Help me get my kid to go to sleep, please!
January 31, 2018 7:13 PM Subscribe
My 3.5 year old stalls and stalls bedtime. Asks for one more story, needs water, fix the blankets,etc. I feel like I have tried every technique in the book, from gently 'frontloading' to angrily threatening to take away his favourite blanket for the night. Complicated by the fact that his yelling wakes up baby.
Walking away and ignoring doesn't work - it just riles him up more. The worst part is that his loud whining and/ or stomping and/or yelling (eg "come baack, I want one more story") wakes up the new baby, who is sleeping in another room. He is a strong-willed child, for whom bribery and punishment don't work well. He is stubborn about a lot of other things too, but I manage to find ways around those; however, bedtime is the one issue I can't seem to fix. We're talking 1.5hours after he is done all the routine stuff. Any suggestions? Thanks!
Walking away and ignoring doesn't work - it just riles him up more. The worst part is that his loud whining and/ or stomping and/or yelling (eg "come baack, I want one more story") wakes up the new baby, who is sleeping in another room. He is a strong-willed child, for whom bribery and punishment don't work well. He is stubborn about a lot of other things too, but I manage to find ways around those; however, bedtime is the one issue I can't seem to fix. We're talking 1.5hours after he is done all the routine stuff. Any suggestions? Thanks!
Persistence, and not rewarding the stubbornness. I would have a short routine every night-water, potty, story, tuck-in-and ps, an earlier bedtime. Do not give an extra story, or more water, or an additional potty break. Bed is Bed. If he continues to yell, bedtime is earlier the next night.
If you have a way to play soft music or have a small dim nightlight or something on, I would do that.
I never had a lot of rules for my kids but they knew if I had one it was inviolate. Does he know your word is law in other areas? It is way too easy to accidentally reward bad behavior, we all do it, but particularly with the strong willed ones, you have to outlast them. (I had one. Her brother and sister were easy. She made up for it.)
Oh, and you know that part of this is because of the new baby, right? I assume you are already giving him extra cuddles and attention at earlier times of the day-do not quit, he needs it.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:23 PM on January 31, 2018 [13 favorites]
If you have a way to play soft music or have a small dim nightlight or something on, I would do that.
I never had a lot of rules for my kids but they knew if I had one it was inviolate. Does he know your word is law in other areas? It is way too easy to accidentally reward bad behavior, we all do it, but particularly with the strong willed ones, you have to outlast them. (I had one. Her brother and sister were easy. She made up for it.)
Oh, and you know that part of this is because of the new baby, right? I assume you are already giving him extra cuddles and attention at earlier times of the day-do not quit, he needs it.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:23 PM on January 31, 2018 [13 favorites]
Agree with St Alia. Put the new baby in a different location further away with a white noise machine to drown out the stomping fit.
posted by Toddles at 7:34 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 7:34 PM on January 31, 2018 [3 favorites]
When I was a little one, I recall fondly a record (yes, vinyl) of Dr. Seuss' "Sleep Book" read in a very gentle, soothing manner-- I was allowed to listen to it as many times as I wanted, in my own room, alone, but usually I'd be out halfway through the first playthrough. Maybe there are similar recordings/devices like this nowadays?
posted by The otter lady at 7:34 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by The otter lady at 7:34 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
I have not had a child this age.
However, I have been facebook advertised books called "The _____ Who wants to fall asleep" There's a bunny a tractor and an elephant. I would go with the elephant or tractor. The bunny seems to have creepy drawings.
Anyway, I was curious about these books so I did some goolging around. They have mixed reviews but if you read the reviews, that seems to be because they don't work on younger kids. It looks like people suggest 3 or 4 (mostly 4) as the minimum age. But for those people using them with kids that are old enough they do seem to work.
I was curious as to *how* they worked and from googling around blog posts, it seems like the story is essentially a guided relaxation exercise (relax your feet, now relax your knees etc.). There are instructions with suggested pacing and word emphasis based on the font/design of the text. So the idea is that you read the kid the book and they're asleep long before it's over. Assuming they're old enough to get it and follow along.
It might be worth a try. Presumably this requires that he want to/be willing to fall asleep.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:40 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
However, I have been facebook advertised books called "The _____ Who wants to fall asleep" There's a bunny a tractor and an elephant. I would go with the elephant or tractor. The bunny seems to have creepy drawings.
Anyway, I was curious about these books so I did some goolging around. They have mixed reviews but if you read the reviews, that seems to be because they don't work on younger kids. It looks like people suggest 3 or 4 (mostly 4) as the minimum age. But for those people using them with kids that are old enough they do seem to work.
I was curious as to *how* they worked and from googling around blog posts, it seems like the story is essentially a guided relaxation exercise (relax your feet, now relax your knees etc.). There are instructions with suggested pacing and word emphasis based on the font/design of the text. So the idea is that you read the kid the book and they're asleep long before it's over. Assuming they're old enough to get it and follow along.
It might be worth a try. Presumably this requires that he want to/be willing to fall asleep.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:40 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is getting toward the age where we started (at pediatrician's brilliant suggestion) instituting this after bedtime routine:
- some not-too-extended version of the desired standard bed-down routine you have now, with read aloud and so on
- okay! time for bed! you'll get fifteen minutes with the lights on to look at books or do what you like in here as long as it's quiet, then fifteen minutes with the lights off.
- okay! lights off! you have to try to rest in bed, but if you're still awake after fifteen minutes of quiet, you can have the lights on again.
- repeat.
Worked surprisingly well! She may not have fallen asleep a lot earlier, but it certainly wasn't later than the incredible stretched out MORE MORE MORE had been, and it was much, much more tranquil. New baby at the same time does complicate the picture, but it might be worth a try, anyway.
posted by redfoxtail at 7:49 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
- some not-too-extended version of the desired standard bed-down routine you have now, with read aloud and so on
- okay! time for bed! you'll get fifteen minutes with the lights on to look at books or do what you like in here as long as it's quiet, then fifteen minutes with the lights off.
- okay! lights off! you have to try to rest in bed, but if you're still awake after fifteen minutes of quiet, you can have the lights on again.
- repeat.
Worked surprisingly well! She may not have fallen asleep a lot earlier, but it certainly wasn't later than the incredible stretched out MORE MORE MORE had been, and it was much, much more tranquil. New baby at the same time does complicate the picture, but it might be worth a try, anyway.
posted by redfoxtail at 7:49 PM on January 31, 2018 [6 favorites]
You've been giving in to way too much and for way too long. He's learned that stalling works.
The way to never deal with this nonsense is to never let it get started in the first place. Pajamas, teeth, potty and a (small) drink are part of the bedtime routine, and ONE story, along with a reasonable quantity of goodnight loves. Never any more, never any other excuses.
When you've already created this problem, guess what? The answer is the same - a hard reset back to minimal. And you deal, quietly and calmly, with the tantrums for a few nights or even a couple of weeks until the behavior is reset.
And by quietly and calmly, yes, exactly that. Replace child in bed, repeat that it's bedtime, and sit there (preferably on a separate chair or the floor) and enforce. Child gets out of bed, quietly and calmly return them. And wait. Let them wear themselves out.
Since you have a smaller child that they've learned the power and value of waking, well - that means it's going to be a little more drama and a little more stress for you to undo the pattern already taught. The little one's bedtime will either need to be later (or Unsleepy's bedtime earlier), or you'll have to tolerate them being awoken.
If you don't reset this behavior while they're this age - and change the permissiveness that led you in this direction - it's going to continue to worsen. While you're at it, examine the rest of your daily life for similar actions that are leading in a direction you don't want - and start taking steps to change them now.
posted by stormyteal at 7:54 PM on January 31, 2018 [32 favorites]
The way to never deal with this nonsense is to never let it get started in the first place. Pajamas, teeth, potty and a (small) drink are part of the bedtime routine, and ONE story, along with a reasonable quantity of goodnight loves. Never any more, never any other excuses.
When you've already created this problem, guess what? The answer is the same - a hard reset back to minimal. And you deal, quietly and calmly, with the tantrums for a few nights or even a couple of weeks until the behavior is reset.
And by quietly and calmly, yes, exactly that. Replace child in bed, repeat that it's bedtime, and sit there (preferably on a separate chair or the floor) and enforce. Child gets out of bed, quietly and calmly return them. And wait. Let them wear themselves out.
Since you have a smaller child that they've learned the power and value of waking, well - that means it's going to be a little more drama and a little more stress for you to undo the pattern already taught. The little one's bedtime will either need to be later (or Unsleepy's bedtime earlier), or you'll have to tolerate them being awoken.
If you don't reset this behavior while they're this age - and change the permissiveness that led you in this direction - it's going to continue to worsen. While you're at it, examine the rest of your daily life for similar actions that are leading in a direction you don't want - and start taking steps to change them now.
posted by stormyteal at 7:54 PM on January 31, 2018 [32 favorites]
Try a star chart, which is like bribery but not. Talk to him about bedtime and what happens before bed and what happens when that is done, which is that he stays in his room with the nightlight on (or the 15/15/15/15 described above). Let him contribute to the routine and put it on a poster on his wall, illustrated maybe. Then make a BIG fuss about a STAR CHART with HIS NAME ON IT where every night that he follows the new routine, he gets a star. After X stars he gets something amazing. Make sure getting that star in the morning is BIG FUSS MORNING.
Then when he violates the star chart plan, it's zombie walk. He gets up, you walk him/put him back to bed with one word: bedtime. No interaction. No pleading or discussing. The whole idea here is to make it as boring as humanly possible. If you can start this on a night when you have a partner at home this is best, child gets random person zombie walk. Nothing interesting. It may be 50 or 100 times the first night. It will take a few nights.
During that time if there is screaming, yes, it's horrible, this is the price.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:16 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
Then when he violates the star chart plan, it's zombie walk. He gets up, you walk him/put him back to bed with one word: bedtime. No interaction. No pleading or discussing. The whole idea here is to make it as boring as humanly possible. If you can start this on a night when you have a partner at home this is best, child gets random person zombie walk. Nothing interesting. It may be 50 or 100 times the first night. It will take a few nights.
During that time if there is screaming, yes, it's horrible, this is the price.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:16 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
Does he nap? This sounds a lot like what we went through before we let our daughter drop her nap. Bedtime suddenly got a LOT easier.
posted by devinemissk at 8:42 PM on January 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by devinemissk at 8:42 PM on January 31, 2018 [4 favorites]
The Magical Sleepy Corner worked pretty well for me and my spirited son.
Be prepared for it to be a fight the first few times. It was for my son. But once he figured out I was serious and committed, he took to it pretty well and soon figured out that laying in bed is superior to standing in a corner.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:05 PM on January 31, 2018
Be prepared for it to be a fight the first few times. It was for my son. But once he figured out I was serious and committed, he took to it pretty well and soon figured out that laying in bed is superior to standing in a corner.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:05 PM on January 31, 2018
More exercise- get him good and tired.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 9:08 PM on January 31, 2018
posted by pseudostrabismus at 9:08 PM on January 31, 2018
My child was a lot like yours. What eventually helped me was talking to them about why they hate bedtime. Have you actually talked to your kid and asked why they hate bedtime so much? Are they afraid of missing out on fun things happening? Do they want to be with you? Do they get bored? Do they, like my child, hate the dark and the quiet and find it panic inducing rather than restful? 3.5 is young enough to express some of this, especially if you ask questions and then let them ramble back at you, and they're all solvable problems.
I know that some people will disagree with this, but my whole entire life changed when I gave my four year old a crappy laptop and, at bedtime every night brought up a youtube playlist of aquarium videos with soothing music. That was it--that was the big trick. We went from bedtime breakdowns and waking up (and waking me up) half a dozen times a night to a relatively easy bedtime and sleeping through the night. They had something to do that felt enjoyable, and there was enough light and sound that they felt safe, and it meant that we quickly reached a point where, if they really did have a bad dream or an upset stomach or whatever, I'd trust that they were telling the truth and respond more appropriately.
posted by mishafletch at 9:11 PM on January 31, 2018 [10 favorites]
I know that some people will disagree with this, but my whole entire life changed when I gave my four year old a crappy laptop and, at bedtime every night brought up a youtube playlist of aquarium videos with soothing music. That was it--that was the big trick. We went from bedtime breakdowns and waking up (and waking me up) half a dozen times a night to a relatively easy bedtime and sleeping through the night. They had something to do that felt enjoyable, and there was enough light and sound that they felt safe, and it meant that we quickly reached a point where, if they really did have a bad dream or an upset stomach or whatever, I'd trust that they were telling the truth and respond more appropriately.
posted by mishafletch at 9:11 PM on January 31, 2018 [10 favorites]
Yes, provide him with tools to soothe himself. As a kid, I was constantly wired. Sometimes anxious, sometimes excited - just overly awake to everything (thoughts, emotions, sounds, shadows, etc). I'd read my babysitters to sleep and then lie awake for ages (going over the day, anticipating the next, fearing nightmares that sometimes happened... If there's anything scary at night, help him feel safe, for sure.) I bet I'd have loved an aquarium video, what a clever trick. (May give it a try now, still struggling.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:23 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:23 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think a lot of children, even those with an established routine start experimenting with bedtime rebellion at this age. Our solution was exhausting, depressing consistency. For what felt like forever, bed time became a ritual of following the same routine, him getting up and coming downstairs, me picking him up without talking, putting him to bed and then going downstairs again. This was not fun, and felt like it would never end, but by being consistently boring it did work for us, and we were very clear on what was going to happen and why.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 10:02 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Cannon Fodder at 10:02 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yes, the no-eye-contact no-talking straight back to bed repeatedly is the way. It can take a while, be ready for it to be several hours, particularly if you have ever "given in" in the past. You have to be ready and determined to do it until he gives up trying. If you ever fail then you've just taught him how long he needs to complain for to get his way and fixing it in future will take that much longer.
Generally, one marathon session is enough to get the message across. Future issues should then be very minor as he'll know first time you march him back to bed that you're willing to do it forever.
posted by tillsbury at 10:20 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
Generally, one marathon session is enough to get the message across. Future issues should then be very minor as he'll know first time you march him back to bed that you're willing to do it forever.
posted by tillsbury at 10:20 PM on January 31, 2018 [1 favorite]
to angrily threatening to take away his favourite blanket for the night.
Just . . . don't do this. 3-4 year olds are filled with nighttime anxieties and there are some things that need to be off the table as punishments. Removing comfort objects is one of them. My 4 year old sleeps in bed with me (whatever, it works for us) and I can imagine that a threat like taking away her teddy bear would quickly ramp her up to inconsolable even with me beside her all night.
Drop the nap if you haven't already. If your child is good at listening to stories, consider getting a longer chapter book rather than picture books. I've been reading my kid chapters of Paddington Bear lately, one chapter a night. Inevitably, she falls asleep halfway through. It eliminates the "one more story" problem entirely.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:46 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
Just . . . don't do this. 3-4 year olds are filled with nighttime anxieties and there are some things that need to be off the table as punishments. Removing comfort objects is one of them. My 4 year old sleeps in bed with me (whatever, it works for us) and I can imagine that a threat like taking away her teddy bear would quickly ramp her up to inconsolable even with me beside her all night.
Drop the nap if you haven't already. If your child is good at listening to stories, consider getting a longer chapter book rather than picture books. I've been reading my kid chapters of Paddington Bear lately, one chapter a night. Inevitably, she falls asleep halfway through. It eliminates the "one more story" problem entirely.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:46 PM on January 31, 2018 [7 favorites]
hmmm...have you talked to him about it during a quiet, cuddly time and solicited his ideas on what the problem is and how to solve the problem?
he‘s young but with my kid that would have worked ( or at least made us team up )
posted by Omnomnom at 11:23 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
he‘s young but with my kid that would have worked ( or at least made us team up )
posted by Omnomnom at 11:23 PM on January 31, 2018 [2 favorites]
Similar circumstances to yours a year or so ago. My tips would be, first, make sure the kid gets some one on one time with you and your undivided attention during the day, even 10 minutes help. A little bit of children’s video helps our strong-willed, resistant to rewards, riled up by being told what to do, impossible to keep in bed unless out of his own will kind of kid to hold still for long enough that the body gets to wind down a bit. We also found it was worse when overtired. A few days of a tiny, tiny dose of melatonin (much less than it says on the packaging, just a fraction of it is enough) both helps them wind down enough to sleep and set the tone for what happens at bedtime. Then, when the baby is older, there’s the new adventure of the kids keeping each other up with great ideas for where to climb next!
posted by meijusa at 1:04 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by meijusa at 1:04 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
When I was a little one, I used to do this because I think I was actually scared of the dark. A night light helped, although I definitely tried to keep my parents (or babysitter) hanging out with me as long as possible so I wasn't alone. It's funny how reading this question reminded me of that -- I must've been so annoying to my parents.
posted by AppleTurnover at 2:07 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by AppleTurnover at 2:07 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: 1.5 hours after bedtime? Man, this kid has got you trained.
Strong willed or not, he's 3.5 and he's not the boss. I'm a teacher and while I am not saying this is future you, I cannot tell you how often I meet with parents of really badly behaved teenagers who will say their child has always been strong-willed. Teachers always want to respond, "Okay sure; but didn't anyone tell you that you're older and the actual grownup here? You get to make the rules," but we never say that and instead realize this is why that kid is out of control.
Granted, I am painting a rather dire situation for you, but I'm trying to say that when a parent says there's this argh situation and their kid is strong willed and does not respond to incentives, then that parent is doing something wrong. And that's fine--we all do things wrong and need a course correction.
And now I'm going to tell you one of the greatest bedtimes hacks of all time which involves faking them out while letting them think they're in control and ALSO teaching them that following the rules is awesome:
1. Talk to the kid about creating a bedtime routine they're onboard with. Bath, jammies, etc., light out.
2. Make a little sticker chart with checks for each part of the routine with one extra column for the MAGICAL TEN MORE MINUTES column.
3. Yes, you have to make a chart because everyone loves a visual but also, kids really cannot conceptualize time but they can see tasks and checklists. (also, save this chart and show it to them when they're 21 and you'll really crack up laughing)
4. When your kid follows the routine they think they've created and check off every little item, then they get the magical 10 extra minutes. Those 10 minutes should be some amazing book you read to them with cool voices if possible, or a fun audiobook--something that involves them listening. In early days, do not make a weekly incentive--your kid needs some immediate gratification to do the right thing.
5. They don't want to follow this, you can say that's a bummer because you really want to see what happens next in the story, but it's their choice. Kids generally shift after hearing that.
6. They still don't follow the routine, then it's lights out, you can try again tomorrow night, goodnight, see you in the morning, lots of kisses and the white noise machine for the baby.
Try this--your kid will think they have a ton of control, they'll learn that following an expectation actually gets them super amazing things and also, not following that plan they devised actually kind of sucks and that they can do this thing.
angrily threatening to take away his favourite blanket for the night
Ignore my suggestions if you'd like, but stop doing this.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:04 AM on February 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
Strong willed or not, he's 3.5 and he's not the boss. I'm a teacher and while I am not saying this is future you, I cannot tell you how often I meet with parents of really badly behaved teenagers who will say their child has always been strong-willed. Teachers always want to respond, "Okay sure; but didn't anyone tell you that you're older and the actual grownup here? You get to make the rules," but we never say that and instead realize this is why that kid is out of control.
Granted, I am painting a rather dire situation for you, but I'm trying to say that when a parent says there's this argh situation and their kid is strong willed and does not respond to incentives, then that parent is doing something wrong. And that's fine--we all do things wrong and need a course correction.
And now I'm going to tell you one of the greatest bedtimes hacks of all time which involves faking them out while letting them think they're in control and ALSO teaching them that following the rules is awesome:
1. Talk to the kid about creating a bedtime routine they're onboard with. Bath, jammies, etc., light out.
2. Make a little sticker chart with checks for each part of the routine with one extra column for the MAGICAL TEN MORE MINUTES column.
3. Yes, you have to make a chart because everyone loves a visual but also, kids really cannot conceptualize time but they can see tasks and checklists. (also, save this chart and show it to them when they're 21 and you'll really crack up laughing)
4. When your kid follows the routine they think they've created and check off every little item, then they get the magical 10 extra minutes. Those 10 minutes should be some amazing book you read to them with cool voices if possible, or a fun audiobook--something that involves them listening. In early days, do not make a weekly incentive--your kid needs some immediate gratification to do the right thing.
5. They don't want to follow this, you can say that's a bummer because you really want to see what happens next in the story, but it's their choice. Kids generally shift after hearing that.
6. They still don't follow the routine, then it's lights out, you can try again tomorrow night, goodnight, see you in the morning, lots of kisses and the white noise machine for the baby.
Try this--your kid will think they have a ton of control, they'll learn that following an expectation actually gets them super amazing things and also, not following that plan they devised actually kind of sucks and that they can do this thing.
angrily threatening to take away his favourite blanket for the night
Ignore my suggestions if you'd like, but stop doing this.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:04 AM on February 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
I vividly remembered being a toddler with insomnia when it struck my son so after the reading I would get in bed with him in the dark and tell him things I remembered about being his age and the more I told him the more I remembered and it never got old.
It was enlightening for both of us and I was surprised at the detail I could recall and also by how he felt understood enough to start communicating with me on a whole new level. He was very interested in my accounts of how my thinking about life changed as I got older.
Long soft songs were good too. Al Stewart's Year of the Cat, Gerry Rafferty's Baker Street, some Pink Floyd. "Whatcha think that was about?
There were no more tantrums if I was around. He understood that I was once a 3 year old boy and that I understood him. The deep conversations put him to sleep. Sometimes me too and I'd wake up a few hours later with him in the crook of my arm and extract myself. Sometimes I slept all night and he'd wake up and pick things up right where they'd left off.
I think this made a huge impact on his becoming who he is now at 11. He has absolute faith in me. Never, really never have I had to punish or discipline him since. He listens because he trusts me to help interpret his experience. He'll answer anything I ask him and vice versa. He gets that he will change and if you can get through about that everything is easier.
Carefully I say his mom sucked at this.
The most productive weeks were the three we spent discussing epiphanies. Kids have them all the time and don't know what the hell is happening just that everything seems different and waah!
posted by Mr. Yuck at 3:23 AM on February 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
It was enlightening for both of us and I was surprised at the detail I could recall and also by how he felt understood enough to start communicating with me on a whole new level. He was very interested in my accounts of how my thinking about life changed as I got older.
Long soft songs were good too. Al Stewart's Year of the Cat, Gerry Rafferty's Baker Street, some Pink Floyd. "Whatcha think that was about?
There were no more tantrums if I was around. He understood that I was once a 3 year old boy and that I understood him. The deep conversations put him to sleep. Sometimes me too and I'd wake up a few hours later with him in the crook of my arm and extract myself. Sometimes I slept all night and he'd wake up and pick things up right where they'd left off.
I think this made a huge impact on his becoming who he is now at 11. He has absolute faith in me. Never, really never have I had to punish or discipline him since. He listens because he trusts me to help interpret his experience. He'll answer anything I ask him and vice versa. He gets that he will change and if you can get through about that everything is easier.
Carefully I say his mom sucked at this.
The most productive weeks were the three we spent discussing epiphanies. Kids have them all the time and don't know what the hell is happening just that everything seems different and waah!
posted by Mr. Yuck at 3:23 AM on February 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
I’m there with you. Our kid’s the same age and generally good about bedtime, but has recently been trying all sorts of tricks to stall/get out, and we have to constantly adapt. Lately he’s been sleeping with a bowl because he “has to throw up,” to give you an idea.
What’s generally worked for us is having a set bedtime routine that anticipates every possible stalling strategy (one last drink of water, one trip to the potty, one good-night to the non-tucking-in parent) with rules and limits that are clearly communicated to the kid (this is your last chance for water, you get two shorter stories or one longer one and that’s it). If he has a problem after lights out, we’ll go to him the first time, but afterwards it’s “I need you to stay in bed for ten minutes” and if he carries on we tell him we’ll be with him when ten minutes is up. We borrowed this idea from Ferber sleep training and it seems to still work okay.
It’s really hard not to get annoyed when a kid resists bedtime and kicks up a fuss, and it’s hard not to worry that this is the one night he’s not crying wolf. You sort of have to pretend you’re a rules robot; you’re just here to calmly enforce the rule being broken, and it’s not your job to hear appeals. (I have to regularly remind myself that tantrums mean the kid’s already lost whatever the fight is, and even when it’s an inconsequential thing that I could easily change it does no good to give in. And I feel like an asshole insisting on the water cup that is suddenly, unexpectedly wrong, but when we get to the tantrum point it’s no longer about the cup but the tantrum itself.)
Weirdly, transitioning from a crib to a big-kid bed has helped some; he hasn’t done the “put the blankets back on me!” thing in a while because he can do it himself like a big kid. Granting more big-kid responsibility (not just at bedtime, but in general) is a strong motivator for kids his age and they’ll often take that responsibility seriously. Especially when there’s a new baby.
I’ve heard some parents swear by having one “get out of bed free” card for emergency water, potty trips, etc. Might be worth a try.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:11 AM on February 1, 2018
What’s generally worked for us is having a set bedtime routine that anticipates every possible stalling strategy (one last drink of water, one trip to the potty, one good-night to the non-tucking-in parent) with rules and limits that are clearly communicated to the kid (this is your last chance for water, you get two shorter stories or one longer one and that’s it). If he has a problem after lights out, we’ll go to him the first time, but afterwards it’s “I need you to stay in bed for ten minutes” and if he carries on we tell him we’ll be with him when ten minutes is up. We borrowed this idea from Ferber sleep training and it seems to still work okay.
It’s really hard not to get annoyed when a kid resists bedtime and kicks up a fuss, and it’s hard not to worry that this is the one night he’s not crying wolf. You sort of have to pretend you’re a rules robot; you’re just here to calmly enforce the rule being broken, and it’s not your job to hear appeals. (I have to regularly remind myself that tantrums mean the kid’s already lost whatever the fight is, and even when it’s an inconsequential thing that I could easily change it does no good to give in. And I feel like an asshole insisting on the water cup that is suddenly, unexpectedly wrong, but when we get to the tantrum point it’s no longer about the cup but the tantrum itself.)
Weirdly, transitioning from a crib to a big-kid bed has helped some; he hasn’t done the “put the blankets back on me!” thing in a while because he can do it himself like a big kid. Granting more big-kid responsibility (not just at bedtime, but in general) is a strong motivator for kids his age and they’ll often take that responsibility seriously. Especially when there’s a new baby.
I’ve heard some parents swear by having one “get out of bed free” card for emergency water, potty trips, etc. Might be worth a try.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:11 AM on February 1, 2018
To echo others: if you have not already dropped the nap, drop the nap. Mine behaved just like this at the stage where she was still in the habit of napping but out of the need.
Other things you could try
- the Supernanny 'repeat 'it's bedtime' and walk back to bed in silence, however many times it takes' approach; I know people this has worked really well for, although it took hours the first few nights;
- move bedtime later, not 1.5 hours later but enough of a chunk later that he's feeling different to how he usually does
- paradoxically, move bedtime earlier if you're hitting the manic "I have DEFEATED SLEEP!" stage of tiredness; some kids definitely have a window outside which bedtime is hell
- change stuff up - like moving the furniture round or new bedclothes or new nightlight, whatever will make bedtime seem a bit 'different'. Maybe my imagination but this seemed to help with us.
- what my parents did with me was to put an audio story on and say I could listen to that as long as a) lights were out and b) I stayed in bed. This seemed to work out and I would usually fall asleep to it eventually.
Also, I know you asked for advice on fixing bedtime and not on how to stay sane yourselves while fixing bedtime, but I have been through this and I know the misery, so: be kind to yourselves as well. Appreciate that he is probably feeling strong feelings w/r/t new baby and is not at least deliberately trying to drive you to the brink of madness, appreciate that it is a stage and like all stages it will pass. And do not blame yourself, not only because this approach is most likely to lead to getting angry and reacting in unconstructive ways (like snapping threats and hissing "WHYYYY won't you just SLEEEEEEEEEEP!"), but also because if you're spending a while sitting there in the dark anyway then it's a very easy time for dark thoughts about what a shit parent you are to brew., and to lose all proportion about that. This is a hard enough stage without adding self-flagellation to the mix. Be kind to yourself, and it'll be easier to respond in a kind and consistent way with him.
(if it helps - as mentioned above, I was like this for YEARS as a child to the point where my parents, who had a very authoritarian parenting style, still mutter darkly about it. I grew out of it and did not grow into a roving entitled teenage delinquent!)
posted by Catseye at 4:24 AM on February 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Other things you could try
- the Supernanny 'repeat 'it's bedtime' and walk back to bed in silence, however many times it takes' approach; I know people this has worked really well for, although it took hours the first few nights;
- move bedtime later, not 1.5 hours later but enough of a chunk later that he's feeling different to how he usually does
- paradoxically, move bedtime earlier if you're hitting the manic "I have DEFEATED SLEEP!" stage of tiredness; some kids definitely have a window outside which bedtime is hell
- change stuff up - like moving the furniture round or new bedclothes or new nightlight, whatever will make bedtime seem a bit 'different'. Maybe my imagination but this seemed to help with us.
- what my parents did with me was to put an audio story on and say I could listen to that as long as a) lights were out and b) I stayed in bed. This seemed to work out and I would usually fall asleep to it eventually.
Also, I know you asked for advice on fixing bedtime and not on how to stay sane yourselves while fixing bedtime, but I have been through this and I know the misery, so: be kind to yourselves as well. Appreciate that he is probably feeling strong feelings w/r/t new baby and is not at least deliberately trying to drive you to the brink of madness, appreciate that it is a stage and like all stages it will pass. And do not blame yourself, not only because this approach is most likely to lead to getting angry and reacting in unconstructive ways (like snapping threats and hissing "WHYYYY won't you just SLEEEEEEEEEEP!"), but also because if you're spending a while sitting there in the dark anyway then it's a very easy time for dark thoughts about what a shit parent you are to brew., and to lose all proportion about that. This is a hard enough stage without adding self-flagellation to the mix. Be kind to yourself, and it'll be easier to respond in a kind and consistent way with him.
(if it helps - as mentioned above, I was like this for YEARS as a child to the point where my parents, who had a very authoritarian parenting style, still mutter darkly about it. I grew out of it and did not grow into a roving entitled teenage delinquent!)
posted by Catseye at 4:24 AM on February 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh, also, unless you’re into cosleeping I’d recommend avoiding any sort of routine that has a parent in the room/bed as the kid’s falling asleep. It may help in the short run, but it only kicks the problem down the line. I’ve heard tales of woe from a lot of parents who fell into a ritual like this during infanthood/toddlerhood and now can’t get their preschooler to fall asleep without them.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:28 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:28 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yeah, it’s provably the nap. I wouldn’t be so quick to attribute this to baby-change, 3.5 to 4 is prime bedtime disruption age. They have agency! They figure it they don’t have to do what you ask them to do!
Our almost four year old is a NIGHTMARE at bedtime right now, you bring her back to her room and she just calmly gets up and walks back to our room again and starts asking for things. Lather rinse repeat from 8 (start of solid and short bedtime routine) to almost 10 these days.
She’s still napping at preschool (because most kids are napping) and I’m pretty sure she’s just not tired at bedtime. She has a two year old brother who thankfully sleeps through any tantrums, but it has completely ruined our evenings.
So. Try taking away the nap.
posted by lydhre at 4:31 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Our almost four year old is a NIGHTMARE at bedtime right now, you bring her back to her room and she just calmly gets up and walks back to our room again and starts asking for things. Lather rinse repeat from 8 (start of solid and short bedtime routine) to almost 10 these days.
She’s still napping at preschool (because most kids are napping) and I’m pretty sure she’s just not tired at bedtime. She has a two year old brother who thankfully sleeps through any tantrums, but it has completely ruined our evenings.
So. Try taking away the nap.
posted by lydhre at 4:31 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow! Thanks for all the great responses. I will read carefully. Yes he does still nap, and bedtime is supposed to be 7:45 but realistically not usually till after 8. Thanks all
posted by leslievictoria at 4:56 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by leslievictoria at 4:56 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I feel like I link this all the time, but this problem is really typical with kids who have outgrown their need to nap. This slate article is what got me to drop the naps in my kid when she was 20 months old, and it took bedtime from more than an hour to minutes when we did.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:29 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:29 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
That's rough. I had the same situation. My now 15 year-old still has trouble falling asleep and doesn't need as much sleep as other kids (though teen years! so more than he thinks). I wish I had kept cooler through the horribleness of not being able to get the 3 year-old to sleep when the breastfeeding baby was being woken up by every noise and I was single parenting and desperate for a few minutes of time to myself and sleep. It was a phase that changed - for better or worse - fairly quickly. Their sleep needs change so much and so fast. Not that you need more ideas - did anyone suggest music or a short audio book? At least you wouldn't have to be involved and it would be quiet (earbuds if necessary). Maybe he needs less sleep? I used to also take my 3 year old to the mall in the winter to run up and down the halls to wear him out so he was tired and gods forbid that he nap or he was up past 11 and I would drive them both around singing about the moon until they fell asleep. Anyway, you aren't alone. Good luck.
posted by RoadScholar at 5:31 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by RoadScholar at 5:31 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: We solved this with "timer time" as outlined in Weissbluth's sleep book (it's a very common problem.) It works like this:
1. Extremely consistent bedtime routine. Ours was bath, pajamas, teeth, bed. At exactly the same time.
2. Once in bed: start a timer (we used our phone, with a gentle chime at the end.) Set it for whatever you think will work. We used ten minutes. Explain to kid that when timer goes off, you will be leaving room, lights out, they stay in bed and that is it. (They will laugh at you silently, but you're serious this time.)
3. They choose what to do with the timer time. We mostly did reading, but sometimes songs, backrubs, made-up stories. No screens, because those are very bad for sleep hygiene. If your kid is of the type that will ask for water later, give them a little water now. Not so much that they'll be up peeing.
4. When the timer rings (again, gentle tone) you follow through. You leave the room. If kid screams (mine did) then they scream. You do not go back in there. If they get up, you DO NOT ENGAGE - that is the biggest thing. You don't talk to them (beyond reminding them that it's bedtime), you don't yell. You physically pick them up and put them back in bed if necessary.
5. Repeat if necessary. Our first night with this was very rough, and on the second night she was so disgusted she didn't even want us to have bedtime fun, but by the third we settled into a happy routine.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:58 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
1. Extremely consistent bedtime routine. Ours was bath, pajamas, teeth, bed. At exactly the same time.
2. Once in bed: start a timer (we used our phone, with a gentle chime at the end.) Set it for whatever you think will work. We used ten minutes. Explain to kid that when timer goes off, you will be leaving room, lights out, they stay in bed and that is it. (They will laugh at you silently, but you're serious this time.)
3. They choose what to do with the timer time. We mostly did reading, but sometimes songs, backrubs, made-up stories. No screens, because those are very bad for sleep hygiene. If your kid is of the type that will ask for water later, give them a little water now. Not so much that they'll be up peeing.
4. When the timer rings (again, gentle tone) you follow through. You leave the room. If kid screams (mine did) then they scream. You do not go back in there. If they get up, you DO NOT ENGAGE - that is the biggest thing. You don't talk to them (beyond reminding them that it's bedtime), you don't yell. You physically pick them up and put them back in bed if necessary.
5. Repeat if necessary. Our first night with this was very rough, and on the second night she was so disgusted she didn't even want us to have bedtime fun, but by the third we settled into a happy routine.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:58 AM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
We had luck with, get some painters' tape, and put one strip on the floor where the door is halfway closed, and one where it's 3/4 closed. Tell kiddo, "You can go to sleep with the door open. If you call me back up (for water, potty, another story, whatever), I'll close the door halfway, to this mark. The second time, I'll close it to this mark. The third time, I'll close the door all the way and I won't come up anymore." It gives him the ability to call you and get those visits, but it sets a hard limit on them and provides a visual reminder (that is also an incentive, since many little kids prefer to have the door open). It also gives him control, in that he can decide if something's important enough to use up one of his three.
The first couple of nights, be prepared for shouting and stomping.
On the advice of our pediatrician, we did try melatonin gummies with our child who just could. not. fall. asleep, no matter how awesome our bedtime parenting was, and it changed our lives. I'm always hesitant to mention it because there's so much woo out there and giving kids medicine to sleep is a little sketchy, but if dealing with it from a behavioral perspective doesn't help, it's worth having a conversation with your pediatrician about it. Most kid bedtime stuff is developmental or behavioral, but some small percentage of kids do have legit insomnia issues. Since sleep is so important for health and development in kids, your pede will have some ideas if you exhaust all of the behavioral interventions and still nothing is working.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:02 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
The first couple of nights, be prepared for shouting and stomping.
On the advice of our pediatrician, we did try melatonin gummies with our child who just could. not. fall. asleep, no matter how awesome our bedtime parenting was, and it changed our lives. I'm always hesitant to mention it because there's so much woo out there and giving kids medicine to sleep is a little sketchy, but if dealing with it from a behavioral perspective doesn't help, it's worth having a conversation with your pediatrician about it. Most kid bedtime stuff is developmental or behavioral, but some small percentage of kids do have legit insomnia issues. Since sleep is so important for health and development in kids, your pede will have some ideas if you exhaust all of the behavioral interventions and still nothing is working.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:02 AM on February 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow, this is a great collection of ideas. I will probably have to refer back to this a few times for both the ideas/resource names and the support (which means a lot, thanks). I think I will start with the timer idea. I like it because it's non-negotiable. Will keep me calm and feeling fair. I also like the 10 more minutes checklist, and will try to track down some of those books that were recommended. I feel encouraged and refreshed enough to attack this problem. Thanks all!!
posted by leslievictoria at 6:39 PM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by leslievictoria at 6:39 PM on February 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
> bedtime is supposed to be 7:45 but realistically not usually till after 8
If your family schedule permits it, I'd move it earlier. Aim for 7:00.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:59 AM on February 3, 2018
If your family schedule permits it, I'd move it earlier. Aim for 7:00.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:59 AM on February 3, 2018
Response by poster: Just an update for anyone who checks this - so far things are improving. A lot. Kid gets 10 mins of book time and then lights out. We do exactly 5 mins of snuggle and chitchat, and then when the timer rings, I leave. There is still protesting, and bedtime is still later than I would like, but there are no hysterics or drama. I leave with no guilt and no possibility of negotiation. It's great. Will still aim for earlier bedtime. Thanks all! .
posted by leslievictoria at 6:30 PM on February 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by leslievictoria at 6:30 PM on February 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 7:22 PM on January 31, 2018