Frustrating convo with ex
January 22, 2018 10:41 PM Subscribe
Help me understand why he was thinking/responding this way? I know you are not mind readers, but maybe you have some insight? Wall of text inside.
Ex and I have been separated for 1.5 years. We have a 5 year old in senior kindergarten who’s currently in French immersion. There is a program at her old school where she did junior kindergarten that starts in grade 1. In this program, kids can learn the Ontario (Canada) curriculum for one hour a day in Mandarin, from 3 - 4 pm. The rest of the day is taught in English and the Mandarin instruction reinforces the English instruction. Students have to enrol in this school; they cannot do French immersion at one school and come to this school for the Mandarin. This school does not have French immersion.
There’s an info session on the program coming up. I went to it last year on a lark, and came away thinking that this would be a really good opportunity for our kid. Given that the French immersion session occured earlier in the school year than the one for the Mandarin program, ex and I had already agreed to register our kid for French by the time the Mandarin info session occurred. So I felt that we didn’t have a chance to really compare the two. Also, the only entry point for French immersion is SK, and the one for Mandarin is Grade 1. If you leave French immersion, you can’t go back.
I emailed him about the info session today. No response, and he’s generally very quick in responding. So I called him tonight. Ex had several reasons why he didn’t want to put our kid in the Mandarin program: he doesn’t like the school (it’s a lot of low-income people, but that doesn’t bother me, and the Mandarin program parents are really involved and engaged - they’re the ones who lobbied for the program), he doesn’t think it’s worth it to learn Mandarin in grade 1 - we are both Chinese and he learned Mandarin as an adult. His parents spoke Mandarin at home. We are both Canadian-born. He doesn’t like the idea of our kid being around immigrant Chinese kids because that’s like being in engineering, which he studied, and which was slightly traumatizing for him (I guess what he means by this is that it’s all awkward Asian kids and he was definitely the stereotypical Asian nerd. He did a lot of work to improve his social skills). He doesn’t believe this “China rising” rhetoric - because he went there on exchange for his MBA in the early 2000s and he felt that he had to start from scratch anyway in learning the language. He prefers the French immersion school because the “calibre of the parents is higher” (ugh) and I agree that the families seem more middle-class but again, I don’t care. He also did French immersion at a fancy private school in Toronto.
He obviously has a lot of thoughts, opinions and experiences on this and my problem is that he didn’t even bother to ask me why I was interested in the Mandarin program for kid. My reasons are: based on when I attended the info session last year, it seemed like a really good program. The parents are really engaged, and no, they’re not all Chinese or immigrants. I would like kid to learn Mandarin because we’re Chinese so there’s that heritage element for her, even though my parents spoke Cantonese (I didn’t pick it up), and I went to Saturday morning school for Mandarin (the instruction was awful and I barely learned anything #heritagelanguagelearningtrauma). I don’t want her to be a Chinese person who doesn’t know Chinese (like me!).
He doesn’t think it’s worth it to learn Mandarin in grade 1, and I said I disagreed, because it’s better to learn when you’re younger. I noticed that once I said that I disagreed that’s when he started getting pissy. That’s when he said that he doesn’t like the school, flat out. I tried to disagree with some of his points - that even though the school population is majority low-income, the parents in the program are really engaged and involved. I really wanted him to go to the info session and see for himself - but I know him. Asking him to do something he sees no value in is fruitless. He had the gall (I feel) to say, “Don’t I get a say in the decision-making here?” And he also said that he felt backed into a corner. It felt like HE was making the decision (that kid shouldn’t be in this program) - so I don’t get at all why he felt that. I don’t know why or how he felt backed into a corner. I can only imagine that he felt threatened somehow - I wasn't saying to withdraw kid from French to put her in Mandarin - I was saying, just attend the session and see for yourself. I didn’t even have a chance to say "let’s go to the info session and see and make a decision afterwards on what’s right for kid" because by that time he was pretty heated, and so was I. I feel like he escalated first, but whatever. He also said that if kid doesn’t like her old school, there’s no going back to French immersion (I agree with this, though didn’t voice that). Kid has also said that she wants to go back to her old school (because the library has computer games) and learn English. She’s said that she doesn’t like learning French, but I talked to her teacher about that and kid didn’t complain this morning about learning French. This is very recent so it remains to be seen if she stops complaining. I also don’t know if you can enter the Mandarin program in later grades if kid decides French is really not for her, which is why I want to go to the info session… (Her current school is all French, there is no English stream there.)
He said that he would think about going to the session so I guess that’s something? (Wednesday is his day to pick up kid, and childcare is provided during the session) I just felt awful after that conversation because he didn’t care about my thoughts. We’re exes for a reason.
It feels like he thinks his opinion is the only one that counts, he didn’t even ask me why I was interested in this program. And why would he think he has no say in decision-making when it seems like he’s the one who already made a decision? Why would he feel backed into a corner? Mefites, I know that you can’t read minds, but any insight into his behaviour? And how I can approach differences of opinion with him in the future? Was there anything that I could have done better? Any strategies that you can suggest in pre-empting this kind of unpleasantness? (Note that I don’t want to get into a French vs. Mandarin debate - my question is more around: “Why was he thinking/acting this way? Was it me? What can I do better?”) The reason why I want to know the “why” behind his behaviour - I just want to understand this. Maybe it’ll help me to talk to him better. Maybe some of you have had similar experiences with people and provide some insight? That’s really what I’m looking for. Also, I’m a woman, late 30s, and he’s mid 40s. Thanks, all.
Ex and I have been separated for 1.5 years. We have a 5 year old in senior kindergarten who’s currently in French immersion. There is a program at her old school where she did junior kindergarten that starts in grade 1. In this program, kids can learn the Ontario (Canada) curriculum for one hour a day in Mandarin, from 3 - 4 pm. The rest of the day is taught in English and the Mandarin instruction reinforces the English instruction. Students have to enrol in this school; they cannot do French immersion at one school and come to this school for the Mandarin. This school does not have French immersion.
There’s an info session on the program coming up. I went to it last year on a lark, and came away thinking that this would be a really good opportunity for our kid. Given that the French immersion session occured earlier in the school year than the one for the Mandarin program, ex and I had already agreed to register our kid for French by the time the Mandarin info session occurred. So I felt that we didn’t have a chance to really compare the two. Also, the only entry point for French immersion is SK, and the one for Mandarin is Grade 1. If you leave French immersion, you can’t go back.
I emailed him about the info session today. No response, and he’s generally very quick in responding. So I called him tonight. Ex had several reasons why he didn’t want to put our kid in the Mandarin program: he doesn’t like the school (it’s a lot of low-income people, but that doesn’t bother me, and the Mandarin program parents are really involved and engaged - they’re the ones who lobbied for the program), he doesn’t think it’s worth it to learn Mandarin in grade 1 - we are both Chinese and he learned Mandarin as an adult. His parents spoke Mandarin at home. We are both Canadian-born. He doesn’t like the idea of our kid being around immigrant Chinese kids because that’s like being in engineering, which he studied, and which was slightly traumatizing for him (I guess what he means by this is that it’s all awkward Asian kids and he was definitely the stereotypical Asian nerd. He did a lot of work to improve his social skills). He doesn’t believe this “China rising” rhetoric - because he went there on exchange for his MBA in the early 2000s and he felt that he had to start from scratch anyway in learning the language. He prefers the French immersion school because the “calibre of the parents is higher” (ugh) and I agree that the families seem more middle-class but again, I don’t care. He also did French immersion at a fancy private school in Toronto.
He obviously has a lot of thoughts, opinions and experiences on this and my problem is that he didn’t even bother to ask me why I was interested in the Mandarin program for kid. My reasons are: based on when I attended the info session last year, it seemed like a really good program. The parents are really engaged, and no, they’re not all Chinese or immigrants. I would like kid to learn Mandarin because we’re Chinese so there’s that heritage element for her, even though my parents spoke Cantonese (I didn’t pick it up), and I went to Saturday morning school for Mandarin (the instruction was awful and I barely learned anything #heritagelanguagelearningtrauma). I don’t want her to be a Chinese person who doesn’t know Chinese (like me!).
He doesn’t think it’s worth it to learn Mandarin in grade 1, and I said I disagreed, because it’s better to learn when you’re younger. I noticed that once I said that I disagreed that’s when he started getting pissy. That’s when he said that he doesn’t like the school, flat out. I tried to disagree with some of his points - that even though the school population is majority low-income, the parents in the program are really engaged and involved. I really wanted him to go to the info session and see for himself - but I know him. Asking him to do something he sees no value in is fruitless. He had the gall (I feel) to say, “Don’t I get a say in the decision-making here?” And he also said that he felt backed into a corner. It felt like HE was making the decision (that kid shouldn’t be in this program) - so I don’t get at all why he felt that. I don’t know why or how he felt backed into a corner. I can only imagine that he felt threatened somehow - I wasn't saying to withdraw kid from French to put her in Mandarin - I was saying, just attend the session and see for yourself. I didn’t even have a chance to say "let’s go to the info session and see and make a decision afterwards on what’s right for kid" because by that time he was pretty heated, and so was I. I feel like he escalated first, but whatever. He also said that if kid doesn’t like her old school, there’s no going back to French immersion (I agree with this, though didn’t voice that). Kid has also said that she wants to go back to her old school (because the library has computer games) and learn English. She’s said that she doesn’t like learning French, but I talked to her teacher about that and kid didn’t complain this morning about learning French. This is very recent so it remains to be seen if she stops complaining. I also don’t know if you can enter the Mandarin program in later grades if kid decides French is really not for her, which is why I want to go to the info session… (Her current school is all French, there is no English stream there.)
He said that he would think about going to the session so I guess that’s something? (Wednesday is his day to pick up kid, and childcare is provided during the session) I just felt awful after that conversation because he didn’t care about my thoughts. We’re exes for a reason.
It feels like he thinks his opinion is the only one that counts, he didn’t even ask me why I was interested in this program. And why would he think he has no say in decision-making when it seems like he’s the one who already made a decision? Why would he feel backed into a corner? Mefites, I know that you can’t read minds, but any insight into his behaviour? And how I can approach differences of opinion with him in the future? Was there anything that I could have done better? Any strategies that you can suggest in pre-empting this kind of unpleasantness? (Note that I don’t want to get into a French vs. Mandarin debate - my question is more around: “Why was he thinking/acting this way? Was it me? What can I do better?”) The reason why I want to know the “why” behind his behaviour - I just want to understand this. Maybe it’ll help me to talk to him better. Maybe some of you have had similar experiences with people and provide some insight? That’s really what I’m looking for. Also, I’m a woman, late 30s, and he’s mid 40s. Thanks, all.
I'm not sure even he could tell you why he was reacting/responding as he did, particularly once he reached the point of a flat-out 'I just don't like it.' People often don't really have the presence of mind required to interrogate their own motives, and even when they do, their introspection may not be trustworthy. But since he started with something resembling a list of reasons, maybe it wasn't a plain old power struggle and maybe the thing you're looking for is Getting Past No, a book on negotiation technique summarized pretty adequately there in an old version of its page on Wikipedia.
posted by Wobbuffet at 12:10 AM on January 23, 2018
posted by Wobbuffet at 12:10 AM on January 23, 2018
How was the decision made to switch your child from her old school to the new one? Did both you and your ex willingly agree to the change?
One of the things that can irrationally rile me up is when I've made an agreement about something after a long discussion and the other person brings it up again. YMMV of course.
posted by 92_elements at 12:24 AM on January 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
One of the things that can irrationally rile me up is when I've made an agreement about something after a long discussion and the other person brings it up again. YMMV of course.
posted by 92_elements at 12:24 AM on January 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
I could not tell from the first part of what you wrote that you were only and simply asking him to go to an information session. It seemed like you were asking for an agreement.
posted by jbenben at 5:06 AM on January 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by jbenben at 5:06 AM on January 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
If you didn't offer up the reasons why you thought it would be beneficial to your kid, he didn't have any particular reason to consider it further, given his preexisting prejudice against that school. It sounds like he explained his reasons for that and you didn't explain yours.
Usually, people tend to stick with the status quo (i.e. her current school) unless they feel a compel reason to change that, and you may not have presented that. It all depends on how he processes things, but keeping that in mind might help. He may also have felt like he was being nagged to do something that takes up his time and has no value to him, which would be something I may object to in his position as well.
But it sounds like he agreed to consider attending the session, so you prevailed?
posted by metasarah at 5:10 AM on January 23, 2018
Usually, people tend to stick with the status quo (i.e. her current school) unless they feel a compel reason to change that, and you may not have presented that. It all depends on how he processes things, but keeping that in mind might help. He may also have felt like he was being nagged to do something that takes up his time and has no value to him, which would be something I may object to in his position as well.
But it sounds like he agreed to consider attending the session, so you prevailed?
posted by metasarah at 5:10 AM on January 23, 2018
His reasons sound pretty clear (as do yours).
he doesn’t think it’s worth it to learn Mandarin in grade 1... His parents spoke Mandarin at home.... he went there on exchange... in the early 2000s and... had to start from scratch anyway in learning the language.
he doesn’t like the school (it’s a lot of low-income people... He prefers the French immersion school because the “calibre of the parents is higher” (ugh) and I agree that the families seem more middle-class
He doesn’t like the idea of our kid being around immigrant Chinese kids because that’s like being in engineering, which he studied, and which was slightly traumatizing for him (I guess what he means by this is that it’s all awkward Asian kids and he was definitely the stereotypical Asian nerd
He also did French immersion at a fancy private school in Toronto.
You ask why he's being the way he's being, but it seems like he has pretty clear reasons that you understand. I'm not agreeing necessarily, but it sounds like he has a lot of life experience that points him toward feeling like a certain path is better.
posted by salvia at 5:46 AM on January 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
he doesn’t think it’s worth it to learn Mandarin in grade 1... His parents spoke Mandarin at home.... he went there on exchange... in the early 2000s and... had to start from scratch anyway in learning the language.
he doesn’t like the school (it’s a lot of low-income people... He prefers the French immersion school because the “calibre of the parents is higher” (ugh) and I agree that the families seem more middle-class
He doesn’t like the idea of our kid being around immigrant Chinese kids because that’s like being in engineering, which he studied, and which was slightly traumatizing for him (I guess what he means by this is that it’s all awkward Asian kids and he was definitely the stereotypical Asian nerd
He also did French immersion at a fancy private school in Toronto.
You ask why he's being the way he's being, but it seems like he has pretty clear reasons that you understand. I'm not agreeing necessarily, but it sounds like he has a lot of life experience that points him toward feeling like a certain path is better.
posted by salvia at 5:46 AM on January 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
If I’ve read your question correctly you went to the information session last year, so you had a full year to think about it. Where is he got an email in the afternoon and then a phone call in the evening. That’s not a whole lot of time to really think through the issue. I think the biggest way you can avoid this in the future is to give him more time, and also maybe explain your thinking briefly after the info session information.
If I were him, I would also be weighing a full day of language instruction versus one hour. That’s a lot of change for your child in 1.5 years, and he may be thinking the benefits don’t outweigh that.
Also, I’m not sure how your French Immersion journey went, but when we put our child in French Immersion it was clear that we were making a multiyear commitment. For him he may have seen this decision as having been made for at least through grade 6, and so asking to change it felt like a very big deal. One thing I’ve noticed in observing my friends’ coparenting situations, is that any change can become a big friction point. I think going forward recognizing that would probably help you create more productive discussions.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:59 AM on January 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
If I were him, I would also be weighing a full day of language instruction versus one hour. That’s a lot of change for your child in 1.5 years, and he may be thinking the benefits don’t outweigh that.
Also, I’m not sure how your French Immersion journey went, but when we put our child in French Immersion it was clear that we were making a multiyear commitment. For him he may have seen this decision as having been made for at least through grade 6, and so asking to change it felt like a very big deal. One thing I’ve noticed in observing my friends’ coparenting situations, is that any change can become a big friction point. I think going forward recognizing that would probably help you create more productive discussions.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:59 AM on January 23, 2018 [16 favorites]
Best answer: And why would he think he has no say in decision-making when it seems like he’s the one who already made a decision? Why would he feel backed into a corner?
I suspect he's had a visceral and emotional reaction to you suggesting raising your child in this context: "He doesn’t like the idea of our kid being around immigrant Chinese kids". I don't pretend to understand what's going on in his head here, but that's what he's signaling strongly. You indicate that a) he felt mildly traumatized by his own experiences as a child in similar contexts, and b) his adult experiences with Chinese culture do not appear to have been very positive either.
I don’t want her to be a Chinese person who doesn’t know Chinese
It sounds like he does not have this priority. Indeed he seems content to get away from what he feels Chinese culture and attitudes. This is a set of opposed values to my eye, and one he many not be able to fully articulate, even though he feels strongly about it. I don't think this is really about the particular merits or strengths of one program over the other. This seems for him to be about what milieu you and he want your child to have as they grow up, one more culturally Chinese or a very conventionally Canadian one in a french immersion school. I think that's what he's hearing from you.
posted by bonehead at 6:30 AM on January 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I suspect he's had a visceral and emotional reaction to you suggesting raising your child in this context: "He doesn’t like the idea of our kid being around immigrant Chinese kids". I don't pretend to understand what's going on in his head here, but that's what he's signaling strongly. You indicate that a) he felt mildly traumatized by his own experiences as a child in similar contexts, and b) his adult experiences with Chinese culture do not appear to have been very positive either.
I don’t want her to be a Chinese person who doesn’t know Chinese
It sounds like he does not have this priority. Indeed he seems content to get away from what he feels Chinese culture and attitudes. This is a set of opposed values to my eye, and one he many not be able to fully articulate, even though he feels strongly about it. I don't think this is really about the particular merits or strengths of one program over the other. This seems for him to be about what milieu you and he want your child to have as they grow up, one more culturally Chinese or a very conventionally Canadian one in a french immersion school. I think that's what he's hearing from you.
posted by bonehead at 6:30 AM on January 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm guessing you were both somewhat emotionally overwhelmed in the conversation - you were frustrated because you didn't feel heard and he wasn't interested in why this was important to you, he was perhaps frustrated that a decision he thought of as completely finished was being re-opened.
Some of his reasons for not wanting her to go into the Mandarin program are not in line with your values, but largely you both are wanting things to go better for her than they did for you and want her to avoid your regrets - you wish you had learned Mandarin when you were young, he "had to start from scratch anyway" when he went to China as an adult which I take to mean he had some instruction when he was a kid and didn't find it valuable. It might be good to acknowledge, to yourself and to him in these discussions, that you both want good things for your daughter. Of course your daughter is a unique person and likely to have, as an adult, her own take on the same experiences. Neither of you can predict what that will be.
In general when trying to have a difficult conversation, I find it helpful to identify the one point I really want to make and stick with it. Then at least I can have some certainty that my point is heard, even if it isn't acknowledged in the moment.
posted by bunderful at 6:40 AM on January 23, 2018
Some of his reasons for not wanting her to go into the Mandarin program are not in line with your values, but largely you both are wanting things to go better for her than they did for you and want her to avoid your regrets - you wish you had learned Mandarin when you were young, he "had to start from scratch anyway" when he went to China as an adult which I take to mean he had some instruction when he was a kid and didn't find it valuable. It might be good to acknowledge, to yourself and to him in these discussions, that you both want good things for your daughter. Of course your daughter is a unique person and likely to have, as an adult, her own take on the same experiences. Neither of you can predict what that will be.
In general when trying to have a difficult conversation, I find it helpful to identify the one point I really want to make and stick with it. Then at least I can have some certainty that my point is heard, even if it isn't acknowledged in the moment.
posted by bunderful at 6:40 AM on January 23, 2018
Best answer: I was going to type a bunch of things that on preview were basically just what bonehead said. This is a values conflict.
Find the big picture in his messages - he is trying to communicate it with you and is also floundering trying to come up with reasons that he thinks will resonate with you because he knows you well and knows how you make decisions, and he is trying to assert his (equally valuable) opinion while also trying to convince you. This is normal.
A really good thought exercise is to take all of his points and, instead of putting judgement around them about how they are unreasonable, attach best intentions to them to understand where he is coming from. For example, "He doesn’t like the idea of our kid being around immigrant Chinese kids" can be interpreted as him wanting to protect your child from what he sees as the negative result of his culturally homogeneous educational background, resulting in social struggles that go on to this day. When you say he doesn’t like the school (it’s a lot of low-income people... He prefers the French immersion school because the “calibre of the parents is higher” (ugh), he is trying to express that he sees you both as middle class and wants his daughter to fit in with her peers.
Her social comfort seems to be his highest priority based on the comments you've shared. But for you, her cultural competency seems to rank higher in the priority list. So, are there ways to allow for both things to happen, regardless of where your daughter ultimately goes to school? My gut reaction is that the right choice is the one that maintains the child's feelings of security and harmony, which is to stay at the French immersion school with friends and familiarity. Perhaps a compromise option would be to look into a better Mandarin (or Cantonese) school than the one you were in, or look into bringing more cultural programming into your daughter's existing school through parent groups.
I personally feel very connected to my culture of origin, despite not speaking the language. But this was a deliberate effort on the part of my (divorced) mother. I think the effort was what made the connection, not the availability of services or experiences. Even as a child, my cultural identity was formed by what I did, not what I learned.
posted by juniperesque at 7:13 AM on January 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
Find the big picture in his messages - he is trying to communicate it with you and is also floundering trying to come up with reasons that he thinks will resonate with you because he knows you well and knows how you make decisions, and he is trying to assert his (equally valuable) opinion while also trying to convince you. This is normal.
A really good thought exercise is to take all of his points and, instead of putting judgement around them about how they are unreasonable, attach best intentions to them to understand where he is coming from. For example, "He doesn’t like the idea of our kid being around immigrant Chinese kids" can be interpreted as him wanting to protect your child from what he sees as the negative result of his culturally homogeneous educational background, resulting in social struggles that go on to this day. When you say he doesn’t like the school (it’s a lot of low-income people... He prefers the French immersion school because the “calibre of the parents is higher” (ugh), he is trying to express that he sees you both as middle class and wants his daughter to fit in with her peers.
Her social comfort seems to be his highest priority based on the comments you've shared. But for you, her cultural competency seems to rank higher in the priority list. So, are there ways to allow for both things to happen, regardless of where your daughter ultimately goes to school? My gut reaction is that the right choice is the one that maintains the child's feelings of security and harmony, which is to stay at the French immersion school with friends and familiarity. Perhaps a compromise option would be to look into a better Mandarin (or Cantonese) school than the one you were in, or look into bringing more cultural programming into your daughter's existing school through parent groups.
I personally feel very connected to my culture of origin, despite not speaking the language. But this was a deliberate effort on the part of my (divorced) mother. I think the effort was what made the connection, not the availability of services or experiences. Even as a child, my cultural identity was formed by what I did, not what I learned.
posted by juniperesque at 7:13 AM on January 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
There are certainly options for extra-curricular language instruction for child learners, typically at weekend schools. For example. However, they're generally not considered as effective as immersion though.
posted by bonehead at 8:33 AM on January 23, 2018
posted by bonehead at 8:33 AM on January 23, 2018
I understand your ex's reaction so I think I can answer your question about why he reacted like he did.
He doesn't want to send your child to this school. That's it, pretty much. He doesn't want to have a discussion about it, he doesn't want to go to the info session, he doesn't want to talk to the school about their program, he doesn't want to explain to you or anyone his reasons for not going, he wants to shut this down and go on with his life.
Imagine if he'd e-mailed you saying he had just been at a conference where they advocated putting slices of eggplant on children's heads. Then he phones you that night and launches into demanding you both always leave a slice of eggplant on your kid's head and getting emotional and frustrated that you both don't agree and also seem very disinterested in doing so. You're not interested in going to the conference, you don't see any value in this, but due to being tied to someone through co-parenting you are now having to.
This isn't to say that your child learning mandarin for an hour a day is equivalent to walking around with food on their head, but it's an example you (hopefully) don't have any interest in.
You're absolutely entitled to be annoyed as his reaction and how he handled the conversation, but that's why it happened. Some people very carefully try to extract themselves from conversations they don't want, others throw a grenade into the hole and walk away from it.
posted by Dynex at 9:04 AM on January 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
He doesn't want to send your child to this school. That's it, pretty much. He doesn't want to have a discussion about it, he doesn't want to go to the info session, he doesn't want to talk to the school about their program, he doesn't want to explain to you or anyone his reasons for not going, he wants to shut this down and go on with his life.
Imagine if he'd e-mailed you saying he had just been at a conference where they advocated putting slices of eggplant on children's heads. Then he phones you that night and launches into demanding you both always leave a slice of eggplant on your kid's head and getting emotional and frustrated that you both don't agree and also seem very disinterested in doing so. You're not interested in going to the conference, you don't see any value in this, but due to being tied to someone through co-parenting you are now having to.
This isn't to say that your child learning mandarin for an hour a day is equivalent to walking around with food on their head, but it's an example you (hopefully) don't have any interest in.
You're absolutely entitled to be annoyed as his reaction and how he handled the conversation, but that's why it happened. Some people very carefully try to extract themselves from conversations they don't want, others throw a grenade into the hole and walk away from it.
posted by Dynex at 9:04 AM on January 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
Agreed that his reasons are not what I'd totally agree with, but have you seriously considered what language would be most useful to her as a Canadian citizen? Although the French lessons won't make her a native speaker, she would have greater opportunity to practice it in her life. Mandarin would be nice, and if she has a facility for languages, she could take it later. -IMO nice, but more for sentimental reasons.
posted by BlueHorse at 11:35 AM on January 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by BlueHorse at 11:35 AM on January 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've been thinking about this post all day. To me, this isn't about the school, but in getting better adjusted to the reality of co-parenting. Unfortunately, the person with whom you co-parent and yourself are no longer in a romantic relationship. This impacts a lot of the ways that people in a romantic relationship negotiate disagreements about parenting. No longer does your ex need to do things for you out of love. And you have fewer opportunities to discuss things over an extended period of time. And you have less stuff that you're compromising with each other about, so there is less stuff to "trade." This can be a really tough adjustment for people, especially people that have traditionally been in control for most child-related decisions.
A wise MeFite once said, you have NO control over what happens at the other parent's house other than things that immediately put your child in danger. And the sooner that you get okay with that, the better. (I have a friend where her ex doesn't have their child brush his teeth. This pains her, of course. And she asked nicely that he has the child brush their teeth. But he doesn't care. This sucks. But she has to deal with it. And she has to get into a happy place emotionally to be able to deal with it.)
But also now you both have equal legal rights to decide what happens to your child in ways that are not just at your house - like medical and school decisions. And that's why most jurisdictions have mandatory parenting plans and classes and things so that some of these things are formally decided and sometimes they have to be decided by the court if the parents cannot agree.
And this all sucks, again especially for the parent that is used to making the decisions. But now you have 13 more years of having to make decisions like this with your ex (and then beyond that). So really thinking about how you want these sort of conversations to go -- the format, the tone, and thinking about how you can best manage these discussions to (obvs) be in the best interest of your child, but also in ways that leave you all feeling good about what happened, is key.
So the next time that something like this needs to come up, think about the best way to do it. Maybe this is better face-to-face, maybe it is better over email. Present everything in a business-like way, giving the options and making your position known, but also being ready to bargain. For example, "I took Kid to the dentist today and they suggested that Kid will need braces. I got all of the relevant information about how much this will cost and how much time it will take. Here is the summary: PASTE. We need to think about what we want to do about this. One option is to get a second opinion to see if Kid really needs this. I asked some friends and got some recommendations for other specialists. Another option is to just go with what the dentist recommends. And finally, we could also just wait and see. The dentist said that this is a possibility. Can you please think about this and get back to me in about a week or so? To be honest with you, I'm a little worried about the cost myself [make your position known if that makes sense], but of course I want to do what is best for Kid."
Or another example "Hi there. I wanted to check in with you about !Holiday. I know that in the schedule you have Kid for !Holiday, but my Aunt recently contacted me and she is going to be in !City for that period. Kid and Aunt rarely get to visit, so I'd really like to make that happen, especially because Aunt is getting older and isn't traveling much. I would be happy to switch !Other Holiday with you in exchange. I'd like to tell Aunt what the plan is in about 2 weeks, so if you can think about this and let me know, I'd appreciate it."
posted by k8t at 2:38 PM on January 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
A wise MeFite once said, you have NO control over what happens at the other parent's house other than things that immediately put your child in danger. And the sooner that you get okay with that, the better. (I have a friend where her ex doesn't have their child brush his teeth. This pains her, of course. And she asked nicely that he has the child brush their teeth. But he doesn't care. This sucks. But she has to deal with it. And she has to get into a happy place emotionally to be able to deal with it.)
But also now you both have equal legal rights to decide what happens to your child in ways that are not just at your house - like medical and school decisions. And that's why most jurisdictions have mandatory parenting plans and classes and things so that some of these things are formally decided and sometimes they have to be decided by the court if the parents cannot agree.
And this all sucks, again especially for the parent that is used to making the decisions. But now you have 13 more years of having to make decisions like this with your ex (and then beyond that). So really thinking about how you want these sort of conversations to go -- the format, the tone, and thinking about how you can best manage these discussions to (obvs) be in the best interest of your child, but also in ways that leave you all feeling good about what happened, is key.
So the next time that something like this needs to come up, think about the best way to do it. Maybe this is better face-to-face, maybe it is better over email. Present everything in a business-like way, giving the options and making your position known, but also being ready to bargain. For example, "I took Kid to the dentist today and they suggested that Kid will need braces. I got all of the relevant information about how much this will cost and how much time it will take. Here is the summary: PASTE. We need to think about what we want to do about this. One option is to get a second opinion to see if Kid really needs this. I asked some friends and got some recommendations for other specialists. Another option is to just go with what the dentist recommends. And finally, we could also just wait and see. The dentist said that this is a possibility. Can you please think about this and get back to me in about a week or so? To be honest with you, I'm a little worried about the cost myself [make your position known if that makes sense], but of course I want to do what is best for Kid."
Or another example "Hi there. I wanted to check in with you about !Holiday. I know that in the schedule you have Kid for !Holiday, but my Aunt recently contacted me and she is going to be in !City for that period. Kid and Aunt rarely get to visit, so I'd really like to make that happen, especially because Aunt is getting older and isn't traveling much. I would be happy to switch !Other Holiday with you in exchange. I'd like to tell Aunt what the plan is in about 2 weeks, so if you can think about this and let me know, I'd appreciate it."
posted by k8t at 2:38 PM on January 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for all the great feedback and insights. I was frustrated and flustered, and yes, it is a situation of differing values, which I could sense but wasn't able to really put my finger on it so thanks for that. I also see how I could have went about this differently, and yes, I didn't give him enough advance notice about the info session. He did attend it tonight by the way, I was kind of surprised about that. We haven't talked yet about what we think - I just want to get my thoughts more in order about it.
it sounds like he has a lot of life experience that points him toward feeling like a certain path is better.
Yes, I felt that too. He did French immersion. He learned Mandarin as an adult. However, doesn't my life experience count just as equally? I started non-immersion French in grade 4, found it way easier than Mandarin (I thought I hated all language-learning and sucked at it), and took it all through high school, 4 more years than the mandatory requirement. I had shitty Mandarin instruction as a kid. This program sounds really good (I didn't mention that there's an option of paying for 1 or 2 more hours of Mandarin instruction at the school after 4 pm) and hearing from the parents tonight, the kids become pretty proficient on 2 hours per day. Just because I don't have the *same* life experience with him with these languages doesn't mean his should have more weight? Or should it?...
posted by foxjacket at 10:31 PM on January 24, 2018
it sounds like he has a lot of life experience that points him toward feeling like a certain path is better.
Yes, I felt that too. He did French immersion. He learned Mandarin as an adult. However, doesn't my life experience count just as equally? I started non-immersion French in grade 4, found it way easier than Mandarin (I thought I hated all language-learning and sucked at it), and took it all through high school, 4 more years than the mandatory requirement. I had shitty Mandarin instruction as a kid. This program sounds really good (I didn't mention that there's an option of paying for 1 or 2 more hours of Mandarin instruction at the school after 4 pm) and hearing from the parents tonight, the kids become pretty proficient on 2 hours per day. Just because I don't have the *same* life experience with him with these languages doesn't mean his should have more weight? Or should it?...
posted by foxjacket at 10:31 PM on January 24, 2018
It isn't that is has more or less weight. You both came to a long term agreement and you are the one who wants to change it, so you're in the position of changing his mind. If he wanted to pull her out of school for personal reasons, it would be you in that position.
posted by Dynex at 10:41 AM on January 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Dynex at 10:41 AM on January 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
« Older In search of mediocre white men | Are these actions a violation of employee exempt... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
This won't be the only thing you two will have to work out so maybe it is worthwhile to work with a parenting mediator to sort it out? But in the meantime, can you sort of reboot the conversation and say "Look, I think Parkwood Elementary is an option we need to consider for the following 5 reasons (one being Mandarin). I'd like you to go to the info session so we can discuss it and figure out which school is best for Kid."
It sounds like you're frustrated and flustered in this post. I'd encourage you to think about the pros and cons more plainly and clearly. And also think more clearly about how you're more effectively communicating with your ex on this... Especially to get what you want.
Also you emailed him today and he didn't respond. You called him. IMHO, this might not be the best way to approach this. In my co-parenting that urgency of communication would be for something truly urgent. (Although we have a system of text for urgent, phone for emergency or really immediate and involving logistics 'you are supposed to be here to pick up kid and you are not', email for not urgent, and a shared Google Cal.) In my life, this would have been an email forward with the tour info session information and a note on too 'hey, here's the tour of the other elementary school we need to check out. Please make sure you attend. Thanks.' Did you need to hear back from him tonight? Your urgency may be pushing his buttons and that's not what you want right now to have a decent conversation about this.
And is this the hill you want to die on? One hour of language instruction daily (and at the end of the day!) is not going to make your child a fluent speaker. (My kid has had a similar amount of time in Spanish for 4 years now and his language skills are really poor, as are many of his friends'. Like this is a tiny factor of his school day.) I personally wouldn't put as much weight on this Mandarin program versus other stuff. Are both schools equally convenient to your homes? What's the aftercare like? Other programs? Community? If kid likes her current school and has friends there, is it really worth it to move her?
posted by k8t at 12:09 AM on January 23, 2018 [10 favorites]