I seem to be drawn to very controlling, unkind men. How do I stop this?
January 24, 2018 9:39 AM Subscribe
I have a history of emotionally abusive relationships and I've been working hard to change my patterns. Therapy, self-help, mindfulness and self-care don't seem to be working. What else can I try?
About 2yrs/18 months ago my emotionally abusive boyfriend of 5 years broke up with me, I lost my job and had kind of a breakdown.
I'm pretty much back on my feet- seeing a therapist, doing pretty well in a new job, coming off anti-depressants, and I started dating again.
Last week I ended things with a guy I was seeing for about 5 months because he seemed to enjoy crossing my sexual boundaries and became extremely angry and defensive when I tried to talk to him about it.
On the one hand, I'm glad I ended it after only a few months of transgressive, manipulative, unkind behaviour- these things usually take me years to get out of.
On the other hand, I feel almost in despair that I hunted out someone even more cruel and dangerous than my previous crappy exes.
My therapist says this is because of my low self esteem, but I've been working on this in therapy for almost 2 years. Will it ever get better? In addition to therapy I've taken up mediation, lost weight, exercise regularly, done a course in self-compassion, read self-help books, opened up to friends. But still the first guy I seek out is abusive.
I also feel (perhaps irrationally) angry with my therapist- he was the one who identified my past relationships as abusive and knows I have a tendency to doubt my instincts and my own perception of things. I was telling my therapist about really red flag behaviour as it was happening (this guy essentially crossed a lot of my sexual boundaries and blamed me for communicating badly). At one point I was ready to walk away because his behaviour was scary and upsetting, but my therapist advised me to get in touch with him and reopen the conversation because we obviously had a connection and that 'people aren't all good or bad'.
Obviously it was my choice to follow that advice but I feel like I could have avoided about 3 months of crushing, traumatising bullshit if my therapist had encouraged me to trust my judgement instead of give this guy another chance to sexually assault me again, which he did.
I told this to my therapist yesterday and he was empathetic and apologetic and said that perhaps it was too soon for me to date.
I didn't date at all for nearly 2 years after my last break up and really tried to focus on taking care of myself and getting stronger. I have no problem being single- I'd be happy to take another prolonged break from dating but I'm a 34 year old woman who wants kids. I don't have forever to sort this out.
I just don't know what to do. I feel like I've tried everything and I'm still a mess and I'm struggling not to despair.
I guess my questions are:
What else can I do to change the type of man I'm attracted to, and/or improve my self-esteem so I don't stick around in these soul destroying relationships?
Have you managed to change your attraction or relationship patterns to be healthier?
Is there a way I could be getting more out of therapy? How?
Are there any role models of kind, open, emotionally healthy men in media/TV/films/books that I can study? I feel like if I had a bit of a template I might be able to recognise these qualities in the wild.
Thanks for your time.
About 2yrs/18 months ago my emotionally abusive boyfriend of 5 years broke up with me, I lost my job and had kind of a breakdown.
I'm pretty much back on my feet- seeing a therapist, doing pretty well in a new job, coming off anti-depressants, and I started dating again.
Last week I ended things with a guy I was seeing for about 5 months because he seemed to enjoy crossing my sexual boundaries and became extremely angry and defensive when I tried to talk to him about it.
On the one hand, I'm glad I ended it after only a few months of transgressive, manipulative, unkind behaviour- these things usually take me years to get out of.
On the other hand, I feel almost in despair that I hunted out someone even more cruel and dangerous than my previous crappy exes.
My therapist says this is because of my low self esteem, but I've been working on this in therapy for almost 2 years. Will it ever get better? In addition to therapy I've taken up mediation, lost weight, exercise regularly, done a course in self-compassion, read self-help books, opened up to friends. But still the first guy I seek out is abusive.
I also feel (perhaps irrationally) angry with my therapist- he was the one who identified my past relationships as abusive and knows I have a tendency to doubt my instincts and my own perception of things. I was telling my therapist about really red flag behaviour as it was happening (this guy essentially crossed a lot of my sexual boundaries and blamed me for communicating badly). At one point I was ready to walk away because his behaviour was scary and upsetting, but my therapist advised me to get in touch with him and reopen the conversation because we obviously had a connection and that 'people aren't all good or bad'.
Obviously it was my choice to follow that advice but I feel like I could have avoided about 3 months of crushing, traumatising bullshit if my therapist had encouraged me to trust my judgement instead of give this guy another chance to sexually assault me again, which he did.
I told this to my therapist yesterday and he was empathetic and apologetic and said that perhaps it was too soon for me to date.
I didn't date at all for nearly 2 years after my last break up and really tried to focus on taking care of myself and getting stronger. I have no problem being single- I'd be happy to take another prolonged break from dating but I'm a 34 year old woman who wants kids. I don't have forever to sort this out.
I just don't know what to do. I feel like I've tried everything and I'm still a mess and I'm struggling not to despair.
I guess my questions are:
What else can I do to change the type of man I'm attracted to, and/or improve my self-esteem so I don't stick around in these soul destroying relationships?
Have you managed to change your attraction or relationship patterns to be healthier?
Is there a way I could be getting more out of therapy? How?
Are there any role models of kind, open, emotionally healthy men in media/TV/films/books that I can study? I feel like if I had a bit of a template I might be able to recognise these qualities in the wild.
Thanks for your time.
Best answer: It sounds to my like you’re changing the pattern by evaluating the last guys behavior and getting out of the relationship. You should be really proud of yourself! I think the way you avoid these bad men/relationships is by trusting your own instincts and learning that it’s ok not to give men the benefit of the doubt especially really early on.
I would probably however, look into changing therapists as it sounds like the one you’re seeing isn’t well versed in these kind of situations and for whatever reason isn’t backing you up the way he should.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 9:47 AM on January 24, 2018 [32 favorites]
I would probably however, look into changing therapists as it sounds like the one you’re seeing isn’t well versed in these kind of situations and for whatever reason isn’t backing you up the way he should.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 9:47 AM on January 24, 2018 [32 favorites]
I could've written this myself; I fully believe this is a fault of our narcissistic mememe generation and not of ourselves, and also an issue of sociology/western society's values.
I do take comfort in that, at least, each relationship has been somewhat *less* abusive, that I was able to indentify abuse on my own and leave sooner each time, and that at least a few of the men I've dated(not resulting in a relationship however) have been mostly good people.
Perhaps you even have a long-term friend or acquaintance you've overlooked as being suitable to get to know better, someone that's proven over time to not be abusive towards you is a better bet than the saturation of predators that online dating seems to offer these days.
posted by OnefortheLast at 9:56 AM on January 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I do take comfort in that, at least, each relationship has been somewhat *less* abusive, that I was able to indentify abuse on my own and leave sooner each time, and that at least a few of the men I've dated(not resulting in a relationship however) have been mostly good people.
Perhaps you even have a long-term friend or acquaintance you've overlooked as being suitable to get to know better, someone that's proven over time to not be abusive towards you is a better bet than the saturation of predators that online dating seems to offer these days.
posted by OnefortheLast at 9:56 AM on January 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I...this... I was ready to walk away because his behaviour was scary and upsetting, but my therapist advised me to get in touch with him and reopen the conversation because we obviously had a connection and that 'people aren't all good or bad'.
Fuck that therapist. I am so angry on your behalf. Oh my god, what a piece of shit. I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Don't see male therapists anymore. I know women can gaslight too but this is unacceptable. I would recommend looking for a therapist who works in some way in domestic violence, because they're savvy to manipulation and aren't, like, card-carrying agents of the patriarchy.
The "low self esteem" thing has not aged terribly well as a cultural concept and I would recommend going forward that you raise a red flag on any therapist that uses it either earnestly or as a weapon. I think another way to reframe that is as a combination of beaten-down standards and broken calibration on instinct and trust. If you increased your skepticism, choosing to not quite take people at face value until they have had time and opportunity to show you who they are. It's okay for you to watch and wait a little, knowing that everybody's trying to sell the best version of themselves and some people are trying to sell you an entirely imaginary product.
And even among people who mean well, not everybody is going to suit you - your personality, your goals in life, the way you want to live, the amount of stress you can handle from someone else's career/hobbies/family. It helps tremendously if you know what that looks like to you BEFORE you start seeing someone. In detail. A long checklist. Things like "respects my sexual boundaries" and "cares what my sexual boundaries are in the first place" but also things like "is looking for a long-haul relationship with children" and "has similar feelings about weeknight social activities" and "shares my general level of acceptable cleanliness" and "wants to be an active and involved parent or, if it doesn't work out, an engaged and cooperative co-parent."
Knowing what you want and knowing what suits your life, those are boundaries. If you list them and think about them and revisit them in your relationships with all kinds of people including your therapists and coworkers and even hobbies and lifestyle choices, they can become a trellis for your "self-esteem" and the documentation you use in exercising your instincts. Knowing that you have already decided to walk away if someone disrespects a boundary makes it much easier in the moment to see and feel and execute the decision, and to stand up to someone who tries to do a secondary stomping on that same boundary.
I know finding another therapist is never fun or easy, but I would bring up this incident in any initial consultation and draw a line under it. You need someone who is going to coach you in putting yourself first.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:05 AM on January 24, 2018 [63 favorites]
Fuck that therapist. I am so angry on your behalf. Oh my god, what a piece of shit. I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Don't see male therapists anymore. I know women can gaslight too but this is unacceptable. I would recommend looking for a therapist who works in some way in domestic violence, because they're savvy to manipulation and aren't, like, card-carrying agents of the patriarchy.
The "low self esteem" thing has not aged terribly well as a cultural concept and I would recommend going forward that you raise a red flag on any therapist that uses it either earnestly or as a weapon. I think another way to reframe that is as a combination of beaten-down standards and broken calibration on instinct and trust. If you increased your skepticism, choosing to not quite take people at face value until they have had time and opportunity to show you who they are. It's okay for you to watch and wait a little, knowing that everybody's trying to sell the best version of themselves and some people are trying to sell you an entirely imaginary product.
And even among people who mean well, not everybody is going to suit you - your personality, your goals in life, the way you want to live, the amount of stress you can handle from someone else's career/hobbies/family. It helps tremendously if you know what that looks like to you BEFORE you start seeing someone. In detail. A long checklist. Things like "respects my sexual boundaries" and "cares what my sexual boundaries are in the first place" but also things like "is looking for a long-haul relationship with children" and "has similar feelings about weeknight social activities" and "shares my general level of acceptable cleanliness" and "wants to be an active and involved parent or, if it doesn't work out, an engaged and cooperative co-parent."
Knowing what you want and knowing what suits your life, those are boundaries. If you list them and think about them and revisit them in your relationships with all kinds of people including your therapists and coworkers and even hobbies and lifestyle choices, they can become a trellis for your "self-esteem" and the documentation you use in exercising your instincts. Knowing that you have already decided to walk away if someone disrespects a boundary makes it much easier in the moment to see and feel and execute the decision, and to stand up to someone who tries to do a secondary stomping on that same boundary.
I know finding another therapist is never fun or easy, but I would bring up this incident in any initial consultation and draw a line under it. You need someone who is going to coach you in putting yourself first.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:05 AM on January 24, 2018 [63 favorites]
I will also add to consider that it is far easier to raise children as a single parent, than with a cruel/unkind partner. They've also the added benefit of being somewhat of a "filter"/ deterrent to men who have control issues.
posted by OnefortheLast at 10:08 AM on January 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by OnefortheLast at 10:08 AM on January 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
For me, it was about focusing on my longer term goals of what I want a relationship to look like rather than what felt good in the moment, although of course that is important, too. This meant I dated men I would have normally rejected, you know, nice guys that weren't exciting on the surface but had amazing qualities when I looked past physical attraction. You can find both intellectual and physical attraction in the same person, though, it's not one or the other but sometimes the physical attraction comes later rather than right away. Give nice guys a bigger chance and by all means don't settle for boring for the sake of nice. Tossing your last guy out sounds like huge progress, stay on that track and date as much as you want.
posted by waving at 10:33 AM on January 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by waving at 10:33 AM on January 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
So you were with your previous abusive ex for 5 years, and dumped this new abusive ex after 5 months? That sounds like a major improvement! I do hear you about your age w/r/t having children, so I understand the sense of being under a deadline. I just hope it doesn't lead you to not give yourself credit where credit is very due. These kinds of relationship habits usually are ingrained and tied to early relationship patterns, so please keep in mind that you're re-learning a lifetime's worth of relationship habits. Making the turnaround you have in <3 years is no small thing, and speaks well to the trajectory you're on.
As far as how to stop picking guys like this--that's trickier, but is still doable. One major thing will be to become aware, in-the-moment, of whatever traits/interactions/dynamics push the romantic attraction button for you, because it seems likely that they'd also be predictors for abusive men. I can't really say anything more specific in this kind of forum, which means it's really something to discuss with a therapist. Which leads me to:
You are not irrational for being angry at your therapist. It sounds like he made a legitimately poor judgment call on what he said. This on its own isn't necessarily a problem (all therapists are fallible humans, after all). But. What you said about his response is not encouraging, as advising you to just stop dating for a while--which you've already tried/been trying--sounds like more of an evasion for the sake of his own (dis)comfort, rather than your well-being. It's especially troubling since it's a misuse of his power as your therapist, and the last thing you need after your history of abuse is to be in a power-differentiated relationship where the more powerful party uses his power for his own benefit at your expense. It's important that a therapist who makes the same mistake is also willing to explore what happened and how it impacted your relationship, your sense of trust and safety in that relationship, particularly with your history. It'd be more than reasonable for you to let your current therapist know this, and start looking for a new one.
posted by obliterati at 10:34 AM on January 24, 2018 [15 favorites]
As far as how to stop picking guys like this--that's trickier, but is still doable. One major thing will be to become aware, in-the-moment, of whatever traits/interactions/dynamics push the romantic attraction button for you, because it seems likely that they'd also be predictors for abusive men. I can't really say anything more specific in this kind of forum, which means it's really something to discuss with a therapist. Which leads me to:
You are not irrational for being angry at your therapist. It sounds like he made a legitimately poor judgment call on what he said. This on its own isn't necessarily a problem (all therapists are fallible humans, after all). But. What you said about his response is not encouraging, as advising you to just stop dating for a while--which you've already tried/been trying--sounds like more of an evasion for the sake of his own (dis)comfort, rather than your well-being. It's especially troubling since it's a misuse of his power as your therapist, and the last thing you need after your history of abuse is to be in a power-differentiated relationship where the more powerful party uses his power for his own benefit at your expense. It's important that a therapist who makes the same mistake is also willing to explore what happened and how it impacted your relationship, your sense of trust and safety in that relationship, particularly with your history. It'd be more than reasonable for you to let your current therapist know this, and start looking for a new one.
posted by obliterati at 10:34 AM on January 24, 2018 [15 favorites]
Also, keep in mind that abusive men, as they get older, know what they are looking for. They actively try to cultivate women whose demeanor and conduct (shaped by years of abuse) suggest that they are vulnerable to exploitation. They will often screen out women who are assertive and shut down their boundary invasions early on. This is not to blame you AT ALL; rather, it's to say that it's considerably harder to avoid such men when they are literally out there looking for someone like you, so you shouldn't blame yourself for falling in with another one.
Figuring it out in five months is actually pretty good! That's a reasonable time period for anyone, absent the guy drowning a cat in front of you or something.
I agree with everyone who says you need to ditch this therapist tout suite.
posted by praemunire at 10:43 AM on January 24, 2018 [17 favorites]
Figuring it out in five months is actually pretty good! That's a reasonable time period for anyone, absent the guy drowning a cat in front of you or something.
I agree with everyone who says you need to ditch this therapist tout suite.
posted by praemunire at 10:43 AM on January 24, 2018 [17 favorites]
I'd go ahead and break up with your therapist. You absolutely need a therapist who is encouraging you to trust your gut and backing you up on this. Did you specifically tell your therapist you were angry at him? Did his comment that "perhaps it was too soon for [you] to date" come across in a victim blaming / undermining way that made you trust yourself less? You're there saying "I had the right instinct and you got me to question myself and not listen to myself, how can I trust you?" and his response is to say maybe you're not ready? It kinda sounds like you ARE ready if only you had a therapist who could help you listen to your own gut feeling about things. I think it's very understandable and appropriate to be angry at him. I think finding a new therapist makes a lot of sense. It's not that uncommon in my experience. Anyone can teach addition and subtraction, but you need someone more skilled once you're ready for algebra, and that sounds like what's gone on with you.
posted by salvia at 10:50 AM on January 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by salvia at 10:50 AM on January 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
Part of this pattern includes making others responsible for your decisions. Your therapist is not responsible for your decision here. He may very well have made a mistake (and it seems that he thinks that he did). It is okay to be angry him for that. However, you ultimately made the decision to stay with your ex.
Yes, but another piece is staying in inadequate relationships too long. Breaking up with the therapist could be the most educational, self-affirming part of this therapeutic relationship -- another chance to practice moving on from relationships where the other person's influence, if you let it in, causes you to doubt yourself or worse. You don't have to fix this therapist or work around his tendency to undermine you. You can just leave and find a new therapist.
posted by salvia at 10:54 AM on January 24, 2018 [20 favorites]
Yes, but another piece is staying in inadequate relationships too long. Breaking up with the therapist could be the most educational, self-affirming part of this therapeutic relationship -- another chance to practice moving on from relationships where the other person's influence, if you let it in, causes you to doubt yourself or worse. You don't have to fix this therapist or work around his tendency to undermine you. You can just leave and find a new therapist.
posted by salvia at 10:54 AM on January 24, 2018 [20 favorites]
I agree with Lyn Never. Don't just get another therapist, get a female therapist specifically. It doesn't guarantee that you won't be told to give abusive men another chance, but it lessens the likelihood. And I also agree that a therapist with experience or a specialty in dealing with domestic violence is a really great idea.
Your anger at your therapist is very rational. Please trust yourself on that.
posted by honey wheat at 10:56 AM on January 24, 2018 [19 favorites]
Your anger at your therapist is very rational. Please trust yourself on that.
posted by honey wheat at 10:56 AM on January 24, 2018 [19 favorites]
Best answer: You say:
I feel almost in despair that I hunted out someone even more cruel and dangerous than my previous crappy exes.
But I’m not quite sure that this is what you mean? With your recent ex, did you actually HUNT him out? Is that the most accurate statement on how you ended up with him? If you were to tell us the story of how you to ended up together, do you think this is the conclusion we would reach, that Dwardles sought high and low until she found the most abusive candidate and then she launched herself at him?
I bet that this is not what happened though. I bet you just met a guy in one of the many ways people meet each other, you got along/ liked each other, then you saw each other again, and again, until a few days/ weeks passed and you were an item. I bet he didn’t appear abusive right off the bat, and while maybe some light-orange flags reared their head early on, I wager it took a while before his controlling and boundary-crashing nature surfaced in the relationship.
If I’m getting the chronology right, about two months in you took your concerns to your therapist and he advised you to stick it out? It sounds like you were really tuned in to yourself there and were derailed by your therapist’s serious misstep. My feeling is that, left to your own judgement, you would have handled this situation perfectly, but then you therapist decided to press his grossly overreaching judgement on you, and that is when the situation followed the pattern you see now.
You ask:
What else can I do to change the type of man I'm attracted to, and/or improve my self-esteem so I don't stick around in these soul destroying relationships?
I’d be surprised to hear that you are genuinely only attracted to abusive men; like most of us, you probably feel INITIAL attraction to a wide range of people. It is possible, though, that this initial attraction mostly continues with men who turn out to be abusive. For these situations, I have two rather different answers:
1. Trust yourself, because it seems you are more than capable of discerning what is a good situation for you and what isn’t. It’s quite possible that if you come to truly trust yourself, you separate from people who are bad for you after your initial attraction, making space for someone more appropriate. I’d also say that it is not your self-esteem that is lacking (in fact, your self-esteem amongst other things signalled to you pretty early on that maybe not all is well with this relationship), but maybe to some extent your confidence in your capabilities and discernment, and this was further undermined by an incompetent therapist*. I’d say, let people go as soon as you feel a more than passing discomfort in their presence/ about them/ about your relationship with them, but don’t worry overly much about the fact that they came into your life in the first place. We let people in because of all sorts of initial factors, but we don’t have to let them stick around if they prove toxic to us.
2. I’d also look whether there are any commonalities between the men you are attracted to. For example, due to my childhood, I have, at times, felt a bit like I’m standing on the outside of the social world, not fully integrated and in need of protection, so I was insta-attracted to people who seemed at ease and who were protective of me. Sometimes, these traits hid abusive tendencies (protectiveness particularly can easily turn out to be the sunny side of a controlling personality), but my fixation on them was doing me a disservice anyway, mainly because it made me ignore other things that would have put me off if I’d paid attention.
So, I’d try to figure out if there is anything, any trait, that results in you feeling overwhelming attraction, thereby closing yourself off to other impressions about that person. I’ve seen people being over-attracted to erudition, worldliness, broodiness, adventurousness, even to people who are socially-minded, or very good at one particular thing. If you discover that you DO, in fact, have your own personality catnip, I’d reflect a bit on that, see how that could turn into relationship unpleasantness, and/ or what I am missing due to being lured in by this one thing. Seek to push it into the background, so that you can see the other parts of the person’s personality manifest themselves.
*I’m not saying that there are NO situation where it could be useful to remind someone that people are not all good or all bad – but it seems obvious that yours isn’t one of them.
posted by miorita at 11:00 AM on January 24, 2018 [14 favorites]
I feel almost in despair that I hunted out someone even more cruel and dangerous than my previous crappy exes.
But I’m not quite sure that this is what you mean? With your recent ex, did you actually HUNT him out? Is that the most accurate statement on how you ended up with him? If you were to tell us the story of how you to ended up together, do you think this is the conclusion we would reach, that Dwardles sought high and low until she found the most abusive candidate and then she launched herself at him?
I bet that this is not what happened though. I bet you just met a guy in one of the many ways people meet each other, you got along/ liked each other, then you saw each other again, and again, until a few days/ weeks passed and you were an item. I bet he didn’t appear abusive right off the bat, and while maybe some light-orange flags reared their head early on, I wager it took a while before his controlling and boundary-crashing nature surfaced in the relationship.
If I’m getting the chronology right, about two months in you took your concerns to your therapist and he advised you to stick it out? It sounds like you were really tuned in to yourself there and were derailed by your therapist’s serious misstep. My feeling is that, left to your own judgement, you would have handled this situation perfectly, but then you therapist decided to press his grossly overreaching judgement on you, and that is when the situation followed the pattern you see now.
You ask:
What else can I do to change the type of man I'm attracted to, and/or improve my self-esteem so I don't stick around in these soul destroying relationships?
I’d be surprised to hear that you are genuinely only attracted to abusive men; like most of us, you probably feel INITIAL attraction to a wide range of people. It is possible, though, that this initial attraction mostly continues with men who turn out to be abusive. For these situations, I have two rather different answers:
1. Trust yourself, because it seems you are more than capable of discerning what is a good situation for you and what isn’t. It’s quite possible that if you come to truly trust yourself, you separate from people who are bad for you after your initial attraction, making space for someone more appropriate. I’d also say that it is not your self-esteem that is lacking (in fact, your self-esteem amongst other things signalled to you pretty early on that maybe not all is well with this relationship), but maybe to some extent your confidence in your capabilities and discernment, and this was further undermined by an incompetent therapist*. I’d say, let people go as soon as you feel a more than passing discomfort in their presence/ about them/ about your relationship with them, but don’t worry overly much about the fact that they came into your life in the first place. We let people in because of all sorts of initial factors, but we don’t have to let them stick around if they prove toxic to us.
2. I’d also look whether there are any commonalities between the men you are attracted to. For example, due to my childhood, I have, at times, felt a bit like I’m standing on the outside of the social world, not fully integrated and in need of protection, so I was insta-attracted to people who seemed at ease and who were protective of me. Sometimes, these traits hid abusive tendencies (protectiveness particularly can easily turn out to be the sunny side of a controlling personality), but my fixation on them was doing me a disservice anyway, mainly because it made me ignore other things that would have put me off if I’d paid attention.
So, I’d try to figure out if there is anything, any trait, that results in you feeling overwhelming attraction, thereby closing yourself off to other impressions about that person. I’ve seen people being over-attracted to erudition, worldliness, broodiness, adventurousness, even to people who are socially-minded, or very good at one particular thing. If you discover that you DO, in fact, have your own personality catnip, I’d reflect a bit on that, see how that could turn into relationship unpleasantness, and/ or what I am missing due to being lured in by this one thing. Seek to push it into the background, so that you can see the other parts of the person’s personality manifest themselves.
*I’m not saying that there are NO situation where it could be useful to remind someone that people are not all good or all bad – but it seems obvious that yours isn’t one of them.
posted by miorita at 11:00 AM on January 24, 2018 [14 favorites]
Two resources I've found to be helpful in developing healthy self esteem and appropriate boundaries are Baggage Reclaim and Chump Lady. There's tons of really good advice on both of those blogs. More specifically and personally, I've found that practicing the "Don't need it that bad" philosophy is not only inherently confidence building, it's an abusive person repellent. It's the practice in a nutshell of getting over dysfunctional neediness. Once you accomplish that, it's a lot harder for abusive people to sink their hooks into you because there is less dysfunction for them to hook into in the first place.
posted by jazzbaby at 11:04 AM on January 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by jazzbaby at 11:04 AM on January 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
The "low self esteem" thing has not aged terribly well as a cultural concept and I would recommend going forward that you raise a red flag on any therapist that uses it either earnestly or as a weapon. I think another way to reframe that is as a combination of beaten-down standards and broken calibration on instinct and trust
Quoted for truth, and also for making me misty at my desk. This is so true, and Lyn Never's entire comment is fabulous.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:05 AM on January 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
Quoted for truth, and also for making me misty at my desk. This is so true, and Lyn Never's entire comment is fabulous.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:05 AM on January 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
PS I agree with all the other people who tell you to leave your therapist (or at least confront him).
Just a few days ago there was another AskMe about why therapists are not supposed to give advice, and I think your story would have made a great example.
It’s incredibly upsetting hearing how he derailed you, and with such typical advice for women. Suck it up and find a way to settle into this thing you feel is horrible for you! But what really pisses me off is how he manage to make your initial reticence be something bad about you (you’re not sophisticated enough to know that people have good and bad sides!) and then, once that backfired, he made the fallout be your fault as well (you’re not ready for a relationship)! I think he made a big mistake when he advised you to hang on to this guy, but then he compounded it out of cowardice, because he couldn’t just come out and admit he had made an error of judgement. He could have validated your initial feelings and even distilled a valuable lesson out of what went down (i.e. trust your feelings about your own life over anyone else’s two-a-penny wisdom), instead he chose to add insult to injury.
I’d drop him.
posted by miorita at 11:10 AM on January 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
Just a few days ago there was another AskMe about why therapists are not supposed to give advice, and I think your story would have made a great example.
It’s incredibly upsetting hearing how he derailed you, and with such typical advice for women. Suck it up and find a way to settle into this thing you feel is horrible for you! But what really pisses me off is how he manage to make your initial reticence be something bad about you (you’re not sophisticated enough to know that people have good and bad sides!) and then, once that backfired, he made the fallout be your fault as well (you’re not ready for a relationship)! I think he made a big mistake when he advised you to hang on to this guy, but then he compounded it out of cowardice, because he couldn’t just come out and admit he had made an error of judgement. He could have validated your initial feelings and even distilled a valuable lesson out of what went down (i.e. trust your feelings about your own life over anyone else’s two-a-penny wisdom), instead he chose to add insult to injury.
I’d drop him.
posted by miorita at 11:10 AM on January 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
Nthing what everyone's said about dumping your therapist. I've also found female therapists to be more empathetic of certain issues.
I'd be happy to take another prolonged break from dating but I'm a 34 year old woman who wants kids. I don't have forever to sort this out.
This. I gently want to say that this is something you may need to work on. There seems to be a sense of impatience here, and having been in your shoes for a few years, I can safely say that the thought of having a child with any of my abusive exes brings me close to a panic attack. Having a child is mutually exclusive with being in a relationship. I know women who've made terrible decisions about partners because the all-important goal of having children clouded their judgement. One of these women is my own mother, who had me with my abusive father, and my childhood was stressful because of it. So, you don't have to take a prolonged break from dating, but perhaps examining the motivation for jumping back into it will allow you to recognize some of the common traits for the type of men you find yourself attracted to.
posted by Everydayville at 11:14 AM on January 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'd be happy to take another prolonged break from dating but I'm a 34 year old woman who wants kids. I don't have forever to sort this out.
This. I gently want to say that this is something you may need to work on. There seems to be a sense of impatience here, and having been in your shoes for a few years, I can safely say that the thought of having a child with any of my abusive exes brings me close to a panic attack. Having a child is mutually exclusive with being in a relationship. I know women who've made terrible decisions about partners because the all-important goal of having children clouded their judgement. One of these women is my own mother, who had me with my abusive father, and my childhood was stressful because of it. So, you don't have to take a prolonged break from dating, but perhaps examining the motivation for jumping back into it will allow you to recognize some of the common traits for the type of men you find yourself attracted to.
posted by Everydayville at 11:14 AM on January 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
What else can I do to change the type of man I'm attracted to, and/or improve my self-esteem so I don't stick around in these soul destroying relationships?
Very early on, like on the first date, say 'no' to something he wants you to do, that you do not actually want to do, and observe how he reacts. Controlling men will surface very quickly. (Note: I don't mean make his life miserable, or give him a shit test, or make him jump through hoops for you.)
Here's an example of what I mean: I was on a first date with a guy who was already setting off my radar as weird; he asked if I wanted to continue the date at a club he knew. Nothing wrong on the surface with that, but it wasn't what I wanted to do, so I said, 'I'm not comfortable with that; I'd rather not go. I'm enjoying staying right here and talking with you.' I wasn't rejecting him, wasn't being a jerk… just was saying no. Now, a normal guy would say, 'Oh, okay, cool,' respect my wishes, and keep on talking. But this guy started to insist that we leave and go to this club, that I'd really like it, and why didn't I want to spend more time with him, doing what he wanted to do? After five minutes of politely repeating myself and being a broken record, I got up, gathered my things, and told him I'd learned everything I needed to know, and he should lose my number.
Unless bad relationships and being treated badly actually feels good and right to you, I don't think your self-esteem needs work, or that you're 'broken.' I think you just need to improve your screening process — which you're doing! You went from five years to five months, and that is a major, major improvement you should recognize. Actually, less than five months, since you only continued in the relationship on the advice your therapist gave you. (And dump that therapist, pronto.)
Have you managed to change your attraction or relationship patterns to be healthier?
Yes; I learned that if I feel instant white-hot chemistry with a man, that's probably a sign that he's a recurrence of a familiar pattern, and I should slow waaaaay down in my interaction with him. The good men will still be there.
You might find this book by Mira Kirshenbaum useful.
Is there a way I could be getting more out of therapy? How?
As others have said, ditch this therapist and find another.
Are there any role models of kind, open, emotionally healthy men in media/TV/films/books that I can study? I feel like if I had a bit of a template I might be able to recognise these qualities in the wild.
This is skewed a bit geeky, but:
Sol Star in Deadwood
Captain Sisko in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Chief O'Brien in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
The Doctor in Doctor Who (depends on which Doctor, but kindness is a core trait)
posted by culfinglin at 11:56 AM on January 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
Very early on, like on the first date, say 'no' to something he wants you to do, that you do not actually want to do, and observe how he reacts. Controlling men will surface very quickly. (Note: I don't mean make his life miserable, or give him a shit test, or make him jump through hoops for you.)
Here's an example of what I mean: I was on a first date with a guy who was already setting off my radar as weird; he asked if I wanted to continue the date at a club he knew. Nothing wrong on the surface with that, but it wasn't what I wanted to do, so I said, 'I'm not comfortable with that; I'd rather not go. I'm enjoying staying right here and talking with you.' I wasn't rejecting him, wasn't being a jerk… just was saying no. Now, a normal guy would say, 'Oh, okay, cool,' respect my wishes, and keep on talking. But this guy started to insist that we leave and go to this club, that I'd really like it, and why didn't I want to spend more time with him, doing what he wanted to do? After five minutes of politely repeating myself and being a broken record, I got up, gathered my things, and told him I'd learned everything I needed to know, and he should lose my number.
Unless bad relationships and being treated badly actually feels good and right to you, I don't think your self-esteem needs work, or that you're 'broken.' I think you just need to improve your screening process — which you're doing! You went from five years to five months, and that is a major, major improvement you should recognize. Actually, less than five months, since you only continued in the relationship on the advice your therapist gave you. (And dump that therapist, pronto.)
Have you managed to change your attraction or relationship patterns to be healthier?
Yes; I learned that if I feel instant white-hot chemistry with a man, that's probably a sign that he's a recurrence of a familiar pattern, and I should slow waaaaay down in my interaction with him. The good men will still be there.
You might find this book by Mira Kirshenbaum useful.
Is there a way I could be getting more out of therapy? How?
As others have said, ditch this therapist and find another.
Are there any role models of kind, open, emotionally healthy men in media/TV/films/books that I can study? I feel like if I had a bit of a template I might be able to recognise these qualities in the wild.
This is skewed a bit geeky, but:
Sol Star in Deadwood
Captain Sisko in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Chief O'Brien in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
The Doctor in Doctor Who (depends on which Doctor, but kindness is a core trait)
posted by culfinglin at 11:56 AM on January 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
Abusive, boundary-breaching, sexually pushy men are so common in the dating pool you really don't have to hunt them down-- if you're dating, you'll find them. And in sheep's clothes.
Nthing the rec of a new, maybe female therapist. "Pobody's nerfect!" is not a therapeutic response to sexual red flags.
posted by kapers at 11:57 AM on January 24, 2018 [17 favorites]
Nthing the rec of a new, maybe female therapist. "Pobody's nerfect!" is not a therapeutic response to sexual red flags.
posted by kapers at 11:57 AM on January 24, 2018 [17 favorites]
At one point I was ready to walk away because his behaviour was scary and upsetting, but my therapist advised me to get in touch with him and reopen the conversation because we obviously had a connection and that 'people aren't all good or bad'.
I feel that this is true, but that some people are better than others. This seems like a dopey statement. I'm not saying there is a perfect way to advise somebody who is deciding whether or not to stay in a potentially unhealthy relationship. He's also not responsible for your choices (doy). I feel like most people with normal brains who can relate to others in normal ways can see the middle ground between someone wanting a push in the right direction and wanting to be spoon fed what to do.
If you want to be generous about the whole "people aren't just good and bad" thing, I think you can see it not as condescention but just as a measure of this person's poor decision making. For instance, some people are genuinely afraid to dump anyone. Many men also just Don't Get It (TM) when it comes to issues of safety in dating. Incomplete feminism. Your therapist may be one of those people and these may be some of their blind spots on this issue.
I will say that one often feels angry at oneself for "letting" people put one in a dangerous position, or "letting" people trample over one's boundaries. But I think it's also clear that bad behavior is often ambiguous at the start. And one of the reasons that we let it continue is we have this irrational sense that we are causing it, or we can fix it, blah blah blah...
Miorita's point is so great: He could have validated your initial feelings and even distilled a valuable lesson out of what went down (i.e. trust your feelings about your own life over anyone else’s two-a-penny wisdom), instead he chose to add insult to injury. This is a funny/true way of putting it. I think when other people validate our intuitions about things and tell us that we deserve good things, we are better able to trust ourselves. I feel like you got neither of these things out of this interaction, or if anything the opposite.
posted by karmachameleon at 12:00 PM on January 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
I feel that this is true, but that some people are better than others. This seems like a dopey statement. I'm not saying there is a perfect way to advise somebody who is deciding whether or not to stay in a potentially unhealthy relationship. He's also not responsible for your choices (doy). I feel like most people with normal brains who can relate to others in normal ways can see the middle ground between someone wanting a push in the right direction and wanting to be spoon fed what to do.
If you want to be generous about the whole "people aren't just good and bad" thing, I think you can see it not as condescention but just as a measure of this person's poor decision making. For instance, some people are genuinely afraid to dump anyone. Many men also just Don't Get It (TM) when it comes to issues of safety in dating. Incomplete feminism. Your therapist may be one of those people and these may be some of their blind spots on this issue.
I will say that one often feels angry at oneself for "letting" people put one in a dangerous position, or "letting" people trample over one's boundaries. But I think it's also clear that bad behavior is often ambiguous at the start. And one of the reasons that we let it continue is we have this irrational sense that we are causing it, or we can fix it, blah blah blah...
Miorita's point is so great: He could have validated your initial feelings and even distilled a valuable lesson out of what went down (i.e. trust your feelings about your own life over anyone else’s two-a-penny wisdom), instead he chose to add insult to injury. This is a funny/true way of putting it. I think when other people validate our intuitions about things and tell us that we deserve good things, we are better able to trust ourselves. I feel like you got neither of these things out of this interaction, or if anything the opposite.
posted by karmachameleon at 12:00 PM on January 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Are there any role models of kind, open, emotionally healthy men in media/TV/films/books that I can study?
Granted, we don't know tons of things about his personal life, but Barack Obama's treatment of his wife Michelle is just... wonderful to see and read about.
For fictional characters, Coach Taylor and his wife, from Friday Night Lights, were a relatively emotionally healthy couple. There may be some things from the era that the show had its run in that would change plotlines given the current social climate, but overall their relationship was solid. This Is Us (Randall, Jack, Toby), and Parenthood (Adam, Zeek) also featured flawed, but kind husbands. Which I think is important to note because all the kind men I know - my own boyfriend, my uncle, my grandfather - all have their flaws, but those flaws don't make them assholes, and don't make them treat ANY of the women in their lives in an abusive manner.
Also, screw Mr. Darcy, George Knightley (Austen's Emma) was pretty darn awesome.
posted by Everydayville at 2:04 PM on January 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Granted, we don't know tons of things about his personal life, but Barack Obama's treatment of his wife Michelle is just... wonderful to see and read about.
For fictional characters, Coach Taylor and his wife, from Friday Night Lights, were a relatively emotionally healthy couple. There may be some things from the era that the show had its run in that would change plotlines given the current social climate, but overall their relationship was solid. This Is Us (Randall, Jack, Toby), and Parenthood (Adam, Zeek) also featured flawed, but kind husbands. Which I think is important to note because all the kind men I know - my own boyfriend, my uncle, my grandfather - all have their flaws, but those flaws don't make them assholes, and don't make them treat ANY of the women in their lives in an abusive manner.
Also, screw Mr. Darcy, George Knightley (Austen's Emma) was pretty darn awesome.
posted by Everydayville at 2:04 PM on January 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I'm glad I ended it after only a few months of transgressive, manipulative, unkind behaviour- these things usually take me years to get out of.
This, this, 1000x this. I’ll tell you something my intelligent, kind and trustworthy therapist told me last night. I was crying with despair and frustration about having fallen into the same shitty relationship trap again and again. And the fact that this time I did it despite my better instincts.
She said: profound change takes time. A year ago you couldn’t even see the trap, the red flags. Then you started to be able to see them, but because of a lifetime of habit you did it anyway. You will get to a point where you see the red flags, and you turn around and walk the other way.
Dwardles, you should be so goddamn proud because you’re up to that last part already. You doubted yourself for a minute because your therapist said something dumb and dangerously irresponsible.
Get yourself a new therapist, because you deserve someone as good as mine in your corner. And when in doubt, read this. I hope soon we’ll both be choosing to walk down another street.
posted by wreckofthehesperus at 2:18 PM on January 24, 2018 [14 favorites]
This, this, 1000x this. I’ll tell you something my intelligent, kind and trustworthy therapist told me last night. I was crying with despair and frustration about having fallen into the same shitty relationship trap again and again. And the fact that this time I did it despite my better instincts.
She said: profound change takes time. A year ago you couldn’t even see the trap, the red flags. Then you started to be able to see them, but because of a lifetime of habit you did it anyway. You will get to a point where you see the red flags, and you turn around and walk the other way.
Dwardles, you should be so goddamn proud because you’re up to that last part already. You doubted yourself for a minute because your therapist said something dumb and dangerously irresponsible.
Get yourself a new therapist, because you deserve someone as good as mine in your corner. And when in doubt, read this. I hope soon we’ll both be choosing to walk down another street.
posted by wreckofthehesperus at 2:18 PM on January 24, 2018 [14 favorites]
Best answer: There's so many good comments here already that I can't add anything meaningful. I just wanted to say that it's amazing that you ended this relationship when you did, and that you should be proud of yourself for doing so.
Also, based on this experience, you have learned a lot about trusting your own instincts, and your instincts are now going to get sharper and sharper. A year from now, if not much sooner, you'll be walking away at the first red flag, so that you haven't wasted more than 5 minutes of your time on someone, as opposed to five years.
Here's the thing - you'll still question yourself. You'll still say " oh, maybe I walked away too soon, maybe I didn't give it a chance...". Understand this: we are socialized to second guess ourselves that way. It becomes a bad habit. But just like breaking a bad habit, you are now learning a good, new habit to supercede the bad one. Now when you question yourself, you will immediately follow the question with "No, I walked away for a reason. Even if I'm not exactly sure right now what the red flags were, they were definitely there. I may never know what I've just saved myself from, but I am safe".
Listen to everyone here and walk away from that therapist. He may not be a bad guy, but you will not trust his judgement or advice again after this situation. Staying with him now will prolong the inevitable, while wasting your money and your valuable time. Move along and find someone who is a better fit.
posted by vignettist at 2:38 PM on January 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
Also, based on this experience, you have learned a lot about trusting your own instincts, and your instincts are now going to get sharper and sharper. A year from now, if not much sooner, you'll be walking away at the first red flag, so that you haven't wasted more than 5 minutes of your time on someone, as opposed to five years.
Here's the thing - you'll still question yourself. You'll still say " oh, maybe I walked away too soon, maybe I didn't give it a chance...". Understand this: we are socialized to second guess ourselves that way. It becomes a bad habit. But just like breaking a bad habit, you are now learning a good, new habit to supercede the bad one. Now when you question yourself, you will immediately follow the question with "No, I walked away for a reason. Even if I'm not exactly sure right now what the red flags were, they were definitely there. I may never know what I've just saved myself from, but I am safe".
Listen to everyone here and walk away from that therapist. He may not be a bad guy, but you will not trust his judgement or advice again after this situation. Staying with him now will prolong the inevitable, while wasting your money and your valuable time. Move along and find someone who is a better fit.
posted by vignettist at 2:38 PM on January 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
Are there any role models of kind, open, emotionally healthy men in media/TV/films/books that I can study?
You could probably use a smile right now anyway, so check out Sgt. Terry Jeffords on Brooklyn 99.
posted by praemunire at 3:26 PM on January 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
You could probably use a smile right now anyway, so check out Sgt. Terry Jeffords on Brooklyn 99.
posted by praemunire at 3:26 PM on January 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I have a few thoughts about this.
One is to echo the great advice that you get rid of that therapist. I had a therapist to encourage me to continue seeing someone that I was not excited about, and it really just ended up being a waste of my time and that guy's time. I knew I wasn't into him but I still stuck around because my therapist told me I should. Now, I have been in abusive relationships, which is something my therapist knew. What she didn't seem to grasp was the concept that abuse chips away at feeling sure about your own thoughts. I knew better than my therapist that this guy I was seeing wasn't right for me. But she gave me a lot of bull about how important it was for me to stay and try, so I did. My situation was admittedly lower stakes, I just wasn't jazzed about the guy. But the fact remains that I knew what I wanted, and I was getting advice from a mental health professional that directly countered what was actually best for me. It's not okay for a therapist to push on stuff like this, especially when it's a large part of why you're in therapy. You shouldn't be dating somebody if you don't want to be dating them even if your therapist thinks it's a good idea.
The second thing that I want to share is that it's really easy for me to beat myself up about how I keep falling into relationships with shitty guys. Objectively, I am attracted to men who don't treat me well. This is something that I'm trying to figure out and work on. But the last time I dated a guy like this, I dropped him after 2 weeks. Before that, it was six months. Before that, two years; and before that, I was with a seriously abusive man for over 3 years. It's easy for me to look at that and say "what is wrong with me, I keep dating terrible guys!" But I can also look at it and say, hey, I've come a long way! Now I can actually spot it when I'm texting with somebody! I don't even have to meet them to figure out that they're not great and have questionable character. I would say that it sounds like your trajectory is similar, and that is something to be celebrated, not criticized.
Look, women in our culture are taught from day one to bow to the needs of men, that our needs are less important, that our feelings aren't real or valid, and that we do not matter as much in the world as men. There is loads of scholarship about this. We are taught to trim ourselves down, both literally and figuratively. Pushing against our training is incredibly hard as a human. You are doing a great job on a tremendously difficult task.
Take care.
posted by sockermom at 4:34 PM on January 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
One is to echo the great advice that you get rid of that therapist. I had a therapist to encourage me to continue seeing someone that I was not excited about, and it really just ended up being a waste of my time and that guy's time. I knew I wasn't into him but I still stuck around because my therapist told me I should. Now, I have been in abusive relationships, which is something my therapist knew. What she didn't seem to grasp was the concept that abuse chips away at feeling sure about your own thoughts. I knew better than my therapist that this guy I was seeing wasn't right for me. But she gave me a lot of bull about how important it was for me to stay and try, so I did. My situation was admittedly lower stakes, I just wasn't jazzed about the guy. But the fact remains that I knew what I wanted, and I was getting advice from a mental health professional that directly countered what was actually best for me. It's not okay for a therapist to push on stuff like this, especially when it's a large part of why you're in therapy. You shouldn't be dating somebody if you don't want to be dating them even if your therapist thinks it's a good idea.
The second thing that I want to share is that it's really easy for me to beat myself up about how I keep falling into relationships with shitty guys. Objectively, I am attracted to men who don't treat me well. This is something that I'm trying to figure out and work on. But the last time I dated a guy like this, I dropped him after 2 weeks. Before that, it was six months. Before that, two years; and before that, I was with a seriously abusive man for over 3 years. It's easy for me to look at that and say "what is wrong with me, I keep dating terrible guys!" But I can also look at it and say, hey, I've come a long way! Now I can actually spot it when I'm texting with somebody! I don't even have to meet them to figure out that they're not great and have questionable character. I would say that it sounds like your trajectory is similar, and that is something to be celebrated, not criticized.
Look, women in our culture are taught from day one to bow to the needs of men, that our needs are less important, that our feelings aren't real or valid, and that we do not matter as much in the world as men. There is loads of scholarship about this. We are taught to trim ourselves down, both literally and figuratively. Pushing against our training is incredibly hard as a human. You are doing a great job on a tremendously difficult task.
Take care.
posted by sockermom at 4:34 PM on January 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
Speaking of B99, Terry Crews in real life seems to be a decent, strong-boundaries, compassionate human being and friend and husband and father who is using his position to speak truth to power at the risk of his own career, and turns the "big tough guy" stereotype right on its ear at every opportunity.
I don't know much about him, but the way Chrissy Tiegen talks about her life it sounds like John Legend is a truly participating husband and father AND she is not interested in having him or their life blown out of proportion into some kind of instagram fantasy. Also she's super funny and seems real comfortable with her own boundaries, which is another thing you should look for in role models.
Don't just look for men to study who aren't flaming dumpster fires, but look at the women and employers/employees and kids and friends who have relationships with those good men because it's an ecosystem. It's not just "get yourself a good man" but "be among people who are all operating at a higher standard." I was just recently listening to a motivational seminar that was kinda hokey but one of the things they said was "you are a combination of the five people you are closest to" and that does seem to be an awfully true thing. You need all your close influences to be great influences, and you also need to be a great influence to them.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:35 PM on January 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
I don't know much about him, but the way Chrissy Tiegen talks about her life it sounds like John Legend is a truly participating husband and father AND she is not interested in having him or their life blown out of proportion into some kind of instagram fantasy. Also she's super funny and seems real comfortable with her own boundaries, which is another thing you should look for in role models.
Don't just look for men to study who aren't flaming dumpster fires, but look at the women and employers/employees and kids and friends who have relationships with those good men because it's an ecosystem. It's not just "get yourself a good man" but "be among people who are all operating at a higher standard." I was just recently listening to a motivational seminar that was kinda hokey but one of the things they said was "you are a combination of the five people you are closest to" and that does seem to be an awfully true thing. You need all your close influences to be great influences, and you also need to be a great influence to them.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:35 PM on January 24, 2018 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Totally agree with all the good advice in this thread.
Would also suggest that your frustration with yourself, your fear that you won’t be able to solve this, and the “ticking clock” pressure you feel may all be to some extent remnants of the people who have been controlling and abusive to you in the past .
It’s very natural to internalize criticism and pressure and it’s hard to see it as such if it’s ostensibly in your best interests (in this case finding the kind of relationship you want).
But I’ve had the feelings you have and in my case I realized it was a kind internalized form of my mother who was controlling and not respectful of my personal agency and flipped out at me for getting B+s — ostensibly out of concern for my sense of discipline and professional future, ostensibly because she cared about me and wanted what was best for me and worried about the consequences for me. But all that did was make me worry about my future (which has been fine) and be really hard on myself and untrusting of my ability to take care of myself or make good decisions.
Like, I agree you have every reason to be totally proud of getting out of this most recent thing in 10% of the time it took you before! And also, maybe frame it to yourself less as “I screwed up again, I will always screw up” and more as “a shitty thing happened to me again, what reasonable precautions can i take to avoid it” (which i think is partly your framing, I’m just addressing losing the part that is frustrated with yourself).
One big benefit is that you will be able to walk away from bad things faster if no portion of your feelings about yourself and your future are invested in the idea that you have to get it right this time, and there’s something wrong with you if you picked “wrong” again.
As for practical advice, the plainest true advice Ive heard is to pay attention to how you feel after you hang out with someone. Is it better, the same, or worse than you did before? This won’t necessarily be obvious after the first date, but over time you will notice if spending time with someone reliably leaves you feeling sadder, more afraid, or more insecure than you did before.
(Oh and finally to address one of your questions— I have totally been attracted both to guys who were terrible for me and guys who were good for me. In my case avoiding the controlling abusive ones has been a matter of trusting myself when a situation doesn’t make me feel good, and trusting that someone better for me is out there).
posted by mrmurbles at 9:19 PM on January 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Would also suggest that your frustration with yourself, your fear that you won’t be able to solve this, and the “ticking clock” pressure you feel may all be to some extent remnants of the people who have been controlling and abusive to you in the past .
It’s very natural to internalize criticism and pressure and it’s hard to see it as such if it’s ostensibly in your best interests (in this case finding the kind of relationship you want).
But I’ve had the feelings you have and in my case I realized it was a kind internalized form of my mother who was controlling and not respectful of my personal agency and flipped out at me for getting B+s — ostensibly out of concern for my sense of discipline and professional future, ostensibly because she cared about me and wanted what was best for me and worried about the consequences for me. But all that did was make me worry about my future (which has been fine) and be really hard on myself and untrusting of my ability to take care of myself or make good decisions.
Like, I agree you have every reason to be totally proud of getting out of this most recent thing in 10% of the time it took you before! And also, maybe frame it to yourself less as “I screwed up again, I will always screw up” and more as “a shitty thing happened to me again, what reasonable precautions can i take to avoid it” (which i think is partly your framing, I’m just addressing losing the part that is frustrated with yourself).
One big benefit is that you will be able to walk away from bad things faster if no portion of your feelings about yourself and your future are invested in the idea that you have to get it right this time, and there’s something wrong with you if you picked “wrong” again.
As for practical advice, the plainest true advice Ive heard is to pay attention to how you feel after you hang out with someone. Is it better, the same, or worse than you did before? This won’t necessarily be obvious after the first date, but over time you will notice if spending time with someone reliably leaves you feeling sadder, more afraid, or more insecure than you did before.
(Oh and finally to address one of your questions— I have totally been attracted both to guys who were terrible for me and guys who were good for me. In my case avoiding the controlling abusive ones has been a matter of trusting myself when a situation doesn’t make me feel good, and trusting that someone better for me is out there).
posted by mrmurbles at 9:19 PM on January 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Btw Dwardles I just noticed not one but two ableist slurs in my response to you - "duh" and "normal brain." Wow! So sorry about that! Everything else was sincerely meant.
posted by karmachameleon at 11:16 PM on January 24, 2018
posted by karmachameleon at 11:16 PM on January 24, 2018
Seconding Star Trek as a TV model for excellent communication and respect exhibited by men (and most of the Starfleet characters, really). TNG has held up pretty well and takes place in a very egalitarian culture. Slights and miscommunication are handled immediately and with immense respect, as in this darling exchange between Data and Worf.
posted by Drosera at 8:33 AM on January 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Drosera at 8:33 AM on January 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Gus on the Netflix series "Love" is a good type to beware of. Nice on the surface, but then expects the world because of it.
posted by WeekendJen at 1:29 PM on January 25, 2018
posted by WeekendJen at 1:29 PM on January 25, 2018
You've gotten some excellent advice here, so I will confine myself to saying that Senator Tim Kaine is an excellent example of a male advocate and ally. (I would totally date him if he was single, but that's a different conversation).
posted by dancing_angel at 10:55 PM on January 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by dancing_angel at 10:55 PM on January 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Ausamor at 9:43 AM on January 24, 2018 [44 favorites]