Yet another NYC vs SF question
March 26, 2018 4:28 AM Subscribe
Help me decide where to live!
I've been living abroad the past few years and want to move back to the US. I'm from NYC but have visited SF many times. I have job options with my company in both cities. There are things I like more and less about each job but for sake of simplicity, assume I like them equally and they pay equally and I can afford a lifestyle I'd be happy with in either city.
NYC: I miss it for all the reasons New Yorkers love NYC - the food, the nightlife, the theater, the energy, the diversity, the feeling I get just walking around. I like big cities and I don't find SF to be a big city in the way NYC is a big city. I've never loved SF but I think there are enough things about it I like that I could be happy living there (no cold winters!) My family is in the NYC area, and I have friends in both cities but more of them in NYC.
SF: My choir is the thing I'll miss most when I leave my current city - we sing with the city's symphony orchestra. The SF Symphony Chorus sounds very similar to my current choir (assuming I'd pass the audition!). NYC has many choirs, of course, but no non-professional ones that perform alongside a major orchestra, have such a packed schedule (25-30 concerts per year vs 3 per year in most NYC choirs), work with famous conductors, etc. Also, I'm a 40-yo straight single female and dating in NYC is not exactly known to be kind to women in their 30s+. While I've never dated in SF, I have the impression that men there are less ageist and there might be better dating opportunities for me there.
I was set on NYC for all the New Yorky reasons, plus family/friends. Generally-speaking, I like NYC more and would prefer life there. But dating is a thing, and I'll really miss my choir. But I might not even get into the SF choir anyway. Any way to see this differently? Anything I'm not thinking of? Thanks!
I've been living abroad the past few years and want to move back to the US. I'm from NYC but have visited SF many times. I have job options with my company in both cities. There are things I like more and less about each job but for sake of simplicity, assume I like them equally and they pay equally and I can afford a lifestyle I'd be happy with in either city.
NYC: I miss it for all the reasons New Yorkers love NYC - the food, the nightlife, the theater, the energy, the diversity, the feeling I get just walking around. I like big cities and I don't find SF to be a big city in the way NYC is a big city. I've never loved SF but I think there are enough things about it I like that I could be happy living there (no cold winters!) My family is in the NYC area, and I have friends in both cities but more of them in NYC.
SF: My choir is the thing I'll miss most when I leave my current city - we sing with the city's symphony orchestra. The SF Symphony Chorus sounds very similar to my current choir (assuming I'd pass the audition!). NYC has many choirs, of course, but no non-professional ones that perform alongside a major orchestra, have such a packed schedule (25-30 concerts per year vs 3 per year in most NYC choirs), work with famous conductors, etc. Also, I'm a 40-yo straight single female and dating in NYC is not exactly known to be kind to women in their 30s+. While I've never dated in SF, I have the impression that men there are less ageist and there might be better dating opportunities for me there.
I was set on NYC for all the New Yorky reasons, plus family/friends. Generally-speaking, I like NYC more and would prefer life there. But dating is a thing, and I'll really miss my choir. But I might not even get into the SF choir anyway. Any way to see this differently? Anything I'm not thinking of? Thanks!
I've lived in both places and to me the most important comparison seemed to me to be whether you are closer to a 1) City/Nature balance person or 2) a true CITY person.
That is when I lived in NYC I felt stifled and even a bit claustrophobic of not being able to get out of the city easily. It just felt like miles and miles of concrete in every direction. In contrast, SF is open to the ocean and a cycle ride across the Goldengate bridge will get you out to the headlands. Wine country is a day trip, etc. Even flying out feels easy with a short BART ride to the pleasant SFO airport instead of slow subways to La Guardia or JFK.
Likewise I knew a NYC person who hated SF. It was too small and they always complained that it lacked the number of this or that (e.g. music venues, cafes etc.) and the density that made NYC a true city, a late-night 24 hour city. For them, they felt as if by being in SF they were missing out on the excitement and energy of being in a "real" city.
I don't know which of the above you feel describes you best.
posted by vacapinta at 5:36 AM on March 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
That is when I lived in NYC I felt stifled and even a bit claustrophobic of not being able to get out of the city easily. It just felt like miles and miles of concrete in every direction. In contrast, SF is open to the ocean and a cycle ride across the Goldengate bridge will get you out to the headlands. Wine country is a day trip, etc. Even flying out feels easy with a short BART ride to the pleasant SFO airport instead of slow subways to La Guardia or JFK.
Likewise I knew a NYC person who hated SF. It was too small and they always complained that it lacked the number of this or that (e.g. music venues, cafes etc.) and the density that made NYC a true city, a late-night 24 hour city. For them, they felt as if by being in SF they were missing out on the excitement and energy of being in a "real" city.
I don't know which of the above you feel describes you best.
posted by vacapinta at 5:36 AM on March 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
I've lived in both cities and currently live semi-bicoastally. I've dated in both places as a 30-something woman and had no problems meeting great, attractive men in NYC who wanted serious relationships, so I personally wouldn't let assumptions about dating be a factor, though I know other people have different experiences. (I also tend to get along better with New Yorkers in general, and if that's the case for you, that would, of course, impact dating.) However, for a few reasons, I'm currently based in the Bay Area- the East Bay, not San Francisco. There are parts of Berkeley and Oakland that I love in a way that I do not love San Francisco, and that I love for different reasons than New York. The food in the Bay Area is great; food should not be on your pro/con list. Even the produce is a factor for me. Shopping at Berkeley Bowl, a grocery store with entire aisles of orange varieties, etc, all impossibly fresh and perfect by NYC standards, is one of my weekly pleasures (as long as I go at non-peak hours). Walking around tree-lined streets filled with charming Craftsman houses, huge gardens, and friendly cats on the sidewalk, makes me happy. Biking in my neighborhood is safe and low-stress. It's easy to walk to restaurants, the subway, bookstores, a park, a small theater, and other things, but it is a much more suburban feeling place than my former neighborhood in Brooklyn. I like the cherry blossoms and (temporarily) warm weather in February, and the lack of blizzards and hurricanes and humid 90-degree summer days. So, I'm pretty happy here, despite the insane rent prices. My list of what I like may be fairly different from yours, though.
posted by pinochiette at 7:42 AM on March 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by pinochiette at 7:42 AM on March 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
I lived in nyc for ten years and now have been in Oakland for five. I have a throbbing distaste for the Bay Area but will confirm something you said: it’s hard to get involved in music stuff in New York if you’re not a professional, I suppose because it’s so flooded with people who are trying to make it to the top level.
(The thing about nature is also true; it just doesn’t do much for me and does seem to go with my sense of SF as not feeling like a real city despite its size. When I was about to move here, I asked people what were the things that would compensate for all the cultural stuff I was leaving behind and the answer always took the form of “there are SO MANY great hikes that are just like two hours away by car!”)
Also agreeing about the rents and property prices. It’s worse here. We feel like we got the last good deal in Oakland and could never have afforded SF, and I’m paying more than I ever have in my life.
Oh and for me I’d say one big issue is that BART isn’t public transit so much as a commuter train, but that’s an east bay issue.
posted by Smearcase at 7:49 AM on March 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
(The thing about nature is also true; it just doesn’t do much for me and does seem to go with my sense of SF as not feeling like a real city despite its size. When I was about to move here, I asked people what were the things that would compensate for all the cultural stuff I was leaving behind and the answer always took the form of “there are SO MANY great hikes that are just like two hours away by car!”)
Also agreeing about the rents and property prices. It’s worse here. We feel like we got the last good deal in Oakland and could never have afforded SF, and I’m paying more than I ever have in my life.
Oh and for me I’d say one big issue is that BART isn’t public transit so much as a commuter train, but that’s an east bay issue.
posted by Smearcase at 7:49 AM on March 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oh but pinochiette is totally right. The food here is great, and the diff from NYC is that there’s lots of great non-fancy, non-$$$ food.
posted by Smearcase at 7:52 AM on March 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Smearcase at 7:52 AM on March 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
the diff from NYC is that there’s lots of great non-fancy, non-$$$ food.
I'd say the difference from Manhattan (and, to some extent, Brooklyn). Lots of great inexpensive food in the outer boroughs. Of course, you have to be willing to live nearby or make the schlep out.
I don't have personal experience on SF dating (NYC dating is always challenging), but I've never actually heard that men in SF are any better for dating for older women. Weird "conventional wisdom" of this kind strikes me as a flimsy basis for choosing a place to live. But the choir situation is real. Is it the thing you'd miss most, or a thing you'd miss a lot? That is, it can be the best thing about your current city without being hugely important to you. Or it could be. If I was used to spending several nights a week doing a hobby and derived a lot of my social life from it, I'd find dropping that a big loss.
posted by praemunire at 8:51 AM on March 26, 2018
I'd say the difference from Manhattan (and, to some extent, Brooklyn). Lots of great inexpensive food in the outer boroughs. Of course, you have to be willing to live nearby or make the schlep out.
I don't have personal experience on SF dating (NYC dating is always challenging), but I've never actually heard that men in SF are any better for dating for older women. Weird "conventional wisdom" of this kind strikes me as a flimsy basis for choosing a place to live. But the choir situation is real. Is it the thing you'd miss most, or a thing you'd miss a lot? That is, it can be the best thing about your current city without being hugely important to you. Or it could be. If I was used to spending several nights a week doing a hobby and derived a lot of my social life from it, I'd find dropping that a big loss.
posted by praemunire at 8:51 AM on March 26, 2018
I've grew up in and around NYC, moved to Tokyo for a few years, and have been living in the East Bay and working in SF/Oakland for the last 7 years.
What I love about the West Coast is definitely the nature, the weather, and some of the social aspects. Also road trips are more fun here. And poker is legal. And so is weed. Don't particularly like tech-bro culture, but I hated the yuppies in their heyday as well. It's not hard to work around, though.
What I miss from NYC is the energy, staying out all night and not having to wait on line for breakfast. Having places to dress up for. 24 hour subways. A park surrounded by skyscrapers. Being alone in a crowd seemed easier, too. I like walking, and that's more interesting in NY, I find. Also, I think it was easier making friends in NY, you see a lot of the same people often enough that you get to know them (at least for a barfly like my former self.)
posted by bashos_frog at 4:25 PM on March 26, 2018
What I love about the West Coast is definitely the nature, the weather, and some of the social aspects. Also road trips are more fun here. And poker is legal. And so is weed. Don't particularly like tech-bro culture, but I hated the yuppies in their heyday as well. It's not hard to work around, though.
What I miss from NYC is the energy, staying out all night and not having to wait on line for breakfast. Having places to dress up for. 24 hour subways. A park surrounded by skyscrapers. Being alone in a crowd seemed easier, too. I like walking, and that's more interesting in NY, I find. Also, I think it was easier making friends in NY, you see a lot of the same people often enough that you get to know them (at least for a barfly like my former self.)
posted by bashos_frog at 4:25 PM on March 26, 2018
I went to Berkeley and sort of figured I would move back to the Bay Area after grad school. It didn't happen and I eventually ended up in NYC. At this point, I'm not interested in a move to California and it's basically because it feels like the Bay Area is eating itself alive (or the tech industry is). Rent control* is the only thing keeping my non-tech industry friends in their apartments in unfashionable parts of Oakland. When I go to California for work, people's getting-to-know-you small talk is about rent, how they can never afford to buy a house and how awful their commutes are, and these are tech people. It all seems deeply unappealing.
Of course, if you arrange to meet people on the weekend in NYC, someone will inevitably be late and then you'll have to have a conversation about how the trains are messed up. But that's not the same kind of stress the money stress is.
*Bay Area rent control is akin to NYC rent stabilization. Sort of. Not really.
posted by hoyland at 4:49 PM on March 26, 2018
Of course, if you arrange to meet people on the weekend in NYC, someone will inevitably be late and then you'll have to have a conversation about how the trains are messed up. But that's not the same kind of stress the money stress is.
*Bay Area rent control is akin to NYC rent stabilization. Sort of. Not really.
posted by hoyland at 4:49 PM on March 26, 2018
When I read your pros/cons list, it basically sounds like,
SF: the choir ,and maybe dating?
NYC: everything else!
So, how important is that choir, and how much more will you like it in SF?
posted by d. z. wang at 5:02 PM on March 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
SF: the choir ,and maybe dating?
NYC: everything else!
So, how important is that choir, and how much more will you like it in SF?
posted by d. z. wang at 5:02 PM on March 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I’m from the Bay Area, and I live in NYC now. I visited San Francisco in December for the first time since moving to New York, to see a friend who had just bought a house. They’re really very similar - the main difference is the subway is better in New York and it’s much busier and there’s more to do culturally, but the ocean and the woods are much closer to San Francisco. And it’s not humid or snowy.
But dating in NYC is not bad at all (I’m 36 F). I met several men from okcupid and tinder who wanted to settle down and be serious within a few weeks, and I’m currently dating someone who I want to settle down with, and he feels the same. I was afraid, from the horror stories, but really, it’s fine. No worse or better than other cities, I don’t think. My friend lives in San Francisco and we swap stories, and the main difference seems to be tech money versus finance money.
posted by umwhat at 6:30 PM on March 26, 2018
But dating in NYC is not bad at all (I’m 36 F). I met several men from okcupid and tinder who wanted to settle down and be serious within a few weeks, and I’m currently dating someone who I want to settle down with, and he feels the same. I was afraid, from the horror stories, but really, it’s fine. No worse or better than other cities, I don’t think. My friend lives in San Francisco and we swap stories, and the main difference seems to be tech money versus finance money.
posted by umwhat at 6:30 PM on March 26, 2018
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