Sexual Discrimination... from "subordinates"? Best way to deal with it?
March 25, 2018 1:50 PM Subscribe
So the women at my work are in a bit of a bind.
We're experiencing what we believe is sexual discrimination, but the only reason we can say that is because the women are treated differently from the men, and tasks are prioritized differently. That's one problem - it's not blatant, just a pattern - which is obvious to anyone who knows about sexual discrimination, but harder to understand for people who don't take it as seriously as they should.
The second problem is that it's technically a "subordinate" - although we are not their supervisor, they are supposed to be taking requests from us. And most sexual discrimination laws seems to be discrimination from "employer/potential employer".
The person has been reported to their supervisor (which is our supervisor), with no results. That is potentially the only avenue that I can think of to take it to HR - that the supervisor has been informed of sexual discrimination/bias and has refused to take action.
Thoughts? Advice? I have begun requesting documentation from the supervisor as to what they've done - actual specific steps and it's all very vague.
The details are a little hairy, but here's a simplistic analogy. At 9am Mary asks the secretary Darlene to make 40 copies. At 10am she asks if it's done and Darlene says she hasn't gotten a chance; while they're talking John comes in and asks Darlene for 60 copies. At 11am, Mary notices John's 60 copies are in his mailbox. She asks Darlene about her copies and Darlene says she's been too busy, but will have them soon.
Joann and David are doing similar projects, and envelopes with addressees from mailing lists need to be created. Each sends a request for this to Darlene on the same day. There are the same number of individuals on both lists, but Darlene finishes David's list a full week ahead of Joann's.
Carla and Ethan are both hosting meetings. Carla requests Darlene be present at her 11:30am meeting to take minutes, but Darlene declines citing a work conflict. The conflict turns out to be Darlene getting bagels and coffee for Ethan's 1:00pm meeting (which Ethan did not ask for, and which Carla was not offered for her meeting). Darlene is also present to take minutes for Ethan's meetings.
This goes even further than the women not getting adequate support - Darlene actually reports Mary for "harassment" because Mary asked about the copies repeatedly, and Mary is reprimanded. Joann is reprimanded by her boss for getting the mailings out late (David is used as the comparison). Carla's meeting was deemed less professional than Ethan's, in part because the minutes, having been created by Carla, the leader and a participant in the meeting, are not as thorough as Ethan's (which were created by Darlene, whose sole role was to take minutes).
Darlene has been reported to the supervisor, and the supervisor has reportedly "spoken" to her, but it's continuing. When reported again, Darlene's supervisor says he really doesn't get it - John, David, and Ethan have nothing but praise for Darlene, maybe the women in the group need to settle down or be nicer, or be more specific when asking Darlene to do something - they are probably confusing Darlene (despite requesting the exact same, simple items as their male colleagues).
This also might be good advice if two of the men didn't a habit of literally screaming and throwing things when things aren't perfect - it's not because the men are "nicer".
So the idea the women have is Darlene works harder for the men, possibly in part because she knows the consequences of not doing something right for them are swift and severe, while the consequences of doing something wrong for the women are non-existant - the women will not scream at her, and even a cross word at Darlene will be reported to the supervisor and seen as "harassment" of Darlene. So because of the supervisor's attitude and actions, there's really zero incentive for her to do the work equally.
So any thoughts on how to handle this? Am I right in thinking this needs to be kicked up to a Supervisor allowing discrimination to occur?
The details are a little hairy, but here's a simplistic analogy. At 9am Mary asks the secretary Darlene to make 40 copies. At 10am she asks if it's done and Darlene says she hasn't gotten a chance; while they're talking John comes in and asks Darlene for 60 copies. At 11am, Mary notices John's 60 copies are in his mailbox. She asks Darlene about her copies and Darlene says she's been too busy, but will have them soon.
Joann and David are doing similar projects, and envelopes with addressees from mailing lists need to be created. Each sends a request for this to Darlene on the same day. There are the same number of individuals on both lists, but Darlene finishes David's list a full week ahead of Joann's.
Carla and Ethan are both hosting meetings. Carla requests Darlene be present at her 11:30am meeting to take minutes, but Darlene declines citing a work conflict. The conflict turns out to be Darlene getting bagels and coffee for Ethan's 1:00pm meeting (which Ethan did not ask for, and which Carla was not offered for her meeting). Darlene is also present to take minutes for Ethan's meetings.
This goes even further than the women not getting adequate support - Darlene actually reports Mary for "harassment" because Mary asked about the copies repeatedly, and Mary is reprimanded. Joann is reprimanded by her boss for getting the mailings out late (David is used as the comparison). Carla's meeting was deemed less professional than Ethan's, in part because the minutes, having been created by Carla, the leader and a participant in the meeting, are not as thorough as Ethan's (which were created by Darlene, whose sole role was to take minutes).
Darlene has been reported to the supervisor, and the supervisor has reportedly "spoken" to her, but it's continuing. When reported again, Darlene's supervisor says he really doesn't get it - John, David, and Ethan have nothing but praise for Darlene, maybe the women in the group need to settle down or be nicer, or be more specific when asking Darlene to do something - they are probably confusing Darlene (despite requesting the exact same, simple items as their male colleagues).
This also might be good advice if two of the men didn't a habit of literally screaming and throwing things when things aren't perfect - it's not because the men are "nicer".
So the idea the women have is Darlene works harder for the men, possibly in part because she knows the consequences of not doing something right for them are swift and severe, while the consequences of doing something wrong for the women are non-existant - the women will not scream at her, and even a cross word at Darlene will be reported to the supervisor and seen as "harassment" of Darlene. So because of the supervisor's attitude and actions, there's really zero incentive for her to do the work equally.
So any thoughts on how to handle this? Am I right in thinking this needs to be kicked up to a Supervisor allowing discrimination to occur?
Best answer: Seems to me the actionable problem is that the women are not getting the same support and resources with which to accomplish their jobs. That is straight-up discrimination, as it would be if men were given computers and women were given an abacus. It is a hostile, discriminatory work environment, when you don't get the resources you need based on your gender. The expectation to 'play nice' is extremely gendered as well.
The supervisor's job is to provide the resources equally. Your complaint should be to HR, about the supervisor, so that you don't sue the employer for the discriminatory environment.
posted by Dashy at 2:29 PM on March 25, 2018 [17 favorites]
The supervisor's job is to provide the resources equally. Your complaint should be to HR, about the supervisor, so that you don't sue the employer for the discriminatory environment.
posted by Dashy at 2:29 PM on March 25, 2018 [17 favorites]
This also might be good advice if two of the men didn't a habit of literally screaming and throwing things when things aren't perfect - it's not because the men are "nicer".
So the idea the women have is Darlene works harder for the men, possibly in part because she knows the consequences of not doing something right for them are swift and severe,
wow wow wow this is not a Darlene problem, this is not sexual discrimination from a subordinate. this is a John/Ethan/etc. problem. a hostile workplace targeting both her and you.
even a cross word at Darlene will be reported to the supervisor and seen as "harassment" of Darlene.
"seen as" by the supervisor? if true, that too is not her fault. please do not blame this woman for knowing the exact same thing you know: that complaints about male misbehavior get no results. If you're above Darlene and couldn't get these guys to suffer consequences for screaming and throwing things, how could she? the people to make formal complaints about are the men who are making both her job and yours a living hell. it's completely unrealistic to ask her stop playing favorites when that means volunteering for abuse.
Even if there are other men around who don't scream and throw things, if they are aware of the situation and don't intercede to stop it -- which would be easy to do, if Darlene likes them and takes their orders -- they are complicit and to blame. more than she ever could be, no matter how sexist or passive-aggressive she is, if she is. without their active cooperation this situation could not continue. the problem and the people to report are the male peers at the center of it, causing it. and yes, the supervisor is at fault for allowing or encouraging the whole situation.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:49 PM on March 25, 2018 [29 favorites]
So the idea the women have is Darlene works harder for the men, possibly in part because she knows the consequences of not doing something right for them are swift and severe,
wow wow wow this is not a Darlene problem, this is not sexual discrimination from a subordinate. this is a John/Ethan/etc. problem. a hostile workplace targeting both her and you.
even a cross word at Darlene will be reported to the supervisor and seen as "harassment" of Darlene.
"seen as" by the supervisor? if true, that too is not her fault. please do not blame this woman for knowing the exact same thing you know: that complaints about male misbehavior get no results. If you're above Darlene and couldn't get these guys to suffer consequences for screaming and throwing things, how could she? the people to make formal complaints about are the men who are making both her job and yours a living hell. it's completely unrealistic to ask her stop playing favorites when that means volunteering for abuse.
Even if there are other men around who don't scream and throw things, if they are aware of the situation and don't intercede to stop it -- which would be easy to do, if Darlene likes them and takes their orders -- they are complicit and to blame. more than she ever could be, no matter how sexist or passive-aggressive she is, if she is. without their active cooperation this situation could not continue. the problem and the people to report are the male peers at the center of it, causing it. and yes, the supervisor is at fault for allowing or encouraging the whole situation.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:49 PM on March 25, 2018 [29 favorites]
One thing that will help your documentation is to get Darlene to commit to a deadline, or to give her one, and to confirm it in writing. ("Darlene, as we discussed this morning, you're going to have my 40 copies done by 3"). Blown deadlines can then be run up the ladder.
But I agree that the issue doesn't sound so much like gender discrimination for the sake of sexism, it sounds more like the senior men in the office have been allowed to behave appallingly and Darlene has developed some coping techniques.
posted by The Elusive Architeuthis at 3:01 PM on March 25, 2018 [15 favorites]
But I agree that the issue doesn't sound so much like gender discrimination for the sake of sexism, it sounds more like the senior men in the office have been allowed to behave appallingly and Darlene has developed some coping techniques.
posted by The Elusive Architeuthis at 3:01 PM on March 25, 2018 [15 favorites]
Also: the “employee problem” I mentioned in my comment? The employee problem isn’t with Darlene. It’s with the men who are allowed by your/their supervisor to scream and throw things to get their way. If anything, Darlene is also suffering from a similar problem to you—her supervisor is sitting idly by while the men scream and throw things and run roughshod over the women in the office.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 3:11 PM on March 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 3:11 PM on March 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
If Darlene is reporting women for harassment for repeatedly asking her to finish things and is not reporting men for screaming and throwing things, she is part of the problem.
posted by FencingGal at 3:25 PM on March 25, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by FencingGal at 3:25 PM on March 25, 2018 [30 favorites]
It does sound to me like the bigger problem is that you have a couple of dangerous, tantrum-throwing manbabies on staff. Yelling and throwing things? That is so not OK. Those guys should have been fired like, yesterday.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:01 PM on March 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:01 PM on March 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the responses, all, but I do have some additional points.
The men I mention scream and yell at everyone, not just Darlene - I know for a fact one has been reported by IT. Darlene has not only chosen not to report them, but 1) chooses to report the women in the office for less threatening behavior (so it's not like she just wants to lay low overall) and 2) speaks in glowing terms about these men and volunteers to do extra work for them (e.g. Ethan and his bagels). This is part of the reason why the supervisor thinks the women are to blame - because Darlene, in meetings with only the women present, says the men in the Department are so much "easier to please" than the women. The women in the office initially tried to reach out and support her, and went to the supervisor on behalf of Darlene, but Darlene told the supervisor she didn't know what we were talking about, and she has no problem with the men.
The women in the office also, overall, have more technically superiority than the men, so it's not an issue of "not pissing off the president on behalf of the vice-president".
We did try timelines, but those got axed by the supervisor - the supervisor has explicitly told us that we cannot impose a deadline on her, because she says she's so busy, she should be free to prioritize tasks as she sees fit. When we said her prioritization meant our work was being done late, or not at all, we were told that maybe we should do the work ourselves (although our male colleagues are getting done for them, no compromises). Darlene is free to do the assignments when/if she wants to.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 4:05 PM on March 25, 2018
The men I mention scream and yell at everyone, not just Darlene - I know for a fact one has been reported by IT. Darlene has not only chosen not to report them, but 1) chooses to report the women in the office for less threatening behavior (so it's not like she just wants to lay low overall) and 2) speaks in glowing terms about these men and volunteers to do extra work for them (e.g. Ethan and his bagels). This is part of the reason why the supervisor thinks the women are to blame - because Darlene, in meetings with only the women present, says the men in the Department are so much "easier to please" than the women. The women in the office initially tried to reach out and support her, and went to the supervisor on behalf of Darlene, but Darlene told the supervisor she didn't know what we were talking about, and she has no problem with the men.
The women in the office also, overall, have more technically superiority than the men, so it's not an issue of "not pissing off the president on behalf of the vice-president".
We did try timelines, but those got axed by the supervisor - the supervisor has explicitly told us that we cannot impose a deadline on her, because she says she's so busy, she should be free to prioritize tasks as she sees fit. When we said her prioritization meant our work was being done late, or not at all, we were told that maybe we should do the work ourselves (although our male colleagues are getting done for them, no compromises). Darlene is free to do the assignments when/if she wants to.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 4:05 PM on March 25, 2018
You said this isn’t blatant, but it is, especially if Darlene is literally referring to the groups as the men and the women. Yes, you need to kick this up to the next level, whether that is your supervisor’s boss or HR. If support staff refuses to support you or supports you inadequately on the basis of gender, that is discrimination. Resist any impulse to act like this is no big deal. It is a huge deal.
posted by FencingGal at 4:21 PM on March 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by FencingGal at 4:21 PM on March 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
If Darlene is so busy that she can’t get everything done, then she either needs to be reprimanded for inefficiency or another support staff person needs to be hired. If neither one can happen, then you need to continue to document things you ask her to do in writing and she fails to do until she gets fired, or you need to look for a new position because your company culture is broken in more ways than one. I think you are e correct that this is sexual discrimination, but you will have an impossible time getting any results based on that tack because it’s very sneaky and non traditional.
posted by permiechickie at 4:22 PM on March 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by permiechickie at 4:22 PM on March 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
two separate problems are happening here.
1. sexual discrimination, in that the men's misbehavior is being tolerated by the higher-ups while the women are being disciplined for far less offensive behavior (Mary got written up for asking Darlene to do her job? That is straight up BS!);
2. an overworked or, more likely, insubordinate secretary, who doesn't want to work for women.
For purposes of legal compliance generally the subordinate can't be the harasser; but tolerance of her behavior on the part of the higher ups can be considered a hostile work environment. Additionally, the tolerance of the men's misbehavior, and the systematically inadequate support for the women's admin needs, looks like discrimination on the part of the higher-ups.
Document that shit, keeping in mind the specific categories, and take it up the chain.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:34 PM on March 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
1. sexual discrimination, in that the men's misbehavior is being tolerated by the higher-ups while the women are being disciplined for far less offensive behavior (Mary got written up for asking Darlene to do her job? That is straight up BS!);
2. an overworked or, more likely, insubordinate secretary, who doesn't want to work for women.
For purposes of legal compliance generally the subordinate can't be the harasser; but tolerance of her behavior on the part of the higher ups can be considered a hostile work environment. Additionally, the tolerance of the men's misbehavior, and the systematically inadequate support for the women's admin needs, looks like discrimination on the part of the higher-ups.
Document that shit, keeping in mind the specific categories, and take it up the chain.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:34 PM on March 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all for your words and advice. Part of it is the women are all kind of just wondering if it's discrimination, because it feels like it, but we weren't sure if it would be clear to others. The fact that you all recognize this is very helpful - I will be making an appointment with HR on Monday.
Tbh I have been thinking about going to HR about the supervisor himself. This just confirms I should, and should be included in the list of items against him.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 4:35 PM on March 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
Tbh I have been thinking about going to HR about the supervisor himself. This just confirms I should, and should be included in the list of items against him.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 4:35 PM on March 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
Just reading this made me want to scream and throw things. You are not overreacting.
posted by Cheese Monster at 4:49 PM on March 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Cheese Monster at 4:49 PM on March 25, 2018 [7 favorites]
She's sandbagging the women and slowing them down, which makes them look bad, and the men appear to reward her for this.
posted by rhizome at 5:02 PM on March 25, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 5:02 PM on March 25, 2018 [14 favorites]
Also consider calling a couplefew lawyers out of the yellow pages that advertise a free consult and tell them this story. They should be pretty obviously into it or not, and you can gauge the severity on that, a reality check, and make some decisions about how best to proceed. You don't have to sign up with any of them.
posted by rhizome at 5:10 PM on March 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 5:10 PM on March 25, 2018 [5 favorites]
It is most definitely discrimination, not even subtle, and her supervisor is abetting this poor behavior. I am not a lawyer, or your lawyer, but this would appear to be a textbook situation of creating of a hostile work environment based on your gender.
If it were me, I would create a log of absolutely everything related to this, including all conversations with your supervisor. Include the dates and times of the specific requests, the outcomes, and the consequences (i.e. reprimands). Also include every screaming match you've seen, as well as any conversations that you or the other women have had with Darlene, which has resulted in complaints of harassment - and then, as rhizome suggests, talk with a lawyer. I'd probably take this step before I go see HR, honestly, so I'd know where I stood.
Hopefully, HR is bright enough to see the writing on the wall, because the company could be facing a very serious lawsuit.
posted by dancing_angel at 8:15 PM on March 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
If it were me, I would create a log of absolutely everything related to this, including all conversations with your supervisor. Include the dates and times of the specific requests, the outcomes, and the consequences (i.e. reprimands). Also include every screaming match you've seen, as well as any conversations that you or the other women have had with Darlene, which has resulted in complaints of harassment - and then, as rhizome suggests, talk with a lawyer. I'd probably take this step before I go see HR, honestly, so I'd know where I stood.
Hopefully, HR is bright enough to see the writing on the wall, because the company could be facing a very serious lawsuit.
posted by dancing_angel at 8:15 PM on March 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Darlene sounds like she sucks at her job.
Maybe Darlene has some very sexist, retrograde views of gender roles. Maybe Darlene is the sort of woman who can't get along with other women. Maybe she is just terrible at her job. In any event, I feel like the only solution is to insist on a specific procedure for prioritizing stuff.
Maybe Darlene should have a public calendar of meetings that is accessible to everyone and people can book her for meetings. That way she can't flake out if the the guys ask her to do something. At my last job, the conference room had its own Google calendar that showed which meetings were set and that's how people reserved it. When it comes to copies, maybe there needs to be a sign-up sheet and she has to do them in order or there's a reasonable deadline assigned with each request.
So, you're asking what you can do. I personally would be cautious about trying to assign a reason for Darlene's general suckiness. If you go in there saying she hates women, that's a very hard thing to prove and doesn't give them a lot to work with. I personally would point to the facts: frequently work isn't being prioritized in the correct manner, there is a pattern that suggests she prefers doing her job for only certain people and it is causing a lot of unnecessary conflict. Then, I would propose the solution, which is a clear, transparent procedure for her workflow, like what I described. That way, it's not left up to her judgement or preferences anymore, and there is a record of what she is supposed to be doing and when. But that's not what you say. You say this is a good idea because it will cut down on miscommunications and ensure everything is prioritized in an equitable way. If it's implemented and she continues to prefer the men, it will be hard for her to argue against and then you can pursue the case that she is favoring the men.
posted by AppleTurnover at 9:16 PM on March 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
Maybe Darlene has some very sexist, retrograde views of gender roles. Maybe Darlene is the sort of woman who can't get along with other women. Maybe she is just terrible at her job. In any event, I feel like the only solution is to insist on a specific procedure for prioritizing stuff.
Maybe Darlene should have a public calendar of meetings that is accessible to everyone and people can book her for meetings. That way she can't flake out if the the guys ask her to do something. At my last job, the conference room had its own Google calendar that showed which meetings were set and that's how people reserved it. When it comes to copies, maybe there needs to be a sign-up sheet and she has to do them in order or there's a reasonable deadline assigned with each request.
So, you're asking what you can do. I personally would be cautious about trying to assign a reason for Darlene's general suckiness. If you go in there saying she hates women, that's a very hard thing to prove and doesn't give them a lot to work with. I personally would point to the facts: frequently work isn't being prioritized in the correct manner, there is a pattern that suggests she prefers doing her job for only certain people and it is causing a lot of unnecessary conflict. Then, I would propose the solution, which is a clear, transparent procedure for her workflow, like what I described. That way, it's not left up to her judgement or preferences anymore, and there is a record of what she is supposed to be doing and when. But that's not what you say. You say this is a good idea because it will cut down on miscommunications and ensure everything is prioritized in an equitable way. If it's implemented and she continues to prefer the men, it will be hard for her to argue against and then you can pursue the case that she is favoring the men.
posted by AppleTurnover at 9:16 PM on March 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
Darlene sounds like she sucks at her job.
Au contraire, Darlene sounds like she's a whiz at her job. Her job as currently configured sucks and it needs to change out from under her so that she either changes with it or GsTFO. That means current management would also have to change, but it has proved resistant to change. Will HR cooperate? Can the underserved group fnd a way to force the requisite change? What's going to happen?!? Please update!
posted by Don Pepino at 8:36 AM on March 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Au contraire, Darlene sounds like she's a whiz at her job. Her job as currently configured sucks and it needs to change out from under her so that she either changes with it or GsTFO. That means current management would also have to change, but it has proved resistant to change. Will HR cooperate? Can the underserved group fnd a way to force the requisite change? What's going to happen?!? Please update!
posted by Don Pepino at 8:36 AM on March 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
One possible outcome, based on the history of what I've heard about this kind of dynamic, is that Darlene is blamed for everything and gets fired (of course) for Doing The Actions, and the men stay the same. Then they'll hire another Darlene who is unfamiliar with the office politics there, which may or may not eventually result in a recurrence of the problems.
posted by rhizome at 10:13 AM on March 26, 2018
posted by rhizome at 10:13 AM on March 26, 2018
It sounds like Darlene has been given too much work to do and your office needs to hire a second person. Otherwise there will always be some people getting inadequate secretarial support.
Yeah, Darlene is probably being sexist in how she chooses whose work to do and whose work to let slide, but she wouldn't be in a position to make those decisions if she had enough time to complete all the work.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:38 AM on March 27, 2018
Yeah, Darlene is probably being sexist in how she chooses whose work to do and whose work to let slide, but she wouldn't be in a position to make those decisions if she had enough time to complete all the work.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:38 AM on March 27, 2018
« Older Video response to Aziz Ansari Allegation | Movies and books about grumpy, cranky, broken men... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
First, I hope you are continuing to document all of what you've told us.
Second, you have correctly identified that the real problem now is Darlene's/your supervisor for not doing anything about the issues you reported. An employee problem that remains unaddressed after being brought to management's attention is then a problem with management.
I think the only people who can do anything about this are Darlene's supervisor's supervisor, or HR. Unfortunately, can doesn't always equal will. But it's worth a try.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 2:11 PM on March 25, 2018 [6 favorites]