it was someone's partner. The younger and more frightened version of me would feel even more strongly about this.
I would still probably attend an open all genders swap, but my expectations would be different, and I wouldn't go into it thinking it was the kind of femme-focused safe/supportive/healing space you're describing and trying to create. My guard would definitely be more up.
I might be edging towards essentialism, but I find the man in question can be a perfectly fine human being but the energy and modes of communication are usually different, and I've experienced the differences between w/t/femme clothing swap spaces and mixed/inclusive/anything goes spaces, and while both are valid, the latter seems like it's harder to pull off and be more of a healing/transformative space and less of a general costume party.
And my real world experience and perspective on clothing swaps in particular is all rooted with really good folks who are not gender essentialists. I'm talking artists and ravers and a lot of queer, trans and pangender folk, and femme-space clothing swaps are definitely more emotionally supportive and intimate especially when it's transwomen getting to express and experience healing and sisterhood. People talk about the stories behind clothes and the fabric of their lives more in the femme-focused spaces, for example, whereas my experiences with widely inclusive swaps tend to be more fun, practical and/or theatrical or whatever, and there's definitely a lot more strutting/posing/flirting in the space because *eyeroll, handwave* dudes be peacockin' and goofing off - specifically at the women in attendance.
On the other hand I might (would) also be excluding a version of myself or someone still not out, perhaps not even to themselves, or as serelliya says, someone who is out to themselves but otherwise feeling stuck or trapped and all too often excluded.
Or as hoyland points out, someone trans-masculine that has a bunch of femme clothes they need to get rid of and/or an active interest in.
I would try to reach out and confirm that this person's partner is at least gender-flexible or non-conforming and actively interested in engaging from a femme space and reiterate your goals in this, that even supportive but masculine-aligned/expressive guests aren't what you had in mind.
But I tend to have no problems throwing out standards of social politeness and being seen as rude in the effort to create safe spaces. I would rather stick with trying to make the space I had in mind happen and risk offending someone - but I would have a personal bias and interest in making that happen because I don't have enough of those spaces, and I've directly seen/felt the differences between them.
And if the space you're trying to make is a femme-focused and positive space more than a gender inclusive clothing swap, you'll have to make that choice.
But part of how I would do that is with as much clear communication as I can bring to the table.
Like following up with "So, I should try to be more clear about my expectations and goals for this - I want this to be a w/t/f safe space. Is your partner going to be participating from a personally authentic femme identity or space or are they comfortably cis-het and just attending because they're open minded and flexible? Because myself and some of the current guests are likely to be uncomfortable with the latter, and I'd like to clear this up before the event. It's about brain/emotional gender, not birth gender or genitals."
Which, crap, just further complicates things, because shouldn't it be ok if the dudeliest of dudes wants to wear a pretty dress? Yes, of course.
But again, this goes back to safe spaces and expectations and defining what you are trying to define and create.
And to bring the logic full circle - the dudeliest dude in a dress is still the dudeliest dude, and all of this is fine as it's own thing and can still make a safe w/f/t space no longer that specific kind of safe space. It's not about the clothes or the genitals. It's about presence and presentation and emotional spaces.
Further complicating things is that I would personally feel the same about very masculine FTM trans men joining a femme-specific space and swap, and that even sometimes includes GQ/transmasc folks. (And, err, I tend to actively like or crush on GQ/pan-masc folks!)
It really does often come down to emotional presentation, energy and communication/interaction styles and how much testosterone vs. estrogen is going on and what space or end of the spectrum they're operating in.
If you're trying to create a biologically/socially inclusive but femme-focused clothing swap, you can try to word it like that, and the language can even be welcoming and inclusive to people who aren't socially out who could benefit the most from it. (IE, self identifying, pre-transition.)
Also, the last thing I could personally say about this is that if I were this woman's partner, I'd be communicating or passing a message about my identity to confirm that I was closeted and not actually cis even though it scared the ever living shit out of me.
Because I've been there and it was for a w/t/f clothing swap and hang out like this. I knew it was important to communicate my intent and reasons for wanting to participate because I understood it was a safe/private space and that it wasn't (just) a party.
Being carefully open about it and brave within the group definitely was the right thing to do. It communicated my intent and identity as well as my (lack of) experience, and helped express and communicate that I was new. And shy and scared. And not a threat.
It was wonderful and I was treated very well and accepted a lot easier because I made the choice to communicate my intent to participate.
In the end it's up to you and the collective attendees, really, and what your goals are. It's never a hard and bright line in the sand.
posted by loquacious at 4:22 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
There is a lot to unpack here, and, yeah, you're kind of caught in the middle and may have to choose and define what you want from the event. This is valid.
On one hand I'd be personally uncomfortable with cis/straight men attending and the energy it would bring. Honestly, even if it was a reliable and known cis-male friend and known ally I'd probably still be uncomfortable or less comfortable, and I know I'd be less likely to attend or participate. This would be even more so with a stranger, whether or not it was someone's partner. The younger and more frightened version of me would feel even more strongly about this.
I would still probably attend an open all genders swap, but my expectations would be different, and I wouldn't go into it thinking it was the kind of femme-focused safe/supportive/healing space you're describing and trying to create. My guard would definitely be more up.
I might be edging towards essentialism, but I find the man in question can be a perfectly fine human being but the energy and modes of communication are usually different, and I've experienced the differences between w/t/femme clothing swap spaces and mixed/inclusive/anything goes spaces, and while both are valid, the latter seems like it's harder to pull off and be more of a healing/transformative space and less of a general costume party.
And my real world experience and perspective on clothing swaps in particular is all rooted with really good folks who are not gender essentialists. I'm talking artists and ravers and a lot of queer, trans and pangender folk, and femme-space clothing swaps are definitely more emotionally supportive and intimate especially when it's transwomen getting to express and experience healing and sisterhood. People talk about the stories behind clothes and the fabric of their lives more in the femme-focused spaces, for example, whereas my experiences with widely inclusive swaps tend to be more fun, practical and/or theatrical or whatever, and there's definitely a lot more strutting/posing/flirting in the space because *eyeroll, handwave* dudes be peacockin' and goofing off - specifically at the women in attendance.
On the other hand I might (would) also be excluding a version of myself or someone still not out, perhaps not even to themselves, or as serelliya says, someone who is out to themselves but otherwise feeling stuck or trapped and all too often excluded.
Or as hoyland points out, someone trans-masculine that has a bunch of femme clothes they need to get rid of and/or an active interest in.
I would try to reach out and confirm that this person's partner is at least gender-flexible or non-conforming and actively interested in engaging from a femme space and reiterate your goals in this, that even supportive but masculine-aligned/expressive guests aren't what you had in mind.
But I tend to have no problems throwing out standards of social politeness and being seen as rude in the effort to create safe spaces. I would rather stick with trying to make the space I had in mind happen and risk offending someone - but I would have a personal bias and interest in making that happen because I don't have enough of those spaces, and I've directly seen/felt the differences between them.
And if the space you're trying to make is a femme-focused and positive space more than a gender inclusive clothing swap, you'll have to make that choice.
But part of how I would do that is with as much clear communication as I can bring to the table.
Like following up with "So, I should try to be more clear about my expectations and goals for this - I want this to be a w/t/f safe space. Is your partner going to be participating from a personally authentic femme identity or space or are they comfortably cis-het and just attending because they're open minded and flexible? Because myself and some of the current guests are likely to be uncomfortable with the latter, and I'd like to clear this up before the event. It's about brain/emotional gender, not birth gender or genitals."
Which, crap, just further complicates things, because shouldn't it be ok if the dudeliest of dudes wants to wear a pretty dress? Yes, of course.
But again, this goes back to safe spaces and expectations and defining what you are trying to define and create.
And to bring the logic full circle - the dudeliest dude in a dress is still the dudeliest dude, and all of this is fine as it's own thing and can still make a safe w/f/t space no longer that specific kind of safe space. It's not about the clothes or the genitals. It's about presence and presentation and emotional spaces.
Further complicating things is that I would personally feel the same about very masculine FTM trans men joining a femme-specific space and swap, and that even sometimes includes GQ/transmasc folks. (And, err, I tend to actively like or crush on GQ/pan-masc folks!)
It really does often come down to emotional presentation, energy and communication/interaction styles and how much testosterone vs. estrogen is going on and what space or end of the spectrum they're operating in.
If you're trying to create a biologically/socially inclusive but femme-focused clothing swap, you can try to word it like that, and the language can even be welcoming and inclusive to people who aren't socially out who could benefit the most from it. (IE, self identifying, pre-transition.)
Also, the last thing I could personally say about this is that if I were this woman's partner, I'd be communicating or passing a message about my identity to confirm that I was closeted and not actually cis even though it scared the ever living shit out of me.
Because I've been there and it was for a w/t/f clothing swap and hang out like this. I knew it was important to communicate my intent and reasons for wanting to participate because I understood it was a safe/private space and that it wasn't (just) a party.
Being carefully open about it and brave within the group definitely was the right thing to do. It communicated my intent and identity as well as my (lack of) experience, and helped express and communicate that I was new. And shy and scared. And not a threat.
It was wonderful and I was treated very well and accepted a lot easier because I made the choice to communicate my intent to participate.
In the end it's up to you and the collective attendees, really, and what your goals are. It's never a hard and bright line in the sand.
posted by loquacious at 4:22 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
NGL, in this situation, I would be more uncomfortable with the gay guy than with the woman who wants to invite her partner. Gay men have a certain history of putting misogyny into their use of femininity that I'd find way harder to deal with than someone's partner who might be working out gender stuff wanting to be there. In the latter case, I'd find it way more uncomfortable to be there with someone who really wanted to interrogate others' gender feelings before letting them be there, because I'm definitely less "a woman" than a hell of a lot of DMAB people.
posted by Sequence at 4:32 PM on April 20, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by Sequence at 4:32 PM on April 20, 2018 [15 favorites]
For context, I'm a gay trans guy. I don't understand what "women/trans/femme" means. Am I okay because I'm trans? Your cis gay friend is okay, why? He isn't women nor trans and I don't even know what femme means in this context.
If it's open to "people who are interested in clothes marketed towards women," then stick to that, which means not disinviting your friend's partner.
If it's open to women, it excludes both the gay guy & your friend's partner, but includes trans women.
If it's open to women and trans people... why? Why would you want me, a guy with a beard wearing flannel shirts, there? Do you mean women and non-binary people?
I know what I'd do in your situation, but it's not my event, so you need to decide what you want.
posted by AFABulous at 4:39 PM on April 20, 2018 [20 favorites]
If it's open to "people who are interested in clothes marketed towards women," then stick to that, which means not disinviting your friend's partner.
If it's open to women, it excludes both the gay guy & your friend's partner, but includes trans women.
If it's open to women and trans people... why? Why would you want me, a guy with a beard wearing flannel shirts, there? Do you mean women and non-binary people?
I know what I'd do in your situation, but it's not my event, so you need to decide what you want.
posted by AFABulous at 4:39 PM on April 20, 2018 [20 favorites]
Sometimes when I open up parties to waaaay too many people I let everyone come but I have a little backup plan.
Often I assign someone to be, sort of, the bouncer. If someone just needs to be managed the bouncer will keep that person in conversation, or in one physical area.
Or, you could plan to “need help” - run out of margarita mix and need someone to run to the store. Or know how to sabotage your sink to make it leak. Make the dude run the errand or fix the sink.
Plan ahead. Let him come, it might be great. If it’s not great have a backup plan.
posted by littlewater at 7:08 PM on April 20, 2018
Often I assign someone to be, sort of, the bouncer. If someone just needs to be managed the bouncer will keep that person in conversation, or in one physical area.
Or, you could plan to “need help” - run out of margarita mix and need someone to run to the store. Or know how to sabotage your sink to make it leak. Make the dude run the errand or fix the sink.
Plan ahead. Let him come, it might be great. If it’s not great have a backup plan.
posted by littlewater at 7:08 PM on April 20, 2018
If you're going to allow the gay cis man, then without having anything other than assumptions about this person's identity I really don't think it's fair to exclude him. I am good friends with someone who never gave me any "w/t/f" vibes until she came out and transitioned, because she had been strictly hiding that aspect of herself. I understand wanting to create a safe space, but I think you need to be careful with the assumptions you are making.
posted by brook horse at 8:42 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 8:42 PM on April 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
This is hard. I regularly swap with a group of (women) friends and sometimes one of them wants to bring her (cis male) partner. I feel like I should comment on this because this partner and I, specifically, have a very similar aesthetic/size and he and I have pieces we’ve swapped and wear frequently. I don’t always love having him there, even though I like him a lot! It’s definitely a different feel and clothing swaps can get emotional. However, if I need an emotional letting-go of clothing I will organize a swap with a specific invite list, and an open-invitation group is just going to be different. I don’t have a lot of good advice, really, but I think I come down on the side of letting him join for this one and see how it goes. I think you’ve opened this up so let it be open. He seems to have an interest. Maybe quietly assure he plans to participate and not just observe?
posted by jeweled accumulation at 7:51 AM on April 21, 2018
posted by jeweled accumulation at 7:51 AM on April 21, 2018
I’d honestly advise that you either explicitly disinvite, or cancel this event and change policy for the next time.
I have twice been the cis male partner who was brought along to a women-focused event. Not because I was closeted, or exploring my gender identity. But because the event said “everyone welcome” in the invite, and my then-partner was very insistent on the idea that because I was theoretically welcome, I should come with her.
(Once should have been enough, but I was 19, had low confidence, and was deeply uncomfortable saying no. Life lessons.)
Both times, I attended, and was the only cis male present. Everyone was polite but uncomfortable around me — either due to my simple presence, or because I was a 19-year-old guy who was poor at masking “doesn’t want to be here”. I was likewise uncomfortable and felt guilty and horrible. It sucked for all involved, we left early, no one was happy.
I don’t know your friend, her partner, or their reasons for his attending. You could let him attend, and it could theoretically go well. But the odds do not seem to be in favor, and it could easily lead to a poor experience for everyone — him included.
The situation sucks, because uninviting someone who you explicitly said “yes” to before is certainly rude. But is avoiding that rudeness actually worth the possibility of making the whole event uncomfortable?
posted by fencerjimmy at 10:25 AM on April 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
I have twice been the cis male partner who was brought along to a women-focused event. Not because I was closeted, or exploring my gender identity. But because the event said “everyone welcome” in the invite, and my then-partner was very insistent on the idea that because I was theoretically welcome, I should come with her.
(Once should have been enough, but I was 19, had low confidence, and was deeply uncomfortable saying no. Life lessons.)
Both times, I attended, and was the only cis male present. Everyone was polite but uncomfortable around me — either due to my simple presence, or because I was a 19-year-old guy who was poor at masking “doesn’t want to be here”. I was likewise uncomfortable and felt guilty and horrible. It sucked for all involved, we left early, no one was happy.
I don’t know your friend, her partner, or their reasons for his attending. You could let him attend, and it could theoretically go well. But the odds do not seem to be in favor, and it could easily lead to a poor experience for everyone — him included.
The situation sucks, because uninviting someone who you explicitly said “yes” to before is certainly rude. But is avoiding that rudeness actually worth the possibility of making the whole event uncomfortable?
posted by fencerjimmy at 10:25 AM on April 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sometimes cis/het men crossdress. Unless he causes a problem I think you should roll with it and see what happens.
posted by irisclara at 7:42 PM on April 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by irisclara at 7:42 PM on April 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks, all. You were right -- I didn't know what I wanted, nor did I have the language to articulate the specific alternatives. I feel much better prepared for the next time.
posted by ramenopres at 10:17 PM on April 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ramenopres at 10:17 PM on April 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by WeekendJen at 12:17 PM on April 20, 2018 [11 favorites]