Is This Post-Bacc Comp Sci Degree Good Enough for My Needs?
March 31, 2018 9:36 PM Subscribe
I'm a video game designer looking to switch careers and maybe/maybe not industries in the near future. I'm looking at a specific program for a computer science degree and want some input from general software engineers and video game programmers (or others with relevant knowledge) on whether this program will adequately prepare me for the switch. Specifics inside.
I'm a level designer who's worked in the AAA video game industry for just shy of 10 years. The game industry is incredibly unstable, especially for content designers such as myself, as we're really only absolutely necessary while the game is in production (as opposed to pre-production and post-launch). We're often some of the first to get cut after launching.
I have little job security or bargaining power and very few employment options but my biggest gripe is the lack of geographical stability. There aren't a lot of AAA game studios and there aren't a lot of jobs for AAA level designers so it's common for people in my position to pick up and move to another state or country for a new job every three to five years after launching a game. I've been through countless layoffs at this point, some I've avoided and some I've been affected by, and have worked for five different studios. The prospect of having to pick up and move for financial reasons is always looming. Not to mention, even when things are going well, the game industry requires frequent periods of crunching (50 to 80 hour weeks or more for months, sometimes 6 to 12 months straight). When you add the often grueling hours to lack of job security, it's not always the dream job some people think it is.
I want to stay where I am for the foreseeable future (the SF Bay Area) and to have more job options so that I have a bit more geographical stability. Making more money and being a little more necessary to my employer throughout a project wouldn't hurt either. I'm in my thirties, I have a wife who works in non-profit, and we want to have a child soon-ish.
I've been thinking of switching careers to programming for a while now and I've decided it's time to pull the trigger. I might stay in the game industry or I might get into some other industry as a programmer. Not entirely sure. Obviously, I have a network in the game industry so that might be a bit easier.
Anyway, the work I do involves a lot of scripting (have done visual and text-based). I like the scripting part of the job a lot more than the creative side and often wish I could just do that. I recently completed a full text-adventure side project in Python and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Point is I have some experience with programming/similar work and I like it.
All of these factors have led me to decide I should go back to school for computer science (I already have a degree in an unrelated field). The Bay Area is expensive and I need to pay rent - so much rent - and bills so I need to work while I go back to school. I have an emergency fund but it's still possible I could find myself in a position where I need to move so I feel like I need an online program. I already have a bachelor's degree so I also don't want to go for a degree that requires a bunch of gen ed. One of the few programs I've found that fit my needs is Oregon State's online post-bacc cs degree. This program provides a bachelor's degree in computer science. It's the same degree I'd get if I went to the school in-person. There's a fairly active reddit thread on this program and I'm aware of the pros and cons of it. I plan to do the 2 year track.
I have friends in the game industry that have switched from design to programming without a degree. I know that's an option. But I want the ability to switch industries either immediately after getting the degree or at some point in the future because I may not want to stay in the game industry and I figure I'm best equipped to do that with a bachelor's degree in CS.
Just want some programmers/software engineers in the game industry/similar fields to provide input on whether this program will teach me what I need to know to be a gameplay programmer and/or a programmer in some other field (probably tech or something similar). Looking for some reassurance that this is the way to go before I commit the time and money.
I'm a level designer who's worked in the AAA video game industry for just shy of 10 years. The game industry is incredibly unstable, especially for content designers such as myself, as we're really only absolutely necessary while the game is in production (as opposed to pre-production and post-launch). We're often some of the first to get cut after launching.
I have little job security or bargaining power and very few employment options but my biggest gripe is the lack of geographical stability. There aren't a lot of AAA game studios and there aren't a lot of jobs for AAA level designers so it's common for people in my position to pick up and move to another state or country for a new job every three to five years after launching a game. I've been through countless layoffs at this point, some I've avoided and some I've been affected by, and have worked for five different studios. The prospect of having to pick up and move for financial reasons is always looming. Not to mention, even when things are going well, the game industry requires frequent periods of crunching (50 to 80 hour weeks or more for months, sometimes 6 to 12 months straight). When you add the often grueling hours to lack of job security, it's not always the dream job some people think it is.
I want to stay where I am for the foreseeable future (the SF Bay Area) and to have more job options so that I have a bit more geographical stability. Making more money and being a little more necessary to my employer throughout a project wouldn't hurt either. I'm in my thirties, I have a wife who works in non-profit, and we want to have a child soon-ish.
I've been thinking of switching careers to programming for a while now and I've decided it's time to pull the trigger. I might stay in the game industry or I might get into some other industry as a programmer. Not entirely sure. Obviously, I have a network in the game industry so that might be a bit easier.
Anyway, the work I do involves a lot of scripting (have done visual and text-based). I like the scripting part of the job a lot more than the creative side and often wish I could just do that. I recently completed a full text-adventure side project in Python and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Point is I have some experience with programming/similar work and I like it.
All of these factors have led me to decide I should go back to school for computer science (I already have a degree in an unrelated field). The Bay Area is expensive and I need to pay rent - so much rent - and bills so I need to work while I go back to school. I have an emergency fund but it's still possible I could find myself in a position where I need to move so I feel like I need an online program. I already have a bachelor's degree so I also don't want to go for a degree that requires a bunch of gen ed. One of the few programs I've found that fit my needs is Oregon State's online post-bacc cs degree. This program provides a bachelor's degree in computer science. It's the same degree I'd get if I went to the school in-person. There's a fairly active reddit thread on this program and I'm aware of the pros and cons of it. I plan to do the 2 year track.
I have friends in the game industry that have switched from design to programming without a degree. I know that's an option. But I want the ability to switch industries either immediately after getting the degree or at some point in the future because I may not want to stay in the game industry and I figure I'm best equipped to do that with a bachelor's degree in CS.
Just want some programmers/software engineers in the game industry/similar fields to provide input on whether this program will teach me what I need to know to be a gameplay programmer and/or a programmer in some other field (probably tech or something similar). Looking for some reassurance that this is the way to go before I commit the time and money.
Wow, that program looks like something I might want, so I'll be reading the responses here with interest. Could you post the link to the reddit thread?
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 11:23 PM on March 31, 2018
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 11:23 PM on March 31, 2018
Best answer: I've spent my whole career in technology as either a developer or managing developers. I did a stint in the gaming industry about twenty years ago, so my advice might be somewhat dated. Having worked in industries where software just absolutely has to work, like airline reservations, telecommunications, and medical devices, I was amazed at the lack of rigor in the gaming industry. Both in terms of the overall software development practices and in the actual coding (like very little error handling). One of my colleagues explained that because games have such a short half life and no real support model to speak of, there just wasn't an incentive to do that stuff. The incentive was to go fast and ship running code. If your current experience still resembles that, then I'm going to suggest a lot of that curriculum in the Oregon State program is going to be wasted on you if you stay in the gaming industry. The programming fundamentals classes looks relevant for everything, but the rest of the curriculum looks better suited for developer jobs outside of the gaming industry.
posted by kovacs at 8:52 AM on April 1, 2018
posted by kovacs at 8:52 AM on April 1, 2018
What are going to learn in a CS program that's going to be useful to you? If it's a lot, then go for it, but maybe it's not a lot.
Fifty percent of what you learn in a BA program is rigorous thinking, how how to solve problems, how to think like an adult. You learn this (hopefully) no matter what your major. I think of this as citizenship training. The other 50 percent is subject matter in a particular field. The curriculum is designed to reflect the breadth of the field so your are "prepared for anything" at least to some degree. I think of this as a credential.
Depending on any potential employer, you may need the CS credential, but frankly you have aged into a bracket where the quality and quantity of education you have is way less important than your work history. What you have learned working dwarfs what anyone learns in school. Did you work for good employers? Were you successful? Did you show up every day? Are you mature enough that you won't accept a job offer if you can't do the work?
When my son was a CS undergraduate, he had a big project writing microcode for processor. Would that be applicable to your situation? Do you need to get down and dirty with floating point hexadecimal arithmetic?
posted by SemiSalt at 9:10 AM on April 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Fifty percent of what you learn in a BA program is rigorous thinking, how how to solve problems, how to think like an adult. You learn this (hopefully) no matter what your major. I think of this as citizenship training. The other 50 percent is subject matter in a particular field. The curriculum is designed to reflect the breadth of the field so your are "prepared for anything" at least to some degree. I think of this as a credential.
Depending on any potential employer, you may need the CS credential, but frankly you have aged into a bracket where the quality and quantity of education you have is way less important than your work history. What you have learned working dwarfs what anyone learns in school. Did you work for good employers? Were you successful? Did you show up every day? Are you mature enough that you won't accept a job offer if you can't do the work?
When my son was a CS undergraduate, he had a big project writing microcode for processor. Would that be applicable to your situation? Do you need to get down and dirty with floating point hexadecimal arithmetic?
posted by SemiSalt at 9:10 AM on April 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I already have a bachelor's degree so I also don't want to go for a degree that requires a bunch of gen ed
My university doesn’t have a fully online CS degree—and I will let others say if a degree in CS is right for you—but we do have a policy about students who want to get a second bachelor’s degree: if you have a bachelors degree from an accredited university, then you don’t have to do any of the Gen Ed requirements to get the second degree, you just have to complete the major requirements and, I think, take at least 24 credits at the institution. So you might not have to only look at explicitly post-bac programs (although they might meet your needs best if you can find one).
posted by leahwrenn at 10:54 AM on April 1, 2018
My university doesn’t have a fully online CS degree—and I will let others say if a degree in CS is right for you—but we do have a policy about students who want to get a second bachelor’s degree: if you have a bachelors degree from an accredited university, then you don’t have to do any of the Gen Ed requirements to get the second degree, you just have to complete the major requirements and, I think, take at least 24 credits at the institution. So you might not have to only look at explicitly post-bac programs (although they might meet your needs best if you can find one).
posted by leahwrenn at 10:54 AM on April 1, 2018
Best answer: I would say this looks like a good fit for where you are in life. Importantly this looks like an actual CS-only degree. I'm a programmer in the game industry and I've had several bad experiences with people who have CS degrees from game-focused colleges. Those degrees focus too much on game-specific stuff and not enough on fundamentals. It sounds to me like you have a strong understanding of the day-to-day work of programming already so you should make sure to pick classes that focus on what you're missing.
You should DEFINITELY focus on lower-level courses if they're offered, and pick up experience in things like C and assembly if possible. It looks like they have a pretty good set of classes there. I don't see any classes listed in Artificial Intelligence so you may want to do some open courses on that, picking up some machine learning experience would be extremely helpful today. For your electives I would definitely suggest Parallel Programming as being able to think in multiple threads is crucial these days. The second elective is less clear, usability or security are both useful, while "open source software development" sounds pretty fluffy
posted by JZig at 11:04 AM on April 1, 2018
You should DEFINITELY focus on lower-level courses if they're offered, and pick up experience in things like C and assembly if possible. It looks like they have a pretty good set of classes there. I don't see any classes listed in Artificial Intelligence so you may want to do some open courses on that, picking up some machine learning experience would be extremely helpful today. For your electives I would definitely suggest Parallel Programming as being able to think in multiple threads is crucial these days. The second elective is less clear, usability or security are both useful, while "open source software development" sounds pretty fluffy
posted by JZig at 11:04 AM on April 1, 2018
Best answer: I'm a developer/dev-manager type working in the gaming industry. I have credits on multiple AAA titles you've heard of. But I don't (usually) work on any specific title, instead I work for the game teams, effectively. There are a bunch of programming type jobs that support the development of a AAA title - a plethora of tools, web applications, online services, etc. I much prefer this, because I am slightly more sheltered from the craziness of the release schedule, and when the game ships I still have a job and dont have to do the "what game (if any) will I be working on next" dance. I've also found it's slightly less "crunchy" (in the game dev sense, not the granola-eating sense) as the work is more evenly spread throughout the year. Doesn't mean we don't have crazy times, they're just not for multiple months at a time.
You're already in the industry, so if you want to stay here, you obviously have an advantage. Regarding the degree; it's definitely not necessary. If anything, it helps you get through that first initial HR screen. If you're already in and have connections, that problem is solved. When I hire devs (and I've hired many) I basically look for two things. (1) Can you do the job? and (2) Can you do the job without being a negative drain on the team? (This is fit, essentially). I really don't give a poop about your education if you can get through the tech screen and then show and talk about all the things you've built before, how you did it, what tech you used, what you liked and didn't like about specific tech choices, what mistakes you made, what you're proud of, what you'd do differently, and what you're passionate about today.
Go look at the job descriptions for "SE I" / "SET I" or similar positions posted by the AAA game studios (these are your entry level programming positions). Then get those skills. For my company, C++ and Java will be useful in getting you in the door for most things but specific areas have other requirements. It really depends on what you want to do, because there are so many avenues you can take. A comp-sci degree might get you some of the way in learning the skills you want, but it will also get you things you don't care about. Some of the things you will be helpful (fundamentals, algorithms especially, networking, some theory) and some will be completely useless (forced breadth requirements in arts/other sciences, etc). I'd personally look elsewhere than a degree today, but I have one and it's definitely opened doors, so I'm not going to say it's a complete waste of time. But it is probably way more helpful in your 20s than in your 30s and beyond once you have real-world experience.
As well as knowledge though, you need practical experience. Build things on your own, and be able to talk about them. Be excited about development, and have that excitement show through.
Anyway, I've rambled enough, but feel free to PM if you want to discuss more.
posted by cgg at 11:09 AM on April 1, 2018
You're already in the industry, so if you want to stay here, you obviously have an advantage. Regarding the degree; it's definitely not necessary. If anything, it helps you get through that first initial HR screen. If you're already in and have connections, that problem is solved. When I hire devs (and I've hired many) I basically look for two things. (1) Can you do the job? and (2) Can you do the job without being a negative drain on the team? (This is fit, essentially). I really don't give a poop about your education if you can get through the tech screen and then show and talk about all the things you've built before, how you did it, what tech you used, what you liked and didn't like about specific tech choices, what mistakes you made, what you're proud of, what you'd do differently, and what you're passionate about today.
Go look at the job descriptions for "SE I" / "SET I" or similar positions posted by the AAA game studios (these are your entry level programming positions). Then get those skills. For my company, C++ and Java will be useful in getting you in the door for most things but specific areas have other requirements. It really depends on what you want to do, because there are so many avenues you can take. A comp-sci degree might get you some of the way in learning the skills you want, but it will also get you things you don't care about. Some of the things you will be helpful (fundamentals, algorithms especially, networking, some theory) and some will be completely useless (forced breadth requirements in arts/other sciences, etc). I'd personally look elsewhere than a degree today, but I have one and it's definitely opened doors, so I'm not going to say it's a complete waste of time. But it is probably way more helpful in your 20s than in your 30s and beyond once you have real-world experience.
As well as knowledge though, you need practical experience. Build things on your own, and be able to talk about them. Be excited about development, and have that excitement show through.
Anyway, I've rambled enough, but feel free to PM if you want to discuss more.
posted by cgg at 11:09 AM on April 1, 2018
I'm a student in this program - I'm five classes in. So far, I've really enjoyed the coursework. While I don't work in the gaming industry, I do work in a role where I could have theoretically tried to move over to a dev role without a degree. But I'm a pretty risk-adverse person, and I enjoy studying, so here I am. There are a fair number of current engineers in the program, which I think is a point in favor of the degree being helpful even to those with experience. The cost is also much less than other grad-school options I was considering, and far less than my first degree. To JZig's point - students are required to take a class in Assembly, and the Data Structures class I just finished up was in C.
You didn't ask this - but I'm on the two year track as well, and I'm finding it pretty challenging to balance full-time work and school. It's doable, but stressful. At least it's temporary!
posted by catcafe at 11:39 AM on April 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
You didn't ask this - but I'm on the two year track as well, and I'm finding it pretty challenging to balance full-time work and school. It's doable, but stressful. At least it's temporary!
posted by catcafe at 11:39 AM on April 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
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Not in the game industry, but in tech. My CS degree was 10% gold, 90% useless and cost many many thousands of dollars. I'd probably do it again starting from HS degree + minimal experience, but I wouldn't personally in your position.
posted by so fucking future at 10:48 PM on March 31, 2018 [6 favorites]