What if I really WAS to blame for getting sexually assaulted?
January 26, 2018 1:28 PM Subscribe
For years I either failed to set any boundaries, or I trained him to consider them porous.
We got together young. We are both from a sexually repressive Asian culture, no dating allowed, no sex ed to speak of, let alone consent education. We were each other's first ever sexual partners. We sneaked around for a few years - long distance relationship, but meeting up once or twice a year for a few weeks - and then my parents found out and made us get married and I moved across the world to the US on a dependent visa. We wanted to get married, we were happy about it, but I was only 22. Looking back, that's a bit unnerving.
We were married for 12 years. He was a shit husband, maybe even abusive. He'd yell at me for hours if I bought a cup of coffee without permission. He'd stop talking to me for days if I put away the dishes "wrong". He basically flipped from "fun boyfriend" to "paternalistic taskmaster" in the time it took for the ink to dry on our marriage certificate. I didn't fucking know WHAT to think or do. Of course he wasn't that way 100% of the time. Our old spark remained, we really got each other on a level that I haven't ever experienced with anyone else, we had the best conversations... But my life just got smaller and smaller in the effort to keep him from blowing his lid.
He was never physically violent, mind. Unless you count rape.
That's what you call it, right, when people keep having sex with someone who's repeatedly saying "no" and "stop" and crying? That happened once. It was the last straw for me. It's what made me leave him.
But now, a year after, I am beginning to think I trained him to do that to me. Let me show you what I mean, working backwards through time:
- when he eventually stopped raping me that one final time when I *did* set firm, insistent, non-porous boundaries, I APOLOGIZED to him for ruining the sex. That's what came out of my mouth. He hugged me and comforted me and said, "Hey it's okay, don't worry about it."
- for years I'd say no to a certain kind of sex that I absolutely hate, but then "be persuaded" into having it anyway. I'd explain to him how much I hated it, but then I'd give in when he continued to ask and said things like, "Oh come on, I promise you'll like it, I'll make it good for you," etc. Afterwards, he'd cuddle and ask, "Now wasn't that good?" and I'd say, "Ehhh, not really" instead of "WTF I FUCKING HATE THIS THING."
- sometimes when he was done with that particular sex thing, I'd be shaking, and he'd tell me, "See, you're having an orgasm without knowing it." It used to blow my mind. I'd say "No," and he'd argue with me about it. And I gave up contradicting him after a couple of times. It was the most bizarre thing and it made me feel crazy and apoplectic to have to argue about it. I'd roll my eyes instead. I never lost my temper at him like I probably should have.
- which brings us to his temper. He'd stop talking to me for days and then want to make up by having sex. I'd be crying in relief that he was talking to me again, and he'd say, "You're turning me on, you look so hot when you cry." There were times when I scoffed and expressed my outrage at that. This usually led to accusations that I was unforgiving, wanted to prolong the fight, then another argument, another freezeout. Mostly I just gave in and had the sex. I pretended to enjoy it, even, to get it over with.
Do you see what I mean? I lied and lied and lied, I hid my true reactions from him, and I trained him to treat me like that. He isn't really to blame for that "rape." I literally asked for it.
------
I mean, I get how crazy this sounds, alright? I've called myself a feminist for twenty years. I know I'm not supposed to blame myself. But that's just theory isn't it. He's truly well intentioned, he never thought he was doing anything that I didn't want, and it IS my fault that he came to believe that my saying no doesn't mean shit.
It's eating me up, this thing. Please help me make sense of it.
We got together young. We are both from a sexually repressive Asian culture, no dating allowed, no sex ed to speak of, let alone consent education. We were each other's first ever sexual partners. We sneaked around for a few years - long distance relationship, but meeting up once or twice a year for a few weeks - and then my parents found out and made us get married and I moved across the world to the US on a dependent visa. We wanted to get married, we were happy about it, but I was only 22. Looking back, that's a bit unnerving.
We were married for 12 years. He was a shit husband, maybe even abusive. He'd yell at me for hours if I bought a cup of coffee without permission. He'd stop talking to me for days if I put away the dishes "wrong". He basically flipped from "fun boyfriend" to "paternalistic taskmaster" in the time it took for the ink to dry on our marriage certificate. I didn't fucking know WHAT to think or do. Of course he wasn't that way 100% of the time. Our old spark remained, we really got each other on a level that I haven't ever experienced with anyone else, we had the best conversations... But my life just got smaller and smaller in the effort to keep him from blowing his lid.
He was never physically violent, mind. Unless you count rape.
That's what you call it, right, when people keep having sex with someone who's repeatedly saying "no" and "stop" and crying? That happened once. It was the last straw for me. It's what made me leave him.
But now, a year after, I am beginning to think I trained him to do that to me. Let me show you what I mean, working backwards through time:
- when he eventually stopped raping me that one final time when I *did* set firm, insistent, non-porous boundaries, I APOLOGIZED to him for ruining the sex. That's what came out of my mouth. He hugged me and comforted me and said, "Hey it's okay, don't worry about it."
- for years I'd say no to a certain kind of sex that I absolutely hate, but then "be persuaded" into having it anyway. I'd explain to him how much I hated it, but then I'd give in when he continued to ask and said things like, "Oh come on, I promise you'll like it, I'll make it good for you," etc. Afterwards, he'd cuddle and ask, "Now wasn't that good?" and I'd say, "Ehhh, not really" instead of "WTF I FUCKING HATE THIS THING."
- sometimes when he was done with that particular sex thing, I'd be shaking, and he'd tell me, "See, you're having an orgasm without knowing it." It used to blow my mind. I'd say "No," and he'd argue with me about it. And I gave up contradicting him after a couple of times. It was the most bizarre thing and it made me feel crazy and apoplectic to have to argue about it. I'd roll my eyes instead. I never lost my temper at him like I probably should have.
- which brings us to his temper. He'd stop talking to me for days and then want to make up by having sex. I'd be crying in relief that he was talking to me again, and he'd say, "You're turning me on, you look so hot when you cry." There were times when I scoffed and expressed my outrage at that. This usually led to accusations that I was unforgiving, wanted to prolong the fight, then another argument, another freezeout. Mostly I just gave in and had the sex. I pretended to enjoy it, even, to get it over with.
Do you see what I mean? I lied and lied and lied, I hid my true reactions from him, and I trained him to treat me like that. He isn't really to blame for that "rape." I literally asked for it.
------
I mean, I get how crazy this sounds, alright? I've called myself a feminist for twenty years. I know I'm not supposed to blame myself. But that's just theory isn't it. He's truly well intentioned, he never thought he was doing anything that I didn't want, and it IS my fault that he came to believe that my saying no doesn't mean shit.
It's eating me up, this thing. Please help me make sense of it.
Best answer: You did not "train" him to do what he did by having porous boundaries. He chose to think "hey, this person has porous boundaries so I can ignore all the signals I'm getting from them and do whatever I want".
A relationship isn't a fencing match where if you leave an opening you should expect to get stabbed, or a contract where anything not explicitly forbidden is fair game.
I'm not from your culture, but I am from a pretty uptight, old-school, fairly authoritarian kind of background, and (not to let authoritarianism off the hook) just because you think you should be the boss of someone does not equate to thinking that you can treat them as badly as you like. People can have been socialized to be paternalistic and authoritarian without being physically abusive or rapey. This isn't to say that authoritarianism is good, just that "he grew up in a paternalistic and authoritarian society" doesn't mean "he is incapable of doing anything except being cruel".
To me maybe the core moral aspect of being an adult is understanding that "what I can get away with" and "what is right and decent" are not the same thing.
If I were in a relationship with someone and they had been socialized to, eg, do all the chores and let me sit around on the sofa, that would not mean it was right for me to leave all the chores to them. If they said, "No no I'm tired from work and also I have a migraine, but it's my job to scrub the floor", a loving partner would not think "aha, they said they'd do it, I'm off the hook"; a loving partner would evaluate what was going on and then do the right thing.
A loving partner would have been paying enough attention to you to realize that actually you didn't like what was going on, even if you were not actually literally saying "stop, I hate that and I won't do it".
posted by Frowner at 1:40 PM on January 26, 2018 [57 favorites]
A relationship isn't a fencing match where if you leave an opening you should expect to get stabbed, or a contract where anything not explicitly forbidden is fair game.
I'm not from your culture, but I am from a pretty uptight, old-school, fairly authoritarian kind of background, and (not to let authoritarianism off the hook) just because you think you should be the boss of someone does not equate to thinking that you can treat them as badly as you like. People can have been socialized to be paternalistic and authoritarian without being physically abusive or rapey. This isn't to say that authoritarianism is good, just that "he grew up in a paternalistic and authoritarian society" doesn't mean "he is incapable of doing anything except being cruel".
To me maybe the core moral aspect of being an adult is understanding that "what I can get away with" and "what is right and decent" are not the same thing.
If I were in a relationship with someone and they had been socialized to, eg, do all the chores and let me sit around on the sofa, that would not mean it was right for me to leave all the chores to them. If they said, "No no I'm tired from work and also I have a migraine, but it's my job to scrub the floor", a loving partner would not think "aha, they said they'd do it, I'm off the hook"; a loving partner would evaluate what was going on and then do the right thing.
A loving partner would have been paying enough attention to you to realize that actually you didn't like what was going on, even if you were not actually literally saying "stop, I hate that and I won't do it".
posted by Frowner at 1:40 PM on January 26, 2018 [57 favorites]
Is he some sort of monkey or dog, that can be trained to perform tasks without any ability to understand the consequences or implications? Is he a child who lacks a fully-developed conscience? No? He's a grown-up human being? Then, no, you did not "train" him to assault you.
Please find someone you can trust to talk to about this. None of it was your fault.
posted by praemunire at 1:41 PM on January 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
Please find someone you can trust to talk to about this. None of it was your fault.
posted by praemunire at 1:41 PM on January 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
Best answer: Also, a lot of abusive people seek out people who are not able to say no (for whatever reason) precisely because they can then be all "weelllllll, if you'd only told me you didn't like it instead of just crying, being unenthusiastic and seeming unhappy, I totally would have stopped". Which is a lie, of course.
posted by Frowner at 1:42 PM on January 26, 2018 [24 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 1:42 PM on January 26, 2018 [24 favorites]
Best answer: None of that sounds like porous boundaries. All of it sounds like he was abusing you and you were doing what you needed to do to avoid provoking him into anger. That's on him, not you.
posted by lazuli at 1:42 PM on January 26, 2018 [58 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 1:42 PM on January 26, 2018 [58 favorites]
Consent under duress is not the same as actual consent. Pushing for it after you say no counts as duress. Giving in after repeated pressure does not count as consent.
There was an excellent post about this on the blue just yesterday.
He sounds like an asshole, and I'm glad you got away from him
posted by ananci at 1:46 PM on January 26, 2018 [18 favorites]
There was an excellent post about this on the blue just yesterday.
He sounds like an asshole, and I'm glad you got away from him
posted by ananci at 1:46 PM on January 26, 2018 [18 favorites]
Short answer - no. No you really were not. You can take that to the bank.
posted by 41swans at 1:49 PM on January 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by 41swans at 1:49 PM on January 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I read what you wrote very carefully. My takeaway was not that you trained him to think it was consensual sex. My takeaway was that he abused and bullied you into keeping your complaints, discomfort, and especially refusals, to yourself.
This is a step in the process. You're processing everything and that's good. Thank you for reaching out, hope this helped.
posted by jbenben at 1:51 PM on January 26, 2018 [33 favorites]
This is a step in the process. You're processing everything and that's good. Thank you for reaching out, hope this helped.
posted by jbenben at 1:51 PM on January 26, 2018 [33 favorites]
Please please please read ananci's link above, and also this.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 1:53 PM on January 26, 2018
posted by masquesoporfavor at 1:53 PM on January 26, 2018
Best answer: You did certainly not ask for it. You told him you didn't want things, many times. You are not to blame for what his actions. You were so clear. You gave him all the information he could have needed and he chose not to listen. That is so very sad.
And I do understand why you are confused about things now: You've been coerced away from your own 'normal' for so long, in all sorts of ways, for 12 years. He did know he was doing things you didn't want. You said so, so many times. Each time he overruled your wants and needs with his, he made you feel you were to blame for his not immediately getting what he wanted. He forced you into compliance by stonewalling you, again making you feel like you ruined the relationship in to silence and brokenness. That is a very cruel way to get your way in any relationship. He did know he was hurting you but he cared more about what he wanted. That is the sad truth.
You are what you are deep inside, not defined by what you do. So whatever marriage you've had, you are still the same person/feminist inside. That's not theory, that's the core of us that others can never control.
posted by Litehouse at 1:54 PM on January 26, 2018 [12 favorites]
And I do understand why you are confused about things now: You've been coerced away from your own 'normal' for so long, in all sorts of ways, for 12 years. He did know he was doing things you didn't want. You said so, so many times. Each time he overruled your wants and needs with his, he made you feel you were to blame for his not immediately getting what he wanted. He forced you into compliance by stonewalling you, again making you feel like you ruined the relationship in to silence and brokenness. That is a very cruel way to get your way in any relationship. He did know he was hurting you but he cared more about what he wanted. That is the sad truth.
You are what you are deep inside, not defined by what you do. So whatever marriage you've had, you are still the same person/feminist inside. That's not theory, that's the core of us that others can never control.
posted by Litehouse at 1:54 PM on January 26, 2018 [12 favorites]
I think if there was any training done it was him training you to think that his behavior was ok.
He did this by being coercive, ignoring your boundaries and needs and gaslighting you.
posted by raccoon409 at 1:54 PM on January 26, 2018 [17 favorites]
He did this by being coercive, ignoring your boundaries and needs and gaslighting you.
posted by raccoon409 at 1:54 PM on January 26, 2018 [17 favorites]
oh my God. I thought this post was going to be about... well, something very different.
No! No! None of this is your fault! This guy is worse than you realize, far worse. I don't even have enough space here to tell you how much worse he is. But I will tell you this: he is a sadist. Yes. Worse than a garden variety abuser, this is someone who literally got off on your unconsenting pain.
It has nothing to do with his culture! It is a psychopathy, and it is not anything you can train anyone else to feel. It is a deep sickness, and I would love for you to follow up with us to say that you're going to find therapy to help you understand what you were dealing with here.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:56 PM on January 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
No! No! None of this is your fault! This guy is worse than you realize, far worse. I don't even have enough space here to tell you how much worse he is. But I will tell you this: he is a sadist. Yes. Worse than a garden variety abuser, this is someone who literally got off on your unconsenting pain.
It has nothing to do with his culture! It is a psychopathy, and it is not anything you can train anyone else to feel. It is a deep sickness, and I would love for you to follow up with us to say that you're going to find therapy to help you understand what you were dealing with here.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:56 PM on January 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Best answer: Is the worry behind the question that if you trained this guy to abuse you then you might just train the next guy to abuse you?
No. It won't happen and that's not how it happens. Seek help from a therapist who specializes in abuse survivors. You and your husband were in a dysfunctional relationship but he definitely abused you and you definitely have trauma.
You have trauma. It is not your fault. You can heal your broken spirit and find your new self.
posted by amanda at 1:58 PM on January 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
No. It won't happen and that's not how it happens. Seek help from a therapist who specializes in abuse survivors. You and your husband were in a dysfunctional relationship but he definitely abused you and you definitely have trauma.
You have trauma. It is not your fault. You can heal your broken spirit and find your new self.
posted by amanda at 1:58 PM on January 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
Absolutely 1000% NO to the idea that you trained him to abuse you. No, no, no. Nthing all the mentions of gaslighting and coercion, but listen: a good man who loves and cares for his partner treats sex as something for BOTH partners to enjoy. If his partner is crying, a good man is not thinking "YESSSSSSS, this is so hot". No, not even if those tears are tears of relief that a fight is over. In fact, most good men I've known haven't exactly been able to maintain an erection when their partner is that upset. That he actually liked it more when you were upset is, like, a HUGE indicator that he was just not a good person. You didn't make him that way.
posted by palomar at 2:02 PM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by palomar at 2:02 PM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
You didn't train him. He gaslighted you over and over and over and over again.
He gaslit you on purpose.
He gaslit you so he could abuse and rape you.
He is 1000% responsible for his actions.
posted by brookeb at 2:18 PM on January 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
He gaslit you on purpose.
He gaslit you so he could abuse and rape you.
He is 1000% responsible for his actions.
posted by brookeb at 2:18 PM on January 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Best answer: There is a book you should read if you can called Why Does He Do That: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men.
Compare this, a distorted perception that he's instilled in you:
You left him, and that's great, because you figured out the only real way to say "no" to someone like that. That's not always an easy thing to do, and it doesn't always work; there are grim statistics that bear testament to that. But I'm glad you're out, and I really hope you can heal the part of yourself that's trying to shoulder the blame that's not yours.
posted by foxfirefey at 2:23 PM on January 26, 2018 [30 favorites]
Compare this, a distorted perception that he's instilled in you:
He's truly well intentioned, he never thought he was doing anything that I didn't want, and it IS my fault that he came to believe that my saying no doesn't mean shit.With your actual experiences and actions:
I'd explain to him how much I hated it, but then I'd give in when he continued to ask ... Afterwards, he'd cuddle and ask, "Now wasn't that good?" and I'd say, "Ehhh, not really"You were telling him. You were telling him all along. And he was listening, and he understood, and you know he did because he would get ANGRY at you or find other ways to punish you for it: that anger was a tool, because considering what you wanted was inconvenient and could interfere with what he wanted. That's how we know he did not have good intentions.
...
I'd say "No," and he'd argue with me about it.
...
There were times when I scoffed and expressed my outrage at that. This usually led to accusations that I was unforgiving, wanted to prolong the fight, then another argument, another freezeout.
You left him, and that's great, because you figured out the only real way to say "no" to someone like that. That's not always an easy thing to do, and it doesn't always work; there are grim statistics that bear testament to that. But I'm glad you're out, and I really hope you can heal the part of yourself that's trying to shoulder the blame that's not yours.
posted by foxfirefey at 2:23 PM on January 26, 2018 [30 favorites]
A similar thing happened to me. Only the person who I was married to for 12 years was, and is, the kindest person on earth, and he did not push my boundaries. He just didn’t know any better. I just didn’t believe I’m supposed to have boundaries, and would have the bad, painful sex anyway, because you are supposed to, right? Until I got more and more turned off of it, it became more and more painful, until we stopped having sex all together, for the past (several!) years of our marriage. And I just assumed that I’m broken somehow when it comes to sex. It was something I really was down about for the first 20 years of my sex life. Why was I dealt a card of not enjoying sex? Not wanting sex? I didn’t want sex, and I didn’t know what I want in terms of sex, so I couldn’t explain it to my husband, and he didn’t know how to “fix” me either. I can’t blame him for that. His intentions towards me were always good, and kind. He’d say let’s stop if it’s painful, but I’d insist on pushing through, because I just. wanted. to. be. normal!
Then I left my husband, then met another man. This man was very intuitive when it came to sex. And he loved sex. I puzzled him with my tears, with pain, with never initiating it. He was dumbstruck. And I couldn’t explain to him what was wrong, I didn’t know myself! But he got it somehow. On his own. And he literally re-trained my body to truly enjoy sex. Like you train a dog. He had approaches to the whole idea of sex with me that worked! It took him 6 months to do it. It took me that long to let go of fears. In about 6 months, I couldn’t get enough sex with him. For the first time in my life I actually desired someone. Felt what it’s like to be horny! And you know what, I was ANGRY. So very angry at the society that trains women that they must have sex when they don’t necessarily want or enjoy it. Instead of digging and trying to solve the problem, to put up with it. I didn’t know any better! It haven’t occurred to me that I might not be broken! No one ever took the time to help me fix this (until this boyfriend, thank havens for him). And I had to tell myself that all this wasn’t my fault. Because I was angry at myself too.
I think this is similar to where part of your anger comes from, OP. Why are we raised to feel powerless? To submit? To put up with things? To be giving? To please men? I remember one of my first boyfriends coercing me into having sex with him because, he, poor thing, had blue balls. Oh I was so angry that I fell for it. But, but! I was young! And you were too, OP. No one taught us to push back, to stand up for our needs, to assert our “no.” No one taught us that we, and our feelings matter! Please don’t be angry at yourself for any of it. YOU DID NOT KNOW ANY BETTER. You could not have possibly done anything different, due to the circumstances of your upbringing, and the reality of your terrible, abusive marriage.
And what your ex did is despicable. It IS his fault he enjoyed hurting you. It IS his fault he ignored your No’s. It IS his fault he felt entitled to his satisfaction even though he knew it hurt you. He absolutely was shit. If anything, you should be angry at him. For frightening, manipulating you, taking advantage of you. I’m so sorry you went through this. You did nothing wrong, and nothing to enable him. It was all on him. I wish you well in life.
posted by LakeDream at 2:24 PM on January 26, 2018 [21 favorites]
Then I left my husband, then met another man. This man was very intuitive when it came to sex. And he loved sex. I puzzled him with my tears, with pain, with never initiating it. He was dumbstruck. And I couldn’t explain to him what was wrong, I didn’t know myself! But he got it somehow. On his own. And he literally re-trained my body to truly enjoy sex. Like you train a dog. He had approaches to the whole idea of sex with me that worked! It took him 6 months to do it. It took me that long to let go of fears. In about 6 months, I couldn’t get enough sex with him. For the first time in my life I actually desired someone. Felt what it’s like to be horny! And you know what, I was ANGRY. So very angry at the society that trains women that they must have sex when they don’t necessarily want or enjoy it. Instead of digging and trying to solve the problem, to put up with it. I didn’t know any better! It haven’t occurred to me that I might not be broken! No one ever took the time to help me fix this (until this boyfriend, thank havens for him). And I had to tell myself that all this wasn’t my fault. Because I was angry at myself too.
I think this is similar to where part of your anger comes from, OP. Why are we raised to feel powerless? To submit? To put up with things? To be giving? To please men? I remember one of my first boyfriends coercing me into having sex with him because, he, poor thing, had blue balls. Oh I was so angry that I fell for it. But, but! I was young! And you were too, OP. No one taught us to push back, to stand up for our needs, to assert our “no.” No one taught us that we, and our feelings matter! Please don’t be angry at yourself for any of it. YOU DID NOT KNOW ANY BETTER. You could not have possibly done anything different, due to the circumstances of your upbringing, and the reality of your terrible, abusive marriage.
And what your ex did is despicable. It IS his fault he enjoyed hurting you. It IS his fault he ignored your No’s. It IS his fault he felt entitled to his satisfaction even though he knew it hurt you. He absolutely was shit. If anything, you should be angry at him. For frightening, manipulating you, taking advantage of you. I’m so sorry you went through this. You did nothing wrong, and nothing to enable him. It was all on him. I wish you well in life.
posted by LakeDream at 2:24 PM on January 26, 2018 [21 favorites]
I think if there was any training done it was him training you to think that his behavior was ok.
Sometimes it can be helpful to frame this as "This was part of the abuse" because the big deal with many (most) situations where there is domestic violence is that it's not just someone who hits someone else, it's someone who basically "grooms" (this is a word you see a lot) a person into believing that getting hit is in some way at least partially their fault. It's super fucked up, not okay. but also a sort of sad and reliable pattern with people who suffer abuse, is that it's not just healing from bruises, it's healing from all the grooming that whatever happened to you was somehow your fault.
It's not, what your ex did was super fucked up. The mind games, the shitty things he said to you, the arguing, the silence. Those were all part of an overall strategy (likely not intentional, but who cares why abusers are abusers beyond a certain point?) to make you compliant and doubt yourself. So it may be helpful for you to see your doubt as part of the shitty things he did, and not part of you. You left. You did it. Your safer. Whether this was his intention or not, he crossed lines that people could point to as "Nope, this guy is wrong" and it's okay to feel that way. This is not your fault.
posted by jessamyn at 2:37 PM on January 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
Sometimes it can be helpful to frame this as "This was part of the abuse" because the big deal with many (most) situations where there is domestic violence is that it's not just someone who hits someone else, it's someone who basically "grooms" (this is a word you see a lot) a person into believing that getting hit is in some way at least partially their fault. It's super fucked up, not okay. but also a sort of sad and reliable pattern with people who suffer abuse, is that it's not just healing from bruises, it's healing from all the grooming that whatever happened to you was somehow your fault.
It's not, what your ex did was super fucked up. The mind games, the shitty things he said to you, the arguing, the silence. Those were all part of an overall strategy (likely not intentional, but who cares why abusers are abusers beyond a certain point?) to make you compliant and doubt yourself. So it may be helpful for you to see your doubt as part of the shitty things he did, and not part of you. You left. You did it. Your safer. Whether this was his intention or not, he crossed lines that people could point to as "Nope, this guy is wrong" and it's okay to feel that way. This is not your fault.
posted by jessamyn at 2:37 PM on January 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
From one survivor with a sort of similar story to another: I am so sorry this happened to you.
It's not your fault. Our abusers condition us to take the blame for our abuse. You feeling at fault is part of being abused. But it's not your fault. You didn't train him.
I think it also often feels safer to blame ourselves. Like, if you did train him, you can protect yourself in the future. But that's your brain trying to make sense of a thing that is truly out of sense. What he did to you was wrong and horrifying and I'm so sorry you endured it. It makes no sense that you had to endure it, and by taking responsibility your brain may be trying to reclaim some agency -- you and I both know how little agency you have when you don't have a choice about even purchasing coffee, let alone a choice about your own body and what happens to it.
Take care of yourself. I hope you have a good professional person like a therapist to speak with. The road of survivorship is a process. Leaving is not an event: it's the start of a journey. Thank you for starting the journey, and take care of yourself as you continue on it.
It was not your fault.
posted by sockermom at 2:38 PM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's not your fault. Our abusers condition us to take the blame for our abuse. You feeling at fault is part of being abused. But it's not your fault. You didn't train him.
I think it also often feels safer to blame ourselves. Like, if you did train him, you can protect yourself in the future. But that's your brain trying to make sense of a thing that is truly out of sense. What he did to you was wrong and horrifying and I'm so sorry you endured it. It makes no sense that you had to endure it, and by taking responsibility your brain may be trying to reclaim some agency -- you and I both know how little agency you have when you don't have a choice about even purchasing coffee, let alone a choice about your own body and what happens to it.
Take care of yourself. I hope you have a good professional person like a therapist to speak with. The road of survivorship is a process. Leaving is not an event: it's the start of a journey. Thank you for starting the journey, and take care of yourself as you continue on it.
It was not your fault.
posted by sockermom at 2:38 PM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
Best answer: You did not train him to ignore you when you said no. You told him, over and over, I don't like this; I don't want this; I will put up with this because it's important to you but please stop doing this.
And he worked very hard to twist your thoughts around to believe that you had "made" him this way, that you somehow "earned" being assaulted in ways you did not like and did not want, that you had agreed to things because you must have wanted them, instead of accepting that marriage sometimes involves parts you don't like.
Of course, HIS version of marriage didn't involve parts he didn't like.
I never lost my temper at him like I probably should have.
Or, part of you recognized that losing your temper could be physically dangerous - that a man who ignores you when you say, "I don't want to do this; please stop," may ignore you when you say, "this is hurting me, is breaking my bones, please stop." You have no idea which of your boundaries he would accept.
You already knew that he will ignore your own perceptions about your body - that he will insist that he knows when you are having an orgasm. Why wouldn't you expect him to ignore what you say about injury as well? You already knew he would refuse to accept "no, I don't want to" as an answer, that he would coerce and wheedle and argue, like a child asking for a treat instead of like and adult who understands he has no right to demand sex from you.
He said that you being in pain - crying - was a turn-on for him. He LIKED you being upset, confused, sad, and willing to do whatever he wanted to make him stop abusing you. (Refusing to speak with your spouse, especially when you know it bothers them, is abuse. Marriage should be a partnership; you can't have a partnership without communication.)
Not. Your. Fault.
None of it. Not even sticking around as long as you did. You cared about him; you wanted to make the relationship work - and he kept lying to you, telling you it was going to be better, and you wanted to believe him.
It's not a crime, not a sin, not a moral failing, to want to believe your spouse. To be confused when they lie to you; to be willing to put up with sex you dislike in the hopes that it'll make the rest of the marriage better. You didn't train him to be abusive; he trained you, slowly and with great effort, to put up with abuse, and he believed he could continue escalating it forever.
he never thought he was doing anything that I didn't want
Bullshit. You TOLD him. Over and over. He ignored that, and worked very hard to convince you that he knew what you really wanted. A man who truly believed he hadn't done anything you didn't want, would be appalled at you crying. Would be confused when you went still or pulled away from him. Would know that "ehhh not really" meant you didn't enjoy it - because that's certainly not, "oh I was wrong; that was great." He knew he was lying to you, and he knew he was forcing you into acts you hated.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:40 PM on January 26, 2018 [10 favorites]
And he worked very hard to twist your thoughts around to believe that you had "made" him this way, that you somehow "earned" being assaulted in ways you did not like and did not want, that you had agreed to things because you must have wanted them, instead of accepting that marriage sometimes involves parts you don't like.
Of course, HIS version of marriage didn't involve parts he didn't like.
I never lost my temper at him like I probably should have.
Or, part of you recognized that losing your temper could be physically dangerous - that a man who ignores you when you say, "I don't want to do this; please stop," may ignore you when you say, "this is hurting me, is breaking my bones, please stop." You have no idea which of your boundaries he would accept.
You already knew that he will ignore your own perceptions about your body - that he will insist that he knows when you are having an orgasm. Why wouldn't you expect him to ignore what you say about injury as well? You already knew he would refuse to accept "no, I don't want to" as an answer, that he would coerce and wheedle and argue, like a child asking for a treat instead of like and adult who understands he has no right to demand sex from you.
He said that you being in pain - crying - was a turn-on for him. He LIKED you being upset, confused, sad, and willing to do whatever he wanted to make him stop abusing you. (Refusing to speak with your spouse, especially when you know it bothers them, is abuse. Marriage should be a partnership; you can't have a partnership without communication.)
Not. Your. Fault.
None of it. Not even sticking around as long as you did. You cared about him; you wanted to make the relationship work - and he kept lying to you, telling you it was going to be better, and you wanted to believe him.
It's not a crime, not a sin, not a moral failing, to want to believe your spouse. To be confused when they lie to you; to be willing to put up with sex you dislike in the hopes that it'll make the rest of the marriage better. You didn't train him to be abusive; he trained you, slowly and with great effort, to put up with abuse, and he believed he could continue escalating it forever.
he never thought he was doing anything that I didn't want
Bullshit. You TOLD him. Over and over. He ignored that, and worked very hard to convince you that he knew what you really wanted. A man who truly believed he hadn't done anything you didn't want, would be appalled at you crying. Would be confused when you went still or pulled away from him. Would know that "ehhh not really" meant you didn't enjoy it - because that's certainly not, "oh I was wrong; that was great." He knew he was lying to you, and he knew he was forcing you into acts you hated.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:40 PM on January 26, 2018 [10 favorites]
It was not your responsibility to make your ex husband act like a decent human being. That's on him.
posted by orange swan at 2:51 PM on January 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 2:51 PM on January 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm reading all your answers repeatedly, trying to make myself believe the things you're telling me. Here and there, a point or phrase gets through. Some of you pointed out that I did communicate my reluctance and he could have heard me, had he chosen to... that makes sense. Upthread, there was one person who wrote, "I read what you wrote very carefully," and for some reason that brings me to tears. Thank you all for reading. Thank you all for writing all of this out. I'm reading everything over and over. It's just one of those days, I think, I haven't had one of these in a while.
posted by MiraK at 3:49 PM on January 26, 2018 [34 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 3:49 PM on January 26, 2018 [34 favorites]
Best answer: This is why abusive relationships can leave such a legacy of hurt even long after they are over.
I was abused as a child. From age 5 until age 12. By the time I got my first "proper" boyfriend (someone I actually felt I was choosing) I was incredibly well trained as to how to act and what to do to make men like you. I had a little porn star routine down pat. It did not occur to me that consent was involved or could be withdrawn. It did not occur to me that sex wasn't supposed to be an act women did to entertain men. It did not occur to me that a man would love me if I didn't act like that. I had by then internalized a set of rules that at the time made perfect sense but now leave me sick with horror. Look happy. Be noisy. Be keen to do whatever is asked. Don't cry. Don't feel. Basically I was trained to act in ways that assuaged my abuser's guilt amd allowed him to pretend to himself that i was an equally keen partner in his crimes.
Now, a quarter of a century on, I look back on it and feel sad for that lost little girl. Every encounter was legally rape because I was 14 and he was 20, and some were morally rape because I actually voiced pain and dissent and he ignored me or told me that it felt good because it felt good TO HIM. But I look at the 20 year olds I know now and also think that there are few who could have seen through the show I put on and realised the true extent to which I was broken. I don't blame myself for any part of it. I was what I had been raised to be - a good little slut. But I also recognise he isn't 100% at fault either.
It can be not fully his fault without being in any way yours OP. We are all the people we were raised to be. Did his father shout at his mother for buying a coffee without permission? Did he see in the closest relationships around him coercion and control as the basic currency of men and women? Did you argue loudly with your parents and win as a child? Were you given choices and were your choices respected?
The bottom line is that you did not ask to come to the relationship as a victim or cause him to behave in those ways in any way you could have actually avoided.
I have peace with my past. I hope you find peace with yours too.
posted by intergalacticvelvet at 3:57 PM on January 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
I was abused as a child. From age 5 until age 12. By the time I got my first "proper" boyfriend (someone I actually felt I was choosing) I was incredibly well trained as to how to act and what to do to make men like you. I had a little porn star routine down pat. It did not occur to me that consent was involved or could be withdrawn. It did not occur to me that sex wasn't supposed to be an act women did to entertain men. It did not occur to me that a man would love me if I didn't act like that. I had by then internalized a set of rules that at the time made perfect sense but now leave me sick with horror. Look happy. Be noisy. Be keen to do whatever is asked. Don't cry. Don't feel. Basically I was trained to act in ways that assuaged my abuser's guilt amd allowed him to pretend to himself that i was an equally keen partner in his crimes.
Now, a quarter of a century on, I look back on it and feel sad for that lost little girl. Every encounter was legally rape because I was 14 and he was 20, and some were morally rape because I actually voiced pain and dissent and he ignored me or told me that it felt good because it felt good TO HIM. But I look at the 20 year olds I know now and also think that there are few who could have seen through the show I put on and realised the true extent to which I was broken. I don't blame myself for any part of it. I was what I had been raised to be - a good little slut. But I also recognise he isn't 100% at fault either.
It can be not fully his fault without being in any way yours OP. We are all the people we were raised to be. Did his father shout at his mother for buying a coffee without permission? Did he see in the closest relationships around him coercion and control as the basic currency of men and women? Did you argue loudly with your parents and win as a child? Were you given choices and were your choices respected?
The bottom line is that you did not ask to come to the relationship as a victim or cause him to behave in those ways in any way you could have actually avoided.
I have peace with my past. I hope you find peace with yours too.
posted by intergalacticvelvet at 3:57 PM on January 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
Imagine you and a friend are going out to a movie.
Pretend you like rom-coms. (I have no idea if you like rom-coms.) You think they're sweet and funny and romantic, and you like movies where everyone's happy at the end. You find them a nice break from stress at work and heavy political thoughts.
Your friend hates rom-coms. She thinks they're insipid and heterosexist and full of clichés, and entirely unrealistic. She wants to see a horror movie, something that gets her heart pounding and makes her think about things that do not exist at all, so she never has to worry about them happening in real life.
You convince her to see a rom-com with you. "Oh come on, I promise you'll like it, we'll have a blast; it'll be fun." Sighing, she gives in, and goes to see the movie with you. She doesn't laugh at the parts you think are funny. When it's over, you ask, "there, wasn't that great?" and she says, "eh, not really."
Would you convince yourself that she really liked the movie? Would you believe that she'd changed her mind and now she really loves rom-coms and you should totally go see one again next week?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:01 PM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Pretend you like rom-coms. (I have no idea if you like rom-coms.) You think they're sweet and funny and romantic, and you like movies where everyone's happy at the end. You find them a nice break from stress at work and heavy political thoughts.
Your friend hates rom-coms. She thinks they're insipid and heterosexist and full of clichés, and entirely unrealistic. She wants to see a horror movie, something that gets her heart pounding and makes her think about things that do not exist at all, so she never has to worry about them happening in real life.
You convince her to see a rom-com with you. "Oh come on, I promise you'll like it, we'll have a blast; it'll be fun." Sighing, she gives in, and goes to see the movie with you. She doesn't laugh at the parts you think are funny. When it's over, you ask, "there, wasn't that great?" and she says, "eh, not really."
Would you convince yourself that she really liked the movie? Would you believe that she'd changed her mind and now she really loves rom-coms and you should totally go see one again next week?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:01 PM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
GASLIGHTTTIIIIINNNGGGGGGGGG.
He made you completely disbelieve your own perceptions, feelings, and the legitimacy of your experience. This is gaslighting and an extremely effective and disturbing way that abusers control people. He is even controlling you now, from a distance, because you have not established boundaries internally around what is 'yours' and what is 'his.'
Sounds like you grew up with a marginalized voice and identity within your family / maybe culture. YOU ARE INCREDIBLE for getting out. You will never regret escaping. You are doing hard work to secure yourself and your identity. Good for you. Your spirit is strong- which is what enabled you to escape to begin with. Don't hesitate to reclaim your light, because you deserve to and you deserve better than what you've gotten. Huge heart hugs.
posted by erattacorrige at 4:04 PM on January 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
He made you completely disbelieve your own perceptions, feelings, and the legitimacy of your experience. This is gaslighting and an extremely effective and disturbing way that abusers control people. He is even controlling you now, from a distance, because you have not established boundaries internally around what is 'yours' and what is 'his.'
Sounds like you grew up with a marginalized voice and identity within your family / maybe culture. YOU ARE INCREDIBLE for getting out. You will never regret escaping. You are doing hard work to secure yourself and your identity. Good for you. Your spirit is strong- which is what enabled you to escape to begin with. Don't hesitate to reclaim your light, because you deserve to and you deserve better than what you've gotten. Huge heart hugs.
posted by erattacorrige at 4:04 PM on January 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: I think I'm struggling with seeing my ex as a "bad person." His actions seem to qualify him for the label but dear god, the guy is as guileless as they come, I just can't wrap my head around the idea that any of it was deliberate or intentional. But it must have been. It must have been.
posted by MiraK at 4:13 PM on January 26, 2018
posted by MiraK at 4:13 PM on January 26, 2018
Yes, yes it was.
posted by aclevername at 4:17 PM on January 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by aclevername at 4:17 PM on January 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
It doesn't matter if he was a "bad person." He hurt you. He did it repeatedly, knowing he could do something else.
Maybe he thought that's how a marriage is supposed to work. Maybe he really did convince himself it was what you wanted. Maybe he knew some of it was wrong, but felt too guilty and confused to mention it or find some other way.
It doesn't matter. He doesn't need to be evil to be a source of abuse. He was bad for you, regardless of how he justified it to himself. And you don't have to hate him or think he was evil, to acknowledge that he hurt you because of his own choices and not because you "made him" do it.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:18 PM on January 26, 2018 [15 favorites]
Maybe he thought that's how a marriage is supposed to work. Maybe he really did convince himself it was what you wanted. Maybe he knew some of it was wrong, but felt too guilty and confused to mention it or find some other way.
It doesn't matter. He doesn't need to be evil to be a source of abuse. He was bad for you, regardless of how he justified it to himself. And you don't have to hate him or think he was evil, to acknowledge that he hurt you because of his own choices and not because you "made him" do it.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:18 PM on January 26, 2018 [15 favorites]
Please read the recent article The Myth Of The Male Bumbler. It has so many excellent parallels to your question, and especially your last comment.
posted by rada at 4:19 PM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by rada at 4:19 PM on January 26, 2018 [7 favorites]
Relevant: The Myth of the Male Bumbler and the associated FPP. Men have gotten away with a lot of abuse by claiming, "oh, I didn't understand that was bothering anyone."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:20 PM on January 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:20 PM on January 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: My ex used to cry about how he was a monster of what I said was true about the abuse so I had to take the blame for my own abuse or deny it. At some point I just started shrugging and going "call yourself what you want" because I'm not responsible for his morals. It's really hard at the start because you don't wan to have loved a person who willingly hurt you and abused you. The Lundy Bancroft books are great. Time helps the most, I promise, and looking at things with distance, imagining someone else in your situation. You'd not tell a friend it was her fault or blame her for such awful sexual experiences repeatedly, and you'd say, look sex involves two people and you tried and he didn't, and he kept hurting you. Be that friend to yourself.
I don't have advice only sympathy about terrible sex. Boundless absolute total sympathy - enjoy the empty bed and the safety of stretching out alone and not having to perform or cry in a bathroom quietly.
You're awesome. And you survived. He tried to break you over and over and you still held on. You even still have compassion for him. Now you can use that strength and commission for the young woman who got married with love and trust, and give her the truth and go forward. You didn't make him hurt you.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:53 PM on January 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
I don't have advice only sympathy about terrible sex. Boundless absolute total sympathy - enjoy the empty bed and the safety of stretching out alone and not having to perform or cry in a bathroom quietly.
You're awesome. And you survived. He tried to break you over and over and you still held on. You even still have compassion for him. Now you can use that strength and commission for the young woman who got married with love and trust, and give her the truth and go forward. You didn't make him hurt you.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:53 PM on January 26, 2018 [9 favorites]
“the guy is as guileless as they come”
Maybe so, but nothing you’ve said indicates he was facing any barriers in learning how to be better. If he’s got access to the internet, or even the library, he could have sought out the information he needed. There are tons of articles, self-help books, about how to make sex pleasurable for women.
posted by cranberrymonger at 4:54 PM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Maybe so, but nothing you’ve said indicates he was facing any barriers in learning how to be better. If he’s got access to the internet, or even the library, he could have sought out the information he needed. There are tons of articles, self-help books, about how to make sex pleasurable for women.
posted by cranberrymonger at 4:54 PM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
The thing is, someone can be guileless and yet at fault, because part of being an adult is paying attention. Choosing to not think about how others are feeling - that's a choice. Leaving aside the yelling at you "for hours" over a cup of coffee, which is something that good people do not do, he chose to be the type of person who ignored the very clear signals you were sending.
It's like - I'm white, I can choose to go through life being all "la la I don't see race, nothing I do could ever have racist effects, I never see any racism around me". That's not the same as saying "I am a racist, I am joining the alt-right", but it's still a selfish and wrong choice that an adult should not make. No one has the responsibility to be perfect, but we have the responsibility to pay attention to the world and modulate our behavior, the more so as we get older.
posted by Frowner at 4:56 PM on January 26, 2018 [18 favorites]
It's like - I'm white, I can choose to go through life being all "la la I don't see race, nothing I do could ever have racist effects, I never see any racism around me". That's not the same as saying "I am a racist, I am joining the alt-right", but it's still a selfish and wrong choice that an adult should not make. No one has the responsibility to be perfect, but we have the responsibility to pay attention to the world and modulate our behavior, the more so as we get older.
posted by Frowner at 4:56 PM on January 26, 2018 [18 favorites]
(TW Y'all)
MiraK, when I was seven, a stranger came up to me and asked me if I wanted to see something that would make me feel good in summer. I said, "I only want to see it." I followed him. He raped me.
All the way home, I -- seven years old-- yelled at myself to stop crying, because it was my fault, because I talked to a stranger. Because I didn't tell that stranger NO! It took me a long time to understand that what that man did to me was HIS fault.
What that man did you to was HIS fault. You said no. But even if you hadn't, he knew he was hurting you and he did it because he wanted to.
You cannot be to blame for someone else's cruelty. Cruelty is always a choice.
posted by headspace at 5:31 PM on January 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
MiraK, when I was seven, a stranger came up to me and asked me if I wanted to see something that would make me feel good in summer. I said, "I only want to see it." I followed him. He raped me.
All the way home, I -- seven years old-- yelled at myself to stop crying, because it was my fault, because I talked to a stranger. Because I didn't tell that stranger NO! It took me a long time to understand that what that man did to me was HIS fault.
What that man did you to was HIS fault. You said no. But even if you hadn't, he knew he was hurting you and he did it because he wanted to.
You cannot be to blame for someone else's cruelty. Cruelty is always a choice.
posted by headspace at 5:31 PM on January 26, 2018 [13 favorites]
Best answer: Something to ponder: how many times was he arrested for screaming for hours at people who irritated him at the store or office or on the street? How many jobs was he fired from for being unable to appropriately manage work relationships, engage in basic cooperation with other people? How many cars did he crash because he was incapable of understanding driving laws or following pretty basic signs and warnings? How many sexual assaults did he commit in the course of going about his day?
If he could leave your home and behave like a relatively functional human being, he could have chosen to do so at home.
He chose not to. There's no other reason for that except he was a bad person, all the way to the core. He wasn't that guileless if he could hold down a job and stay out of jail.
And the problem with having been with a bad person for a long time is that you have a human need to believe you had some kind of control, that you weren't really that manipulated by someone that awful, so surely you were a partner in his badness, not the target, not the victim. It's almost easier, really, to say no no, that was me, I made those things happen, I chose them, but it's a little too simple and easy, it's a little magical to think that. There was an extraordinary pressure and influence and manipulation put on you to keep you afraid and uncertain; in the end you did finally get away and you do get all the credit for that part, but that does not mean you have to/get to/need to take responsibility for the things he did to trap you there.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:39 PM on January 26, 2018 [30 favorites]
If he could leave your home and behave like a relatively functional human being, he could have chosen to do so at home.
He chose not to. There's no other reason for that except he was a bad person, all the way to the core. He wasn't that guileless if he could hold down a job and stay out of jail.
And the problem with having been with a bad person for a long time is that you have a human need to believe you had some kind of control, that you weren't really that manipulated by someone that awful, so surely you were a partner in his badness, not the target, not the victim. It's almost easier, really, to say no no, that was me, I made those things happen, I chose them, but it's a little too simple and easy, it's a little magical to think that. There was an extraordinary pressure and influence and manipulation put on you to keep you afraid and uncertain; in the end you did finally get away and you do get all the credit for that part, but that does not mean you have to/get to/need to take responsibility for the things he did to trap you there.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:39 PM on January 26, 2018 [30 favorites]
Sometimes I leave my kids toys on the front lawn over night.
I would feel a little ashamed if someone ever stole them.
But also
Fuck that guy for stealing my toys. Stealing is wrong!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 5:49 PM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
I would feel a little ashamed if someone ever stole them.
But also
Fuck that guy for stealing my toys. Stealing is wrong!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 5:49 PM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: That is to say I don't want to have to live in a world where I have to have 100% perfect boundaries all the time in order for people to uphold their side of the social contract and treat me like a human being worthy of decency and respect.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 5:53 PM on January 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 5:53 PM on January 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
He failed to respect your boundaries. That's on him, not you. He tried to make you doubt your own experiences, which is an abuse tactic called gaslighting. Calling a mental health hotline or making an appointment with a therapist may help you with processing your emotions about what he put you through.
posted by Eevee at 5:59 PM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Eevee at 5:59 PM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If I were looking for a story about dubious consent in a marriage, I'm afraid this one would absolutely not pass muster. There is nothing dubious here, at all. Honestly I can't find even a hint of the beginning of a question mark anywhere in anything you've said. In fact, I think your story is one I'd pull out to show a textbook example of what the clear and obvious absence of consent within a marriage looks like.
As everyone else is saying, part of the horror of this abuse is that it messes with your head and makes you think your survival tactics make you complicit somehow. You were not. You did everything you could to be clear. He understood you. He just did what he wanted to do anyway. 100% him, not you.
If someone else told you this story, it would be as clear to you as it is to us. I know it's hard to see it in the objective light of day as we do, but please know that there's absolutely no question in anyone's mind about this. There's no grey area here. It wasn't your fault.
posted by Hildegarde at 6:15 PM on January 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
As everyone else is saying, part of the horror of this abuse is that it messes with your head and makes you think your survival tactics make you complicit somehow. You were not. You did everything you could to be clear. He understood you. He just did what he wanted to do anyway. 100% him, not you.
If someone else told you this story, it would be as clear to you as it is to us. I know it's hard to see it in the objective light of day as we do, but please know that there's absolutely no question in anyone's mind about this. There's no grey area here. It wasn't your fault.
posted by Hildegarde at 6:15 PM on January 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
I loved my abuser too. In many ways he is a nice guy. I felt sorry for his struggles. But he was a poop milkshake.
posted by SyraCarol at 6:30 PM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by SyraCarol at 6:30 PM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I just can't wrap my head around the idea that any of it was deliberate or intentional
It might not have been, in the sense of it being a transparent, clear-eyed decision to be harmful to another human being.
What might have been at play (among other things):
- Patriarchal objectification slipping in, in the moments male>female power are salient (sex, domestic split of labour, etc) - a baseline, not fully conscious, pernicious assumption that you, as a member of the category "woman", are not (fully) an autonomous person of equal worth, with unique desires, sensitivities, and boundaries that have to be respected in the way he'd want to be respected. This objectification, depersonalization, reduction is cultural, but it's universal. As soon as you married, you stepped out of the role of trophy to be won, and into the role of wife, with all the sexist baggage that goes with that. It's possible for people to flip in and out of this perspective, to at times see you through this filter (when something as highly motivated as e.g. sex is at issue) and to see you as someone more fully human at other times.
- There is some support for your thought that holding firm boundaries can reduce the odds of violence in relationships. The problem is that in order to hold totally impermeable boundaries, many, many women have to overcome feminine socialization, which calls us to orient towards and concern ourselves with others over ourselves. This is trained into us from all directions, from childhood. Women escaping it do so by quirk of personality, or because they've benefitted from a particular family history favouring self-determination and self-actualization. (Or the hard way, through long experience. Even still, it can catch us.) It's also not easy (or arguably, wise) to do that if the partner in question has the power to physically overwhelm you and has demonstrated that they're capable of flipping out on a dime. You were surviving.
Feminine socialization speaks through you in those moments of tenderness that allow you to forgive, or to selectively ignore harmful actions. Combine that with moment-to-moment risk assessments - a question of survival, since your ex indicated threat of violence casually, all the time, and reminded you that he had power over you, all the time. Combine that with the stunned confusion that can result from the cognitive dissonance of being with someone who is lovely one minute and horrible the next, and with the hope of things improving, of having your own self met and understood - a hope that is justified if you're acting in good faith, and assuming your partner also is acting in good faith (which he can't, if he doesn't really see you as fully human)...
Altogether, it is freezing, incapacitating. Especially if you're quite young, as you were when you met, with no experience other than this.
These are structural forces speaking through each of you. There are other, more individualistic and psychological things happening, which others have addressed, but these cultural and developmental aspects are in play, too.
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:40 PM on January 26, 2018 [18 favorites]
It might not have been, in the sense of it being a transparent, clear-eyed decision to be harmful to another human being.
What might have been at play (among other things):
- Patriarchal objectification slipping in, in the moments male>female power are salient (sex, domestic split of labour, etc) - a baseline, not fully conscious, pernicious assumption that you, as a member of the category "woman", are not (fully) an autonomous person of equal worth, with unique desires, sensitivities, and boundaries that have to be respected in the way he'd want to be respected. This objectification, depersonalization, reduction is cultural, but it's universal. As soon as you married, you stepped out of the role of trophy to be won, and into the role of wife, with all the sexist baggage that goes with that. It's possible for people to flip in and out of this perspective, to at times see you through this filter (when something as highly motivated as e.g. sex is at issue) and to see you as someone more fully human at other times.
- There is some support for your thought that holding firm boundaries can reduce the odds of violence in relationships. The problem is that in order to hold totally impermeable boundaries, many, many women have to overcome feminine socialization, which calls us to orient towards and concern ourselves with others over ourselves. This is trained into us from all directions, from childhood. Women escaping it do so by quirk of personality, or because they've benefitted from a particular family history favouring self-determination and self-actualization. (Or the hard way, through long experience. Even still, it can catch us.) It's also not easy (or arguably, wise) to do that if the partner in question has the power to physically overwhelm you and has demonstrated that they're capable of flipping out on a dime. You were surviving.
Feminine socialization speaks through you in those moments of tenderness that allow you to forgive, or to selectively ignore harmful actions. Combine that with moment-to-moment risk assessments - a question of survival, since your ex indicated threat of violence casually, all the time, and reminded you that he had power over you, all the time. Combine that with the stunned confusion that can result from the cognitive dissonance of being with someone who is lovely one minute and horrible the next, and with the hope of things improving, of having your own self met and understood - a hope that is justified if you're acting in good faith, and assuming your partner also is acting in good faith (which he can't, if he doesn't really see you as fully human)...
Altogether, it is freezing, incapacitating. Especially if you're quite young, as you were when you met, with no experience other than this.
These are structural forces speaking through each of you. There are other, more individualistic and psychological things happening, which others have addressed, but these cultural and developmental aspects are in play, too.
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:40 PM on January 26, 2018 [18 favorites]
All that said (just to remind you of the fundamentals, which pretty much everyone who grows up in a sexist society - so everyone - has to do), ErisLordFreedom and everyone here is right. No one's perfectly good or bad, and it doesn't matter if they somehow "fundamentally" are or not, if they are repeatedly hurting you.
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:45 PM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:45 PM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm glad you asked this question.
The way I see it is, there was always going to have to be a Final No. You tried all kinds of "No"s. He didn't listen and pushed you further and further and further. You gave him SO MANY chances to hear your Nos, even though you didn't have to, even though he should've made sure the answer was Yes before doing anything. But he refused to listen and kept pushing. Then one day you arrived at the Big, Non-Negotiable Final No, and like all your other Nos, even though you were crying and saying No and Stop, he didn't listen. And because it was the final no, you acted on it. That's awesome. If you'd enforced one earlier, that would've been the Final No. And you would've been asking yourself if you'd trained him to disregard you then. Basically, since he wouldn't listen to anything up until the Final No, you got pushed to that. I'm so sorry it happened the way it did. But I'm glad you got out.
Is he guileless? I don't know. He sure isn't harmless. The book Why Does He Do That? recommended above is a really good read when your mind starts trying to figure out how he could do such a thing.
posted by salvia at 7:37 PM on January 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
The way I see it is, there was always going to have to be a Final No. You tried all kinds of "No"s. He didn't listen and pushed you further and further and further. You gave him SO MANY chances to hear your Nos, even though you didn't have to, even though he should've made sure the answer was Yes before doing anything. But he refused to listen and kept pushing. Then one day you arrived at the Big, Non-Negotiable Final No, and like all your other Nos, even though you were crying and saying No and Stop, he didn't listen. And because it was the final no, you acted on it. That's awesome. If you'd enforced one earlier, that would've been the Final No. And you would've been asking yourself if you'd trained him to disregard you then. Basically, since he wouldn't listen to anything up until the Final No, you got pushed to that. I'm so sorry it happened the way it did. But I'm glad you got out.
Is he guileless? I don't know. He sure isn't harmless. The book Why Does He Do That? recommended above is a really good read when your mind starts trying to figure out how he could do such a thing.
posted by salvia at 7:37 PM on January 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
Best answer: Please help me make sense of it.
People think these things because if you can make it your fault it doesn't have to be his. A husband who rapes you for fun is so frightening and disgusting, so upsetting to have known and loved and been tortured by, that it hurts you worse to think of it than to think up this fake story. It is a fake story -- it is literally impossible to train an adult man into a rapist. Nothing you describe is anything like the way you characterize it.
but it makes sense; you aren't crazy or delusional, either. you are not alone in wanting to construct a way in which you made it happen because that makes it like you had power the whole time, like he never stole it. he used power he didn't deserve to have to control you and you are rewriting the whole story to be you taking control of him. this is a healthy impulse steering you in a scary direction -- you aren't wrong to want your power back, to want to be in control of yourself and of what other people do to you. you had the right to be in control of what happened to you. but you weren't. he took that away from you.
You weren't to blame for anything. you aren't even to blame for fantasizing, now, that you could have been to blame then. It scares me to hear it but it's still not your fault for worrying this way. He was lying to you about everything he said he believed about your reactions. Rapists lie.
It's "just theory" that you shouldn't blame yourself in the same way it's "just theory" that you do. women do blame themselves even for things nowhere near as horrific as this, because it's too intolerable to acknowledge that a man knew what he was doing, or that you couldn't make him stop. that's theory, too. theory describes reality.
you do what you have to do, to cope, like all trauma survivors. but he's a bad person, he has done some of the worst things a man can do in life, he did it all by himself. you didn't help. you survived; you didn't collaborate. and if thinking about that too much makes you sick or makes you cry, stop. you don't have to think about this in a way that makes you feel worse. you don't have to go over the 'right way' of thinking about it if it makes you feel worse. you don't have to feel righteous and angry about it or pretend to have emotions you can't come up with. but all of it was his fault and none of it was your fault.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:53 PM on January 26, 2018 [20 favorites]
People think these things because if you can make it your fault it doesn't have to be his. A husband who rapes you for fun is so frightening and disgusting, so upsetting to have known and loved and been tortured by, that it hurts you worse to think of it than to think up this fake story. It is a fake story -- it is literally impossible to train an adult man into a rapist. Nothing you describe is anything like the way you characterize it.
but it makes sense; you aren't crazy or delusional, either. you are not alone in wanting to construct a way in which you made it happen because that makes it like you had power the whole time, like he never stole it. he used power he didn't deserve to have to control you and you are rewriting the whole story to be you taking control of him. this is a healthy impulse steering you in a scary direction -- you aren't wrong to want your power back, to want to be in control of yourself and of what other people do to you. you had the right to be in control of what happened to you. but you weren't. he took that away from you.
You weren't to blame for anything. you aren't even to blame for fantasizing, now, that you could have been to blame then. It scares me to hear it but it's still not your fault for worrying this way. He was lying to you about everything he said he believed about your reactions. Rapists lie.
It's "just theory" that you shouldn't blame yourself in the same way it's "just theory" that you do. women do blame themselves even for things nowhere near as horrific as this, because it's too intolerable to acknowledge that a man knew what he was doing, or that you couldn't make him stop. that's theory, too. theory describes reality.
you do what you have to do, to cope, like all trauma survivors. but he's a bad person, he has done some of the worst things a man can do in life, he did it all by himself. you didn't help. you survived; you didn't collaborate. and if thinking about that too much makes you sick or makes you cry, stop. you don't have to think about this in a way that makes you feel worse. you don't have to go over the 'right way' of thinking about it if it makes you feel worse. you don't have to feel righteous and angry about it or pretend to have emotions you can't come up with. but all of it was his fault and none of it was your fault.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:53 PM on January 26, 2018 [20 favorites]
You realize this is a type? It's a type so common as to be a type in literature. Read Kingsley Amis' the Anti-Death League, the part where the protagonist's lover is finally able to bring herself to tell him about what she's been through, about the ex-husband who got more and more excited about her expressions of pain until the day he raped her on the stairs when she has an abscessed tooth. I am a little surprised more people here are not spotting this.
I am more sorry than I can say that your husband had this rot at his core. You are incredibly strong and brave for getting out of there, because a very common outcome is for men like this to destroy their partners. You are amazing for getting out of there and I am in awe of your strength.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:57 PM on January 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
I am more sorry than I can say that your husband had this rot at his core. You are incredibly strong and brave for getting out of there, because a very common outcome is for men like this to destroy their partners. You are amazing for getting out of there and I am in awe of your strength.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:57 PM on January 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
No. I think when you come from a culture that disapproves of sex outside marriage you often get this dynamic where young men push for sex and young women have to say no. But they don't really want to say no, they just don't want to end up pregnant or outcast. So he took advantage of your cultural conditioning to think that no doesn't really mean no when it comes to the guy you marry, that no is only a temporary state that a man can overcome with persistence, bribes or that old classic: emotional blackmail. Because: love. But your husband never saw you as a true partner, just as someone who's opinions and objections could be overcome. I bet even in your traditional culture most marriages are peaceful and the partners have mutual respect and one is not living in fear of the other.
So no, you didn't allow him to abuse you, he did that all on his own. Would you have left sooner or been more aware if you were raised in the west? I don't know- a lot of women here have the same issues. Maybe if you hadn't gone into the marriage in an unequal kind of way (your reputation was more at risk than his) it might have helped but really I think he's just a person who does not respect women and does not respect that they have agency outside of his wants and needs. Maybe this is his parent's fault or maybe he was just born without proper human emotions. But you left him which is the only thing you can do-- you can't change him and you can't go back in time so don't beat yourself up over things another person did. It's not your fault.
posted by fshgrl at 8:24 PM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
So no, you didn't allow him to abuse you, he did that all on his own. Would you have left sooner or been more aware if you were raised in the west? I don't know- a lot of women here have the same issues. Maybe if you hadn't gone into the marriage in an unequal kind of way (your reputation was more at risk than his) it might have helped but really I think he's just a person who does not respect women and does not respect that they have agency outside of his wants and needs. Maybe this is his parent's fault or maybe he was just born without proper human emotions. But you left him which is the only thing you can do-- you can't change him and you can't go back in time so don't beat yourself up over things another person did. It's not your fault.
posted by fshgrl at 8:24 PM on January 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
A lot of heterosexual porn gratifies the pain of women. He could have learned it there, the way a lot of men learn to normalize/enjoy the pain of women during sex.
Yes, he is horrible. You did not have the tools to get out in the past, but you will soon. Yes, I have encountered glimmers of this in some men I have dated, and I have had to actively point out to them that it is perverse. Now that I think about it, he's probably a sadist and doesn't fully realize it.
posted by thesockpuppet at 9:18 PM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yes, he is horrible. You did not have the tools to get out in the past, but you will soon. Yes, I have encountered glimmers of this in some men I have dated, and I have had to actively point out to them that it is perverse. Now that I think about it, he's probably a sadist and doesn't fully realize it.
posted by thesockpuppet at 9:18 PM on January 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I think I'm struggling with seeing my ex as a "bad person."
I say this as a fellow survivor: stop trying to do this, because NOBODY is a total asshole 24/7, and that's right up there as a top reason we don't leave our abusers. Sometimes they're really fun and make jokes and they do nice things.
Ultimately, the truest and best thing you can do for yourself is give yourself the gift of NOT TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF HIS BEHAVIOR. Don't do it. A big reason to get out of this rabbit hole is first, you won't really ever know what exactly was ticking in his nasty little brain.
But the biggest reason to stop trying to make sense of his total bullshit behavior is because he doesn't get the honor of living in your head any more. Cute kitties and puppies and long hikes and cooking delicious food and trying new red Chilean wines and taking a metalworking class and watching "Stranger Things" until you can recite it by memory--those are the things that get to live in your head. The things YOU CHOOSE to fill your brain get to reside with you.
I know it's hard but telling that part of your brain that so desperately wants to make sense of that experience--that part that needs to make it right--to just shut up because friend, you got a whole lot of living to do, and you can't do it with this miserable ghost in your mind. Exorcise this ghost. Don't let him have any more power over your life. You got this.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:34 AM on January 27, 2018 [26 favorites]
I say this as a fellow survivor: stop trying to do this, because NOBODY is a total asshole 24/7, and that's right up there as a top reason we don't leave our abusers. Sometimes they're really fun and make jokes and they do nice things.
Ultimately, the truest and best thing you can do for yourself is give yourself the gift of NOT TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF HIS BEHAVIOR. Don't do it. A big reason to get out of this rabbit hole is first, you won't really ever know what exactly was ticking in his nasty little brain.
But the biggest reason to stop trying to make sense of his total bullshit behavior is because he doesn't get the honor of living in your head any more. Cute kitties and puppies and long hikes and cooking delicious food and trying new red Chilean wines and taking a metalworking class and watching "Stranger Things" until you can recite it by memory--those are the things that get to live in your head. The things YOU CHOOSE to fill your brain get to reside with you.
I know it's hard but telling that part of your brain that so desperately wants to make sense of that experience--that part that needs to make it right--to just shut up because friend, you got a whole lot of living to do, and you can't do it with this miserable ghost in your mind. Exorcise this ghost. Don't let him have any more power over your life. You got this.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 4:34 AM on January 27, 2018 [26 favorites]
Best answer: I just wanted to point out --
> "He basically flipped from 'fun boyfriend' to 'paternalistic taskmaster' in the time it took for the ink to dry on our marriage certificate."
He knew how to behave without being abusive. He stopped doing so as soon as he thought he no longer had to. It was a choice.
He knew.
posted by kyrademon at 6:04 AM on January 27, 2018 [29 favorites]
> "He basically flipped from 'fun boyfriend' to 'paternalistic taskmaster' in the time it took for the ink to dry on our marriage certificate."
He knew how to behave without being abusive. He stopped doing so as soon as he thought he no longer had to. It was a choice.
He knew.
posted by kyrademon at 6:04 AM on January 27, 2018 [29 favorites]
Best answer: > Upthread, there was one person who wrote, "I read what you wrote very carefully," and for some reason that brings me to tears. Thank you all for reading. Thank you all for writing all of this out. I'm reading everything over and over. It's just one of those days, I think, I haven't had one of these in a while.
This is it, a core human need, you tried to communicate and be seen, but for all those years you weren't seen or heard at all. He didn't even try or seemed to enjoy to pretend he hadn't heard you.
I wish you many more days of being really heard and seen, and having people try to!
posted by Litehouse at 2:44 PM on January 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
This is it, a core human need, you tried to communicate and be seen, but for all those years you weren't seen or heard at all. He didn't even try or seemed to enjoy to pretend he hadn't heard you.
I wish you many more days of being really heard and seen, and having people try to!
posted by Litehouse at 2:44 PM on January 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
It sounds like all you want is someone who will at least try to respect your wants and needs after they hear them stated in plain English. That's a shockingly high standard, compared to where most of the people in this world fall, for lots of reasons--but it is still the standard. It's what separates a relationship from, I don't know, some guy ordering you around.
So a lot of deeply unsettling systems contributed to making this guy what he is now. You can spend days trying to figure out if you had any chance of making him into, you know, something else. In the end, who cares? One way or another, he is not someone you can live with, and that doesn't seem likely to change. You can guilt-trip later to your heart's content, once you're safely away from all this.
Now for the hard part. I note that you're from an Asian culture, currently living in the U.S., presumably female. You might have to go through a lot of dudes before you find one who meets that standard I mentioned earlier (regardless of which races you're "allowed" to bring home, btw; your odds are poor all around). You had best make your peace with that now. Use whatever brainpower you're focusing on guilting yourself to instead figure out what it is you want (which might or might not be another guy), and how many idiots you're willing to go through in order to find it if it is, and what you can even afford to do without getting yourself disowned or whatever.
May the odds be ever in your favor.
posted by queen anne's remorse at 5:05 PM on January 27, 2018
So a lot of deeply unsettling systems contributed to making this guy what he is now. You can spend days trying to figure out if you had any chance of making him into, you know, something else. In the end, who cares? One way or another, he is not someone you can live with, and that doesn't seem likely to change. You can guilt-trip later to your heart's content, once you're safely away from all this.
Now for the hard part. I note that you're from an Asian culture, currently living in the U.S., presumably female. You might have to go through a lot of dudes before you find one who meets that standard I mentioned earlier (regardless of which races you're "allowed" to bring home, btw; your odds are poor all around). You had best make your peace with that now. Use whatever brainpower you're focusing on guilting yourself to instead figure out what it is you want (which might or might not be another guy), and how many idiots you're willing to go through in order to find it if it is, and what you can even afford to do without getting yourself disowned or whatever.
May the odds be ever in your favor.
posted by queen anne's remorse at 5:05 PM on January 27, 2018
I literally asked for it
No, you literally did not. Unless you explicitly told him "please abuse me and treat me like shit", your statement is not true.
Think about this:
If I have a pile of gold coins, and I show them to someone in my outstretched hand. Someone who snatches them from my hand is just as guilty of theft as someone who stole them had I kept them concealed and locked away.
My actions may have increased the risk of theft, but that still doesn't make the thief any less of the thief.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 5:17 PM on January 28, 2018
No, you literally did not. Unless you explicitly told him "please abuse me and treat me like shit", your statement is not true.
Think about this:
If I have a pile of gold coins, and I show them to someone in my outstretched hand. Someone who snatches them from my hand is just as guilty of theft as someone who stole them had I kept them concealed and locked away.
My actions may have increased the risk of theft, but that still doesn't make the thief any less of the thief.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 5:17 PM on January 28, 2018
Best answer: This may sound strange, but try to show your (ex)husband respect and to see things from his perspective. Please read the following list of the things he did without looking for reasons why he did them, but simply as a summary of some of his actions towards you, his wife.
When I say 'show him respect', I mean grant him adult intelligence and self-awareness. For you to believe that he genuinely thought you didn't mean it when you said "no", you must also believe that he lacks fundamental reasoning skills and is unable to deal with basic human communication. But as Lyn Never pointed out above, if he was able to navigate the world outside your house without being regularly arrested or fired, this clearly isn't the case. Other answers have eloquently shown why you are not at fault from your perspective; it is equally damning to look at the situation from his perspective.
posted by Busy Old Fool at 4:10 PM on January 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
- He would yell at you for hours and not talk to you for days. He used anger to control you. He would mark the ends of these periods of hurting you by having sex and he would claim to be turned on by you crying out of relief that he was no longer actively angry at you. When you objected to him being aroused by your tears, he would return to his anger until you acquiesced and let him have intercourse with you without expressing your feelings.
- He discovered that you said you detested a sex act and regularly pressured you into it. You made your dislike of it clear beforehand and expressed no enthusiasm for it at any point. Your body would sometimes shake after this sex act you hated and he would claim you were experiencing pleasure. You corrected him, but he argued with you about the feelings you were experiencing until you stopped responding.
- Finally he had intercourse with you while you repeatedly said "no", "stop" and crying. You told him to stop and then, in pain and confusion, apologised to him. He accepted your apology, implying that he agreed you were in the wrong.
When I say 'show him respect', I mean grant him adult intelligence and self-awareness. For you to believe that he genuinely thought you didn't mean it when you said "no", you must also believe that he lacks fundamental reasoning skills and is unable to deal with basic human communication. But as Lyn Never pointed out above, if he was able to navigate the world outside your house without being regularly arrested or fired, this clearly isn't the case. Other answers have eloquently shown why you are not at fault from your perspective; it is equally damning to look at the situation from his perspective.
posted by Busy Old Fool at 4:10 PM on January 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
He knew.
posted by inexorably_forward at 1:37 PM on January 26, 2018 [73 favorites]