Friends saying mean things?
October 14, 2017 12:10 AM   Subscribe

I am a woman in her 30s. My friends, also women in their 30s, will occasionally say things that I find very hurtful. I know how to handle this in romantic relationships but not so much in non-romantic contexts. When should I say something, and what should I say?

I am not a particularly sensitive person, so I trust that when my feelings are hurt, it is real. This does not happen with all my friends, but I do notice that it happens with enough of them that I see a pattern of people being pretty darn unkind (e.g., a friend recently told me I was a shitty friend and then said "it's ok because we are both shitty friends!"; another friend recently texted me back in all caps "IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER" when I was getting ready for a date and asked our group text what I should wear, something many of us do with one another and is usually fun to dish about, I thought).

I have no idea how to say something to a friend about these kinds of things. I've definitely messed up multiple friendships by doing things like saying "Hey, things seem "off" lately and if something is going on with our friendship, I would love to talk about it," or by saying things like "I found that comment hurtful." Never have these discussions gone well, and they always seem to irrevocably "break" the relationship in a fundamental way -- I would not do this multiple times with someone, by the way, so it's not like I am asking over and over to "talk" about the friendship. As a result of this, and some other factors (moving around a lot for my demanding career, the amount of time my career takes), I do not have many friends and I certainly have not ever had the ability to "hold on" to friends for more than about 5 years. There is no one in my life aside from family (e.g., parents, cousins -- I am unmarried) that I have known for longer than 6 years. At my age, this seems rare. I don't have a problem making friends, but I certainly have a problem keeping them.

If my goals are to (1) Keep friends for a longer period of time, and (2) Communicate with my friends when I do not feel good because they aren't being kind to me, how do I achieve them both? Or is communicating these things something that I should not do if I do want to hold on to people for the long haul? I think kindness is very important, and I do very much think before I speak and am careful to not say things to friends that could be hurtful; when I do, I apologize and kind of never forget it (although I do not bring it up again or anything).

I have also long felt like a punching bag for men (both literally and figuratively), and have heard things ranging from "you're grotesque" to "thinking about spending time with you makes me sick to my stomach" to "have you thought about a labiaplasty" to "you're not as smart as you think" to "you are really self-centered" from people I have dated seriously. Are most people actually just unkind, am I an easy target, or what?
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (25 answers total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
“Whoa dude, chill out”

It’s not going to make people like you MORE but it draws a boundary without a touchy-feely conversation about the friendship.

It’s very possible if someone is being this rude to you and your earnest inquiry into their feelings ends the relationship, that they were already annoyed for some reason and ready to stop being friends. It’s OK to stop being friends with someone! (In the sense that you really shouldn’t feel bad if they back off.)

Many people are actually unkind! Unfortunately!
posted by stoneandstar at 12:22 AM on October 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


No, you're not an easy target. It's ok to break a friendship. Make sure that when you speak, you don't speak with anger. If your friend goes, "oh, I was just bantering," I guess you could banter back. Some people love to say things like "you're a bitch" and "you're a bitch back" to their best friends (I've never done that but I know it's a thing). I have also said very cruel things to partners under the guise that we both knew it was a joke. We got into a very safe space together over time though. They knew that these were love bites, not regular bites, so to speak.

If you are actually hurt, it's ok to be hurt. I don't think your feelings are unreasonable. Text also strips away all nuance. Don't stew, but please also don't feel like you're the Odd Person Out when people are mean. It's ok to bring it up. (In person! For God's sake in person). If your friends really are rude, it's ok to not have them be Your Person. Not everyone will be Your Person, and if you're good at making friends, what will be will be, you can just start over with new ones. But don't get your brain in a negative loop about it, if someone makes you sad on purpose, they are not your friend, and if they didn't do it on purpose, then all's well, you just gotta sort it out and it will get sorted out.

Btw I don't think you messed up any friendships by bringing such things up in the past. I'd be delighted at some level if one of my friends told me I hurt their feelings. It'd be bad news (something to fix!) but also a sign they cared and were actually invested in the friendship. Don't take the blame for that.
posted by karmachameleon at 12:22 AM on October 14, 2017 [6 favorites]


Not convinced your friends are very nice. If that kind of response is typical of someone and you don't appreciate that kind of response perhaps you need to find a kinder person to be friends with. If these people are mere acquaintances you could try lowering your expectations. If they are friends draw a boundary and see what happens. At the end of the day if you'd like people in your life who treat you with kindness and are supportive you need to keep looking until you find these people. That includes 'losing' the ones that are hurtful.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:50 AM on October 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


Most people are not generally unkind.

I find that people who can casually toss off hurtful remarks like the ones you've mentioned without quickly apologizing ("Sorry, I'm having a shitty day!" or "Whoa! I did NOT mean for that to come out that way; I'm sorry.") are not people you want to have as friends. Mentally, I would take note of their behavior and not hang out with that person anymore. If they're part of a larger group of friends, I would try to hang out with the other members of the group one on one or when the mean person wasn't around. Eliminating hurtful people from your life is a feature, not a bug. People who care about you do not purposefully make you feel bad.

If you wanted to address it at the time without appearing confrontational, you could give them the benefit of the doubt by asking an honest question and seeing how they respond. To the texter, you could say, "Whoa, Janice! Are you ok?" If they come back at you defensively and with more mean talk, then you know that you've got a dud in your friend group and should act accordingly. If they realize what they said was hurtful and quickly apologize, give them another chance, but if this kind of remark because habitual, just drop them. It's not worth it.

As for the men who've made such remarks to you, they are garbage people. Those are incredibly hurtful, not ok things to say to a person. I don't know if they're jealous of your career or trying to neg you or what, but it really doesn't matter. Anyone who would say such things to a person is trying to hurt their soul. There's no coming back from that. One thing that I've always been embarrassed about when I was younger was my inability to hide my feelings; my mom used to say that you could read every expression right on my face. I hated that! I always wanted to appear cool, calm, and collected, like Mr. Spock. Nowadays, I actually let this work in my favor in awkward situations. When someone says something mean or hurtful or racist, I just remain silent and let my face do the talking; then I pick up my things and leave. When someone shows you who they are, believe them.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 3:32 AM on October 14, 2017 [22 favorites]


e.g., a friend recently told me I was a shitty friend and then said "it's ok because we are both shitty friends!"; another friend recently texted me back in all caps "IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER" when I was getting ready for a date and asked our group text what I should wear...

Just as a counter-point to the above, neither of these things would remotely register as mean within my friend group or communications.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:20 AM on October 14, 2017 [30 favorites]


I don't have a problem making friends, but I certainly have a problem keeping them.
May I present another alternative?
You may have a problem picking friends.

They don't sound like nice people, they sound like mean, albeit young people, but in today's world it's hard to determine tone, context or intention in written messages such as texts, FB messages or Tweets.

I would push back, one on one, privately, as much as you feel comfortable with. We teach others how to treat us, and you need to either teach these people to treat you better, or you need to find better friends.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 5:33 AM on October 14, 2017 [36 favorites]


“I have also long felt like a punching bag for men (both literally and figuratively)“

You say this almost flippantly but if it’s true: you have been physically and emotionally beaten by your romantic partners. That is awful. It may have also affected your ability to recognise when people around you are not good for you if you have become accustomed to abuse and bullying to the extent you can mention it as an aside. The treatment of your friends sounds like that of bullies, not friends. Standard askme answer but therapy would help you recognise patterns in your relationships and friendships and maybe give you tools for finding and growing healthier relationships with people who do not treat you this way.
posted by mymbleth at 5:56 AM on October 14, 2017 [20 favorites]


This is such a highly personal thing... some people consider what you've described as within the range of acceptable behavior and others see it as a red flag.

Personally, I'm in the red flag camp. I have zero patience for toxic people in my life. I define toxic as feeling emotionally drained, used, cut down, insulted, or if the person is a constant
source of negativity. If someone is having a bad day, that's one thing. I have a lot of patience and empathy, but I have a limit and I stick to it.

I have about ten close friends that I absolutely treasure, and none of them have ever spoken to me in this way. Some of of them I've been known for most of my life, many are newer relationships. I get the feeling that, in my newer friendships, people *really* don't want drama and make a conscious effort to treat each other well. We have a hell of a good time and lots of laughs. I tend to have a self deprecating sense of humor and I take certain things lightly, so I if somehow makes a joke at my expense it's OK because I do it all the time, but there's trust there and I know it's not malicious.

e.g., a friend recently told me I was a shitty friend and then said "it's ok because we are both shitty friends!"; another friend recently texted me back in all caps "IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER" when I was getting ready for a date and asked our group text what I should wear...

When I first read this, I thought, if anyone talked to me this way I'd be drop them in a second. Then I read it a second time, and what's missing the context for these comments. Your post reads like you don't quite trust these people to be kind to you. If you don't have trust and they are taking more than they add, follow your gut and find new friends.

There are far too many kind people in the world to constantly question people's motives at best and be disrespected at worst. Cutting people from your life isn't always a terrible thing. I think of it less like, "Am I oversensitive? Is it me?" and more like a garden. I prune my life of negative relationships with so good things can grow. It might sound corny but I'm blessed with good relationships based on mutual respect and goodwill.

Also, you sound like a very thoughtful, conscious, caring, respectful person. All of the qualities that make a great friend. Whatever you do, be sure to honor that and don't lower your standards because people tell you that you are oversensitive.

Oversensitivity is a topic that comes up a lot. I think of it as being conscious of how you treat people, having self respect and expecting the same in return. Anyone who plays the oversensitivity card when they treat you like shit is being manipulative, because it's easier to cut you down than own up to their bad behavior.

You are not oversensitive.
posted by onecircleaday at 6:02 AM on October 14, 2017 [24 favorites]


I've definitely messed up multiple friendships by doing things like saying "Hey, things seem "off" lately and if something is going on with our friendship, I would love to talk about it," or by saying things like "I found that comment hurtful."

That is not you messing up the friendship. As I read this, that is you accurately reading the situation and realizing that someone isn't acting like a friend and bringing it up proactively. That question is a litmus test that *other* people have been failing. A good friend should respond to either of those by explaining, reassuring you, or apologizing/asking for more information. What you've described is the symptom and not the root cause.

I suspect Major Matt Mason Dixon is on to something. Proximity and chance play a big role in most friendships, but it's worthwhile to consider your values and priorities and look for friends who share them. I'm a super-earnest, awkward nerd and at this point in my life most of my friends are from a UU group of more super-earnest, awkward nerds who are kind and tolerant of my quirks. Engaging in things that matter to you can help you find friends who are on your wave length.

Of course, it's not impossible that there's something you're doing that some people don't want in a friend, and they're backing off before you ask them what's up. I'd ask both the "doesn't fucking matter" texter and the "shitty friend" remarker what's up and see if anything informative comes up - though it's just as likely that it won't. If they do say something informative, it may not be that you need to change that quality about yourself, it may be that you need to look for friends who appreciate that quality. Or it may be something to work on and practice some self-awareness with. (Once someone who I found condescending told me "I know I can come across as condescending sometimes and I really don't mean to" and that completely changed my attitude towards her and we became good friends).

You deserve friends who love you and aren't shitty. Good luck.
posted by bunderful at 6:11 AM on October 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


This may sound strange but 'new friends' are more like acquaintances...I don't think you can really inquire too much about the relationship or have your feelings hurt too much. That's why friendships seem to separate more often with newish friends- when either party realizes there's something off or that the relationship takes more effort than they are willing to put in then the people just drift apart or just stop talking.

Old friends, that's totally different, you have a lifetime of stored memories and experiences and you can discuss things and get to the bottom of things on a different level, because the intention there is to keep the relationship intact. It's hard to make 'lifetime' friends when you are older, I think there have been previous posts about that.
posted by bquarters at 6:21 AM on October 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


I think Major Matt Mason Dixon is right - that your problem is picking friends. It seems like, for whatever reason, you pick people to be friends with who don't treat you well.

This is something you might want to explore in therapy. How did your parents and family of origin treat you? Were they authoritarian and demanding and made you feel like you never quite measured up? Were adults always right and had the power to mistreat you and you weren't allowed to say "ouch" or have boundaries? In school, were you the weird outcast kid? Were you persistently bullied? Therapy might help you unpack why you wind up with friends and partners who treat you badly.

Good, kind people are not scarce. Neither love nor friendship are pies, with only a certain number of slices to go around. You don't have to settle for what friends you can get because you have no other options. I suggest therapy because it may be, due to family of origin or other issues, that you've "imprinted" on unkind, abusive people - they seem attractive and alluring to you - and you want to unpack that so you can transfer that imprinting onto kind, healthy people. You also want to unpack any scarcity mentality you might have regarding friends, so that you're not clinging desperately to whoever deigns to hang out with you because it's put up with abuse or be alone. That's not true! There are many, many terrific people out there.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:45 AM on October 14, 2017 [5 favorites]


It may be your friends. That's always a very strong possibility. But I guess I look at this a little differently in that the disconnect here might just be in your communication style. If one of my friends did the "IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER" thing, i'd play along and be like - "Oh, your sooooo right - i'm gonna wear my mickey pj pants and Metallica tshirt. I'm gonna be so fucking comfy dammit!". Or if I really was offended, i'd just respond with "Woah - WTF? Chill dude" Then again, thats my communication style, i'm extremely sarcastic and use it as a means to not take a lot of shit from people.

The guys saying those things though - that's just uncalled for. But then again, I'd be all like "WTF is wrong with you?" and then they'd no longer be a part of my life.
posted by cgg at 8:04 AM on October 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


I have had almost that exact "shitty friend" exchange with a friend of mine. The context is that we don't stay in close contact, we lose touch for extended periods and don't always know what's going on with each other, but we pick back up periodically, sometimes just because one of us is bored or needs something, without it being awkward or weird. In context, we both consider it a good thing, where "shitty" means pretty much "low maintenance," and that's something we both appreciate about our specific friendship.

So really, that's a context thing. What did they mean? It doesn't really look to me like it was meant as an insult, but obviously, you took it that way, so maybe it's just a difference in temperament. It doesn't make your friend mean or toxic or any of those things, maybe just incompatible.

And the first thing that came to mind with the "doesn't matter" story is a friend of mine who sometimes gets really fixated on small things and will talk about them almost compulsively for much, much too long. I haven't yelled at her yet, but I could see myself getting there. I don't know anything about your situation, of course, and I don't know whether that person was actually annoyed or if they were kidding, but obviously, again, it hurt you whether it was meant to or not, so that's no good. But could you have been obsessing and kind of misreading the room too?

People can be incompatible without either of them being wrong, and maybe, in either of those situations, neither of you is very good at 'reading' the other.

The stuff about the men you mention at the end, though, that shit is absolutely horrible and none of it is the kind of thing anyone should say to anyone else, ever, unless they both are 100% consciously on board with it being a joke, which obviously wasn't the case. That stuff is heinous and abusive, and I don't think your friends' comments should be lumped in with that.
posted by ernielundquist at 8:13 AM on October 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


I have learned to value kindness a lot more and "coolness" a lot less in my friends because I've had this problem too. It meant, for a while, being ok with being alone a lot. It also meant readjusting my radar for people to befriend, to include more variety of age, background and so on. It meant working on myself and getting rid of toxic assumptions about friendship and self worth. It took a while but was worth it. Though in some ways I am still learning how to be and make friends. Maybe you are at that stage in your life.
posted by emjaybee at 8:13 AM on October 14, 2017 [3 favorites]


I've seen a simple, solemn "Ouch..." land on target in these sort of situations.
posted by Lorc at 9:16 AM on October 14, 2017 [11 favorites]


One thing that might help you clarify intent here is to think about whether these friends talk to each other like this, or it just to you? I understand that intent doesn’t completely matter here-how you feel is really important-but I know that I don’t personalize things if I see the dynamic isn’t directed at me.

I am in my late forties and I have friends where our text interactions frequently end up in places like you’re talking about-we talk trash to each other nonstop. Of course, the difference is we’re all this way-it’s not directed at one of us. Singling someone out is a completely different thing.

Is this a group of friends that has been established for awhile and you recently joined? Groups have cultures, of course, and this might be theirs. I agree with some folks above that this wouldn’t even register on the mean scale to me, unless there was context that led me to think it was intended that way.

That being said, of course you have the right to decide this isn’t for you. I would encourage you to bring up your feelings right away in the future-I think “ouch” is a perfect way to do that. What might have gotten in your way in past relationships is waiting a long time and then over-processing-that can be exhausting for your friends, when a quick statement letting them know how you felt in the moment could have moved you on.
posted by purenitrous at 9:35 AM on October 14, 2017


If someone told me, in a group text, that something I was concerned about didn't matter, I'd cheerily say, "Yikes! Well, it matters to me, but I'll take you off the group text. No problem." and then I'd assume a) this person was having a crappy day unless b) they were ever dismissive of my concerns again. Of course, it shouldn't matter what you wear, but nobody should ever tell someone that something they're concerned about doesn't matter (unless they're kindly helping someone stop obsessing about something in a self-harming way).

I've definitely messed up multiple friendships by doing things like saying "Hey, things seem "off" lately and if something is going on with our friendship, I would love to talk about it," or by saying things like "I found that comment hurtful."

NOPE. You did NOT mess up any friendships by asking what was wrong. If you said that first thing to your dental hygienist whom you see twice a year, that would be weird. Saying it to a friend is thoughtful and earnest, and I think it makes you a great person. If your friends react badly to genuine, respectful concern or standing up for your own boundaries by calling out a hurtful experience, then those friends suck, not you. DO NOT BLAME YOURSELF.

As for the part at the end, I feel horrible just reading that these words were ever said to you. Please, PLEASE do not spend any more time than it takes to pick up your purse to walk away from anyone who says such unkind things to you. You sound like a sensitive, caring person, and you deserve to spend time people of the same nature. No kind person says the kinds of things you've experienced; yes, it can be lonely when you don't have a caring circle of friends, especially ones over the long-term, but even being solitary and being kind to yourself is better than allowing ANYONE, EVER to treat you with disrespect.

I promise you there are sweet, kind, non-jerky people in the world who will be delighted to be your friend, and I hope you open the opportunities where you can interact with them and engage in supportive, fun friendships. There are forgivable unkindnesses -- things said under duress, for example -- people who say things lightly and sarcastically but do not mean harm can be taught to be more gentle -- but the things in your final paragraph are things no human should ever say to another. (Except Trump. Someone should tell Trump that he's not as smart as he thinks. Or smart. At all. Are you Trump? If not, nobody should talk to you like this.)
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 9:41 AM on October 14, 2017 [2 favorites]


Are most people actually just unkind

No.

It may well be the case, though, that your current process for choosing people to date selects for unkindness. This is a fairly common pattern for people raised in a family atmosphere permeated by assorted kinds of violence, so if that's you, it's something to watch out for and mull over.

For what it's worth, anybody who said any of the things from your last paragraph to or about their partner within earshot of me would go straight on my list of Dickheads To Warn Other People About. Especially the labiaplasty thing. There are no such things as ugly labia, and "cosmetic" labiaplasties are just FGM plus marketing.
posted by flabdablet at 9:47 AM on October 14, 2017 [4 favorites]


Even if they are jerks, it's possible you could learn something from them, about if there's anything you are doing that's putting them off. It doesn't mean you have to change it, depending on what it says about you & what it says about them.
posted by Baeria at 10:56 AM on October 14, 2017


For example, if there's a TMI issue, that could be helpful information to have. Or at the other extreme, if they don't have the sense that the communication is sincere.
posted by Baeria at 11:21 AM on October 14, 2017


Yeah, was the "IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER" like, "It doesn't fucking matter -- you're gorgeous!" or "It doesn't fucking matter -- this guy is awful and none of us think you should be dating him and we are not helping you pick an outfit because this is a terrible idea." or "It doesn't fucking matter! This is the 47th time you've asked this in the past 24 hours, all of the outfits are fine, and you need to chill." or "It doesn't fucking matter! I am on a huge deadline at work and no matter how many times I tell you this you keep texting and texting and texting about this fucking date that I do not care about until I finish my fucking project and keep my job!" Assuming they're not just mean horrible people, it's probably something along one of those lines.

If it's one of the first two, it's more of a communication difficulty and you may just need to learn their lingo, or let them know you are flummoxed by that sort of thing. If it's one of the latter two, the issue may be that you're doing a poor job reading the room/being considerate -- maybe you're being too demanding because you get in an anxiety loop, or maybe you're a little thoughtless about what your friends have going on. Either one you can fix. If they're just mean horrible people, well, move on.

In terms of the things men said, yeah, wow, therapy to find out what's going on there and how you can avoid it in the future, those are horrifying things to say to someone, full stop, and if it's happening over and over again, you need a professional to help you figure out why you keep ending up with horrible, horrible men.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:30 AM on October 14, 2017 [13 favorites]


sometimes you have to save your vulnerability for people who you trust to receive it with grace. And saying "you've hurt my feelings" or "I want to talk about our relationship" is pretty vulnerable IMO. However, I do think you can stand up for yourself when your feelings are hurt. I would go for sincerity sans vulnerability.

For example---
They say: We are both shitty friends! You say: you really think so? I don't think we are!
They say: It doesn't fucking matter. You say: oh well, it matters to me.

Think of it this way: your goal is to assert yourself and express what you really *think* rather than what you feel.

Best of luck! You deserve friends who are supportive of the real you.
posted by CMcG at 2:13 PM on October 14, 2017 [8 favorites]


Think of it this way: your goal is to assert yourself and express what you really *think* rather than what you feel.

THIS. I want to put it on bumper sticker. Make this your mantra.
posted by Knowyournuts at 7:34 PM on October 14, 2017 [1 favorite]


I wish I could give you a hug. These people are so unkind - under the guise of 'banter' I bet.

The last remark from the guy really hit me - what an out and out bxsterd. I'm saying that as someone who understands and I'm so upset for you. I absolutely beg you not to let this ever affect you.

I've had so called 'friends' that I've ended up leaving behind because of their 'sarcasm' 'banter' etc - especially when other friends were there.

I'm lucky now that I have friends that I can confide in, cry with, laugh with and love.

There are people out there who will value your sensitivity and kindness. Good luck.
posted by Flowerpower at 10:37 AM on October 15, 2017


I agree that context matters, because your examples seem like things my good friends and I might say to each other. I just respond sincerely: "I don't want to be a shitty friend, but I see what you mean." or "I'm not a shitty friend, I went to your boring presentation to support you!"; "It does matter to me what I wear because I really like this person." or "You're right, I'm freaking out about nothing!". &c. I suppose it's a matter of not taking the initial statement too seriously- people are hard to understand in just one typed sentence. If they continue to say dickish things in the same conversation that's when I might ask, "WTF? Just looking for some advice here." I think expressing bewilderment rather than hurt tends to make people realize they are being arsey without putting them on the defensive. If they continue to make me uncomfortable I just don't interact with them in the same way, or drop them.

The men sound like awful, horrible people. I can't imagine anyone thinking those sorts of comments are okay in any way. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:15 PM on October 15, 2017


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