Is my puppy too mean to my older dog?
January 24, 2018 3:38 PM Subscribe
Sparky is 4 and Pearl is almost 5 months. We have had her since she was 8 weeks old. She is a VERY happy and confident puppy and loves to play all day with spark. Before Pearl he was very sedentary and now he is much more active and has gained muscle and eats more. Most of their play seems healthy - bouncing around together; sitting side by side with their mouths open and whining at each other while snapping their jaws; sparky "dropping" a toy so pearl can take it away and then stealing it back, etc. The problem is that I worry that pearl is too rough with sparky and he is too submissive to assert himself.
For example - he lets her bite his ears and his face and neck and legs until he yelps in pain, and one second later she is back gnawing at his leg. He will never seriously snap at her and I think he should because it seems like she is actually hurting him and she once left a superficial cut on his ear. Sometimes when it seems like sparky is "just taking it" my husband will take her face in his hands and say "NO" and she will stop for a few minutes. But shouldn't sparky be doing this on his own?
Also when we feed them sparky always has to wait for pearl to finish, she is not food aggressive but will just muscle him out of the way until she is done, same with water. My husband says that as long as she doesn't snap at sparky when he tries to eat, or at us if we try to take her food away or get close to her while she's eating then it's fine, but is it?
If it's relevant - sparky is an intact 110 lb male Rhodesian and pearl is a 60 lb female Rhodesian. I am especially worried because we anticipate she will be bigger than sparky when full grown, her mom was 130 lbs and she is already huge and muscular for her age. She plays fine with neighborhood dogs according to my husband, I haven't really witnessed it. I'm Not so worried that she will injure another dog out of nowhere, but I am worried that she will be bitten by a dog because she is ignoring the "Leave me alone" signals.
Also sometimes sparky has been a target at the dog park because of his balls and was once seriously attacked by an aggressive jack russell who wouldn't let go of him until I literally booted him, sparky just cowered and didn't do anything and he was fine. I worry that if pearl were to be the target of an aggressive dog she might seriously injure it and then we would lose her. But I don't know if that's a valid worry based on her behavior.
Is this valid? Does her behavior sound normal? If not what can I do to facilitate nicer behavior towards spark? What are the signs to look out that she is too aggressive to other dogs?
For example - he lets her bite his ears and his face and neck and legs until he yelps in pain, and one second later she is back gnawing at his leg. He will never seriously snap at her and I think he should because it seems like she is actually hurting him and she once left a superficial cut on his ear. Sometimes when it seems like sparky is "just taking it" my husband will take her face in his hands and say "NO" and she will stop for a few minutes. But shouldn't sparky be doing this on his own?
Also when we feed them sparky always has to wait for pearl to finish, she is not food aggressive but will just muscle him out of the way until she is done, same with water. My husband says that as long as she doesn't snap at sparky when he tries to eat, or at us if we try to take her food away or get close to her while she's eating then it's fine, but is it?
If it's relevant - sparky is an intact 110 lb male Rhodesian and pearl is a 60 lb female Rhodesian. I am especially worried because we anticipate she will be bigger than sparky when full grown, her mom was 130 lbs and she is already huge and muscular for her age. She plays fine with neighborhood dogs according to my husband, I haven't really witnessed it. I'm Not so worried that she will injure another dog out of nowhere, but I am worried that she will be bitten by a dog because she is ignoring the "Leave me alone" signals.
Also sometimes sparky has been a target at the dog park because of his balls and was once seriously attacked by an aggressive jack russell who wouldn't let go of him until I literally booted him, sparky just cowered and didn't do anything and he was fine. I worry that if pearl were to be the target of an aggressive dog she might seriously injure it and then we would lose her. But I don't know if that's a valid worry based on her behavior.
Is this valid? Does her behavior sound normal? If not what can I do to facilitate nicer behavior towards spark? What are the signs to look out that she is too aggressive to other dogs?
It's not crazy concerning, but it's worth keeping an eye on. You certainly don't have to let Pearl eat first. I would feed Sparky while physically preventing Pearl from getting the food or water. That may help correct the power imbalance, and also make clear that you control food, not her.
Yelping is a way for a dog to ask another dog to back off and it sounds like she is backing off in the moment but then returning to the fray. Has she been to any puppy school? She's just about old enough now and it really might help.
By the way, I don't know what your reasons may be, but, honestly, an intact Rhodesian male at the dog park is a recipe for disaster. Sparky sounds like a lovely fellow (where is the dog tax?), but any intact male is likely to draw aggression, and even in innocent self-defense a dog as big and strong as Sparky could seriously injure a dog attacking him. My friend had an intact Rhodesian male for a while, and it was a recurring issue.
posted by praemunire at 3:44 PM on January 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
Yelping is a way for a dog to ask another dog to back off and it sounds like she is backing off in the moment but then returning to the fray. Has she been to any puppy school? She's just about old enough now and it really might help.
By the way, I don't know what your reasons may be, but, honestly, an intact Rhodesian male at the dog park is a recipe for disaster. Sparky sounds like a lovely fellow (where is the dog tax?), but any intact male is likely to draw aggression, and even in innocent self-defense a dog as big and strong as Sparky could seriously injure a dog attacking him. My friend had an intact Rhodesian male for a while, and it was a recurring issue.
posted by praemunire at 3:44 PM on January 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: We are actually going to get spark neutered this year. My husband was wary of it but you are right, we no longer bring him to the dog park for this reason and we are thinking it is now in his best interest.
posted by pintapicasso at 3:49 PM on January 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by pintapicasso at 3:49 PM on January 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
Yes it’s normal, yes work on making sure she knows you’re the boss regarding food etc.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:24 PM on January 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:24 PM on January 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: He will get less tolerant as she gets older. And the yelping is ok, they do that to teach puppies to back off. As long as he's not avoiding her or hiding or miserable and he gets some alone time and Pearl does OK with other dogs I wouldn't worry too much. I'd definitely train and socialize her as much as possible though as a bossy female of that size is going to be a handful no matter what.
I have an older female dog who'll teach her some manners I can rent to you for a very reasonable fee ;). She's raised tow Malinois puppies and takes no shit at all. But even the grumpy old lady is pretty tolerant of puppies that age. She really gets strict once they hit 8 months or so.
posted by fshgrl at 4:56 PM on January 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
I have an older female dog who'll teach her some manners I can rent to you for a very reasonable fee ;). She's raised tow Malinois puppies and takes no shit at all. But even the grumpy old lady is pretty tolerant of puppies that age. She really gets strict once they hit 8 months or so.
posted by fshgrl at 4:56 PM on January 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
Best answer: I am hardly a dog expert, this is just from observing my own dog. He despises puppies and yet is very tolerant of them up until about the age yours is. As they get older he ramps up the manners enforcement and the puppies have all gotten the idea eventually. The puppies seem to go through a stage of repeatedly pestering the adult dogs until they get snapped at or a yelp before they figure out where that line is.
posted by sepviva at 5:13 PM on January 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by sepviva at 5:13 PM on January 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
Best answer: IME adult dogs are incredibly tolerant of puppies, just as adult humans let little kids get away with stuff they would never permit even an older child. And keep in mind that when Sparky yelps, it's probably more for effect than an expression of pain as he's undoubtedly taken on some of the job of civilizing Pearl.
As others have said, I wouldn't worry too much about Pearl's behavior at this point but be aware that she has the potential for crossing boundaries with other dogs. This means keeping an eye on her when she interacts with dogs other than Sparky, to see if she is overly aggressive with them or plays as roughly with other dogs as she does with her buddy Sparky.
posted by DrGail at 5:14 PM on January 24, 2018
As others have said, I wouldn't worry too much about Pearl's behavior at this point but be aware that she has the potential for crossing boundaries with other dogs. This means keeping an eye on her when she interacts with dogs other than Sparky, to see if she is overly aggressive with them or plays as roughly with other dogs as she does with her buddy Sparky.
posted by DrGail at 5:14 PM on January 24, 2018
Best answer: Adult dogs are usually very tolerant - indulgent even! - of young puppies. That's a thing. And actually, the letting her gnaw on him until she bites too hard is good training behavior and something dogs are supposed to do with puppies (and that humans are advised to do with puppies as well). It teaches the puppies not to bite too hard, which is of course an important lesson.
The biggest thing I would look for is if Spark tries to move away and Pearl follows him, and Spark doesn't let her know to back off. That would be a red flag.
As for the food issues: I have a friend with three dogs of multiple ages. She's taught them a lot of discipline around mealtime and I think it helps, as two of them have had resource guarding issues in the past. Basically, each dog has its own bowl. They have to sit before the bowl is put down and they are corrected if they try to eat from another dog's bowl. You have to watch them closely at first but they will learn these rules quickly.
Definitely enroll Pearl in puppy class if you can. But this all sounds fine.
posted by lunasol at 5:40 PM on January 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
The biggest thing I would look for is if Spark tries to move away and Pearl follows him, and Spark doesn't let her know to back off. That would be a red flag.
As for the food issues: I have a friend with three dogs of multiple ages. She's taught them a lot of discipline around mealtime and I think it helps, as two of them have had resource guarding issues in the past. Basically, each dog has its own bowl. They have to sit before the bowl is put down and they are corrected if they try to eat from another dog's bowl. You have to watch them closely at first but they will learn these rules quickly.
Definitely enroll Pearl in puppy class if you can. But this all sounds fine.
posted by lunasol at 5:40 PM on January 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: more on the biting: it's actually better for both dogs and people to let puppies bite softly and correct them/yelp only when they bite hard than it is to correct all biting. Because the soft mouthing is a normal puppy behavior, and if you discourage all mouthing, they will never learn a soft bite. There's a danger there that when they are adults, they may find themselves in perceived danger and go right to hard biting, which could cause real damage. So Spark is doing Pearl a solid here.
posted by lunasol at 5:43 PM on January 24, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by lunasol at 5:43 PM on January 24, 2018 [14 favorites]
Best answer: Dogs generally speak dog better than we do, and are pretty good at getting along.
What's likely going on here is that Pearl has the Dreaded Combination of the puppy get out of jail free card AND the girl get out of jail free card. I expect Sparky will put the smackdown on her eventually, and likely appropriately.
That said, I would be feeding Pearl in a crate, and not letting them pester each other when they eat. In any multi dog household, you want to minimize opportunities for conflict, and resources like food are a classic conflict source. Who eats first is one of those things that some people think matters and some people don't - I personally don't think who eats first matters, but what really matters is that nobody is harassing anybody else while eating. In my house, puppies eat in crates unless I'm training them with their meals (which is usually at least one meal a day), until they learn the house rule, which is that everybody stays until released to their bowl, and nobody is allowed to get close to another dog's bowl until the bowl's owner has walked away. This not only keeps the puppy from being a jerk to the other dogs, it helps the puppy learn to like the crate (my dogs will all cram into a crate together if it's open at mealtimes).
I would intervene somewhat if you think she's being too bitey with him, but I'd simply distract her and do something with her. That said, dogs are masters of getting along, in my opinion, we tend to interfere too much and the interference often causes more problems than it solves. You have opposite sex/different age dogs, the likelihood of them getting along long term is extremely high. I would not be doing the face grabbing and "no" shouting stuff, no is a useless word, tell the dog what TO do, not what not to do. And grabbing her face and yelling is extremely aggressive and excessive for a 5 month old puppy. Simply distract her and get her to do something else - play with a toy, go in a crate with a stuffed Kong or chewy, something. You wouldn't grab and yell at a 4 year old child would you? She's a baby, she needs training and management, not shouting and punishment.
I would up her exercise and training, because a tired puppy (mentally and physically) has less energy for being annoying, but I would bet that they will be just fine. Male dogs with female puppies tend to be rather more tolerant than a female adult dog would be, but it's very likely that Sparky will stand up for himself when he feels the time has come to do so. My rule in my multi-dog house is that as long as nobody's bleeding, actually seriously biting, or breaking my rules about stealing food, I let them work things out. Dogs speak better dog than we do, I'm a crazy dog lady, I work with animals for a living, I participate in competitive dog sports, in short dogs are pretty much my hobby and my life, I'm a dog behavior and body language nerd, and I still know that what I know is probably 1% of what dogs know about each other.
posted by biscotti at 5:51 PM on January 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
What's likely going on here is that Pearl has the Dreaded Combination of the puppy get out of jail free card AND the girl get out of jail free card. I expect Sparky will put the smackdown on her eventually, and likely appropriately.
That said, I would be feeding Pearl in a crate, and not letting them pester each other when they eat. In any multi dog household, you want to minimize opportunities for conflict, and resources like food are a classic conflict source. Who eats first is one of those things that some people think matters and some people don't - I personally don't think who eats first matters, but what really matters is that nobody is harassing anybody else while eating. In my house, puppies eat in crates unless I'm training them with their meals (which is usually at least one meal a day), until they learn the house rule, which is that everybody stays until released to their bowl, and nobody is allowed to get close to another dog's bowl until the bowl's owner has walked away. This not only keeps the puppy from being a jerk to the other dogs, it helps the puppy learn to like the crate (my dogs will all cram into a crate together if it's open at mealtimes).
I would intervene somewhat if you think she's being too bitey with him, but I'd simply distract her and do something with her. That said, dogs are masters of getting along, in my opinion, we tend to interfere too much and the interference often causes more problems than it solves. You have opposite sex/different age dogs, the likelihood of them getting along long term is extremely high. I would not be doing the face grabbing and "no" shouting stuff, no is a useless word, tell the dog what TO do, not what not to do. And grabbing her face and yelling is extremely aggressive and excessive for a 5 month old puppy. Simply distract her and get her to do something else - play with a toy, go in a crate with a stuffed Kong or chewy, something. You wouldn't grab and yell at a 4 year old child would you? She's a baby, she needs training and management, not shouting and punishment.
I would up her exercise and training, because a tired puppy (mentally and physically) has less energy for being annoying, but I would bet that they will be just fine. Male dogs with female puppies tend to be rather more tolerant than a female adult dog would be, but it's very likely that Sparky will stand up for himself when he feels the time has come to do so. My rule in my multi-dog house is that as long as nobody's bleeding, actually seriously biting, or breaking my rules about stealing food, I let them work things out. Dogs speak better dog than we do, I'm a crazy dog lady, I work with animals for a living, I participate in competitive dog sports, in short dogs are pretty much my hobby and my life, I'm a dog behavior and body language nerd, and I still know that what I know is probably 1% of what dogs know about each other.
posted by biscotti at 5:51 PM on January 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
This all sounds fine but puppy socialization classes are almost never a bad idea. Also, if she's being bossy about food I would make her sit for her dinner and give them some space between bowls. If you can pick up her bowl while she's eating, though, all is well.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:12 PM on January 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 6:12 PM on January 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
I take my lab to doggy daycare sometimes, which might be great for Pearl - a whole pack to teach her manners! A puppy once bit my dog’s ear a la Pearl and Spark - it bled like crazy (sharp teeth), but my girl was fine and played the day away. I think the doggo school/socializing for her is key but it should turn out fine.
posted by OneSmartMonkey at 6:23 PM on January 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by OneSmartMonkey at 6:23 PM on January 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It sounds perfectly normal to me, but biscotti and Darling Bri are right on for avoiding future problems. There will also be a weird patch when she gets big enough to push to be the boss and Spark may have to decide whether or not to let her - I’d be extra careful watching them when she reaches her full growth.
Male dogs are very much sort of "fun dad" with puppies, if that helps you put what you’re seeing in a people context.
posted by winna at 6:33 PM on January 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Male dogs are very much sort of "fun dad" with puppies, if that helps you put what you’re seeing in a people context.
posted by winna at 6:33 PM on January 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: My sister is currently going through months of supervised playtime since she added a new dog to her home--she had similar issues to what you describe.
She said what really worked best was the dogs could only have "supervised" playtime, when they were basically ignored if they were chilling out but the second they start romping, she keeps calling them for sitting and treats to get them to pay attention back to her. So what happens is when they play, they get used to watching her and the pup doesn't go quite so bananas.
The second the younger dog does get a bit more aggressive or even a bit too playful, they immediately get a time out and the pup goes into his cage or his bed, and both dogs get stuffed Kongs to occupy them individually.
It's been a lot of work for her but it has made a massive difference in the dogs playing well together and the puppy not going overboard.
And I think as far as other dogs, your best bet is going to be a puppy class where she learns to play nicely with others and to listen to you.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 6:53 AM on January 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
She said what really worked best was the dogs could only have "supervised" playtime, when they were basically ignored if they were chilling out but the second they start romping, she keeps calling them for sitting and treats to get them to pay attention back to her. So what happens is when they play, they get used to watching her and the pup doesn't go quite so bananas.
The second the younger dog does get a bit more aggressive or even a bit too playful, they immediately get a time out and the pup goes into his cage or his bed, and both dogs get stuffed Kongs to occupy them individually.
It's been a lot of work for her but it has made a massive difference in the dogs playing well together and the puppy not going overboard.
And I think as far as other dogs, your best bet is going to be a puppy class where she learns to play nicely with others and to listen to you.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 6:53 AM on January 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Update - Pearl is now 8 months and has mellowed out considerably in her “old age”.
Everyone who advised me to give it a minute until she got a bit bigger was right on. Pearl is now 90 lbs and Sparky has been increasingly putting her in her place. He was totally giving her a “puppy pass” when she was littler and now he doesn’t tolerate it. Pearl is responding well!
Thanks again all.
posted by pintapicasso at 10:12 AM on May 5, 2018
Everyone who advised me to give it a minute until she got a bit bigger was right on. Pearl is now 90 lbs and Sparky has been increasingly putting her in her place. He was totally giving her a “puppy pass” when she was littler and now he doesn’t tolerate it. Pearl is responding well!
Thanks again all.
posted by pintapicasso at 10:12 AM on May 5, 2018
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