How do I do divorce? Snowflakes inside.
April 3, 2018 1:37 PM Subscribe
Help me think through the practical steps in my snowflaky scenario of leaving my marriage of 24 years. I don’t want to focus on the reasons I want to leave, but how I would do this from a practical and financial standpoint. I say "leave" but I mean divorce.
Me (F, 51). Partner: (M, 52)
I work full-time. I make about $66k/year
He works part time for part of the year (adjunct college instructor). Is unable to work more or different job due to health reasons. He makes about $12K/year. Is not eligible for government disability because reasons.
We live with and pay rent to a friend to whom we are both close.
My husband could not afford the rent on his own. I am fully aware of and fine with the fact that I will need to pay him alimony.
What I think might happen:
My husband might move back to his family farm in the Midwest. He could live with family there and regain the quiet he needs to best manage his illness.
I would move back to my home in another state and live with my family until I get settled and find work. I would rather stay in town I'm in, but can't afford the cost of supporting us both in different households.
Primary complications are the cost of moving for us both and trying to figure out how to deal with payments on a loan I took out of my retirement account while I’m not working. The cost of moving would mean a large chunk of money to get out of lease which goes for about 2 more years. The friend we rent from is retired on disability and can’t afford to suck up those costs. Best case scenario is she would have to find another renter.
So, MeFriends, these are the facts that have been rolling around in my head. I just don't know what to consider next or how to go about this. Thank you for anything you have to offer.
Me (F, 51). Partner: (M, 52)
I work full-time. I make about $66k/year
He works part time for part of the year (adjunct college instructor). Is unable to work more or different job due to health reasons. He makes about $12K/year. Is not eligible for government disability because reasons.
We live with and pay rent to a friend to whom we are both close.
My husband could not afford the rent on his own. I am fully aware of and fine with the fact that I will need to pay him alimony.
What I think might happen:
My husband might move back to his family farm in the Midwest. He could live with family there and regain the quiet he needs to best manage his illness.
I would move back to my home in another state and live with my family until I get settled and find work. I would rather stay in town I'm in, but can't afford the cost of supporting us both in different households.
Primary complications are the cost of moving for us both and trying to figure out how to deal with payments on a loan I took out of my retirement account while I’m not working. The cost of moving would mean a large chunk of money to get out of lease which goes for about 2 more years. The friend we rent from is retired on disability and can’t afford to suck up those costs. Best case scenario is she would have to find another renter.
So, MeFriends, these are the facts that have been rolling around in my head. I just don't know what to consider next or how to go about this. Thank you for anything you have to offer.
What's your relationship status? Pick something out of this spectrum: explosive - acromonious - quietly seething - chilly - uneasy truce - distant - businesslike co-operation - moderately affectionate - mutually supportive.
A lot will depend on this. If your relationship falls anywhere from "uneasy truce" rightward, then it might be possible for you to continue to cohabit until your finances are more stable. It may be miserable but money is money, and cannot be argued with, unless something more fundamental like sanity or safety is at stake - which it would be if the relationship falls more toward the left.
All my sympathies. I went through this myself, with my ex swerving anywhere from acrimonious to uneasy truce depending on the day and me having to calm him down and manage his feelings so I could survive until my move-out date. It was the hardest thing, and my heart goes out to you that you are having to deal with this too.
posted by MiraK at 1:50 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
A lot will depend on this. If your relationship falls anywhere from "uneasy truce" rightward, then it might be possible for you to continue to cohabit until your finances are more stable. It may be miserable but money is money, and cannot be argued with, unless something more fundamental like sanity or safety is at stake - which it would be if the relationship falls more toward the left.
All my sympathies. I went through this myself, with my ex swerving anywhere from acrimonious to uneasy truce depending on the day and me having to calm him down and manage his feelings so I could survive until my move-out date. It was the hardest thing, and my heart goes out to you that you are having to deal with this too.
posted by MiraK at 1:50 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
You need a lawyer. Since you live in one state and expect to move to another (and him to move to a third state), you need to know whether there are reasons to file in one state over another. Divorce procedures and obligations vary significantly between states. It's possible that in one of your possible states, things are easy enough that you can do the paperwork yourself without a lawyer, but I'd certainly want to some paid expert advice to get things started. And I'd suggest that you should do this before you tell your husband your plans, certainly before you part ways.
posted by katieinshoes at 1:55 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by katieinshoes at 1:55 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Relationship status: Moderately affectionate & mutually supportive.
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 1:58 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 1:58 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
It is great you are not acrimonious. One thing I see a lot is that women act more than fair in divorce proceedings when things are friendly and the man has been a low performer/not a full partner. And in a few years he is doing really well, has lots of support, and the woman is struggling, especially financially. It is nice that you are thinking of alimony but you can’t afford it. Not on a $60,000 salary, not if you are being saddled with the mutual debt, and definitely not if you are relocating. In my jurisdiction he wouldn’t be eligible for alimony with such a low household income between the two of you. There would also be the expectation that he becomes self-sufficient after the separation too. The quiet of the family farm sounds nice, but it isn’t your job to fund his lifestyle choices anymore. He also doesn’t get to walk away from your mutual debts (loan and lease) like divorce is a get out of jail free card.
How do you want your life to look in a few years? Working a job you enjoy, living somewhere you like and having a healthy retirement fund, right? Or do you want to support your ex relaxin on the farm while you work well into your retirement years? If you get sick he won’t come back and support you, and right about now if when a lot of people have a health scare that really affects them.
So one plan of action would be for him to move to the family farm, he looks for work out there and applies for government benefits, he agrees to pay a fair portion of the retirement fund loan (somewhere between 30%-50%). You can then stay in your current living space, maybe look for a side gig, and move on with your life. I don’t see the economic benefit of leaving your job AND having to pay for a lease on a place you no longer live.
If the issue is that he won’t move out unless you do too, then this is NOT a mutually suppportive relationship. It’s just that he has both of you convinced to put his needs first. If that is the case you will need to rethink your strategy to get to your goals from a new paradigm.
Good luck. It is a tough situation to be in, but you really have to look out for yourself, no one else will.
posted by saucysault at 2:32 PM on April 3, 2018 [50 favorites]
How do you want your life to look in a few years? Working a job you enjoy, living somewhere you like and having a healthy retirement fund, right? Or do you want to support your ex relaxin on the farm while you work well into your retirement years? If you get sick he won’t come back and support you, and right about now if when a lot of people have a health scare that really affects them.
So one plan of action would be for him to move to the family farm, he looks for work out there and applies for government benefits, he agrees to pay a fair portion of the retirement fund loan (somewhere between 30%-50%). You can then stay in your current living space, maybe look for a side gig, and move on with your life. I don’t see the economic benefit of leaving your job AND having to pay for a lease on a place you no longer live.
If the issue is that he won’t move out unless you do too, then this is NOT a mutually suppportive relationship. It’s just that he has both of you convinced to put his needs first. If that is the case you will need to rethink your strategy to get to your goals from a new paradigm.
Good luck. It is a tough situation to be in, but you really have to look out for yourself, no one else will.
posted by saucysault at 2:32 PM on April 3, 2018 [50 favorites]
Oh wait, I just creeped your profile and your ex was an opioid addict six months ago. I’m doubling down on the advice to prioritize YOURSELF, especially financially.
posted by saucysault at 2:46 PM on April 3, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 2:46 PM on April 3, 2018 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: Quick note: It might be a bit weird, but we could both continue living in the same place, at least until the end of the lease.
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 2:52 PM on April 3, 2018
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 2:52 PM on April 3, 2018
The lease problem is solvable by working with your landlord to find a new renter, preferably one that pays market rent and not the friends and family rate you pay.
I suspect you have lived in the unit a while and it is due for repairs and upgrades at your landlord's expense (paint, floors, rugs, some fixtures, window screens, etc.) whether or not you move, check on tenancy laws in your area. Look these up. You can not re-rent a dump to a new decent tenant. It is possible to find a great new responsible tenant paying market rent if the unit is clean, in good repair, and updated. Paint and cabinet knobs, decent light fixtures. You should not pay for these things, you might help with the labor if you are handy.
Don't advertise or show the unit until it is empty and updated.
You say you are working, but then you say you are not working and have a loan. See a lawyer because you can't be financially responsible for everyone. I can see a path where you and spouse separate, there is no or low alimony, but you walk away solely responsible for the loan (which you would have paid back either way.)
That's just off the top of my head, but two things I have experience with. Best of luck creating a new life you feel good about.
posted by jbenben at 2:54 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
I suspect you have lived in the unit a while and it is due for repairs and upgrades at your landlord's expense (paint, floors, rugs, some fixtures, window screens, etc.) whether or not you move, check on tenancy laws in your area. Look these up. You can not re-rent a dump to a new decent tenant. It is possible to find a great new responsible tenant paying market rent if the unit is clean, in good repair, and updated. Paint and cabinet knobs, decent light fixtures. You should not pay for these things, you might help with the labor if you are handy.
Don't advertise or show the unit until it is empty and updated.
You say you are working, but then you say you are not working and have a loan. See a lawyer because you can't be financially responsible for everyone. I can see a path where you and spouse separate, there is no or low alimony, but you walk away solely responsible for the loan (which you would have paid back either way.)
That's just off the top of my head, but two things I have experience with. Best of luck creating a new life you feel good about.
posted by jbenben at 2:54 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: To be clear: I am working. I didn't say I wasn't. I do have a loan taken from my retirement funds, which we can do as state employees. We live with our landlord, who is a close friend, and we pay her the rent which she uses to pay the mortgage. It's a lovely home that doesn't need much repair.
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 2:58 PM on April 3, 2018
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 2:58 PM on April 3, 2018
Once you have made the decision to leave staying together is an agony. You need to move on. It will not be good for your mental health to stay and you need to put your own health first.
I know you are a librarian too, have you considered applying for jobs in Canadian Libraries? You would be able to work under NAFTA and Library wages tend to be higher in Canada (taxes are lower and we don’t have anywhere near the same healthcare costs), at least in urban Ontario. A new country with a higher wage might be the break you need to reset your life. If he is staying, he can pay the rent and you don’t need to worry about your friend. He can borrow money or get another job once the bank of KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat is closed for further withdrawals due to him being in overdraft for many years.
It is nice that you are thinking of your friend, but you need to put yourself first. If the friend had a crisis and needed to sell the house she would feel terrible about kicking you out ... but she would still kick you out. And you would understand, right? I’m sure she will understand too about breaking the lease and getting a new tenant.
posted by saucysault at 3:06 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
I know you are a librarian too, have you considered applying for jobs in Canadian Libraries? You would be able to work under NAFTA and Library wages tend to be higher in Canada (taxes are lower and we don’t have anywhere near the same healthcare costs), at least in urban Ontario. A new country with a higher wage might be the break you need to reset your life. If he is staying, he can pay the rent and you don’t need to worry about your friend. He can borrow money or get another job once the bank of KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat is closed for further withdrawals due to him being in overdraft for many years.
It is nice that you are thinking of your friend, but you need to put yourself first. If the friend had a crisis and needed to sell the house she would feel terrible about kicking you out ... but she would still kick you out. And you would understand, right? I’m sure she will understand too about breaking the lease and getting a new tenant.
posted by saucysault at 3:06 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Best answer: It doesn't seem to make sense to move because you can't afford rent and yet continue paying rent for up to two years. Unless I'm missing something, it's seems like it could be an either/or situation. And if I were in your shoes, I would choose one big life change at a time. So get divorced this year, and once that's done, start thinking about whether or not you want to move to another city. You can also look for a job while you're thinking about moving, so that you might not have to move without a job.
I get the sense you are a very conscientious person who takes your responsibilities to other people very seriously. Which is good. But I am also worried that you are putting everyone else in this situation's financial health before your own, and that is worrying. If you are divorcing your partner, you are no longer financial partners.
Also, it's good that you're thinking through what your husband can do after you divorce, but he may choose another option, and honestly, it's not really your responsibility plan that for him or to pay for his life once you are divorced. I understand feeling responsibility for him, since you are married and it sounds like he's been dependent on you. I think it's reasonable to help him get started on a new life, if you can afford to do so without endangering your own financial survival. Now, you may find yourself in a situation where you are required to pay him alimony, but please don't offer it because you feel guilty. It would be one thing if he'd been at home raising your children while you built a lucrative career, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.
Anyway, I agree with the advice to consult a lawyer first- before you talk to your husband, or your landlord, or anyone else. Any good lawyer will see you for an appointment at no cost, and can give you an initial sense of your options.
Good luck!
posted by lunasol at 3:50 PM on April 3, 2018 [20 favorites]
I get the sense you are a very conscientious person who takes your responsibilities to other people very seriously. Which is good. But I am also worried that you are putting everyone else in this situation's financial health before your own, and that is worrying. If you are divorcing your partner, you are no longer financial partners.
Also, it's good that you're thinking through what your husband can do after you divorce, but he may choose another option, and honestly, it's not really your responsibility plan that for him or to pay for his life once you are divorced. I understand feeling responsibility for him, since you are married and it sounds like he's been dependent on you. I think it's reasonable to help him get started on a new life, if you can afford to do so without endangering your own financial survival. Now, you may find yourself in a situation where you are required to pay him alimony, but please don't offer it because you feel guilty. It would be one thing if he'd been at home raising your children while you built a lucrative career, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.
Anyway, I agree with the advice to consult a lawyer first- before you talk to your husband, or your landlord, or anyone else. Any good lawyer will see you for an appointment at no cost, and can give you an initial sense of your options.
Good luck!
posted by lunasol at 3:50 PM on April 3, 2018 [20 favorites]
Favouriting every word of lunasol's answer.
Living together afterward might be weirder than you can imagine and there's a potential for things to very suddenly degrade, so making a longish term commitment around that isn't good. I was in a 22 year relationship and found that getting out of the house allowed me to reframe the view of my place in the world....and I had a lot of "Sixth Sense" moments where I suddenly realized that my sense of duty and responsibility had been abused for a looooong time. Your ex will be making his own choices from here on out and you'll regret it if you blindly follow old scripts on "being supportive".
posted by bonobothegreat at 4:15 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Living together afterward might be weirder than you can imagine and there's a potential for things to very suddenly degrade, so making a longish term commitment around that isn't good. I was in a 22 year relationship and found that getting out of the house allowed me to reframe the view of my place in the world....and I had a lot of "Sixth Sense" moments where I suddenly realized that my sense of duty and responsibility had been abused for a looooong time. Your ex will be making his own choices from here on out and you'll regret it if you blindly follow old scripts on "being supportive".
posted by bonobothegreat at 4:15 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
One potential issue that jumps out is the loan from your retirement account. Make sure you know the full requirements for repayment in light of any plans to move out of state.
If it's an employer-sponsored 401K account, find out if leaving your job triggers any early payment requirement. You'll want to confirm this but according to my quick online research some loans fall under this rule: if you quit or change employers, your entire 401(k) loan balance is due within 60 days. If you can't repay it, the money is treated as a withdrawal. You will owe all Federal and state income taxes on it, plus an additional 10 percent penalty tax if you are under the age of 59.5 years old.
Best of luck to you. You can get through this. I think the suggestions to seek legal advice are good. Having said that, my ex and I divorced amicably without lawyers. We both believe we dealt fairly with each other. And I mean fairly in the "human kindness and decency" sense of the word, not just the legal sense.
Our issues included his underemployment and health issues. I wanted him to be safe and secure, and he is. We drew up our own separation agreement that set forth our financial terms (things like he wouldn't pursue any claims against my retirement accounts, I would pay off his substantial credit card debt, no alimony, etc.). The court did not impose any additional requirements. This was in MA.
Feel free to memail me if you need a friendly ear.
posted by Majorita at 4:24 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
If it's an employer-sponsored 401K account, find out if leaving your job triggers any early payment requirement. You'll want to confirm this but according to my quick online research some loans fall under this rule: if you quit or change employers, your entire 401(k) loan balance is due within 60 days. If you can't repay it, the money is treated as a withdrawal. You will owe all Federal and state income taxes on it, plus an additional 10 percent penalty tax if you are under the age of 59.5 years old.
Best of luck to you. You can get through this. I think the suggestions to seek legal advice are good. Having said that, my ex and I divorced amicably without lawyers. We both believe we dealt fairly with each other. And I mean fairly in the "human kindness and decency" sense of the word, not just the legal sense.
Our issues included his underemployment and health issues. I wanted him to be safe and secure, and he is. We drew up our own separation agreement that set forth our financial terms (things like he wouldn't pursue any claims against my retirement accounts, I would pay off his substantial credit card debt, no alimony, etc.). The court did not impose any additional requirements. This was in MA.
Feel free to memail me if you need a friendly ear.
posted by Majorita at 4:24 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
Husband could perhaps re-apply for gov't disability; sometimes the reasons change over time. (That won't help anything in the immediate future, though.)
Check laws of your state for divorce requirements - they vary a lot. Nolo's Essential Guide to Divorce may be useful, or their Divorce After 50 may be more appropriate.
Seconding (thirding, nthing) the comments about independence, financial and otherwise: once you start proceedings, according to the state, the two of you are on opposite sides of a lawsuit. Officially, you're not working towards a mutually-agreeable solution; you're each fighting for all you can get, and the court is stepping in to make sure nobody's cheating. "Mutually agreeable" is just one data point in the "okay" column, as far as the court is concerned.
Ask for more than you want; challenge any requests that are more than you want to give. You can always negotiate giving more later - or just over paying, if there's spousal support - but changing the court decision just because you hit a dry patch and were unemployed for a few months is a real pain.
Be wary of how much the amicable relationship is based on things staying the same. Divorce is a BIG change, and a lot of people get angry and lash out over big changes, even when they want the change.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 5:02 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Check laws of your state for divorce requirements - they vary a lot. Nolo's Essential Guide to Divorce may be useful, or their Divorce After 50 may be more appropriate.
Seconding (thirding, nthing) the comments about independence, financial and otherwise: once you start proceedings, according to the state, the two of you are on opposite sides of a lawsuit. Officially, you're not working towards a mutually-agreeable solution; you're each fighting for all you can get, and the court is stepping in to make sure nobody's cheating. "Mutually agreeable" is just one data point in the "okay" column, as far as the court is concerned.
Ask for more than you want; challenge any requests that are more than you want to give. You can always negotiate giving more later - or just over paying, if there's spousal support - but changing the court decision just because you hit a dry patch and were unemployed for a few months is a real pain.
Be wary of how much the amicable relationship is based on things staying the same. Divorce is a BIG change, and a lot of people get angry and lash out over big changes, even when they want the change.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 5:02 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Wow, I kind of want to take back what I said because the contradicting advice on this thread is fantastic. OP, listen to them and NOT ME.
posted by MiraK at 5:26 PM on April 3, 2018
posted by MiraK at 5:26 PM on April 3, 2018
Response by poster: Thank you all very much. I appreciate you more than you know.
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 6:32 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 6:32 PM on April 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's good that you care enough about your soon to be ex that you don't want to screw him over. But don't put yourself in the poorhouse either because of guilt. You can be a decent human being without being a doormat.
Also, you can't financially plan for what you think his future plans are going to look like because once you two split, that's out of your control. For all you know, he will take up with someone else, move in with them, and you're still left paying off the loan you took out for both of you from your retirement fund and paying huge amounts of guilt alimony to fund your ex and his new girlfriend's life together.
posted by Jubey at 6:32 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also, you can't financially plan for what you think his future plans are going to look like because once you two split, that's out of your control. For all you know, he will take up with someone else, move in with them, and you're still left paying off the loan you took out for both of you from your retirement fund and paying huge amounts of guilt alimony to fund your ex and his new girlfriend's life together.
posted by Jubey at 6:32 PM on April 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Best answer: If your ex can't work, he should be able to get disability. He is not your responsibility and imho, 60k is just enough for you to get by. Your ex can room with somebody else. He'll figure it out. Meet with a lawyer asap. Then sit down with ex. Then do whatever your heart desires.
Divorces go differently in nearly every county, so please just ask a local lawyer. Be civil but also be informed.
posted by Kalmya at 7:18 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
Divorces go differently in nearly every county, so please just ask a local lawyer. Be civil but also be informed.
posted by Kalmya at 7:18 PM on April 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
I divorced amicably after a decade to someone with a pretty big sense of entitlement and wound up paying a lot more than I really should have so I wouldn’t have to deal with a lot of fussing. Wound up heavily burned out with work. I mean it’s great to be kind to someone you love but in five ten years these decisions you’re about to make may start to seriously chafe. What I am saying is even tho it seemed fair, that was only because I am a conflict avoidant chump. Get an advocate who can look at it objectively.
You seem like a really kind person. Remember your first responsibility as an about to be single person is to be kind to your self and your future.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:18 PM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
You seem like a really kind person. Remember your first responsibility as an about to be single person is to be kind to your self and your future.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:18 PM on April 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
The 60-day rule for paying back a 401k rule was changed in the tax bill in 2017, and it's now months longer.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:28 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:28 PM on April 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
I was married for over 25 years. The ex was and is a nice guy and we split things pretty much 50/50 but I have been surprised by his behavior since the divorce. Specially about money and our children (1 adult, 1 minor; both living with me). He makes 3 times what I make and there was no debt after the divorce. If we did not have a minor child I would go no contact. He remarried within a year and I am sure part of it is her whispering in his ear and the other bits are just out of character to the person I knew for 30 years. So please, put yourself first. Protect your future.
posted by ReiFlinx at 7:17 AM on April 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ReiFlinx at 7:17 AM on April 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 1:47 PM on April 3, 2018 [4 favorites]