I, III, III??
February 2, 2006 7:16 AM Subscribe
Question about proper name suffixes.
A family has a three generations, a father named Larry Sr, his son named Larry Jr. and a new baby named Larry. What would be the proper suffix for the new baby be? Larry I? Larry III? Not sure how to Google this. Thanks in advance.
A family has a three generations, a father named Larry Sr, his son named Larry Jr. and a new baby named Larry. What would be the proper suffix for the new baby be? Larry I? Larry III? Not sure how to Google this. Thanks in advance.
I am William III. Of course, there's a comma after the full name. As in:
John Dingle Smith, III
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:55 AM on February 2, 2006
John Dingle Smith, III
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:55 AM on February 2, 2006
Also, if it's not tool late, don't do this to your kid. Give him his own name. You're setting yourself up for at least 18 years of needless confusion if you do it. I have been there and there will be no William IV.
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:57 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:57 AM on February 2, 2006
My cousin is a 3rd... when he was little, he loved to walk around the house and proclaim to anyone who'd listen that he was a John William Smith*, the Turd.
You really had to be there.
I'm a junior, my mother considered using II instead, which isn't nearly as much fun.
*Name changed to protect the innocent.
posted by friezer at 8:01 AM on February 2, 2006
You really had to be there.
I'm a junior, my mother considered using II instead, which isn't nearly as much fun.
*Name changed to protect the innocent.
posted by friezer at 8:01 AM on February 2, 2006
there will be no William IV.
If you named your son William, he would not be William the IVth unless Father and Grandfather are both alive.
The oldest person by that name has no suffix, the next is Junior, the next is III, the next IVth. But only people currently alive count. When Senior dies, Junior becomes Senior, III becomes Junior IV becomes III. Unless you're royalty of course.
THat's your $10 Miss Manners answer for free.
posted by duck at 8:06 AM on February 2, 2006
If you named your son William, he would not be William the IVth unless Father and Grandfather are both alive.
The oldest person by that name has no suffix, the next is Junior, the next is III, the next IVth. But only people currently alive count. When Senior dies, Junior becomes Senior, III becomes Junior IV becomes III. Unless you're royalty of course.
THat's your $10 Miss Manners answer for free.
posted by duck at 8:06 AM on February 2, 2006
So, folks like my father (who is/was a III) and (possibly) Mayor Curley, not to mention notable luminaries such as Hank Williams, Jr. and Dale Earnhardt, Jr. are all operating in direct violation of Miss Manners' rules? Yikes.
posted by daveleck at 8:18 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by daveleck at 8:18 AM on February 2, 2006
Larry III.
It's also worth pointing out that unless you are royalty, or the bishop of Rome, the suffixes should only last as long as all generations are alive.
So, for example, Larry fathers Larry Jr. who fathers Larry III. If grandpa Larry dies before Larry IV is fathered, then he should NOT be named Larry IV.
Proper decorum dictates that everyone is "promoted", thus Larry Jr becomes Larry, and so on, but realistically (and legally) this is an awful lot of work. Larry IV -- if one REALLY wanted to keep the mighty Larry name alive -- should be simply Larry, or Larry Jr.
Larry II is reserved for other members of the family, who want to use the Larry name, but are not direct descendents of Larry.
I've never typed "Larry" so many times in my life. So everyone is a winner here.
Here's a source.
posted by rentalkarma at 8:21 AM on February 2, 2006
It's also worth pointing out that unless you are royalty, or the bishop of Rome, the suffixes should only last as long as all generations are alive.
So, for example, Larry fathers Larry Jr. who fathers Larry III. If grandpa Larry dies before Larry IV is fathered, then he should NOT be named Larry IV.
Proper decorum dictates that everyone is "promoted", thus Larry Jr becomes Larry, and so on, but realistically (and legally) this is an awful lot of work. Larry IV -- if one REALLY wanted to keep the mighty Larry name alive -- should be simply Larry, or Larry Jr.
Larry II is reserved for other members of the family, who want to use the Larry name, but are not direct descendents of Larry.
I've never typed "Larry" so many times in my life. So everyone is a winner here.
Here's a source.
posted by rentalkarma at 8:21 AM on February 2, 2006
Beaten to the punch by duck! Quack quack!
posted by rentalkarma at 8:22 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by rentalkarma at 8:22 AM on February 2, 2006
My name is the same as my father's. But where I come from, if your name has "Jr." on the end, you're called "Junior". My mom didn't want that to happen, so I'm "II". So I think it's flexible.
posted by trip and a half at 9:00 AM on February 2, 2006
posted by trip and a half at 9:00 AM on February 2, 2006
It hasn't happened yet, but when my father dies, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to promote myself. Everything from my birth certificate to my driver's license to my social security card has Jr. written on it.
Another wrinkle: my understanding has always been that if the baby has a different middle name than the father and grandfather, no suffix is attached at all.
posted by BackwardsCity at 9:20 AM on February 2, 2006
Another wrinkle: my understanding has always been that if the baby has a different middle name than the father and grandfather, no suffix is attached at all.
posted by BackwardsCity at 9:20 AM on February 2, 2006
That wasn't clear, b/c the grandfather is irrelevant in the equation.
If father and son have the SameFirstName SameMiddleName SameLastName, then the son is a junior/III/IV/etc.
If any of those is different, no suffix is used.
posted by BackwardsCity at 9:22 AM on February 2, 2006
If father and son have the SameFirstName SameMiddleName SameLastName, then the son is a junior/III/IV/etc.
If any of those is different, no suffix is used.
posted by BackwardsCity at 9:22 AM on February 2, 2006
"I am William III. Of course, there's a comma after the full name."
Of course, not if you're using AP English or most other style guides. William F. Buckley Jr. or William F. Buckley III (assuming there is a third W.F.B.).
posted by klangklangston at 9:33 AM on February 2, 2006
Of course, not if you're using AP English or most other style guides. William F. Buckley Jr. or William F. Buckley III (assuming there is a third W.F.B.).
posted by klangklangston at 9:33 AM on February 2, 2006
BackwardsCity: I think that's correct. Some people even add another middle name to avoid the issue. Thus the various generations of my law partner's family (names changed to protect . . . everyone):
1. John B. Smith (famous and illustrious)
2. John B. Smith, Jr. (not famous; named after his father)
3. John B. A. Smith (my partner; named after his famous grandfather with the same middle name as well, but with an additional middle name which is the maiden name of his mother)
My partner corrects people all the time when they list him as John B. A. Smith, III.
Did that make sense?
posted by The Bellman at 9:43 AM on February 2, 2006
1. John B. Smith (famous and illustrious)
2. John B. Smith, Jr. (not famous; named after his father)
3. John B. A. Smith (my partner; named after his famous grandfather with the same middle name as well, but with an additional middle name which is the maiden name of his mother)
My partner corrects people all the time when they list him as John B. A. Smith, III.
Did that make sense?
posted by The Bellman at 9:43 AM on February 2, 2006
The oldest person by that name has no suffix, the next is Junior, the next is III, the next IVth. But only people currently alive count. When Senior dies, Junior becomes Senior, III becomes Junior IV becomes III. Unless you're royalty of course.
Then YOU deal with the social security administration. Seriously, that may have been proper at one time, but it's not practical for most of us now. You could drop the suffix for your son, I suppose, but that's adding to the confusion.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:21 AM on February 2, 2006
Then YOU deal with the social security administration. Seriously, that may have been proper at one time, but it's not practical for most of us now. You could drop the suffix for your son, I suppose, but that's adding to the confusion.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:21 AM on February 2, 2006
My partner corrects people all the time when they list him as John B. A. Smith, III.
Did that make sense?
Not only does it make sense, it illustrates why you should give your child a name that's distinct from yours.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:22 AM on February 2, 2006
Did that make sense?
Not only does it make sense, it illustrates why you should give your child a name that's distinct from yours.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:22 AM on February 2, 2006
You know, it never occurred to me that the suffix was actually part of the name. I think of it as something stuck on the end descriptive of the person. No different from having "s.j." or "K.B.E." "Esq." or any other designation after your name.
If I had a "junior" kid, I don't think it would even occur to me to put "junior" on their birth certificates, school documents or anything else. I guess if you did treat it as part of your actual name rather than a sort of title or designation, it would be a pain to promote yourself everytime someone relevant dies.
posted by duck at 10:31 AM on February 2, 2006
If I had a "junior" kid, I don't think it would even occur to me to put "junior" on their birth certificates, school documents or anything else. I guess if you did treat it as part of your actual name rather than a sort of title or designation, it would be a pain to promote yourself everytime someone relevant dies.
posted by duck at 10:31 AM on February 2, 2006
If father and son have the SameFirstName SameMiddleName SameLastName, then the son is a junior/III/IV/etc.
If any of those is different, no suffix is used.
I named my son with a different middle name and a "Jr." on the birth certificate. Is Miss Manners going to hunt me down and beat me with a brick in a pillowcase?
posted by designbot at 11:21 AM on February 2, 2006
If any of those is different, no suffix is used.
I named my son with a different middle name and a "Jr." on the birth certificate. Is Miss Manners going to hunt me down and beat me with a brick in a pillowcase?
posted by designbot at 11:21 AM on February 2, 2006
I named my son with a different middle name and a "Jr." on the birth certificate. Is Miss Manners going to hunt me down and beat me with a brick in a pillowcase?
She looks pretty mean in those pictures. I would lock my door if I were you.
Seriously, I'm no fan of Miss Manners. I think she thinks of these rules as some sort of moral precepts rather than just conventions (which by virtue of being conventions can change by mutual consent of parties involved), and can vary a great deal by culture and subculture.
So name your kid whatever you like. You don't have to use a suffix at all if you don't have to (lots of people give their kids the same name and don't use a suffix at all). Or name him the 17th, if you like.
posted by duck at 12:34 PM on February 2, 2006
She looks pretty mean in those pictures. I would lock my door if I were you.
Seriously, I'm no fan of Miss Manners. I think she thinks of these rules as some sort of moral precepts rather than just conventions (which by virtue of being conventions can change by mutual consent of parties involved), and can vary a great deal by culture and subculture.
So name your kid whatever you like. You don't have to use a suffix at all if you don't have to (lots of people give their kids the same name and don't use a suffix at all). Or name him the 17th, if you like.
posted by duck at 12:34 PM on February 2, 2006
Traditionally, if you give your kid a different middle name, he's a II, not a Jr.
posted by desuetude at 1:09 PM on February 2, 2006
posted by desuetude at 1:09 PM on February 2, 2006
Not that I think that it matters a whit. People should name their kids whatever they like, tradition be damned.
posted by desuetude at 1:10 PM on February 2, 2006
posted by desuetude at 1:10 PM on February 2, 2006
We have a run of these in my family. In our case, the numbers aren't on the birth certificate, they're just used occasionally for disambiguation.
posted by tangerine at 1:27 PM on February 2, 2006
posted by tangerine at 1:27 PM on February 2, 2006
You all are what makes this place great. Thanks so much for your answers!
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 2:59 PM on February 2, 2006
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 2:59 PM on February 2, 2006
So, my Dad is Rock Terwilliger Steady. My cousin (older than I) is named Rock Terwilliger Steady. I am also named Rock Terwilliger Steady. This means my cousin is Rock Terwilliger Steady, II and I am Rock Terwilliger Steady, Jr.?
posted by Rock Steady at 4:38 PM on February 2, 2006
posted by Rock Steady at 4:38 PM on February 2, 2006
Mis Manners is wrong about the use of Sr. I've been reading 17th, 18th and 19th century records, and they always use Sr as well as Jr, to be clear.
posted by jb at 2:28 AM on February 6, 2006
posted by jb at 2:28 AM on February 6, 2006
Also, I know someone who goes by a IV, and I don't think all generations are living. But the I, II and III are pretty well known, so maybe it stops confusion.
And I agree with duck on Miss Manners. She takes what is "proper manners" in one period of time and one subculture, and normalises to all.
posted by jb at 2:32 AM on February 6, 2006
And I agree with duck on Miss Manners. She takes what is "proper manners" in one period of time and one subculture, and normalises to all.
posted by jb at 2:32 AM on February 6, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by iconomy at 7:18 AM on February 2, 2006