What is the best cost-to-car for a long haul driver?
March 3, 2018 11:32 AM Subscribe
I put 25K miles on a car a year. What is my best option to buy or lease a car that will not end with me being underwater constantly as cars fail?
I bought a car a few years ago that seemed like a great deal - people told me the car type in question lasted for many years. Even bought the extended warranty - but I put way more miles on the car than the warranty covers, apparently. Car just had a serious failure, and I found out that the current trade in value even before the car trouble is far less than what we still owe on it.
From what I understand, most car leases have mileage penalties, so I'd wind up being hammered at the end of a lease term as well.
I do not have a lot of experience at this, which is why I made bad decisions in the first place. Please be gentle.
TL;DR What is my best option? I absolutely need a car, there are no public transit options available.
I bought a car a few years ago that seemed like a great deal - people told me the car type in question lasted for many years. Even bought the extended warranty - but I put way more miles on the car than the warranty covers, apparently. Car just had a serious failure, and I found out that the current trade in value even before the car trouble is far less than what we still owe on it.
From what I understand, most car leases have mileage penalties, so I'd wind up being hammered at the end of a lease term as well.
I do not have a lot of experience at this, which is why I made bad decisions in the first place. Please be gentle.
TL;DR What is my best option? I absolutely need a car, there are no public transit options available.
A lease is definitely off the table. You simply won't find a lease that allows 25k miles per year.
A loan is also unlikely, because as you've found, the extreme mileage lowers the value beyond what you owe.
For reference, the rule of thumb I've always heard is 10-12k per year. Any more than that and your value goes down significantly.
It sounds like your best option is to buy used outright and drive it until it dies.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:54 AM on March 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
A loan is also unlikely, because as you've found, the extreme mileage lowers the value beyond what you owe.
For reference, the rule of thumb I've always heard is 10-12k per year. Any more than that and your value goes down significantly.
It sounds like your best option is to buy used outright and drive it until it dies.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:54 AM on March 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Only because you think you made bad decisions:
You can only make a decision with the information you have at the time, and that any car is going to be a roll of the dice. A highly reliable make-and-model still means that some of them are going to have expensive problems. The best you can do is try to roll loaded dice by picking a reliable model, like you did. Lots of people make excellent decisions that go very badly for them, and every lottery winner benefits from having made a pretty terrible decision.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:12 PM on March 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
You can only make a decision with the information you have at the time, and that any car is going to be a roll of the dice. A highly reliable make-and-model still means that some of them are going to have expensive problems. The best you can do is try to roll loaded dice by picking a reliable model, like you did. Lots of people make excellent decisions that go very badly for them, and every lottery winner benefits from having made a pretty terrible decision.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:12 PM on March 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
I've always bought used cars (usually 3-5 years old), and shopped around until I found something with a lowish mileage and a solid service history. Then I maintain it scrupulously - not missing an oil change, getting any warning light checked out as soon as I see it, keeping fluids topped up, and so on. Then I run them it until it dies, as kevinbelt says. For me, that seems to be the economic sweet spot.
Anyone who tries to convince you that a brand new car ever makes economic sense is almost certainly a fool or a liar.
posted by pipeski at 12:15 PM on March 3, 2018 [17 favorites]
Anyone who tries to convince you that a brand new car ever makes economic sense is almost certainly a fool or a liar.
posted by pipeski at 12:15 PM on March 3, 2018 [17 favorites]
Also, how you drive is a major factor in how long your car will last.
posted by pipeski at 12:16 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by pipeski at 12:16 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
It sounds like your best option is to buy used outright and drive it until it dies.
This is almost certainly the cheapest option, along with selecting a car with a low cost per mile (ie, reliable, slower depreciation, good mileage, etc). According to Edmunds, the smart approach is to buy a one year old used car and own it during the flatter part of the depreciation curve, before the repair costs get high, but that sweet spot probably shifts depending on the specific model of car you are looking at.
But that's based on average driving and you are doing almost double that. So if you are getting a typical 5 year loan, you are going to spend a fair while underwater, and you are also going to be paying rising repair costs while still making loan payments. If you don't need to sell, it doesn't really matter if you are underwater or not, but the way to avoid it would be to put more money down and/or shorten the loan term.
It's also possible to just be unlucky -- even the most reliable car manufacturer is going to make a few lemons.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:18 PM on March 3, 2018
This is almost certainly the cheapest option, along with selecting a car with a low cost per mile (ie, reliable, slower depreciation, good mileage, etc). According to Edmunds, the smart approach is to buy a one year old used car and own it during the flatter part of the depreciation curve, before the repair costs get high, but that sweet spot probably shifts depending on the specific model of car you are looking at.
But that's based on average driving and you are doing almost double that. So if you are getting a typical 5 year loan, you are going to spend a fair while underwater, and you are also going to be paying rising repair costs while still making loan payments. If you don't need to sell, it doesn't really matter if you are underwater or not, but the way to avoid it would be to put more money down and/or shorten the loan term.
It's also possible to just be unlucky -- even the most reliable car manufacturer is going to make a few lemons.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:18 PM on March 3, 2018
Response by poster: So I was keeping up on maintenance, it's a blown head gasket but the guy says it was a 'freak occurrence', however, since the car is at 150K miles currently (bought at around 80K) the value of the repair would be essentially the current value of the car, and that's leaving aside the roughly 10K we still owe, and the guy is saying if it were his car he would leave it behind and just get another one because with that mileage it's probably going to have more problems soon.
And I'm kind of still in a panic and trying to figure out what I can do better to have this not happen again. We cannot regularly afford to lose 10K every few years.
In terms of car needs: it needs to be able to handle stop-and-go traffic fairly well, but also have all-wheel-drive, there's a lot of rain and accidents here. We previously had a Subaru Outback, and I loved it until this moment because we do a lot of hiking and backpacking.
posted by corb at 12:31 PM on March 3, 2018
And I'm kind of still in a panic and trying to figure out what I can do better to have this not happen again. We cannot regularly afford to lose 10K every few years.
In terms of car needs: it needs to be able to handle stop-and-go traffic fairly well, but also have all-wheel-drive, there's a lot of rain and accidents here. We previously had a Subaru Outback, and I loved it until this moment because we do a lot of hiking and backpacking.
posted by corb at 12:31 PM on March 3, 2018
Best answer: Corb, that sucks, I'm so sorry that this is working out this way.
One basic tip, and I apologize if you're already done this: Have you taken the car to another mechanic to get a second opinion?
posted by samthemander at 12:36 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
One basic tip, and I apologize if you're already done this: Have you taken the car to another mechanic to get a second opinion?
posted by samthemander at 12:36 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
I’d agree that luck sometimes sucks.
But I’d wonder what is that wrong with this car, what the car is, that you don’t get it fixed ... and how much you put down that after “a few years” 3/75k or 4/100j you are upside down on it.
Have you gotten a second opinion on what’s wrong and what it will take to fix it, as well as an overall look at the cars curent expected lasting after this repair, that is, are other things close to failing, too?
I’ve generally stuck with reliable cars from family or CarMax. I’ve gotten two new cars in a row, but have spent a not insignificant amount on repairs yearly for the 12/210k car and the 7/90k car (more on the 12 than the 7 but I don’t like how the transmission is auto shifting on the 7). The 12yr car was a Toyota Prius, the 7yr a Kia ... but the drive on the “nicer versions” of these cars are smoother and ride better for twice the price. We know the 12 could go at any time ... and we will probably end up at CarMax.
posted by tilde at 12:38 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
But I’d wonder what is that wrong with this car, what the car is, that you don’t get it fixed ... and how much you put down that after “a few years” 3/75k or 4/100j you are upside down on it.
Have you gotten a second opinion on what’s wrong and what it will take to fix it, as well as an overall look at the cars curent expected lasting after this repair, that is, are other things close to failing, too?
I’ve generally stuck with reliable cars from family or CarMax. I’ve gotten two new cars in a row, but have spent a not insignificant amount on repairs yearly for the 12/210k car and the 7/90k car (more on the 12 than the 7 but I don’t like how the transmission is auto shifting on the 7). The 12yr car was a Toyota Prius, the 7yr a Kia ... but the drive on the “nicer versions” of these cars are smoother and ride better for twice the price. We know the 12 could go at any time ... and we will probably end up at CarMax.
posted by tilde at 12:38 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Is it just the head gasket or is the engine toast?
If it's just a bad head gasket, fix it. It's a $2k fix and you'll get another 100k out of the car. And its not a freak occurrence they go out on all Subarus eventually. So definitely get a new mechanic. If he was doing your regular maintenance and not looking for this to go or suggesting you replace it around 100k he's not a very good mechanic.
Subaru are no longer reliable, never buy another one if you drive a lot! Every single one we've had in the past 20 years has lost the head gasket and that's 6 cars, all different models.
If you drive that much I'd look into cars that get used a lot for fleet vehicles and taxis.
posted by fshgrl at 12:39 PM on March 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
If it's just a bad head gasket, fix it. It's a $2k fix and you'll get another 100k out of the car. And its not a freak occurrence they go out on all Subarus eventually. So definitely get a new mechanic. If he was doing your regular maintenance and not looking for this to go or suggesting you replace it around 100k he's not a very good mechanic.
Subaru are no longer reliable, never buy another one if you drive a lot! Every single one we've had in the past 20 years has lost the head gasket and that's 6 cars, all different models.
If you drive that much I'd look into cars that get used a lot for fleet vehicles and taxis.
posted by fshgrl at 12:39 PM on March 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
Ok so a gasket. I’d talk to the dealer next and see their opinion. Not sure where you are, but this is what theses guys have to say.
posted by tilde at 12:42 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by tilde at 12:42 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Also look into a Toyota Tacoma. With maintenance you should be able to get 200-250k for sure and possibly more. I don't think you can ask for more than that in a car so I'd amoritize the purchase/ maintenance and choose accordingly. A diesel Mercedes will run forever too but what will it cost to maintain?
posted by fshgrl at 12:43 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 12:43 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Jeez that sucks. I think the only thing you’re going to want to do moving forward is a) buy the Consumer Reports Auto Guide and b) buy cheaper cars c) find a cheap-ass mechanic. When we had trash cars we had 3 of them so at any one time we could let one of them sit at Joe’s in Santa Ana for weeks at a time. Not that they were actually trash, but they were all bought used, two of them for less than $6k each, with cash, and since we had 3 cars for 2 adults we could keep the mileage low on the ‘expensive’ car.
posted by bq at 12:43 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by bq at 12:43 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Subaru and head gaskets are a known issue.
Buy a used one where they’ve already replaced the head gasket.
posted by sciencegeek at 12:46 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Buy a used one where they’ve already replaced the head gasket.
posted by sciencegeek at 12:46 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Anyone who tries to convince you that a brand new car ever makes economic sense is almost certainly a fool or a liar.
I don't think that's true, as long as you plan on driving the car until it's fully depleted, which for US models these days is pushing 200K miles. My last few cars under this strategy have would up costing me around 40 cents a mile all costs: acquisition, repairs, tires, insurance, registration and taxes.
But I would say the sweet spot, where you avoid the high early depreciation (first two years or 50k miles for you) and avoid the high late repair costs, would be to aim for a replacement every four years, buying at 50K and replacing at 150K. With a three-year loan, you won't be seriously upside down anytime, and in the fourth year the avoided loan payment will cover the potentially higher repairs, or let you save up for a downpayment. Under this strategy, I bet you can come in at about 40 cents a mile total costs, and perhaps less because of the avoided depreciation.
posted by beagle at 12:49 PM on March 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
I don't think that's true, as long as you plan on driving the car until it's fully depleted, which for US models these days is pushing 200K miles. My last few cars under this strategy have would up costing me around 40 cents a mile all costs: acquisition, repairs, tires, insurance, registration and taxes.
But I would say the sweet spot, where you avoid the high early depreciation (first two years or 50k miles for you) and avoid the high late repair costs, would be to aim for a replacement every four years, buying at 50K and replacing at 150K. With a three-year loan, you won't be seriously upside down anytime, and in the fourth year the avoided loan payment will cover the potentially higher repairs, or let you save up for a downpayment. Under this strategy, I bet you can come in at about 40 cents a mile total costs, and perhaps less because of the avoided depreciation.
posted by beagle at 12:49 PM on March 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
I think that the first thing you may have to accept is that driving 25k miles per year is going to be expensive. AAA estimates that the typical cost per mile for a small SUV is about $0.51 per mile - that means that ideally you will be budgeting $12,750 per year for fuel, maintenance, tires, insurance, and depreciation.
Notice that this does not even include the interest part of your loan payment!
posted by muddgirl at 12:51 PM on March 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
Notice that this does not even include the interest part of your loan payment!
posted by muddgirl at 12:51 PM on March 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
I think that in a scenario like this, the car's current market value isn't that important. What it will cost to fix and what its future utility will be to you is all that matters. As an anecdote-example, about 12 years ago, I bought a broken Outback with 180K miles on it. I replaced the engine and clutch (myself), and everyone told me I was crazy to put that time and money into an older, high mileage car. Now, 12 years later, the car sits at 261K miles and has provided reliable transportation over that time for an amortized price that works out to chump change. (It's pretty much at the end of its life now, but I still use it for local commuting.) ANYWAY, I would consider what kind of shape the rest of the major drivetrain components are in. Did the transmission shift normally? Was the car overheated when the headgasket failed? Badly? If so, it might make sense to go for a complete used or rebuilt engine rather than just doing headgaskets. The other "things that start failing around 150K" can be pretty minor- alternators, starter motors, stuff like that. If you commit to sticking with the car, have a good mechanic and just spend what it takes, you can keep a car going for a looong time. All this advice only applies if the car is in good structural shape (not rusty, no major accidents) and you are willing to commit- if you think you'll fold when you have a "I just spent 2000 fixing this and now a month later it needs a $300 repair, this car is killing me" scenario, maybe it's time to move on.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 12:56 PM on March 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 12:56 PM on March 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
My wife's job moved more than 50 miles from where we live. After a year or so, I did some math that appeared to pretty definitively demonstrate that a used Prius was the best option. Her estimated annual mileage to that location was 25000, as is yours.
We bought a 2004 gen 1 in 2011 for 9.5k, 10.5k after transfer taxes that included Washington state sales tax. It had 90000 miles on it at that point.
This January the car had a total of 230000 miles on it. The car retains the original battery.
Our annual mileages:
Y END - MILES - MILES TRAVELED
20xx 74000 start of ownership, 9/2011
2011 87000 13000
2012 120809 33809
2013 147375 26566
2014 167338 19963
2015 189301 21963
2016 210217 20916
2017 231454 21237
My wife decided early on that she wanted to keep the car going to the dealership, which has driven up our maintenance costs. We are strict about adhering to the 5000 mile service interval.
TOTAL COSTS PER YEAR - this includes gas and maintenance
2011 $2,644.00
2012 $5,164.34
2013 $5,268.92
2014 $6,044.05
2015 $4,363.38
2016 $2,550.70
2017 $4,515.05
TOT $19,121.31
GAS ONLY
2012 $2,981.34
2013 $2,227.92
2014 $2,383.33
2015 $1,566.40
2016 $1,187.82
2017 $1,487.63
The rolled-up month-to-month cost of running the car over the entire period of ownership comes in at $245. Removing the purchase price, the MTM cost is $114. Including the purchase price, the cost per mile is 12 cents over 157500 miles.
For comparison, our old Subaru, a '97 Forester with 178k which we've owned since 2007, costs 16 cents per mile over 93000 total miles driven.
The Prius combustion engine burns some oil, but still makes mid-forty miles per gallon. We look occasionally at getting a less elderly Prius, and resale prices on used Priii have dropped considerably since 2011. I have had various informal conversations with local cabbies about the risk consideration with respect to the original battery, which was intended by Toyota to be replaced at about 100,000 miles at a cost of 5-7k. The local pros seem to feel that the 04 batteries were dramatically overengineered and that a more realistic mileage lifespan for this generation's battery is about 300,000 miles. Obviously, ymmv.
I hope this is of assistance to you.
posted by mwhybark at 12:59 PM on March 3, 2018 [9 favorites]
We bought a 2004 gen 1 in 2011 for 9.5k, 10.5k after transfer taxes that included Washington state sales tax. It had 90000 miles on it at that point.
This January the car had a total of 230000 miles on it. The car retains the original battery.
Our annual mileages:
Y END - MILES - MILES TRAVELED
20xx 74000 start of ownership, 9/2011
2011 87000 13000
2012 120809 33809
2013 147375 26566
2014 167338 19963
2015 189301 21963
2016 210217 20916
2017 231454 21237
My wife decided early on that she wanted to keep the car going to the dealership, which has driven up our maintenance costs. We are strict about adhering to the 5000 mile service interval.
TOTAL COSTS PER YEAR - this includes gas and maintenance
2011 $2,644.00
2012 $5,164.34
2013 $5,268.92
2014 $6,044.05
2015 $4,363.38
2016 $2,550.70
2017 $4,515.05
TOT $19,121.31
GAS ONLY
2012 $2,981.34
2013 $2,227.92
2014 $2,383.33
2015 $1,566.40
2016 $1,187.82
2017 $1,487.63
The rolled-up month-to-month cost of running the car over the entire period of ownership comes in at $245. Removing the purchase price, the MTM cost is $114. Including the purchase price, the cost per mile is 12 cents over 157500 miles.
For comparison, our old Subaru, a '97 Forester with 178k which we've owned since 2007, costs 16 cents per mile over 93000 total miles driven.
The Prius combustion engine burns some oil, but still makes mid-forty miles per gallon. We look occasionally at getting a less elderly Prius, and resale prices on used Priii have dropped considerably since 2011. I have had various informal conversations with local cabbies about the risk consideration with respect to the original battery, which was intended by Toyota to be replaced at about 100,000 miles at a cost of 5-7k. The local pros seem to feel that the 04 batteries were dramatically overengineered and that a more realistic mileage lifespan for this generation's battery is about 300,000 miles. Obviously, ymmv.
I hope this is of assistance to you.
posted by mwhybark at 12:59 PM on March 3, 2018 [9 favorites]
I can tell you more about the Subaru too if you like. We've had all the major points of failure on it - head gaskets, electrical, seals, and radiator - and at this point I would expect it to run on to 250k or so, which at this rate (currently I put less than 2k a year on it) will be after I turn 70.
I missed your AWD requirement, apologies. As far as I can tell, even taking Toyota's inflated parts-and-labor cost on the Prius, the car remains the cheapest per-mile car available. I do not have numbers on Toyota hybrid AWD cars, but one assumes that they might have similar engineering qualities.
posted by mwhybark at 1:05 PM on March 3, 2018
I missed your AWD requirement, apologies. As far as I can tell, even taking Toyota's inflated parts-and-labor cost on the Prius, the car remains the cheapest per-mile car available. I do not have numbers on Toyota hybrid AWD cars, but one assumes that they might have similar engineering qualities.
posted by mwhybark at 1:05 PM on March 3, 2018
buying at 50K and replacing at 150K. With a three-year loan, you won't be seriously upside down anytime, and in the fourth year the avoided loan payment will cover the potentially higher repairs, or let you save up for a downpayment.
I’d strongly second this. We got an Escort that gave us a good six years and an Accord that gave us a good six years using this method. The ac died on the accord twice; that second time we scrapped it and bought the new Kia.
posted by tilde at 1:08 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Out of curiosity, I looked up our head gasket job. It was $2.6k in 2012.
posted by mwhybark at 1:12 PM on March 3, 2018
posted by mwhybark at 1:12 PM on March 3, 2018
At that mileage it starts to make sense to look at mini-leases from the rental companies. It costs a bit more each month than a car payment, but you only pay for gas and maybe the occasional car wash.
You can certainly do things more cheaply buying the right 2.5 year old used car and spending $900 on a factory extended warranty, but you are taking on more risk in that you will eventually be responsible for repairs (within a few years at most driving that much) and even if you aren't paying (or are only paying a $50 deductible) for them and the warranty covers a replacement rental you still have to spend two half days dealing with it.
I've been offered mini-lease deals that cost only slightly more than a subprime loan on a $17000 car does. And even if you can't get that deal, $150 a week all in is doable in most places outside of NYC. That is an even better deal than a great mini-lease bargain if your high mileage trips happen infrequently enough that you don't need a rental every single week.
posted by wierdo at 1:13 PM on March 3, 2018
You can certainly do things more cheaply buying the right 2.5 year old used car and spending $900 on a factory extended warranty, but you are taking on more risk in that you will eventually be responsible for repairs (within a few years at most driving that much) and even if you aren't paying (or are only paying a $50 deductible) for them and the warranty covers a replacement rental you still have to spend two half days dealing with it.
I've been offered mini-lease deals that cost only slightly more than a subprime loan on a $17000 car does. And even if you can't get that deal, $150 a week all in is doable in most places outside of NYC. That is an even better deal than a great mini-lease bargain if your high mileage trips happen infrequently enough that you don't need a rental every single week.
posted by wierdo at 1:13 PM on March 3, 2018
I buy 20-plus-year-old beater Volvos through my mechanic for, so far, from $2,000 to $6,000. I have AAA platinum and take the cars in whenever something exciting happens. I've gone through three of the things since 1998. But we have a Volvo mechanic in town who likes fiddling with them; this might not work if there's nobody interested in patching the things up.
posted by Don Pepino at 1:24 PM on March 3, 2018
posted by Don Pepino at 1:24 PM on March 3, 2018
So I was keeping up on maintenance, it's a blown head gasket but the guy says it was a 'freak occurrence', however, since the car is at 150K miles currently (bought at around 80K) the value of the repair would be essentially the current value of the car, and that's leaving aside the roughly 10K we still owe, and the guy is saying if it were his car he would leave it behind and just get another one because with that mileage it's probably going to have more problems soon.
Where I live, an Outback in decent shape with 150k should be worth significantly more than the cost of a head gasket repair. At the absolute minimum, you should get one or two more estimates from other mechanics to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. My guess is that the smart decision would be to repair it, but perhaps there is more wrong with the engine than just the head gasket, or maybe the car has other issues.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:40 PM on March 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
Where I live, an Outback in decent shape with 150k should be worth significantly more than the cost of a head gasket repair. At the absolute minimum, you should get one or two more estimates from other mechanics to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. My guess is that the smart decision would be to repair it, but perhaps there is more wrong with the engine than just the head gasket, or maybe the car has other issues.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:40 PM on March 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Is it a Subaru? Blown head gaskets are a thing, and so many of my friends have suffered them that I'm pretty vocal about it to anyone car shopping.
There's some kind of a class action lawsuit going, and another extended warranty, but bandaids on the real problem.
posted by Dashy at 1:42 PM on March 3, 2018
There's some kind of a class action lawsuit going, and another extended warranty, but bandaids on the real problem.
posted by Dashy at 1:42 PM on March 3, 2018
Also, it's not a freak occurrence, and it will happen again. It's the design of the engine, not the gasket itself.
posted by Dashy at 1:44 PM on March 3, 2018
posted by Dashy at 1:44 PM on March 3, 2018
Best answer: I would buy a one or two year old Toyota that has lowish miles. Consumer reports agrees-ish.
There are a few more things.
1. You may be able to get a better deal by calling around. See link here
2. Here is advice on how to help prevent the problem in the future
3. Should you repair or replace?
4. Use Subaru OEM headgaskets! They changed the construction a while back and you want the new ones. Your mechanic will use whichever headgaskets his supplier uses that maximizes his profits. You can buy the correct ones online by looking up your VIN and finding the part number.
5. Don't beat yourself over the car selection. It was not a mistake to act with the best knowledge that you had at the time.
posted by pdoege at 1:46 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
There are a few more things.
1. You may be able to get a better deal by calling around. See link here
2. Here is advice on how to help prevent the problem in the future
3. Should you repair or replace?
4. Use Subaru OEM headgaskets! They changed the construction a while back and you want the new ones. Your mechanic will use whichever headgaskets his supplier uses that maximizes his profits. You can buy the correct ones online by looking up your VIN and finding the part number.
5. Don't beat yourself over the car selection. It was not a mistake to act with the best knowledge that you had at the time.
posted by pdoege at 1:46 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
For your next car, you might want to take a look at 3 year mortgages and see if you can make that work financially for you. And just view the loan as essentially a lease where you don't have to worry about mileage (that's basically what a car loan is). That way if the car dies around the 3-4 year mark, at least you've paid it off. And you will have paid less in interest too (I foolishly bought my current car on a 6-year loan due to missing some car dealer shenanigans - we all make mistakes! - and I'm about to refinance it to a 3-year loan) This will probably mean getting a less-nice car than you'd like, which may not be worth it to you if you're driving that much.
Also, you're in Seattle, right? The market for late-model used Japanese/Korean reliable cars suuuuuuuuuucks here. Due to the mild weather and lack of salt on the roads, cars stay looking nice longer, and in general people don't buy these cars to sell them two years later. Even with dealer shenanigans, I bought my Kia for just a thousand or so more than I would have paid for a late-model used version. So you might want to see what kinds of deals you can get on a newer car. (I just posted a really long comment about this a few days ago) Buying new isn't always the right choice but it's not as clear-cut always the wrong choice as it used to be.
Oh one more thing: if you're a heavy driver and you're not going to be able to rely on a warranty, then a Subaru may not be the best option since they are notoriously expensive to fix. Toyota and Hondas are supposedly the cheapest, followed by Kias/Hyundais.
posted by lunasol at 1:57 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also, you're in Seattle, right? The market for late-model used Japanese/Korean reliable cars suuuuuuuuuucks here. Due to the mild weather and lack of salt on the roads, cars stay looking nice longer, and in general people don't buy these cars to sell them two years later. Even with dealer shenanigans, I bought my Kia for just a thousand or so more than I would have paid for a late-model used version. So you might want to see what kinds of deals you can get on a newer car. (I just posted a really long comment about this a few days ago) Buying new isn't always the right choice but it's not as clear-cut always the wrong choice as it used to be.
Oh one more thing: if you're a heavy driver and you're not going to be able to rely on a warranty, then a Subaru may not be the best option since they are notoriously expensive to fix. Toyota and Hondas are supposedly the cheapest, followed by Kias/Hyundais.
posted by lunasol at 1:57 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
I drive a hair less than you -- about 22k per year. I've had consistently good experiences purchasing new, reliable but inexpensive cars. Right now I'm driving a Honda Fit. Before that, an Insight. Before that, a Civic. (You see where I'm going with this: Honda.) The one time I had an expensive repair -- after my AC catastrophically failed and required a $2k repair, when the car was four years old -- I wrote to Honda and said "I expect better from you" and they fixed it for free. I routinely get 125k miles on my cars and then sell them.
I haven't done the math, but my comfort level comes into play here -- a new, reliable car, several years of reliable usage with just routine maintenance, and selling before anything big goes really wrong.
posted by BlahLaLa at 2:41 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
I haven't done the math, but my comfort level comes into play here -- a new, reliable car, several years of reliable usage with just routine maintenance, and selling before anything big goes really wrong.
posted by BlahLaLa at 2:41 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I am a very frugal car owner and have chimed in on these "What kind of car should I buy threads" in the past. My bona fides: I have been either at or below the median income of my community for most of my career, so I have to have cheap transportation and make do.
An example: our family owned a 2003 Mazda Protege5 from 2010 to 2017, 80k miles to 198k miles. We bought it for $5800, paid $600 for the recommended timing belt change at 110k miles, and $400 for a brake job once. Other than that it was all consumables. I checked the oil, radiator fluid and tire pressure almost biweekly. So, for 110k miles and seven years, I spent about $7000 plus the cost of gas and oil. The total cost of ownership was around $1000 per year. I doubt I will ever achieve that figure again!
I want to suggest a few things that haven't come up. One way to have a lower total cost of ownership is to purchase cars with simpler systems. You mention all-wheel drive. All-wheel drive is not a safety feature, even though auto companies like to tout it as one. Here are four different articles I found addressing this :
The myth of all-wheel drive (Globe and Mail)
All-wheel drive does not make you safer (Mr. Money Mustache)
Do you need all-wheel drive? (Edmunds)
All-wheel drive: do you need it? (US News and World Report)
In general, all-wheel drive can help you accelerate in certain snowy conditions. As the articles address, that is often a bad thing as it gives you a false sense of security. Why? All-wheel drive does not help you in any way stop or steer, which are ultimately more crucial to safety than accelerating. All-wheel drive may help you get moving, if you are otherwise stuck on a icy patch. It does not help you in the rain. According to your profile, you live in the Pacific Northwest, so you do not face snowy conditions. Even if you did, you can drive just fine, and safely, without all-wheel drive.
The three most important safety factors for driving in the rain are: patience, anti-lock brakes (which have been standard since the 90s) and your tires.
So, how could this help? Well, all-wheel drive adds both initial cost and a complicated system that could need expensive repairs. Further, all-wheel drive is heavy, so you are losing fuel efficiency to a system that you don't actually need or use. The same model with all-wheel drive loses 2 to 3 mpg in fuel efficiency to one that doesn't have it. If you are commuting 25k miles per year, fuel efficiency should be super important to you.
You also mention that all-wheel drive is handy because you like to hike and camp. I see this come up here on AskMe from time to time, and it always puzzles me. If you are going to a campsite or hiking trail and are driving in a wilderness area in such a way as that you are losing traction (and thus need traction on different wheels) you are really ripping up that natural area. If you are driving on some sort of wild west unmaintained trail road, you don't need all-wheel drive, you need four-wheel drive plus lots of ground clearance. Again, I imagine you aren't ripping up soil and digging through pristine natural areas at all, but rather you have perhaps been convinced by car companies that you need all-wheel drive in any condition but sunny weather. That's just not true, though.
I would strongly, strongly recommend that you no longer search for cars with all-wheel drive, so that you might save money.
Next, if you want to be a frugal driver, consider not having an automatic. Our Mazda Protege5 was a manual, and that meant that if my transmission went out, I was looking at $750, instead of $2000 in repairs. Also, people don't like manual transmissions, so they are usually $1000 or more cheaper on used car lots.
As people have mentioned above, always pay attention when a check engine light comes on. I tried to address those within the day I saw them with the Mazda. The two times it happened, the car just needed a sensor replaced, or a plug wire replaced. These were both, fortunately, inexpensive. Other problems though, I sometimes chose not to fix, such as the 12v power supply /cigarette lighter going out. We couldn't charge our phones in the car, but that meant that on long trips, one person turned off their phone to be safe.
We replaced the Mazda Protege5 with a 2016 Hyundai Sonata purchased from Hertz Car Rental with 35,000 miles. I was recently pleased to see it on a list as the least expensive sedan to own in the US. I've only put 5,000 miles on it, but so far, so good.
Good luck!
posted by Slothrop at 3:24 PM on March 3, 2018 [14 favorites]
An example: our family owned a 2003 Mazda Protege5 from 2010 to 2017, 80k miles to 198k miles. We bought it for $5800, paid $600 for the recommended timing belt change at 110k miles, and $400 for a brake job once. Other than that it was all consumables. I checked the oil, radiator fluid and tire pressure almost biweekly. So, for 110k miles and seven years, I spent about $7000 plus the cost of gas and oil. The total cost of ownership was around $1000 per year. I doubt I will ever achieve that figure again!
I want to suggest a few things that haven't come up. One way to have a lower total cost of ownership is to purchase cars with simpler systems. You mention all-wheel drive. All-wheel drive is not a safety feature, even though auto companies like to tout it as one. Here are four different articles I found addressing this :
The myth of all-wheel drive (Globe and Mail)
All-wheel drive does not make you safer (Mr. Money Mustache)
Do you need all-wheel drive? (Edmunds)
All-wheel drive: do you need it? (US News and World Report)
In general, all-wheel drive can help you accelerate in certain snowy conditions. As the articles address, that is often a bad thing as it gives you a false sense of security. Why? All-wheel drive does not help you in any way stop or steer, which are ultimately more crucial to safety than accelerating. All-wheel drive may help you get moving, if you are otherwise stuck on a icy patch. It does not help you in the rain. According to your profile, you live in the Pacific Northwest, so you do not face snowy conditions. Even if you did, you can drive just fine, and safely, without all-wheel drive.
The three most important safety factors for driving in the rain are: patience, anti-lock brakes (which have been standard since the 90s) and your tires.
So, how could this help? Well, all-wheel drive adds both initial cost and a complicated system that could need expensive repairs. Further, all-wheel drive is heavy, so you are losing fuel efficiency to a system that you don't actually need or use. The same model with all-wheel drive loses 2 to 3 mpg in fuel efficiency to one that doesn't have it. If you are commuting 25k miles per year, fuel efficiency should be super important to you.
You also mention that all-wheel drive is handy because you like to hike and camp. I see this come up here on AskMe from time to time, and it always puzzles me. If you are going to a campsite or hiking trail and are driving in a wilderness area in such a way as that you are losing traction (and thus need traction on different wheels) you are really ripping up that natural area. If you are driving on some sort of wild west unmaintained trail road, you don't need all-wheel drive, you need four-wheel drive plus lots of ground clearance. Again, I imagine you aren't ripping up soil and digging through pristine natural areas at all, but rather you have perhaps been convinced by car companies that you need all-wheel drive in any condition but sunny weather. That's just not true, though.
I would strongly, strongly recommend that you no longer search for cars with all-wheel drive, so that you might save money.
Next, if you want to be a frugal driver, consider not having an automatic. Our Mazda Protege5 was a manual, and that meant that if my transmission went out, I was looking at $750, instead of $2000 in repairs. Also, people don't like manual transmissions, so they are usually $1000 or more cheaper on used car lots.
As people have mentioned above, always pay attention when a check engine light comes on. I tried to address those within the day I saw them with the Mazda. The two times it happened, the car just needed a sensor replaced, or a plug wire replaced. These were both, fortunately, inexpensive. Other problems though, I sometimes chose not to fix, such as the 12v power supply /cigarette lighter going out. We couldn't charge our phones in the car, but that meant that on long trips, one person turned off their phone to be safe.
We replaced the Mazda Protege5 with a 2016 Hyundai Sonata purchased from Hertz Car Rental with 35,000 miles. I was recently pleased to see it on a list as the least expensive sedan to own in the US. I've only put 5,000 miles on it, but so far, so good.
Good luck!
posted by Slothrop at 3:24 PM on March 3, 2018 [14 favorites]
Unless you are actually going off-road, I think you should consider a 2 wheel drive car, less complexity, less weight, less cost, better mileage. Just put some decent tryes on it.
on preview, what Slothrop said.
posted by Lanark at 3:27 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
on preview, what Slothrop said.
posted by Lanark at 3:27 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
I had a very good experience purchasing used from a car rental company. The mechanicals are impeccably maintained and, as I have children, I give zero shits about the cosmetic imperfections as my kids began adding to them immediately. They are generally 2-3 years old, lower-cost-to-maintain options, and you generally get a slight discount for the used rental car stigma. I've been driving mine for 6 years with nothing but routine maintenance. It was so easy I might never buy a car another way again. I bought from Hertz; there was no bargaining, no hassle, and they give zero shits whether you pay cash, finance with them at a pretty standard rate, or get a car loan from your local financial institution of choice. (That is, they weren't trying to sell me into a loan where they make a ton of cash; they just gave me three options -- cash, our loan at these terms, or your loan -- and didn't care which one I picked.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:46 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:46 PM on March 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: As a data point for reliability, 15 out of the 20 most reliable cars of the last decade are Toyota/Lexus. On the down side, Toyota only sells 3(ish) models where AWD is available.
posted by glonous keming at 4:21 PM on March 3, 2018
posted by glonous keming at 4:21 PM on March 3, 2018
FWIW, we bought two cars from Hertz rent a car in 2012, and they're both going strong after about 40,000 miles each. Neither has AWD, however.
posted by cnc at 4:26 PM on March 3, 2018
posted by cnc at 4:26 PM on March 3, 2018
Also, you're in Seattle, right?
Far out, me too. MeMail if you want more deets, not that I haven't overshared.
posted by mwhybark at 4:51 PM on March 3, 2018
Far out, me too. MeMail if you want more deets, not that I haven't overshared.
posted by mwhybark at 4:51 PM on March 3, 2018
Best answer: A data point regarding AWD and Seattle: the city and metro area is very hilly, and our arterials are prone to catastrophic closures. There is no snow or ice clearance provision for neighborhoods. Once a year or every other (and occasionally more so) we experience a large snowstorm which produces impassable neighborhood streets. The impassability persists until the temperature rises. For long-commute people, an AWD vehicle in the family car portfolio is an absolute requirement, unless the job is either perfectly secure or optional.
Our solution to the imbroglio is clear: a Prius for good weather, a Subaru for snow. I'm satisfied with our per-mile costs, although I wish I could pay insurance on the Subie that just covers days actually driven, or possibly per-mile.
posted by mwhybark at 5:04 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Our solution to the imbroglio is clear: a Prius for good weather, a Subaru for snow. I'm satisfied with our per-mile costs, although I wish I could pay insurance on the Subie that just covers days actually driven, or possibly per-mile.
posted by mwhybark at 5:04 PM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
that's leaving aside the roughly 10K we still owe
Ouch.
I've never bought a car that cost me more than AU$3500 up front.
The idea of spending more on repairing and maintaining a car than you paid for it in the first place strikes many people as a waste. I've never understood why. My aim is to spend as little as possible in total and if a $3500 total engine rebuild will put another 500,000km on my $3500 car, I'm still well ahead of somebody who spent >$10000 in the first place.
posted by flabdablet at 6:38 PM on March 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
Ouch.
I've never bought a car that cost me more than AU$3500 up front.
The idea of spending more on repairing and maintaining a car than you paid for it in the first place strikes many people as a waste. I've never understood why. My aim is to spend as little as possible in total and if a $3500 total engine rebuild will put another 500,000km on my $3500 car, I'm still well ahead of somebody who spent >$10000 in the first place.
posted by flabdablet at 6:38 PM on March 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
oops! I just noticed my Prius numbers above are in error in that the total-based sums reflect totals as of three years ago rather than through 2017. I had failed to extend the summed ranges when I updated the spreadsheet last month
TOTAL COST INCL MAINT GAS AND PURCH
$30,550.44 (replaces stated $19,121.31)
MTM - INCL PURCH - EXCL PURCH
PRIUS - $407.34 - $238.08
SUBARU - $172.80 - $127.23
PER MILE
PRIUS 19 cents
SUBARU 22 cents
The initially-stated month detail totals in the first post are accurate; it was the summed totals that were off, reflecting costs only through 2013. Mods, please consider strikethroughs or something on the affected totals in the post. I realize it's suboptimal, feel free to drop a line if you have a preferred solution that requires my further input. I have flagged this post and the prior one.
posted by mwhybark at 7:07 PM on March 3, 2018
TOTAL COST INCL MAINT GAS AND PURCH
$30,550.44 (replaces stated $19,121.31)
MTM - INCL PURCH - EXCL PURCH
PRIUS - $407.34 - $238.08
SUBARU - $172.80 - $127.23
PER MILE
PRIUS 19 cents
SUBARU 22 cents
The initially-stated month detail totals in the first post are accurate; it was the summed totals that were off, reflecting costs only through 2013. Mods, please consider strikethroughs or something on the affected totals in the post. I realize it's suboptimal, feel free to drop a line if you have a preferred solution that requires my further input. I have flagged this post and the prior one.
posted by mwhybark at 7:07 PM on March 3, 2018
Best answer: Seems like the best option at this point, if the car is in otherwise decent condition, is to do the repairs and drive it. 150,000 miles for a Subaru head gasket is not particularly unusual. If you put in a new head gasket you should expect the head gasket to last the remaining life of the car.
If you don't repair the car, you can probably kiss off most of the remaining 10K you owe. It seems that you can't afford not to repair the car. Repairing is a lot cheaper than not repairing.
If due, I would recommend new timing belt, water pump and seals at the same time. Additional labor should be low because the engine is already out of the car. If you add on these repairs, make sure that they quote you based on this reduced labor. Don't let them quote you the timing belt and water pump straight out of the "book" as if they were separate repairs.
You should be able to get a couple of quotes from a couple of independent Subaru repair shops by phone. These are common repairs.
posted by JackFlash at 7:20 PM on March 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
If you don't repair the car, you can probably kiss off most of the remaining 10K you owe. It seems that you can't afford not to repair the car. Repairing is a lot cheaper than not repairing.
If due, I would recommend new timing belt, water pump and seals at the same time. Additional labor should be low because the engine is already out of the car. If you add on these repairs, make sure that they quote you based on this reduced labor. Don't let them quote you the timing belt and water pump straight out of the "book" as if they were separate repairs.
You should be able to get a couple of quotes from a couple of independent Subaru repair shops by phone. These are common repairs.
posted by JackFlash at 7:20 PM on March 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
You don’t need AWD in Seattle unless you are going over the Cascade passes in a snowstorm and don’t want, per WSDOT, to put on tire chains. Otherwise the situations where AWD is fine but 2wd inadequate are asymptotically nonexistent, and “rain and accidents” definitely aren’t reasons to go AWD. You’ll save a ton of money, in gas and repairs, on a slightly used 2wd Toyota.
But for now I agree with those who say, do the head gasket and keep this car, for being-underwater reasons.
posted by Kwine at 8:54 PM on March 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
But for now I agree with those who say, do the head gasket and keep this car, for being-underwater reasons.
posted by Kwine at 8:54 PM on March 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
I also live in a very mild weather area, and I found that there was essentially zero depreciation on extremely reliable cars in the first year. Like, maybe $500-1000 on a 1-year-old Civic with reasonable miles. The situation is different in places where the body is going to rust, but I never found that route to work out. The key is that you won't be doing "reasonable" miles by most definitions (no judgement, it's just not the conventional amount). Agree with others that AWD doesn't help at all in rain, maybe you are referring to muddy conditions? Because that requirement is pushing you into less reliable (Subaru) or more expensive (SUV) vehicles. Are you a single-car household, so the high-mileage car has to be the AWD one? If it were me I'd check the Consumer Reports ratings, buy a sedan or hatchback that gets great mileage (we found the Prius premium was only worth it in high-mileage situations), and drive it until it dies.
posted by wnissen at 8:16 AM on March 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by wnissen at 8:16 AM on March 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If you really need an AWD car, then maybe you need two cars -- a Subaru, and then a low-end ultra-reliable economy car like a Fit or a Yaris. You can drive the Fit or Yaris 90% of the time, when the weather's nice and you're not hauling huge loads, and save the Subaru for when you really need it. Obviously this has higher up-front cost, but it might save a lot in the long term. And there's no reason to wear out the expensive AWD drive train when you don't really need it.
posted by miyabo at 10:01 AM on March 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by miyabo at 10:01 AM on March 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: You guys are AMAZING.
First and foremost: based on your suggestions about how much blown head gaskets should cost to repair, we took the car to a different (though well reviewed) repair shop for about 1/3 the cost of the first suggested repair and are also adding on the things suggested above (timing belt, water pump, seals), to help increase its life.
Secondly, you guys have blown my mind re having a second car (once we can afford it) for regular commuting, and switching this one to camping trips, grocery shopping, and bad weather. I'll be looking at a Toyota without AWD, per advice - it looks like there's a lot of them out there that aren't too old at much more reasonable prices.
posted by corb at 10:17 AM on March 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
First and foremost: based on your suggestions about how much blown head gaskets should cost to repair, we took the car to a different (though well reviewed) repair shop for about 1/3 the cost of the first suggested repair and are also adding on the things suggested above (timing belt, water pump, seals), to help increase its life.
Secondly, you guys have blown my mind re having a second car (once we can afford it) for regular commuting, and switching this one to camping trips, grocery shopping, and bad weather. I'll be looking at a Toyota without AWD, per advice - it looks like there's a lot of them out there that aren't too old at much more reasonable prices.
posted by corb at 10:17 AM on March 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
I used AWD on the eastside for my seal and gasket job. I have used both Suburb Service in Shoreline and Scanwest on Greenwood for various replacements. Suburb is great but they have a lot of rules and it can be a little tiresome to be told you are not following them. I understand this to be a way that they reduce their customer base. Scanwest fixed a tricky electrical issue for me at a very reasonable price and have always been kind and accommodating. I go to Carter for an oil change and a once over every year or so but they definitely cost more than the indie shops.
One thing that has changed since 2011 is the greater availability of independent Prius mechanics. As noted, my wife still prefers the dealer but it's surely possible to go with indies now. Around the time we were looking at the Prius I was encouraged to examine Toyota's non-hybrid economy offerings such as the Yaris and I was quite surprised to see how competitive they were in terms of mileage and cost of ownership.
posted by mwhybark at 12:58 PM on March 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
One thing that has changed since 2011 is the greater availability of independent Prius mechanics. As noted, my wife still prefers the dealer but it's surely possible to go with indies now. Around the time we were looking at the Prius I was encouraged to examine Toyota's non-hybrid economy offerings such as the Yaris and I was quite surprised to see how competitive they were in terms of mileage and cost of ownership.
posted by mwhybark at 12:58 PM on March 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Correct. You don't want to lease. I would suggest taking that off the table. Leases are great tools, but if you're in a higher milage zone, that tool isn't a good one.
Extra warranties offered by any party are usually gamed so that you don't really benefit from them. There are usually so many caveats that the entities offering the warranty come out ahead. This is a bummer.
If your only goal is to not be underwater on a car loan is to pay for most of it upfront, drastically increase your monthly payment or pay cash in total.
If your goal is to get to a situation where you're not underwater and want to find a vehicle that suits you, I think more information is needed. this is not meant to be judgmental at all, but it's not clear in the question, but are you keeping up on scheduled maintenance? Have you considered upping that maintenance to more frequent intervals? "A couple years" and "serious failure" are too vague to diagnose the situation as normal wear-and-tear or an aberration. If you could include year purchased, make, model, year and total mileage, folks will have a better chance of getting you in the right zone.
posted by furnace.heart at 11:45 AM on March 3, 2018 [4 favorites]