Indo-Iranian Religion
January 7, 2018 7:33 AM Subscribe
Are there any texts written by pre-zoroastrian Iranians (or however you want to label the ancient culture of the time? Or if not, what are the best reading materials detailing most specifically the religious landscape of the area where Zoroaster lived before his time?
I am particularly interested in the ancient writings of the area- given that there were many cultures with written language in the area, the Elamites, the Hurrians, Assyrians etc... do any of the ancient writings depict any of the religious concepts described in the Gathas? And given the people who wrote the Gathas were clearly already literate, are there any writings from those people's from before Zoroaster? I'm also interested in any writings about The linguistic and religious overlap with the Vedas.
Bonus points if you can point to an extensive discussion whether in a book or online or wherever of the textual attestations Indra in the Zoroastrian or pre-Zoroastrian Indo-Iranian religions (I.e. anywhere outside the Vedas. I am aware he is mentioned in name by texts of the Mittani kingdom and apparently was written about supposedly both positively and negatively in the Avestan texts but I wasn't able to find the specific quotes about him as of yet.)
I am particularly interested in the ancient writings of the area- given that there were many cultures with written language in the area, the Elamites, the Hurrians, Assyrians etc... do any of the ancient writings depict any of the religious concepts described in the Gathas? And given the people who wrote the Gathas were clearly already literate, are there any writings from those people's from before Zoroaster? I'm also interested in any writings about The linguistic and religious overlap with the Vedas.
Bonus points if you can point to an extensive discussion whether in a book or online or wherever of the textual attestations Indra in the Zoroastrian or pre-Zoroastrian Indo-Iranian religions (I.e. anywhere outside the Vedas. I am aware he is mentioned in name by texts of the Mittani kingdom and apparently was written about supposedly both positively and negatively in the Avestan texts but I wasn't able to find the specific quotes about him as of yet.)
Response by poster: Sorry if that was unclear; I was referring to Indra not zoroaster as being referenced by in Mittani texts. I'm particularly interested in Indras earlier origins and whether the "thunder gods" that are often equated as equivalent actually were the same diety that split of or were simply different peoples experiences or manifestations of a thunder deity. As mentioned here and in all references I can find about the Mittani;"The first one is a treaty in which the king of Mitanni swears by a series of gods with Hurrian names and concludes with the Indic Mi-it-ra, Aru-na, In-da-ra, and Na-sa-at-tita (Mitra, Varuna, Indra, Nasatya)"
The Mitanni are an interesting culture because they are believed to have been indo-iranians from before the split into iranian vs vedic but my understanding is they were using Hurrian language and I can't find much info on their writings other than a few deals they made which refer to some deities in their pantheon and record keeping. I would love to find more ancient texts that come from the time of the indo-iranian religion- interestingly in my digging I've been finding the Chinese were keeping records that mention some of the indo European peoples living to the west of central asia such as in bactria.
posted by xarnop at 10:43 AM on January 7, 2018
The Mitanni are an interesting culture because they are believed to have been indo-iranians from before the split into iranian vs vedic but my understanding is they were using Hurrian language and I can't find much info on their writings other than a few deals they made which refer to some deities in their pantheon and record keeping. I would love to find more ancient texts that come from the time of the indo-iranian religion- interestingly in my digging I've been finding the Chinese were keeping records that mention some of the indo European peoples living to the west of central asia such as in bactria.
posted by xarnop at 10:43 AM on January 7, 2018
The theory I heard was that the Mitanni were probably originally a small number of charioteers who were hired as mercenaries, and then staged a coup and ruled over a mostly Hurrian population.
The book I’m familiar with is The Horse, the Wheel, and Language, by David W. Anthony. It’s broadly about the origins of the Proto-Indo-Europeans, mostly from an archeological point of view. You probably aren’t going to find much writing that is older than the Rig Veda though.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 12:48 PM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
The book I’m familiar with is The Horse, the Wheel, and Language, by David W. Anthony. It’s broadly about the origins of the Proto-Indo-Europeans, mostly from an archeological point of view. You probably aren’t going to find much writing that is older than the Rig Veda though.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 12:48 PM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: My understanding is that there are texts from 1500BC and far older from the Elamites, from Ugarit, the babylonians, Assyrians, Akkadians, Sumerians all have extant literature in varying amounts but it's hard to find translations. I have a book with some Sumerian texts translated. I guess there are aren't as many scholars of ancient writing systems sitting around on askme waiting to answer my ancient religion questions as I thought lol... ;)
I guess the main thing is that the Rig Veda is translated and easily available so more people know it's contents, I'm slowly learning to the deities and religious systems of these ancient cultures but if anyone else is doing also and have recommended reading material please do let me know!
posted by xarnop at 3:37 PM on January 7, 2018
I guess the main thing is that the Rig Veda is translated and easily available so more people know it's contents, I'm slowly learning to the deities and religious systems of these ancient cultures but if anyone else is doing also and have recommended reading material please do let me know!
posted by xarnop at 3:37 PM on January 7, 2018
Maybe try Reddit's r/AskHistorians. Unlike most of Reddit they seem to be well moderated and to draw on a pretty big pool of expertise.
posted by col_pogo at 7:29 PM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by col_pogo at 7:29 PM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Empires of the Silk Road is an odd book which covers a much broader area than you're looking for, but it does claim northeastern Iran as part of its remit, and it does contain some origin stories. I believe that most of them were recorded later than what you're looking for, but it might be interesting to look into in any event.
posted by clawsoon at 4:53 AM on January 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 4:53 AM on January 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Puhvel's Comparative Mythology would be a good source for tracing a lot of the concepts and deities back. When I took a course on this stuff in college, that's what we used.
posted by karbonokapi at 8:52 PM on January 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by karbonokapi at 8:52 PM on January 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
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Do you have a citation for this? When do you assume that Zoroaster lived? The Mitanni kingdom was from c. 1500–1300 BCE, which means that the Mitanni would have left the Indo-Iranian tribes long before most scholars say Zoroaster lived.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:32 AM on January 7, 2018