Talking about affairs

January 29, 2006 5:39 PM

My friend's wife is having an affair. What are the prospects at this point for my friend?

I just found out about this tonight, but here's what I know:

- She met the other person through an intellectually-oriented hobby all three of them enjoy; it started as a friendship but crossed the line a few months ago.

- My friend is about 39, she is in her mid or late 20s, so there is an age dynamic at work I'm sure. The affair guy is about 30. I know them and I have always known them as typical respectable middle-class folks.

- He recently talked to the affair guy on the phone; apparently he lied about it (probably out of surprise) and said he didn't know he was hurting the other's feelings by talking about the marriage (e.g. my friend's wife probably confided in the guy).

- She moved out a few months ago into her own place, and said she needed to think things over. I don't know how how this coincided with the affair.

- He asked her to stop seeing the guy, she said no.

- I don't know any details about how their relationship is or was. They married about 4 years ago. No kids.

I'm just trying to get a feel for his outlook... I am not optimistic myself but I'm going to point him at this thread, and I figure he might get some interesting perspectives here, for better or for worse. How has this kind of thing played out with people you know?

posted by zek to society & culture (26 comments total)

Divorce. Duh. If she isn't going to stop the affair, he'd be a moron for trying to make it work.
posted by cellphone at 5:47 PM on January 29, 2006

No kids, 4 years, at least 1 affair. I just went through this exact same thing. Tell him to get ready to move on.
posted by ill3 at 5:51 PM on January 29, 2006

If she moved out a few months ago, this is certainly a trial separation that has turned into a more permanent one. The age issues wouldn't necessarily be a big deal, but she married early and is now at an age when many women make major life changes. If you put any credence in astrology, you can call it her Saturn return.

I think the marriage if most certainly over. The window where it might have been salvaged is probably long since past, now that she's out of the house, and in another relationship.
posted by kimdog at 5:52 PM on January 29, 2006

- He asked her to stop seeing the guy, she said no.


This right here makes any speculation about the outlook a complete no brainer. They're done, and she's a terrible person so your friend is better off for it anyway.

He should document her response to asking her to stop seeing the guy, and should file for a divorce, stating this as the reason. She deserves nothing but will probably get something anyway. Thankfully no kids are involved.

The best thing your friend can do is move on. He will never regain trust for her, and will be neurotic about her whereabouts whenever she's not around for years to come, if not forever. You don't have to be the "jealous type" to turn into this - all it takes is being cheated on.


Friend of zek: I'm really sorry. It's tough to go through. I've never been married, but I've been cheated on more than once, so I understand your pain.
posted by twiggy at 5:53 PM on January 29, 2006

Sounds like the nymph (trophy wife?) is dumping the sugar daddy in favor of true love.
posted by camworld at 5:57 PM on January 29, 2006

They're done, and she's a terrible person

Good lord! One has no idea of what was going on in this relationship. It may well have been Hell on Earth for her, or just boring, or whatever. Please let's not be so quick to condemn.
posted by fish tick at 6:05 PM on January 29, 2006

I doubt the true love stuff, but this relationship looks over. If she has moved out and is not willing to stop the affair it looks like she has given up on it. Once that happens the chances for repair approach zero. Your pal could blow some dough on a marriage counselor. If she won't go then you can just move straight to the divorce. Basically, you can not make someone love you and at this point the wife is showing no signs that she loves your bud, and quite the opposite. He will need a good friend or two to help him through this, mostly just lots of listening on your part as he transitions through the stages of grief. All you have to do is be there, and perhaps make sure he doesn't drink too much or blame himself too much.
posted by caddis at 6:08 PM on January 29, 2006

I've known marriages that have survived affairs; I've known marriages that haven't (my best friend was just dumped by her husband for anther woman). It can depend on many, many factors, but in this case the fact that the wife is refusing to give up her paramour doesn't bode well, particularly when combined with moving out to "think things over." I think your friend ought to contact a lawyer, pronto; if his wife is at all interested in actually salvaging the marriage, that might shock her into action/remorse, but I wouldn't bet on it.
posted by scody at 6:10 PM on January 29, 2006

He asked her to stop seeing the guy, she said no.

Notice how everyone has sunk their teeth into this line? I'm possibly the most vocal opponent of divorce on MetaFilter...but with that in his path, your friend is left with little choice.
posted by cribcage at 6:10 PM on January 29, 2006

If she moved out months ago and hasn't come back, and has no intention of stopping the relationship with the other guy, it really does sound over to me. It sounds like she's moved on.

How much contact do they have? Do they still have sex? Does she make contact with him? Does the other guy live in the new place with her - I think all these things make a difference.

Could you clarify what you mean about the phone call though? I don't understand what happened, or who lied to who...
posted by crabintheocean at 6:11 PM on January 29, 2006

It's over.

Marriage counseling requires compromise on both sides, and her refusal to end the affair, even temporarily, suggests that any such attempt would be futile.

Here are my suggestions for your friend:

1. File for divorce now. As the aggrieved party, your friend has a very good chance of receiving a favorable division of assets, but this might decrease if he delays the initial filing. Asset distribution is a human process, and the ajudicators may consider any delay as a sign that his grievance really wasn't that grief-worthy. There will be adequate time for reconsiderations once the process has commenced.

2. Check the laws in your state. If they allow for Alienation of Affection lawsuits, advise your friend to consider filing one.
posted by The Confessor at 6:34 PM on January 29, 2006

RE: The Confessor's second suggestion, there appears not to be many states left that recognize the right to bring an alienation of affections lawsuit. But here's the list.

I'm not endorsing this action, but I was curious and looked it up.
posted by mojohand at 7:15 PM on January 29, 2006

I have a really hard time labeling this an "affair". She moved out, and now she's dating again, divorce pending. At least she likely sees it that way. A "trial separation" almsot generally means at least checking out the greenness of the grass on the other side of the fence.

If, and only if, she insists that this is a fling that may run its course, and is accepting of the consequences for the marriage, is there a slim chance of recovery from this for your friend. But the odds are exceptionally against it, and I don't know why he would want it at this point.

know them and I have always known them as typical respectable middle-class folks.

You know, lots of respectable middle-class folks have unhappy marriages.

Grief over death and lost relationships follows a similar pattern. Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance. I think your friend is still in Denial here; he doesn't seem to have reached Angry (which will likely be with his wife). Understand this is something he has to wrestle with himself, but you can help by pointing out the steps along the way.
posted by dhartung at 7:57 PM on January 29, 2006

File now, file first.

Doing that, and it was the hardest thing I've ever done, was the only thing that allowed me to get custody of my son, and I got more in the settlement. Filing first gives you the final closing arguments in a divorce case, if it gets to trial.

Also, document *everything*
posted by DragonBoy at 8:19 PM on January 29, 2006

Good lord! One has no idea of what was going on in this relationship. It may well have been Hell on Earth for her, or just boring, or whatever. Please let's not be so quick to condemn.

Fish tick: This is a terrible, horrible response.

Let's just say hypothetically that it WAS bad for her. Let's say the guy in this relationship is a jerk, just for the sake of argument.

You don't cheat on someone and then say to your husband "No, I will not stop my affair".

If the guy is being a jerk, you break up with him, even if just verbally and not an official divorce (yet). You don't cheat behind someone's back and keep staying in the marriage - especially when there are no children stuck in the middle.

I maintain what I said: She is a terrible person.
posted by twiggy at 8:56 PM on January 29, 2006

They're done, and she's a terrible person

Agreed. Over. Done. Kaput. Document everything (e.g. the phone calls, the dates, etc). Get a lawyer. Strike hard. Strike fast. Don't get screwed.
posted by frogan at 9:28 PM on January 29, 2006

Cheating behind someone's back is a terrible thing to do to another person, but it doesn't mean the cheater herself is a terrible person. If one went about love from a purely rational, logical standpoint that would be an easy argument to make, but emotions queer the bargain, and we really have no extraneous details with which to make any judgement about her. Be a little less hasty in condemnation, guys!
posted by soviet sleepover at 9:33 PM on January 29, 2006

She moved out a few months ago, and she hasn't brought up divorce yet? Sounds to me like she's having her cake and eating it too. Late 20s, husband over a decade older, no kids yet? I bet she's trying to decide what to do with the rest of her life, and her husband is giving her the courtesy of letting her try on a new life while staying connected to her old one.

If that's at all the case, your friend should respect himself more than that.

Even without knowing any of the real dynamics of what's going on, her behavior speaks loudly enough: file now.
posted by LooseFilter at 12:43 AM on January 30, 2006

what scody said.
posted by matteo at 12:58 AM on January 30, 2006

Cheating behind someone's back is a terrible thing to do to another person, but it doesn't mean the cheater herself is a terrible person.

Doing something terrible to another person makes you a terrible person in my book.

I don't understand why your friend thinks there's any hope at all? And also, zek, he's going to need you bigtime now.
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:16 AM on January 30, 2006

zek - he's gotta file. He should have filed the minute he "knew" - and your friend knew a lot earlier than he actually had the realization. It's a tough thing to know.

What's his mental state right now?
posted by TeamBilly at 6:18 AM on January 30, 2006

Fish tick: This is a terrible, horrible response.

Au contraire, it was a great response. I'm always amazed to see how quick people are around here to judge people about whom they know nothing except what some third party (or in this case fourth party) tells them over the internet. I can easily imagine the friend's wife posting a question from her point of view and the AskMe crowd responding "You go girl! Live your life!" &c &c. People are complicated, life is complicated. In this case, it's pretty safe to say the marriage is over; to go beyond that and try to judge the parties involved is arrogant and childish.
posted by languagehat at 6:47 AM on January 30, 2006

People are complicated, life is complicated. In this case, it's pretty safe to say the marriage is over; to go beyond that and try to judge the parties involved is arrogant and childish.

Yet more mature, level-headed, disspassionate wisdom from languagehat. And no, I am not being sarcastic. More people on this joint need to repeat that as a mantra before answering any thread.
posted by spicynuts at 8:09 AM on January 30, 2006

First of all, what fish tick and languagehat said. Really. zek himself tells us in his OP that he doesn't have all the facts to give us, and so recommending any course of action is foolhardy, and zek isn't asking us to recommend anything.

But with that nod to propriety, the OP's questions were "What are the prospects at this point for my friend?" and "How has this kind of thing played out with people you know?"

Addressing the first, your friend's prospects fall into at least a couple of categories, zek. Broadly, I'd label the first bucket something like emotional/psychological/social and the second one legal/financial. At this point, just categorizing whatever issues he's dealing with into even two such buckets may be tough. But he'll have to do that, eventually, and until he can start thinking in those terms (if he hasn't already), it would be good to keep his head down, his options open, and his cards close to his vest. But that doesn't mean he has to be passive; nothing wrong with seeking credible information and professional advice to understand thoroughly the divorce process in his jurisdiction, as well as the counseling and reconciliation options. However, he needs to realize that whatever professional help he seeks or gets is going to be pretty narrowly focused in one bucket or the other, but he may need both. In my experience, lawyers make lousy therapists and therapists make lousy lawyers, and it's important to listen to both, but take responsibility yourself for balancing advice you get in both areas, without confusing the two. But taking stock of himself, collecting business cards/going for initial consultations, and avoiding making bad moves or snap decisions can help him avoid making a difficult situation worse, or unrecoverable.

At this point, his tactical prospects are pretty obviously broadly either to reconcile/renew or to split, but I've observed that there is continuum of human behavior along any polar dichotomy; maybe your friend and his wife will find some middle course over time. I don't have any insight into what is possible in the relationship at this point, if anything, but at this point, your friend and his wife are still married, and there is a general societal presumption that supports helping married people remain married, because all marriages have tough patches, and no marriage would survive if there wasn't some societal pressure to encourage partners having problems to work things out. He and his wife are entitled to the understanding and support of friends and family, now, as much as they day they were married, even though, at this point, their marriage is on "time out," and they shouldn't have to ask for that, or explain whatever actions they choose to take, until such time as they feel they want to do so.

So, at this point, your friend mainly needs to think about the question raised cinematically by Sean Connery's character Jim Malone in The Untouchables: "What are you prepared to do?" That's really hard for a lot of people to answer, particularly in a major crisis/transition situation, and they fall into becoming a reactor, instead of being captain of their own destiny, or getting sidetracked by what they think is an equally important question, which is "What do I want?" What he wants is maybe interesting, if impossible, but what he's prepared to do will govern everything from this point on. It will be better, by far, if your friend can come to his own answers about this, than feel he has to sort through all those he's bound to get, unsolicited, in the coming months, and take positions he feels he's expected to take. It's OK to for him to ask for advice, and to hear the opinions and life stories of others, but in the end, your friend needs to feel his own feelings, and hear his own thoughts. Too many guys in his situation, in my experience, do what others expect of them, trying to save some face, or get through it all on automatic pilot, even to the point of "letting the lawyers handle it."

So to sum up on the prospects question, I think your friend's prospects are going to be largely determined by his own mindset and actions. It may not seem to be possible to make the marriage work, but infidelity is not, so far as we as a society can understand, the most certain cause of divorce. His job as husband, even one possibly headed into a divorce, is to act with wisdom and strength, and to cultivate and protect himself if remaining a husband is not possible.

Turning to the second question of the OP, I, too was once cuckolded. It was awful. I wouldn't wish the experience on my worst enemy, as revenge. In truth, I wasn't the best husband, but I was faithful, and we had an expressed understanding regarding fidelity when we married; whatever my failings as a husband, by the time I found out, we both knew the marriage was over. Because I traveled constantly on business, and was pre-occupied with success, my wife actually had to go the great lengths of becoming, in my absences, not only an alcoholic but an adulteress before I got that message. But once I finally got it, we both had the same unspoken expectation, and we resolutely marched in front of a divorce judge, just as resolutely as we'd marched down the aisle. She and her rich boss/boyfriend paid me something for the hit to my pride, and I later used some of the money to bail her out of jail on a DUI, and put her in a treatment program. By then, she was pregnant with his baby, and once she sobered up, she quit making the 2:00 a.m. drunken phone calls to me, cleaned up her act, moved back to her mother's home, and last I saw her, was making a life as a single mother for the sake of her child.

But I've seen it go the other way, too. Infidelity is not always a cause of divorce. A close friend of mine, knowing my history as a cuckold, came to me once, having evidence about his own wife's infidelity, and asking my advice. I told him I couldn't tell him what to do, or what to feel, but that I'd listen to what he had to say, and try to help him if I thought I could. He spilled a bunch of stuff about himself I'd otherwise have never known, and I just listened, because I was caught off guard, and didn't really know what to say. Over the next couple of weeks, that's mostly all I could do. What I was hearing needed to be heard by someone, I was sure, but I had no idea of what to tell him. I gave him the name of a good lawyer, and a good psychiatrist. I called him at his hotel in the mornings to make sure he was up, sober, and headed to work. I drove him to his hotel a couple of times from a bar, when he'd had too much, and took him back to pickup his car the next morning. And over time, he figured out what he wanted, which was to try to make a go of it. It took him three weeks to get to that decision, but when he got there, he was sure about it. And he went back home, and said his piece, and they went on. I've seen him and his wife a number of times in the intervening 20 years, and both of them have thanked me for helping them get back together. But all I did, really, was listen to him, and I only did that, because I really didn't know what else to do. Last I heard, they were celebrating 30 years of marriage.
posted by paulsc at 9:33 AM on January 30, 2006 [1 favorite]

Get a good lawyer and nail her ass to the wall in divorce court. Your friend needs to stand up or he could really get taken to the cleaners.
posted by drstein at 10:07 AM on January 30, 2006

[a few comments removed, if you want to talk about whether cheaters are horrible people, or about MLK or Hitler, please take it to MetaTalk]
posted by jessamyn at 12:27 PM on January 30, 2006