Dealing with NYC manspreaders

March 6, 2018 7:18 AM

I'm a young smallish woman that takes the subway every day. I've encountered my fair share of manspreaders, who really make me uncomfortable. I understand that personal space is at a minimum on the train, but I don't like when guys take up my space with their legs splayed out. What should I do to confront these guys? I don't want to spread my legs out because it bothers me so much for some guy's leg to be touching mine. It feels very sexual-harrass-y.

I've tried giving them dirty looks to get my point across but they don't usually notice. I've tried saying excuse me but most of the time I get an attitude and/or them saying there's not a lot of room. Obviously I won't confront someone who looks super threatening, but a lot of guys fall under potentially dangerous stranger.

posted by starlybri to Human Relations (38 answers total)

"Pardon."
[still doesn't move]
"I said excuse me."
[still doesn't move]
"IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR TESTICLES? SIR DO YOU HAVE A MEDICAL CONDITION? ARE YOU OKAY"
posted by phunniemee at 7:23 AM on March 6, 2018 [43 favorites]

I don't know if this would actually work, but I loved it when Jessica James did it.
posted by emumimic at 7:33 AM on March 6, 2018 [11 favorites]

Here's your problem: There's no way to confront men about this that doesn't end up with them giving you attitude. The type of man who gets offended when you say "excuse me" will get offended no matter what you say. An uppity woman suggesting he's not entitled to be all up in her space is what's offensive to him.

If women had a good script for dealing with men like this that would avoid conflict, we'd be using it all the time.

Phunniemie's script makes me smile. It avoids navigating the man's feelings entirely, because seriously, fuck that bullshit. It's an appealing option, but it won't get you your space back without conflict.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:35 AM on March 6, 2018 [38 favorites]

The problem with the subway is that everyone is kind of unhappy to be there already so almost anything, including a reasonable request not to have one's space invaded, can feel confrontational. I think in these situations I sometimes just try to be more polite and assuming-no-ill-will about it than I feel in the interest of not ruining my own morning with an argument with a stranger. "Hey, sorry, tight on here today but it looks like we're kind of in each other's space. Would you mind moving a bit?"
posted by Smearcase at 7:38 AM on March 6, 2018 [4 favorites]

I usually say "EXCUSE ME" and then just sit in the small sliver of space left open — they usually move — but I'm a 6' dude and that may not work for you. And there was that time the manspreader just shoved me to the floor, so yeah, I guess that's not a really good solution for everybody.
posted by Ampersand692 at 7:38 AM on March 6, 2018 [1 favorite]

Unfortunately, I don't know that there are any magic words-- any words, no matter how polite, scolding, humorous, direct, or whatever, will come across as an intolerable confrontation to a certain type of man. And there is a LOT of overlap between the type of man who won't receive your words well and the type of man who spreads into your space.

That said, my friend from the Bronx looks them in the eye, looks down at their lap, looks back up and says "no." I have seen it work, and I have seen it cause the man to rage out. I dream of trying this but I'm too shy/scared to pull it off.
posted by kapers at 7:42 AM on March 6, 2018 [14 favorites]

I have exactly twice said - to no one in particular - "WOW IT MUST BE AWFUL TO HAVE SUCH GIGANTIC TESTICLES THAT YOU CAN'T SIT LIKE A NORMAL PERSON." - when sitting next to a spreader. The first time several people tittered and it worked. The second time people looked away and the person spread further. After that I kind of lost my nerve. But I still think the whole time of gross things I can yell that might work, and sometimes it makes me laugh, and that sometimes makes them move.

I usually have better luck with pressing back and looking at them. 9 times out of 10 they flinch back and allow me to reclaim my space. The 1 time out of 10 I spend the entirety of the journey engaged in some kind of knee-version of an arm wrestling contest where neither party is able to defeat the other. Unpleasant.

This behavior does indeed feel similar to public sexual harassment I've experienced.
posted by pammeke at 7:44 AM on March 6, 2018 [14 favorites]

My current preferred strategy for lots of bad bus/train behavior is to call it out loudly, but politely, so other people can hear and look over. Otherwise it’s super easy to just ignore you.

“SIR, COULD YOU PLEASE STOP TOUCHING MY LEG”

May have slightly better success once 10 people start staring at the dude.
posted by forkisbetter at 7:46 AM on March 6, 2018 [48 favorites]

I’m don’t live in a subway- having city, but this has worked for me in airplanes and other crowded places: carry something pointy- an umbrella hardback book, knitting, and “accidentally “ poke them with it- ie hold it within your personal space but as a buffer between you and them.
posted by genmonster at 7:48 AM on March 6, 2018 [24 favorites]

I don't want to spread my legs out because it bothers me so much for some guy's leg to be touching mine. It feels very sexual-harrass-y.

It feels that way to me, too. There was a subway etiquette campaign a while ago and the huge signs directly addressed manspreading, so most men are aware of the concept. Thus, 90% of the time this is a choice they're making and it's not a case of someone not realizing they're touching you. They certainly realize when they are touching a man bigger than they! This is a man-woman issue, not a crowded train issue.

This is why I'm pessimistic about finding the right words or physical acts. I've tried pressing back and it's disgusting because they'll press back more. I don't feel safe talking about an aggressive man's testicles in public for others to laugh at but it's heartening to hear that works sometimes?
posted by kapers at 7:51 AM on March 6, 2018 [8 favorites]

I usually just aggressively plop myself down and try to reclaim my space with my bags/parcels/limbs in the sort of escalating display of hostility that makes commuting in New York City such a relaxing experience.
posted by cakelite at 8:06 AM on March 6, 2018 [61 favorites]

I find it helpful to have a bag or purse I can wedge between myself and the offending leg, with a little smile and 'excuse me'. Then ignore and retreat into my own world.
posted by mefireader at 8:09 AM on March 6, 2018 [17 favorites]

Yeah, can you start carrying a large (or larger) bag with you to use as a buffer between your leg and theirs? Or tried sitting (if wearing pants) with one leg crossed horizontally across the other so instead of pushing back against them with your knee you're using the bottom of your shoe?

As others have noted, no matter what you've got to mentally be prepared for some sort of confrontation that might happen, man-spreaders are the worst.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 8:09 AM on March 6, 2018 [4 favorites]

Been riding the subway in nyc for almost 20 years. Have had about a 30% success rate with pointed staring. When that doesn’t work “excuse me” yields about a 50% success rate. When that doesn’t work I put an object (tote bag, umbrella) between me and him. Have only ever been brave enough to say “please stay in your space” in my best strict teacher voice when the spreader appears under 18 and since I’ve been over 30. In those specific cases that has worked 100% of the time.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 8:13 AM on March 6, 2018 [15 favorites]

This is why when I lived in Boston and was commuting on the T an hour and a half twice a day I swapped my backpack out for a huge "statement" bag. It was actually a giant zippered tote with convertible straps so I could carry it on my back but it was wider than me. When things were actually cramped or I was making room for polite people I could rotate it and tuck it between my legs or vertically along my torso or fold it if it wasn't full of bulky art supplies down to a reasonable size. But when near manspreaders I'd heft the thing up into my seat and have to support it with my thighs at a reasonable width and hook my elbows over it so they'd poke into the dude's space, oh, oops, gotta wrangle my bag, sorry my pointy elbow almost got you in the face because you're so fucking slouched, chicks and their bags, amirite? Also if someone was extra gross I could shove it between myself and whoever as a full on physical barrier but have my arm looped securely through the straps, kind of like a squishy riot shield. Ugh. Anyway. Statement bag.
posted by Mizu at 8:28 AM on March 6, 2018 [22 favorites]

I don't know if you are going to be able to avoid having a man's leg touch yours because personal space isn't really a thing on the subway, but when I want a seat next to a man spreader, I just move his leg aside with the back of my hand before sitting down. Like swatting a fly. I love doing it to two manspreaders at a time, like parting the velvet curtains for my stage debut. I don't make eye contact at all, because that seems to invite engagement, whether positive or negative. I also have in headphones whether I'm listening to anything or not, because I can pretend to ignore any grumbling. I just treat it like I deserve to take up the space their knees previously occupied, because I do.
posted by greta simone at 8:32 AM on March 6, 2018 [80 favorites]

I say "excuse me, you're on my side" in a stern voice, but I'm in Canada so YMMV re: effectiveness. I have had a 100% success rate.

I figure that I'm safe doing this because I am in public and I'm not averse to making a commotion and demanding help if he becomes agressive. Trust your gut whether you feel safe doing this.
posted by windykites at 8:53 AM on March 6, 2018 [4 favorites]

I don't use public transit every day, so I'm not confronted with this problem on a regular basis. Take my advice with a grain of salt. But I suspect that your options are:
- To just sit down and deal with legs-touching-legs; or
- confront the spreader directly.

If you decide to confront, then you must do so in a manner that shames them publicly. After thinking about it, I suspect it's the most likely way to get them to back down and make some space for you.

Call it what it is: manspreading. Call it publicly. "Hey, could you quit your manspreading? You're taking up more than your fair share of space." Don't be mean about it, but be firm, and be loud, so that your fellow passengers can hear. If you notice that a guy is hogging space on a crowded train, others probably have, too.

Also, "manspreading" is a bit of a funny word. People will love that you're actually using that word, and it will inject a bit of humor into the situation. Probably.
posted by cleverevans at 9:12 AM on March 6, 2018 [1 favorite]

NYC train etiquette is...tough. I spend a lot of time on the trains with my legs touching other people’s legs. Men and women both, for different reasons.

My best tip is to ask the person (or one person if I’m taking a middle) ‘May I sit?’ And the. I just st. Because nobody says no, it’s just polite to acknowledge that it’s yncomfortable to have someone wedge their body in the tiny space. Now. I make it a point, if I’m getting into a middle seat, to ask the woman or the person of color and to ignore the man or the white person when directing this question. And then I just take the space that is designated for a person. Sometimes this means proactively putting my leg up against a manspreaders leg. Sometimes it means putting my leg up against a larger persons leg. However a person gets to be into my seat, I don’t care. I’m going to take up the space that my body takes. I’m not going to fold into myself and hold my breath for 6 stops. This isn’t to punish anybody.

I think what helps me with this is that I’m able to frame this as me doing the touching/space taking. I’m also able to frame men’s behavior as obliviousness rather than malice. It still rankles, but it helps me feel a bit less hostile about it. Just a bit, but it’s something.

I don’t knit on crowded trains, but I might be found reading a book with my elbow jutting into the air rights of a manspreading neighbor. We’re found touch knees in this scenario, sometimes I can slowly ease his knee back over the line.

And for the obvious advice, don’t feel bad if you want to choose seats next to women, don’t feel bad about getting up to switch seats if a better one opens up. And also if you’re inspired to sit next to a manspreader in a crowded train in hopes of getting him to sit up and close his legs, don’t feel bad about that either.

Sometimes, it’s just easier to stand. But whatever you do, frame it as a choice that you’re making. It takes practice, but it helps. So does meditation. And audiobooks.
posted by bilabial at 9:29 AM on March 6, 2018 [4 favorites]

I also take the "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" approach. I think men who do this count on women doing the thing where they squish themselves vertically and make themselves as small as possible. So I decide I'm going to act like a man: I switch to sitting kind of sprawled out, with my arms and legs as far apart as propriety will allow. Basically, I get into their space too. I'd say seven times out of 10, the guy doesn't like it at all and puts his legs closer together. And I also agree that if that isn't your jam, don't feel shy about getting up and sitting in a different spot, even if it's literally right across from the guy.

(I'll just note two things: First, fairly recently, there was an incident on the subway where a lady asked a dude to stop manspreading and he punched her in the face, cutting her lip. Second, I once read an article on the manspreading PSAs and one guy said something like, That's ridiculous, I'll put my legs wherever I want and those signs just make me want to do it more. So people can be serious assholes and even actually assault you for this stuff.)
posted by holborne at 9:49 AM on March 6, 2018 [8 favorites]

I've scratched my leg so it bumps them off of me. If they move back after I do it again, sometimes leaving my hand there knuckles out to keep them off me. Doesn't always work. Fucking assholes. Men, don't do this.
posted by agregoli at 10:09 AM on March 6, 2018

One time recently I wound up in the arm wrestling for knees that Pammeke described and I was so mad I just sat there the whole time even when other seats opened up so I wouldn't give the guy the satisfaction of getting me to move. He was a skinny dude seriously taking up 2 seats with his junk.

Things I tried before getting to that point, which are usually effective (in order of escalation):
-Saying may I sit
-Trying to move the guy over with books, bag, etc
-Loudly telling my standing companion how much my knees were hurting (true, and quite exacerbated by the manspreader)
-Coughing ostentatiously to convince him his manly spread might get germs
-Finally just shoving him with my leg (he shoved back)
-Trying to console myself with my questionable moral superiority

(PS I was so absorbed by typing this that I went 2 train stops in the wrong direction! Oops.)
posted by ferret branca at 10:09 AM on March 6, 2018 [6 favorites]

I had to deal with this on a plane the other day - the variant of both legs and elbows. Very soon into the flight I sat up, turned to him and said I'd need him to keep his elbows and knees to himself. He looked up, dumbly, and said whaaa? I repeated it very, very loudly. I NEED YOU TO KEEP YOUR ELBOWS AND YOUR KNEES AWAY FROM ME.

Argh. Then there was the guy who spread hid stuff all over two seats .... at the only recharging stand.
posted by Dashy at 11:01 AM on March 6, 2018 [3 favorites]

I'm also a tiny woman in NYC, and I also hate manspreaders. I am a creep, though, and I don't mind touching them with my leg, so I push back really hard. It always works. They look so surprised. I have strong legs. It feels like using the hip abductor machine at the gym. One time a guy pushed back and I pushed harder and we kept up the struggle for an entire ride without ever acknowledging each other otherwise. I got off but I think I was winning. I realize someday this behavior is going to get me in trouble, but so far it has worked.

Seriously, I know it feels gross to touch a stranger, but it's almost impossible to not touch a stranger on the subway. Take charge and push back!
posted by millipede at 11:24 AM on March 6, 2018 [12 favorites]

My other recommendation is to smell bad, or to carry something that smells bad.
posted by millipede at 11:27 AM on March 6, 2018

Here's your problem: There's no way to confront men about this that doesn't end up with them giving you attitude. The type of man who gets offended when you say "excuse me" will get offended no matter what you say. An uppity woman suggesting he's not entitled to be all up in her space is what's offensive to him.

I also want to note that they give attitude to me, a man, when I confront them. Manspreaders are a nuisance to everyone.
posted by benbenson at 12:04 PM on March 6, 2018 [2 favorites]

I’m 6’3” 225 lbs and used to pick bar fights for fun. I’ve been riding the NYC subways for 40 years. I don’t talk to assholes of any variety on the subway because you never know which of them are looking for an excuse to commit mayhem, and you are trapped in a box with them far from law enforcement and medical assistance.
posted by nicwolff at 12:15 PM on March 6, 2018 [13 favorites]

I just went looking for a comment I saw in MeTa that had a brilliant tactic (offer the name of a doctor "because you're sitting the way my uncle was sitting when he was having hemmrhoid trouble").
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:28 PM on March 6, 2018 [14 favorites]

What's worked for me: the bag, the book, and "Excuse me, you're pressing on my stitches."
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:32 PM on March 6, 2018 [7 favorites]

It IS sexual harassment and I've gotten to the point where I won't take a free seat next to men on public transport unless they are divided by armrests like in London. Elsewhere I only sit in free seats on the aisle, end or next to a dividing grab bar.
posted by brujita at 1:53 PM on March 6, 2018

Scratch your leg(the one that he is touching) like you have an insatiable itch. Look at him apologetically.
"The doctor said I should stop being contagious any day now!"
posted by Jubey at 3:50 PM on March 6, 2018 [5 favorites]

This works because assholes who do things like manspreading don't give a shit about your wellbeing, but they sure as heck care about theirs, so use it against them. I her things I've also done include coughing and wheezing when people get up in my space - I was asthmatic, so it sounded genuine - and they get away from you quick smart!
posted by Jubey at 3:57 PM on March 6, 2018 [1 favorite]

Reading this it has occurred to me to fake having a cold. That seems like a decent reason for someone to give you some space. Even just fake sniffling and clearing your throat until he stops.

Not confrontational.

(Bonus points if another seat opens up and you can stop fake coughing and sniffling, so he’ll know he’s been had. But that’s probably a long shot.)
posted by crankyrogalsky at 4:22 PM on March 6, 2018 [1 favorite]

Does anybody manufacture skateboarding knee protectors with sharp little studs on the outer sides? Seems like there'd be a market there.
posted by flabdablet at 7:33 PM on March 6, 2018

I say, "Excuse me, may I?" and gesture at the space. Most of the time people move aside. I think a lot of people are more oblivious than malicious, and treating them that way lets them back off without losing face.

If I have to get into a knee wrestling contest, my trick is to scoot forward and perch on the very edge of the seat, so that they're using their knees to push against my hips. It looks non-confrontational, like I'm trying to minimize my use of the seat, but in fact it gives me a significant mechanical advantage.

I once ran into someone who knee-wrestled me so hard he slid my whole butt over along the bench. Sometimes you just can't win.
posted by d. z. wang at 8:56 PM on March 6, 2018 [1 favorite]

I tend to say "excuse me please" as a flat statement (that is, I'm just making the socially obligate gesture and I don't really give a shit if you excuse me) and plop down. Bag goes on lap with arms around it, and I silently defend my knee-space as best I can, bolstering one leg with the other if required. Then I sit and silently boil with rage the entire trip.

This may or may not be the best way to handle these interactions.
posted by sldownard at 11:41 PM on March 6, 2018 [6 favorites]

People on the subway are just generally likely to be in a bad mood, and I’ve seen enough crazy behavior on the subway that I avoid confrontation. I don’t sit where I don’t fit, and if a person who takes up more than one seat (for whatever reason, spreading their legs, carrying extra big bags, physically wider than one seat) tries to squeeze in next to me, I get up and let them have the space.
I would strongly advise against confronting people spreading their legs. 1 in 5 Americans suffers from chronic pain, often joint pain, and people already in pain are less patient, and more likely to be in a bad mood about how they’re sitting. It’s not worth my safety or the safety of people traveling with me. I’m healthy; I can stand. If you’re healthy as well, I’d suggest standing when you get crowded out by a fellow passenger.
posted by eustacescrubb at 6:48 PM on March 7, 2018

In my experience, most manspreaders are simply oblivious, and will correct themselves if I smile "Excuse me" as I move to sit down. But there's no surefire way to make a jerk stop being a jerk, so if that doesn't work, I calculate how badly I really need to sit, how threatening the guy appears, and plan my next move from there. Sometimes, standing is the best option.

However, I once casually sat on a manspreader like this lady did and friends, IT WORKED.
posted by Owlcat at 7:35 PM on March 7, 2018 [2 favorites]