This must have been asked before, mustn't it?
January 9, 2018 6:52 PM Subscribe
The use of the term "mustn't" seems really weird if you think about it, yet it is used regularly. How did this term come to be? What does it actually mean in literal terms?
This question arises from conversation I had the other day, which I finished with "I must have, mustn't I?". A minute later I found myself wondering how on earth such a phrase came to be standard, as the expanded "I must have, must not I?" sounds both ridiculous and non-sensical. So what are we saying when we use this and how did it come to be?
I have googled this but most of what I have found concerns what is correct standard usage and what is not. I understand how to use this phrase, I don't understand what I'm actually saying in a literal sense though. Some of the answers are on linguistic forums and I struggle to follow such answers when they get technical, as with many English speakers I wasn't really taught grammar or linguistics. Also, I believe this may not be generally used in North America, trust me when I say it's correct and standard here.
This question arises from conversation I had the other day, which I finished with "I must have, mustn't I?". A minute later I found myself wondering how on earth such a phrase came to be standard, as the expanded "I must have, must not I?" sounds both ridiculous and non-sensical. So what are we saying when we use this and how did it come to be?
I have googled this but most of what I have found concerns what is correct standard usage and what is not. I understand how to use this phrase, I don't understand what I'm actually saying in a literal sense though. Some of the answers are on linguistic forums and I struggle to follow such answers when they get technical, as with many English speakers I wasn't really taught grammar or linguistics. Also, I believe this may not be generally used in North America, trust me when I say it's correct and standard here.
as the expanded "I must have, must not I?" sounds both ridiculous and non-sensical.
"I did it, didn't I?" is the same construction, which probably doesn't sound as weird. "Mustn't" is a bit formal, so it's not heard much in the day-to-day, but pick up some British lit like Wodehouse and they'll probably be falling off the page. I also want to say it might be more common in Little House on the Prairie pioneer-era stories.
posted by rhizome at 7:14 PM on January 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
"I did it, didn't I?" is the same construction, which probably doesn't sound as weird. "Mustn't" is a bit formal, so it's not heard much in the day-to-day, but pick up some British lit like Wodehouse and they'll probably be falling off the page. I also want to say it might be more common in Little House on the Prairie pioneer-era stories.
posted by rhizome at 7:14 PM on January 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
Same with “aren’t I”. It’s a contraction of an archaic syntax, that’s all.
posted by nicwolff at 7:24 PM on January 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by nicwolff at 7:24 PM on January 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm trying my hardest to bring "shan't" back
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:10 PM on January 9, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:10 PM on January 9, 2018 [13 favorites]
Wikipedia calls this a tag question, but notes that British grammarians use the term "question tag". Wiktionary has an appendix and list of examples.
The Wikipedia article says of tag questions in English,
Glancing through the editions of Wikipedia in other languages they mostly seem to be discussing the phenomenon as used in English, which would seem to confirm that English tag questions may be of a form uncommon among languages worldwide.
posted by XMLicious at 11:44 PM on January 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Wikipedia article says of tag questions in English,
English tag questions, when they have the grammatical form of a question, are atypically complex, because they vary according to at least three factors: the choice of auxiliary, the negation and the intonation pattern. This is unique among the Germanic languages, but the Celtic languages operate in a very similar way. For the theory that English has borrowed its system of tag questions from Brittonic, see Brittonicisms in English.(Brittonic being the sub-family of Celtic languages which includes Welsh, I think; though the article also offers examples from Scottish Gaelic.)
Glancing through the editions of Wikipedia in other languages they mostly seem to be discussing the phenomenon as used in English, which would seem to confirm that English tag questions may be of a form uncommon among languages worldwide.
posted by XMLicious at 11:44 PM on January 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Separate from the tag question question, three of the "not" contractions in English are stranger than the others. One is used ubiquitously, the other two very seldom.
won't
shan't - aforementioned - fading along with "shall"
dassn't
posted by megatherium at 4:18 AM on January 10, 2018
won't
shan't - aforementioned - fading along with "shall"
dassn't
posted by megatherium at 4:18 AM on January 10, 2018
I think the "have" may be what's throwing you more than the contraction - that it feels like it should be "I must have, must I not have?" but you lose that extra "have" somewhere? So a better parallel might be "would" -- "I would have, wouldn't I?" We just lose the extra word as part of contracting. Which may be completely unrelated, but reminds me of how in some instances British English speakers say "I should do" or "They must do" where Americans will just say "I should" or "They must."
won't
shan't - aforementioned - fading along with "shall"
dassn't
Isn't dassn't from "dare not"?
posted by Mchelly at 7:18 AM on January 10, 2018
won't
shan't - aforementioned - fading along with "shall"
dassn't
Isn't dassn't from "dare not"?
posted by Mchelly at 7:18 AM on January 10, 2018
I'm trying my hardest to bring "shan't" back
I regularly sing "they shan't defeat us / we'll fight 'til the game is won", along with several thousand others. That word is alive & well.
posted by rd45 at 7:34 AM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
I regularly sing "they shan't defeat us / we'll fight 'til the game is won", along with several thousand others. That word is alive & well.
posted by rd45 at 7:34 AM on January 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
I wonder if the usage was more common when more people were taught formal rhetoric and elocution in school. The question part is often rhetorical, and expanded, "I must, must I not?" seems like a very basic form of the "A B, B A" structure of chiasmus.
posted by yeahlikethat at 10:00 AM on January 10, 2018
posted by yeahlikethat at 10:00 AM on January 10, 2018
I'm trying my hardest to bring "shan't" back
After you finish with that can you help me with "willn't"?
posted by rhizome at 11:58 AM on January 10, 2018
After you finish with that can you help me with "willn't"?
posted by rhizome at 11:58 AM on January 10, 2018
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posted by kevinbelt at 6:56 PM on January 9, 2018 [4 favorites]