Comments on: Help prevent statelessness for a family.

Question: Help prevent statelessness for a family.

By The Grace of God — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:42:42 -0800

What countries are most likely to take in an Arab Muslim family whose husband is being kicked out of the US for political reasons?

An Arab Muslim family is being kicked out of the US political reasons. Well, the father and husband's lost his citizenship and is being forcibly expelled from the US, and his wife and children want to go with him.

He's on various US s--tlists so it's not likely a place like the UK would take them. I'm looking for countries that would take this family in - particularly countries that are a good place for young girls who have grown to pre-teen-hood in the West to grow up. Countries that have a history of accepting individuals and families like this from the US, UK, Australia and the like are especially choice answers.

Ideas I've gotten so far include Dominica (has taken expelled UK Arab Muslim dissidents) and Venezuela (loves to make protesting gestures). Email's in my profile if you'd like more details. And yes, this is quite unjust and this gentle family does not deserve this.

By: matteo

matteo — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:54:46 -0800

Cuba?

By: By The Grace of God

By The Grace of God — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:57:22 -0800

I've gotten Cuba, too, as a suggestion. :) It is definitely on the list, but it would be a big difference for those girls as well. It also is lacking in political and personal freedom, albeit for different reasons than the US is for this family.

Does Cuba take in particularly Muslim political no-no people from the US?

By: slater

slater — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:05:51 -0800

What part of the arab world is this family from? Saudi Arabia? iRaq? Iran?

I have a friend of mine here in Switzerland who fled Iran in the early 80s with her mother, with precious few things other than the stuff in their suitcases. Switzerland was kinda accomodating to them... maybe this family can make a case for political persecution / hardship etc.?

By: jamesonandwater

jamesonandwater — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:09:58 -0800

What is their background and what are their skills generally? If the parents are well educated, have some cash and are middle class they could probably have a good life in a lot of countries - my sister in law and her kids have it very good in Bangladesh, for example, and would never leave.

Would the dad fail a CIA background check? I've no idea about the process involved in emigrating to a developing country, and whether the paperwork is so onerous as US/Canadian/Irish/etc immigration.

(And how on earth does one "lose citizenship"? Are the kids US citizens? If so, staying and visiting dad in Venezuela/wherever a couple of times a year may be the way to go. I can't imagine there's much of an Arab expat support community in Cuba or Venezuela).

By: By The Grace of God

By The Grace of God — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:10:23 -0800

The mom and dad are originally from a West Bank Palestinian refugee camp. The kids visited last year and... didn't adjust well. Palestinians often get treated like crud by other Middle Eastern countries including the ones that purport to support Palestine and they often wind up stateless when this happens to them.

By: By The Grace of God

By The Grace of God — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:18:12 -0800

The dad's citizenship was revoked.

By: By The Grace of God

By The Grace of God — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:24:20 -0800

Dad's a professor, Mom's a homemaker.

Yeah, he'd fail a CIA background check, I think.

By: jellicle

jellicle — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:30:37 -0800

Canada is always open, at least to people in reasonable health who speak english or french and have at least minimal skills to support themselves.

Since there aren't many possible reasons for losing one's citizenship, I assume the reason was "lying during the immigration process". I would suggest trying Canada, and telling the truth this time.

By: b1tr0t

b1tr0t — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:47:54 -0800

How about China? As long as he doesn't have links to the Islamic groups resisting Chinese rule in the far western provinces, they might not have much trouble. Professors get a lot more respect in China than they do in the USA, so it could end up working out very well for them.

Of course, China does have its censorship and freedom issues, but if you make an effort to avoid getting in trouble, it should be fine.

By: nathan_teske

nathan_teske — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:53:17 -0800

What about Indonesia? (Or if angling for China, Hong Kong.)

By: contessa

contessa — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:57:13 -0800

Have they considered the UAE?

By: jamesonandwater

jamesonandwater — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:21:30 -0800

I think failing a CIA check would rule out Canada - I certainly had to provide fingerprints to them to get my Canadian residence.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:29:04 -0800

I'd also suggest Canada, though I supppose it all depends on why they are being expelled.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:33:42 -0800

There isn't any CIA check, AFAIK. There's an FBI check looking for crimes committed in the US, and similar police checks in the country of origin.

If the formal reason that his citizenship was revoked is relatively "innocent," he might have decent odds with any other OECD country. That is, if he didn't admit to a petty-theft or other nonserious crime as a kid because he didn't think that counted, or if he didn't admit to an overstay in 1984 that he didn't know he'd committed, of if he was a nominal member of some Unsavory Group as a kid and didn't own up to it because he didn't know it was on the list of Unsavory Groups or that they cared about what you did when you were eleven. In a case like that, Canada might be a good bet but he should be prepared to have to explain his US situation pretty well.

By: rxrfrx

rxrfrx — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 12:02:33 -0800

How does one lose citizenship? I always thought it was irrevokable after you get it, unless you try to take down the government with guns or something.

By: anjamu

anjamu — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 12:49:07 -0800

Sweden or another Nordic country?

I know the Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen was taken into Sweden, and they can be generous.

Switzerland is a good idea too.

Brasil might be another idea. Actually, a lot of leftist governments in Latin America might love to run up against the US on something like that.

By: thewittyname

thewittyname — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 12:52:14 -0800

Yes, once you get citizenship, you can't get that revoked. Perhaps you mean that he lost his permanent resident alien status?

By: selfnoise

selfnoise — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 12:58:33 -0800

It's hard, but not impossible. You can lose citizenship if you willingly join a hostile military force or commit an act of treason. You have to be convicted of treason in a U.S. Court, though, AFAIK. There are also various voluntary ways to relinquish it.

More information at Wikipedia and the US State Dept.

By: phearlez

phearlez — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:14:32 -0800

if this is who I think it is, can't his older daughters take the younger ones in? Obviously they'd like to be with mom & dad but it's hard to imagine this is a good move for them; in particular I'd be concerned about their citizenship status. While I certainly wouldn't blame them for not being high on being US citizens under the current administration it may offer them better future opportunities than many traditionalist muslim countries would...

By: tiamat

tiamat — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:22:29 -0800

ROU_Xenophobe is pretty much correct on this. There's an FBI check that Canada will probably cross list, but that'll only show crimes he commited IN the states. The fact he has a file can probably be explained away as long as ALL he did last time was tell a little white lie to get into the USA.

Mind you, it's much safer (speaking in a game theoritical approach to National Security) for no-one to take this guy, as 'something' is wrong with his past. So keep that in mind and remember he's going to have to jump through hoops, and while the US MAY be screwing him that does not equate to any other nation having to be nice to him.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:38:37 -0800

How does one lose citizenship?

Natural-born US citizens have a tough time losing it, even when they want to, but it can be done. It can even be done against your will, but not by ordinary means (taking high elective office in a foreign country, fighting in someone else's army against the US, etc).

Naturalized US citizens can also lose their citizenship if it was fraudulently or illegitimately obtained, most commonly if they fibbed during the immigration process.

But revoking citizenship is pretty hardcore. BTGoG, are you sure that he's a US citizen and not just a permanent resident?

By: blueyellow

blueyellow — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:08:54 -0800

This seems strange to me. I am not sure I would want to help him if he actualy has a terrorist related past (and/or present). And I can't think of any other reason they would deport a palestinian man these days. But he has a family that probably do not know any better, and now will probably grow up hearing a lot more anti-american rhetoric and be potential recruits themselves. I guess he is a friend of yours so I hope you know what you are doing. Anyway the best website for people looking to move to a new country is escape artist. He can find a lot of information about the policies and opportunities of different countries and get contact information there.

By: blueyellow

blueyellow — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:28:09 -0800

Also, I wouldn't bother with which countries would accept them as refugees, to make an anti-american statement. Just to try to find a country that would accept them for what they can offer the country. If he is a prof in a useful field that might be a powerful incentive.

I agree that going back to Palestine doesn't seem like a good idea, especially now that Hamas (his affiliation?) is deciding to separate classrooms into males and females as one of their first steps of improving palestinian society.

By: jellicle

jellicle — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:09:24 -0800

crabintheocean: you're missing part of the original question. There are plenty of ways not to be allowed to immigrate, especially if you're a Muslim Arab. But, having been granted citizenship, there are only a couple of ways to lose it. Of those, lying to Immigration seems by far the most likely.

I reiterate Canada. It isn't going to be easy or fast, but Canada has some sympathy for people screwed by U.S. immigration, and it is a, you know, Western democracy.

By: greatgefilte

greatgefilte — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:46:02 -0800

You forgot Poland.

By: crabintheocean

crabintheocean — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:42:46 -0800

jellicle. I was responding to your tone, and your assumption that things with the US Govt are simple enough that "if you're straight with them, they'll be straight with you", I wasn't responding to the facts you gave, I'm pretty familiar with them.

My original post has been deleted anyway.

By: divabat

divabat — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 19:36:10 -0800

Malaysia seems to be a good fit - it's a moderate Muslim country, which should satisfy the whole family. There's also Singapore, which is secular but has a good Muslim community if that's important to them.

By: By The Grace of God

By The Grace of God — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:59:21 -0800

Thanks, guys. Will bring a buncha this up with the lawyer and will be flagging best answers according to his responses.

He's not affiliated with ANYTHING. He is politically more like a left-wing Metafilter reader than not, although quite a devout Muslim. (that in itself is scary to the powers that be I think.) He got railroaded. I've got lots of details all for the price of an email to the address in my profile. :)

By: By The Grace of God

By The Grace of God — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 00:17:07 -0800

blueyellow, remember the McCarthy era. People get painted with a brush for political reasons, and the word that they get tagged with 'communist,' 'terrorist' whatever becomes SO loaded in the zeitgeist of the day that even people who ordinarily would help get scared off. I just can't see myself becoming one of those people, so I'll help.

Anyway, he's fought this for three years and has decided to leave voluntarily. People started threatening his Western, suburban, Harry Potter reading, hijab wearing children. I want those girls to have the best start in life possible.

By: By The Grace of God

By The Grace of God — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 00:18:16 -0800

and escape artist looks great, thanks for the link.