How normal is this family dynamic?
October 2, 2017 10:31 PM Subscribe
Every morning now for months I've woken up to bedlam. Our two children, (just about to turn 3 and just about to turn 7) annoying each other and engaging in back and forth pinching, kicking, wrestling, screaming/hissing 'shut up', 'idiot' and 'stupid' at each other?
I hate it. It's depressing me. It's the worst way to wake up. I try to tackle it with time outs which seems to work whereas my wife seems to prefer to let them get on with it (the shouting/insulting - not the physical stuff) and says she hopes that by not showing them that these words are powerful they will stop using them.
It's driving me insane. I don't remember my childhood being like this. Is this a stage? Is this normal? How do we break the pattern?
This comes after a truly broken night's sleep where I am in and out of the youngest's bedroom trying to get her to stay asleep in her own bed. She has a trump card of screaming the house down, though, and she knows I don't want her to do that because of the effect it has on our poor neighbours. HELP!
For the record, as a family, we don't want those words/insults in the house but we know a couple of families who are OK with them. The oldest picked up the words as children do, and used them very sparingly when he was really irked. Now the youngest soon picked up on the words and in what contexts to use them and she ISN'T sparing with them. Uses them all the time. Don't want to put your bib on for dinner? "STUPID!! SHUT UP!!!". Don't like the fact there's some garden peas with your meal? "IDIOT, STUPID!!". And so it continues/escalates.
I realise that my wife and I need to establish a policy of what to do, how to tackle this situation - but we seem to fundamentally differ on what route is going to be most effective and ultimately result in a harmonious family dynamic. Whenever that will be.
As a last note, I should say that they are very often perfect little angels(!) who bring us a lot of joy and fun - but I really don't think the balance is correct at the moment. It's like 75% disharmony to 25% harmony. Shouldn't it be the other way around?!?
I hate it. It's depressing me. It's the worst way to wake up. I try to tackle it with time outs which seems to work whereas my wife seems to prefer to let them get on with it (the shouting/insulting - not the physical stuff) and says she hopes that by not showing them that these words are powerful they will stop using them.
It's driving me insane. I don't remember my childhood being like this. Is this a stage? Is this normal? How do we break the pattern?
This comes after a truly broken night's sleep where I am in and out of the youngest's bedroom trying to get her to stay asleep in her own bed. She has a trump card of screaming the house down, though, and she knows I don't want her to do that because of the effect it has on our poor neighbours. HELP!
For the record, as a family, we don't want those words/insults in the house but we know a couple of families who are OK with them. The oldest picked up the words as children do, and used them very sparingly when he was really irked. Now the youngest soon picked up on the words and in what contexts to use them and she ISN'T sparing with them. Uses them all the time. Don't want to put your bib on for dinner? "STUPID!! SHUT UP!!!". Don't like the fact there's some garden peas with your meal? "IDIOT, STUPID!!". And so it continues/escalates.
I realise that my wife and I need to establish a policy of what to do, how to tackle this situation - but we seem to fundamentally differ on what route is going to be most effective and ultimately result in a harmonious family dynamic. Whenever that will be.
As a last note, I should say that they are very often perfect little angels(!) who bring us a lot of joy and fun - but I really don't think the balance is correct at the moment. It's like 75% disharmony to 25% harmony. Shouldn't it be the other way around?!?
Yes, all the above. Our 7 and 2 year olds are in bed between 7 and 7:30 (and no noise after that time), and get up around the same time in the morning. Anything less and they're a pain in the neck. I found that a gradual extension until around 9-9:30pm by age 9 or 10 (assuming they are handling it) worked, and no need to extend that until at least 14-15.
Seconding an absolutely consistent consequence for unacceptable behaviour. For example, loss of choice at breakfast time. I get up, go downstairs, start to prepare breakfast. Well-behaved kids get what they choose, ones who are being a pain get a piece of toast. They are amazingly quick learners.
posted by tillsbury at 11:34 PM on October 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
Seconding an absolutely consistent consequence for unacceptable behaviour. For example, loss of choice at breakfast time. I get up, go downstairs, start to prepare breakfast. Well-behaved kids get what they choose, ones who are being a pain get a piece of toast. They are amazingly quick learners.
posted by tillsbury at 11:34 PM on October 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
Can you separate them when they fight - instead of trying to solve it? i.e. the consequences of fighting is that they don't play / interact for a period of time.
This stops you from being detective trying to find who 'started it' when there really is no solution.
This also can help you, because the consequence is already known to you and you don't have to get stressed out trying to think of a solution
Often, when separated, my kids would realize that it is more boring to play alone than it is to play together and find some way to make peace and sometimes they would just spend time without each other.
posted by jazh at 1:14 AM on October 3, 2017
This stops you from being detective trying to find who 'started it' when there really is no solution.
This also can help you, because the consequence is already known to you and you don't have to get stressed out trying to think of a solution
Often, when separated, my kids would realize that it is more boring to play alone than it is to play together and find some way to make peace and sometimes they would just spend time without each other.
posted by jazh at 1:14 AM on October 3, 2017
Please don't let the kids "get on with it" – there are a lot of power lessons at play here and kids actually don't have the tools to figure it out at this age. Can you split the kids up – older kid goes to a friend's house and younger kid gets a sitter at home – and get a summit date lunch with your partner to discuss this? Number 1 - disrupted sleep. Number 2 - shared discipline values. It's okay that you guys are figuring this out now but you have to be a united front. And you might consider a family therapist to get you guys on a good path. Your younger child is trying to assert themselves but it's developed into a bad pattern. And your responses have also developed into a bad pattern. This happens! You never know what kind of parenting scenario you are going to get and it can be hard to adapt. But your kids aren't bad and age 3 is the perfect age for insane shenanigans ("threenager") but the parents aren't united and they need to be.
posted by amanda at 6:25 AM on October 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by amanda at 6:25 AM on October 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Echoing that it is normal, it's a stage, and that part of the "cure" is to enforce strict bedtimes and rules. 11-12 hours of sleep is reasonable at that age. Eat at least an hour before bedtime.
Also, the youngest must sleep in her bed, because she will sleep better that way*. I usually read a story, or one or two chapters of a longer story, and then shut off the lights, but stay quietly in the room in a separate chair, maybe reading on a tablet (for the light). Each of you put one child to bed, taking turns so they get equal treatments. After 30 minutes of this, I leave the room. For the child, there is no alternative, no sofa, no other bed, regardless of whatever begging or crying/screaming. It will be rough the first day or two, but if you stick to this routine, you will se after a few days that they fall asleep within ten minutes. Don't worry, you are not harming them, you are caring for them, helping them to find rest when they can't do it on their own. Maybe tell the neighbors you will have a few evenings of screaming in order to stop it for good.
How did I find out? Because I divorced and could no longer deal with a whiny child past bedtime at all. I've done it with my own kids and with plenty of others, including two I care for regularly as a respite carer.
Now, if for some reason I can't read (laundry or something), I play a story from a podcast.
It's ok to go to a family event or restaurant and break the rules now and then as soon as the routine is well-established, because the kids will begin to find peace and content in it and like the normal nights.
A good sleep schedule is the prerequisite for stopping other bad habits. I'm a fan of time-outs. IMO, you can't reason with people who are 3 and 6/7, they don't have that capacity yet. The time-out should be very short - 10 minutes max, and if the kids are calm after that, you can talk with them about why it happened. Try to avoid scolding or shouting, if you can (one can't always), reserving what in our family is called "the stern voice" for really serious situations. That makes it much more effective when you need it. I usually say, "I don't care who did what, and I can't ever know, but I cannot abide with this noise or that language. You must take a time-out to calm down and to give me some peace. There have been times where my kids didn't have separate rooms, and had the time-out together in the same room, it worked just fine.
Sometimes, if some great unfairness had happened, such a A took all of B's easter egg and ate it, the offended part would keep on crying after the ten minutes. In that case, I would ask both what really happened and in many cases they would both loyally tell (though the offender would be uncomfortable, obvs.)
I am against authoritarianism at all levels of human interaction, but I do believe parents of small children need to be authoritative and lead the way. We are old and experienced, they are small and their brains are not fully developed. They don't have the tools with which to manage themselves, and we need to help them develop them.
*When we were about your kids' age, our mum had us sleep in the same bedroom and then used the other room as a nursery/playroom where all the toys were. That way we were not alone at night, which some small children can't handle. I think maybe my little brother was a sensitive child that way. Also we were not distracted by all those shiny objects and the bedroom could be cool and the playroom warm. It worked very well, and as stated above my kids have shared a room sometimes, also with good results. I had my own room again when I was 9.
posted by mumimor at 7:11 AM on October 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also, the youngest must sleep in her bed, because she will sleep better that way*. I usually read a story, or one or two chapters of a longer story, and then shut off the lights, but stay quietly in the room in a separate chair, maybe reading on a tablet (for the light). Each of you put one child to bed, taking turns so they get equal treatments. After 30 minutes of this, I leave the room. For the child, there is no alternative, no sofa, no other bed, regardless of whatever begging or crying/screaming. It will be rough the first day or two, but if you stick to this routine, you will se after a few days that they fall asleep within ten minutes. Don't worry, you are not harming them, you are caring for them, helping them to find rest when they can't do it on their own. Maybe tell the neighbors you will have a few evenings of screaming in order to stop it for good.
How did I find out? Because I divorced and could no longer deal with a whiny child past bedtime at all. I've done it with my own kids and with plenty of others, including two I care for regularly as a respite carer.
Now, if for some reason I can't read (laundry or something), I play a story from a podcast.
It's ok to go to a family event or restaurant and break the rules now and then as soon as the routine is well-established, because the kids will begin to find peace and content in it and like the normal nights.
A good sleep schedule is the prerequisite for stopping other bad habits. I'm a fan of time-outs. IMO, you can't reason with people who are 3 and 6/7, they don't have that capacity yet. The time-out should be very short - 10 minutes max, and if the kids are calm after that, you can talk with them about why it happened. Try to avoid scolding or shouting, if you can (one can't always), reserving what in our family is called "the stern voice" for really serious situations. That makes it much more effective when you need it. I usually say, "I don't care who did what, and I can't ever know, but I cannot abide with this noise or that language. You must take a time-out to calm down and to give me some peace. There have been times where my kids didn't have separate rooms, and had the time-out together in the same room, it worked just fine.
Sometimes, if some great unfairness had happened, such a A took all of B's easter egg and ate it, the offended part would keep on crying after the ten minutes. In that case, I would ask both what really happened and in many cases they would both loyally tell (though the offender would be uncomfortable, obvs.)
I am against authoritarianism at all levels of human interaction, but I do believe parents of small children need to be authoritative and lead the way. We are old and experienced, they are small and their brains are not fully developed. They don't have the tools with which to manage themselves, and we need to help them develop them.
*When we were about your kids' age, our mum had us sleep in the same bedroom and then used the other room as a nursery/playroom where all the toys were. That way we were not alone at night, which some small children can't handle. I think maybe my little brother was a sensitive child that way. Also we were not distracted by all those shiny objects and the bedroom could be cool and the playroom warm. It worked very well, and as stated above my kids have shared a room sometimes, also with good results. I had my own room again when I was 9.
posted by mumimor at 7:11 AM on October 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is a normal, but soul-destroying, dynamic. I second amanda that you need a summit to strategize because a united front can't be circumvented by kids.
Here a couple of ideas that the two of you can add to your toolbelts:
With the 3-year-old's yelling: We maintain that we cannot hear yelling or whining or stomping. We insist we don't hear it. Very disruptive stomping-to-get-the-neighbours-mad earns a sympathetic time out (to get our feelings and bodies back under control). We usually do the timeouts with the youngest, just sit quietly and focus on relaxing our bodies. So yelling = removal from scene and/or being told you aren't being heard.
My son's school uses the WITS program for interpersonal problems. You need to guide it, but present the kids with their options for how to resolve the issue:
Walk away
Ignore the other person
Talk it out
Seek the support of an adult
This is a great program, with research that supports its effectiveness. It helps that it was introduced in school and we just re-enforce it.
You've got this!
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 7:17 AM on October 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
Here a couple of ideas that the two of you can add to your toolbelts:
With the 3-year-old's yelling: We maintain that we cannot hear yelling or whining or stomping. We insist we don't hear it. Very disruptive stomping-to-get-the-neighbours-mad earns a sympathetic time out (to get our feelings and bodies back under control). We usually do the timeouts with the youngest, just sit quietly and focus on relaxing our bodies. So yelling = removal from scene and/or being told you aren't being heard.
My son's school uses the WITS program for interpersonal problems. You need to guide it, but present the kids with their options for how to resolve the issue:
Walk away
Ignore the other person
Talk it out
Seek the support of an adult
This is a great program, with research that supports its effectiveness. It helps that it was introduced in school and we just re-enforce it.
You've got this!
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 7:17 AM on October 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure I understand how "they" will work this out on their own or "they" will learn that these extremely excellent button-pushing powerful result-producing words have "no power" when they are at wildly different developmental stages, so that the 3yo literally has no memory but of acting like this and the 7yo has no previous experience with receiving and being provoked into verbal abuse (I hope) and is supposed to fend for themself. They're not just miniature adults, and a toddler isn't a miniature 7yo, and y'all need to help them.
You do probably have a sleep situation bordering on an emergency (brains and bodies don't develop in a vacuum) but you have a nuclear-grade parenting problem. You're two people trying to parent separately instead of doing the harder work of teaming up and making a plan that takes real-world variables into account, and it's time to go learn how to do that (or you will indeed get to parent separately eventually).
The people with the primary power to fix this are the parents - fix the sleep, take steps to redirect the bad dynamic that has developed, teach the kids how to behave differently. The person with the secondary power (but no authority over anyone else) to stop this is the 7yo who will first need to be taught by their parents how to manage the complicated feelings, how to disengage from a situation they cannot control (and, since there's a 3yo involved, there's only so much help the parents can provide on the control front either, but help indeed should be provided), and be introduced to a parental reward system for using the tools and techniques they have been taught to decline engagement and go about their morning instead. You could use this opportunity to make your kid more resilient the next 9000 times they're stuck in a situation to which they are contributing but only have so much control and one of the involved parties is an out-of-control dictator with no empathy who doesn't understand bribes yet and the local authorities only have moderate jurisdiction. (It seems unlikely that capitalism is going to die easy and probably your kids will have to work, so this is inevitable.)
It is true that there are only so many things you can do about the toddler, but that's not nothing and they're going to be 4 and 5 and 6 one day and there's nothing wrong with modeling their future behavior even if it doesn't work much at this point. But the older kid deserves some help here, including not being expected to parent the 3yo for you, and training on how to withstand a toddler.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:32 AM on October 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
You do probably have a sleep situation bordering on an emergency (brains and bodies don't develop in a vacuum) but you have a nuclear-grade parenting problem. You're two people trying to parent separately instead of doing the harder work of teaming up and making a plan that takes real-world variables into account, and it's time to go learn how to do that (or you will indeed get to parent separately eventually).
The people with the primary power to fix this are the parents - fix the sleep, take steps to redirect the bad dynamic that has developed, teach the kids how to behave differently. The person with the secondary power (but no authority over anyone else) to stop this is the 7yo who will first need to be taught by their parents how to manage the complicated feelings, how to disengage from a situation they cannot control (and, since there's a 3yo involved, there's only so much help the parents can provide on the control front either, but help indeed should be provided), and be introduced to a parental reward system for using the tools and techniques they have been taught to decline engagement and go about their morning instead. You could use this opportunity to make your kid more resilient the next 9000 times they're stuck in a situation to which they are contributing but only have so much control and one of the involved parties is an out-of-control dictator with no empathy who doesn't understand bribes yet and the local authorities only have moderate jurisdiction. (It seems unlikely that capitalism is going to die easy and probably your kids will have to work, so this is inevitable.)
It is true that there are only so many things you can do about the toddler, but that's not nothing and they're going to be 4 and 5 and 6 one day and there's nothing wrong with modeling their future behavior even if it doesn't work much at this point. But the older kid deserves some help here, including not being expected to parent the 3yo for you, and training on how to withstand a toddler.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:32 AM on October 3, 2017 [10 favorites]
she hopes that by not showing them that these words are powerful they will stop using them.
I understand what your wife is thinking, but disagree that allowing the kids to keep screaming insults at each other constitutes "not showing them that these words are powerful". When my 3 year old screams at me, I look at her with a slightly bemused look and say something like, "Do you think that screaming at me will get me to do what you want?" She glares at me. I continue, "That never works, does it? How could you ask so that I will do what you want?" At this point she generally sniffles out a "please" and then I do the thing. If she can't come up with a satisfactory answer, I smile and provide her with words. "You could say, 'May I have some milk, please?' Now you try!" Then when she repeats it, I make a really big show of positive reinforcement, by exclaiming "I would LOVE to get you some milk! Thanks for asking so nicely!" (If this seems overblown, it is. But they do eventually make the connection and you don't have to do this forever. It's just like how you cheer them and shoot off fireworks the first time they use the toilet, but you aren't still doing it when they're six.)
Especially if we're in "reinforce-asking-nicely" mode, I try to give them what they want as long as they ask politely. That isn't always possible, and when it isn't, I try to negotiate a mutually acceptable solution.
Example script:
"NO PEAS! IDIOT! STUPID!"
"I don't like it when kids use those words. Try again, please."
"IDIOT STUPID PEAS STUPID STUPID!"
"Nope, that won't make the peas go away. Can you ask nicely?"
"NO PEAS PLEASE."
"[show of sudden understanding] Oh, you don't want the peas? Thanks for asking nicely! The problem is, peas are important for your body. I can't take away all the peas, but I could take some. How many peas should I leave? How about three?"
In general, the more you can stay calm and in-charge and unflappable, the less likely you are to get into escalating conflicts with them. Not that you'll never have tantrums, but you can avert some, and along they way they will learn that asking nicely is effective and yelling like a little tyrant is not. I do teach my kids about kindness for kindness' sake, but when I first start teaching them about asking politely, I coach it in pretty mercenary terms: Asking politely is how you get adults to do your bidding. If you yell at them, they don't. If you say please, you stand a decent chance.
posted by telepanda at 7:46 AM on October 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
I understand what your wife is thinking, but disagree that allowing the kids to keep screaming insults at each other constitutes "not showing them that these words are powerful". When my 3 year old screams at me, I look at her with a slightly bemused look and say something like, "Do you think that screaming at me will get me to do what you want?" She glares at me. I continue, "That never works, does it? How could you ask so that I will do what you want?" At this point she generally sniffles out a "please" and then I do the thing. If she can't come up with a satisfactory answer, I smile and provide her with words. "You could say, 'May I have some milk, please?' Now you try!" Then when she repeats it, I make a really big show of positive reinforcement, by exclaiming "I would LOVE to get you some milk! Thanks for asking so nicely!" (If this seems overblown, it is. But they do eventually make the connection and you don't have to do this forever. It's just like how you cheer them and shoot off fireworks the first time they use the toilet, but you aren't still doing it when they're six.)
Especially if we're in "reinforce-asking-nicely" mode, I try to give them what they want as long as they ask politely. That isn't always possible, and when it isn't, I try to negotiate a mutually acceptable solution.
Example script:
"NO PEAS! IDIOT! STUPID!"
"I don't like it when kids use those words. Try again, please."
"IDIOT STUPID PEAS STUPID STUPID!"
"Nope, that won't make the peas go away. Can you ask nicely?"
"NO PEAS PLEASE."
"[show of sudden understanding] Oh, you don't want the peas? Thanks for asking nicely! The problem is, peas are important for your body. I can't take away all the peas, but I could take some. How many peas should I leave? How about three?"
In general, the more you can stay calm and in-charge and unflappable, the less likely you are to get into escalating conflicts with them. Not that you'll never have tantrums, but you can avert some, and along they way they will learn that asking nicely is effective and yelling like a little tyrant is not. I do teach my kids about kindness for kindness' sake, but when I first start teaching them about asking politely, I coach it in pretty mercenary terms: Asking politely is how you get adults to do your bidding. If you yell at them, they don't. If you say please, you stand a decent chance.
posted by telepanda at 7:46 AM on October 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Some siblings fight like mad and it's really hard to deal with. I fear that waiting till they grow out of it may be the most effective solution. Some ideas though:
- A lot of people (more than admit it) let their kids sleep with them - which could help with the crappy sleep from getting up all night trying to settle the little one
- Designated distraction in the AM that they can use for a clearly regimented amount of time (for example: each kid has their own old/cheap/used ipad they can use until 8:00 AM when all screens turn off for getting ready time or something). Yelling/mean words = ipad immediately goes away for the day.
- For discipline stuff in general, try to avoid the endless warnings. Try to explain the rules simply and clearly once: "Your mom and I are not OK with yelling and using mean words at each other. If we hear that tomorrow morning, we will do x". Then immediately do "x" the first time it happens the next morning. Try not to say, "I hear you yelling in there! We're going to put you on a time out if it continues!" They already had the warning - then it's on you guys to enact the consequence immediately and with little emotion.
- Consider martial arts classes? There's a lot of emphasis on self control, but also an opportunity to get some aggression out.
There are no magic solutions to this stuff, no matter what the 'experts' say. It's really hard. Good luck.
posted by latkes at 8:24 AM on October 3, 2017
- A lot of people (more than admit it) let their kids sleep with them - which could help with the crappy sleep from getting up all night trying to settle the little one
- Designated distraction in the AM that they can use for a clearly regimented amount of time (for example: each kid has their own old/cheap/used ipad they can use until 8:00 AM when all screens turn off for getting ready time or something). Yelling/mean words = ipad immediately goes away for the day.
- For discipline stuff in general, try to avoid the endless warnings. Try to explain the rules simply and clearly once: "Your mom and I are not OK with yelling and using mean words at each other. If we hear that tomorrow morning, we will do x". Then immediately do "x" the first time it happens the next morning. Try not to say, "I hear you yelling in there! We're going to put you on a time out if it continues!" They already had the warning - then it's on you guys to enact the consequence immediately and with little emotion.
- Consider martial arts classes? There's a lot of emphasis on self control, but also an opportunity to get some aggression out.
There are no magic solutions to this stuff, no matter what the 'experts' say. It's really hard. Good luck.
posted by latkes at 8:24 AM on October 3, 2017
Barbara Coloroso's _Kids Are Worth it_
Quoting from her website: "...is an internationally recognized speaker and author in the areas of parenting, teaching, school discipline, non-violent conflict resolution and reconciliatory justice. She is an educational consultant for school districts, the medical and business community, the criminal justice system and other educational associations around the world. Barbara has served as a classroom teacher, a laboratory school instructor, and a university instructor. She is the author of five international bestsellers."
posted by at at 8:44 AM on October 3, 2017
Quoting from her website: "...is an internationally recognized speaker and author in the areas of parenting, teaching, school discipline, non-violent conflict resolution and reconciliatory justice. She is an educational consultant for school districts, the medical and business community, the criminal justice system and other educational associations around the world. Barbara has served as a classroom teacher, a laboratory school instructor, and a university instructor. She is the author of five international bestsellers."
posted by at at 8:44 AM on October 3, 2017
Have you read Siblings Without Rivalry (subtitled "How to Help Your Children Live Together So You Can Live Too")? It's a classic for a reason!
posted by Jaclyn at 10:44 AM on October 3, 2017
posted by Jaclyn at 10:44 AM on October 3, 2017
telepanda: In general, the more you can stay calm and in-charge and unflappable, the less likely you are to get into escalating conflicts with them.
This, a thousand times.
Howdy, I also have kids about your ages, but two little boys who can be best friends to being bitter rivals at the flip of a switch, and sometimes flip back just as quickly. I completely agree that anger from a parent or other authority figure is more likely to increase their volume and emotions, especially at these ages. It can be hard in the morning, when you're groggy and the first thing you hear is a battle in another room, which I know well. My mother said my brother and I were perfect little angels, which my wife highly doubts. She grew up with an older sister and two younger sisters, so they had their fair share of battles. And lack of sleep really increases the potential for a battle.
Our older one is often the instigator, but the split is probably 60/40 for who started it, and it's usually a territorial toy or book fight ("he has my [thing]!"). Here's our usual series of questions:
- What happened?
- Why did you do that?
- Can you share? Are you willing to trade? What if you worked together to [solve some imaginary problem/ build something together]?
We talk about language, and we talk about mean words you shouldn't say ever, especially when my wife or I shout them almost involuntarily from time to time, to show that we make bad choices but also know better and try to do better. The older one has gotten more creative with his language, and has found the particular barbs that are most likely to quickly sting his little brother but aren't bad per se ("piggy" is a current favorite), so we talk about that, too, how he's being a jerk for saying mean things to his brother. This might escalate the rhetoric, but it's also slightly cathartic for us as parents. You have to strike a balance.
But if there was physical violence, which comes up fairly often from both parties, that leads to harsh scolding if it's minor, to a full time out if it's major.
We have time outs for both boys, which can be on "the time-out bench" (a bench by our front door, near the living room, but away from toys), in their own rooms, or parent time-out (best for little ones who won't stay put, where you or your partner holds the little person in your lap in a hug, holding their hands so they can't get away, and constantly asking them in a soft, quiet voice if they know what they did and if they're ready to apologize). We don't require time-outs to be very long, often a minute or two, but the older one seems to be six going on sixteen, as he's prone to pout for a while, which we generally ignore to avoid feeding that emotion.
Also, we're dealing with similar bed-time issues, with unfortunate limitations on how late the boys can sleep because of the work schedules for me and my wife. As of late, the younger one wants someone to come back to bed with him, and more often than not, that's me. On some level, I love to be wanted like that, but I recognize that this isn't good to be dependent on anyone or any thing to get back to sleep. At the same time, his brother had a similar bout with middle of the night getting up and wanting company (and actually still does, often climbing into our bed), and he is now to the point where he'll tuck himself in and lay down without constant company, so there's a light at the end of this particular tunnel.
Talk with your wife so that you can agree on thresholds and repercussions, and help each-other be consistent with your kids. It can be hard, especially after a long day, when bribery seems like the shortest path to getting a quiet house again, but I always check with my wife before going that route, be it a sweet treat, a short episode of TV or some electronic device time. Don't undermine each-other's authority, or they'll learn to play you off each-other, if they haven't already.
tl;dr: this is fairly normal, and it sucks when it starts really early. A good night of sleep is critical, so do what you can to ensure that happens. Try to remain calm and engage as a quiet ruler, not an angry despot, and coordinate with your wife to ensure you're ruling as a couple, not as disagreeing factions.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:45 AM on October 3, 2017
This, a thousand times.
Howdy, I also have kids about your ages, but two little boys who can be best friends to being bitter rivals at the flip of a switch, and sometimes flip back just as quickly. I completely agree that anger from a parent or other authority figure is more likely to increase their volume and emotions, especially at these ages. It can be hard in the morning, when you're groggy and the first thing you hear is a battle in another room, which I know well. My mother said my brother and I were perfect little angels, which my wife highly doubts. She grew up with an older sister and two younger sisters, so they had their fair share of battles. And lack of sleep really increases the potential for a battle.
Our older one is often the instigator, but the split is probably 60/40 for who started it, and it's usually a territorial toy or book fight ("he has my [thing]!"). Here's our usual series of questions:
- What happened?
- Why did you do that?
- Can you share? Are you willing to trade? What if you worked together to [solve some imaginary problem/ build something together]?
We talk about language, and we talk about mean words you shouldn't say ever, especially when my wife or I shout them almost involuntarily from time to time, to show that we make bad choices but also know better and try to do better. The older one has gotten more creative with his language, and has found the particular barbs that are most likely to quickly sting his little brother but aren't bad per se ("piggy" is a current favorite), so we talk about that, too, how he's being a jerk for saying mean things to his brother. This might escalate the rhetoric, but it's also slightly cathartic for us as parents. You have to strike a balance.
But if there was physical violence, which comes up fairly often from both parties, that leads to harsh scolding if it's minor, to a full time out if it's major.
We have time outs for both boys, which can be on "the time-out bench" (a bench by our front door, near the living room, but away from toys), in their own rooms, or parent time-out (best for little ones who won't stay put, where you or your partner holds the little person in your lap in a hug, holding their hands so they can't get away, and constantly asking them in a soft, quiet voice if they know what they did and if they're ready to apologize). We don't require time-outs to be very long, often a minute or two, but the older one seems to be six going on sixteen, as he's prone to pout for a while, which we generally ignore to avoid feeding that emotion.
Also, we're dealing with similar bed-time issues, with unfortunate limitations on how late the boys can sleep because of the work schedules for me and my wife. As of late, the younger one wants someone to come back to bed with him, and more often than not, that's me. On some level, I love to be wanted like that, but I recognize that this isn't good to be dependent on anyone or any thing to get back to sleep. At the same time, his brother had a similar bout with middle of the night getting up and wanting company (and actually still does, often climbing into our bed), and he is now to the point where he'll tuck himself in and lay down without constant company, so there's a light at the end of this particular tunnel.
Talk with your wife so that you can agree on thresholds and repercussions, and help each-other be consistent with your kids. It can be hard, especially after a long day, when bribery seems like the shortest path to getting a quiet house again, but I always check with my wife before going that route, be it a sweet treat, a short episode of TV or some electronic device time. Don't undermine each-other's authority, or they'll learn to play you off each-other, if they haven't already.
tl;dr: this is fairly normal, and it sucks when it starts really early. A good night of sleep is critical, so do what you can to ensure that happens. Try to remain calm and engage as a quiet ruler, not an angry despot, and coordinate with your wife to ensure you're ruling as a couple, not as disagreeing factions.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:45 AM on October 3, 2017
I have a 7 year old and a 3.5 year old, and they pretty much constantly wrestle and fight with each other, call each other poop head, fart breath, fight with swords. Sometimes it escalates and someone ends up crying, but mostly they're just playing. It annoys the crap out of me, but I remember being 7 and I did the same thing with my younger brother. They usually get bad right before bed, or first thing in the morning, so it might be a crabby/tired component that's making them go over the line. But today when the older one hurt himself, the younger one brought him all his stuffed animals and "took care" of him, which warmed my heart for a minute (until the older one said "leave me alone, stupid!!!") I remind them that we all love each other and we're not stupid. But they're a-hole kids sometimes. And I think it's unreasonable to think they're never going to wrestle or fight or get on each other's nerves.
One thing I can speak to, since our kids are similar ages apart. I feel like it has been getting better since my 3.5 year old is actually almost 4, he can be reasoned with now, and he's less emotionally volatile. So I think you'll find the coming months might increase the harmony, just based on your youngest. The older one kind of just reacts to the younger, but doesn't have the patience a grown up would have, so their fights escalate. But as my younger one is maturing and in pre-school, he's gotten easier to handle, and they have been playing better together.
Anyway, good luck! Kids are horrible little loves.
posted by katypickle at 7:26 PM on October 3, 2017
One thing I can speak to, since our kids are similar ages apart. I feel like it has been getting better since my 3.5 year old is actually almost 4, he can be reasoned with now, and he's less emotionally volatile. So I think you'll find the coming months might increase the harmony, just based on your youngest. The older one kind of just reacts to the younger, but doesn't have the patience a grown up would have, so their fights escalate. But as my younger one is maturing and in pre-school, he's gotten easier to handle, and they have been playing better together.
Anyway, good luck! Kids are horrible little loves.
posted by katypickle at 7:26 PM on October 3, 2017
Oh, lord, I feel for you. Mine are 31 (in December) and 28 (this weekend -- yeah!)
I'd be taking Older Sibling aside and saying, "Mom needs help here, and you get to be a better example." Bribes! Praising! Mom and me time!
This behavior is not allowed at school (a whole 'nother issue!) and is not allowed at home. Older Sibling has outgrown this "kid stuff" and needs to have some quality time with his parents brainstorming ideas -- make him part of the solution.
Younger Sibling is taking cues on behavior. If Older Sibling is getting rewarded and he isn't... if he no longer gets the reinforcing attention... then perhaps this will decrease. What are babysitters / caregivers saying about this?
I can just imagine this spilling over into long car trips -- nope, nope, nope.
1) Parents are in charge. That's fair, because parents make the rules.
2) Separate them. No excuses. If somebody misses breakfast, that's his choice.
(Pro tip 1: He misses his favorite breakfast because of his bad behavior. Parents -- may -- be serving it again tomorrow. Or not. But whether he is allowed to enjoy it is up to him.)
(Pro tip 2: Don't get caught up in being "fair." Someone is going to take the heat for the misbehavior, so someone is going to be the example.)
3) If they won't cut it out, parents will intervene. The children will not like it. Again, their choices.
(Pro tip 3: Mom is taking the better behaved child to the zoo / movies / for ice cream. The other child is staying at home with Dad... who doesn't get to have fun. No, the child isn't playing in his room. He stays with Dad, who is not happy. When behavior improves, rewards -- may -- follow.)
(Pro tip 4: Ultimately, bribes for good behavior are discouraged. But a brief period of separating the siblings for "fun" can reinforce that family time is better spent together.)
4) Don't make a rule you will not immediately, firmly, consistently, and as a team, enforce.
5) Choose your battles. Don't go nuclear for minor things, and don't let bad behavior slide until you lose your temper. This is about setting limits and enforcing them.
6) Different child, different rules. Age is not necessarily the prime determiner of who gets more leeway in behavior.
(I was silently grateful that our older child did not get her driver's license until after high school, while the younger child aced her driving test at 15 1/2.)
7) This, too, will pass.
8) When they are older, your children will casually mention some hair-raising stunts that they pulled when you were not looking. And some that you knew about, but pretended not to see. Refer to "choosing your battles."
9) "When you can tell us in a logical fashion why you want to do this, then you can help make the decision. Think it through with us. Until then, parents make the rules."
10) "What did you do wrong? What should you have done? What will you do differently next time?"
11) "You are allowed to make mistakes -- that's how you learn. But you are not allowed to keep repeating those mistakes -- that means you aren't paying attention. And you do not need to make the mistakes that others have make before you -- again, not paying attention."
12) Spend at least ten times more with positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement. Catch them at being good.
13) The Magic Words:
One word: "Please."
Two words: "Thank you."
Three words: "I love you."
posted by TrishaU at 10:30 PM on October 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'd be taking Older Sibling aside and saying, "Mom needs help here, and you get to be a better example." Bribes! Praising! Mom and me time!
This behavior is not allowed at school (a whole 'nother issue!) and is not allowed at home. Older Sibling has outgrown this "kid stuff" and needs to have some quality time with his parents brainstorming ideas -- make him part of the solution.
Younger Sibling is taking cues on behavior. If Older Sibling is getting rewarded and he isn't... if he no longer gets the reinforcing attention... then perhaps this will decrease. What are babysitters / caregivers saying about this?
I can just imagine this spilling over into long car trips -- nope, nope, nope.
1) Parents are in charge. That's fair, because parents make the rules.
2) Separate them. No excuses. If somebody misses breakfast, that's his choice.
(Pro tip 1: He misses his favorite breakfast because of his bad behavior. Parents -- may -- be serving it again tomorrow. Or not. But whether he is allowed to enjoy it is up to him.)
(Pro tip 2: Don't get caught up in being "fair." Someone is going to take the heat for the misbehavior, so someone is going to be the example.)
3) If they won't cut it out, parents will intervene. The children will not like it. Again, their choices.
(Pro tip 3: Mom is taking the better behaved child to the zoo / movies / for ice cream. The other child is staying at home with Dad... who doesn't get to have fun. No, the child isn't playing in his room. He stays with Dad, who is not happy. When behavior improves, rewards -- may -- follow.)
(Pro tip 4: Ultimately, bribes for good behavior are discouraged. But a brief period of separating the siblings for "fun" can reinforce that family time is better spent together.)
4) Don't make a rule you will not immediately, firmly, consistently, and as a team, enforce.
5) Choose your battles. Don't go nuclear for minor things, and don't let bad behavior slide until you lose your temper. This is about setting limits and enforcing them.
6) Different child, different rules. Age is not necessarily the prime determiner of who gets more leeway in behavior.
(I was silently grateful that our older child did not get her driver's license until after high school, while the younger child aced her driving test at 15 1/2.)
7) This, too, will pass.
8) When they are older, your children will casually mention some hair-raising stunts that they pulled when you were not looking. And some that you knew about, but pretended not to see. Refer to "choosing your battles."
9) "When you can tell us in a logical fashion why you want to do this, then you can help make the decision. Think it through with us. Until then, parents make the rules."
10) "What did you do wrong? What should you have done? What will you do differently next time?"
11) "You are allowed to make mistakes -- that's how you learn. But you are not allowed to keep repeating those mistakes -- that means you aren't paying attention. And you do not need to make the mistakes that others have make before you -- again, not paying attention."
12) Spend at least ten times more with positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement. Catch them at being good.
13) The Magic Words:
One word: "Please."
Two words: "Thank you."
Three words: "I love you."
posted by TrishaU at 10:30 PM on October 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
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I am one of three boys and I have 3 children myself. My brothers and I went through periods of fighting with each other. My children did too. We found the best way to deal with it was to have a set of guidelines, a set way to treat each other and everyone else, and enforce it consistently without exception. Primarily, if you have an issue with a sibling, you may talk to them in a calm and reasoned way to discuss your issue. Screaming and whining were non-starters that had negative consequences. It took a few months of consistently enforcing this in order for it to take hold.
As for when a child holds you hostage to terrorist methods such as screaming in a public place, we taught our early on that there will be consequences to their actions. One of them is that other than a true emergency, screaming will NOT get their way. We were willing to listen and consider, while maintaining final say, any child willing to talk nicely and give us valid reasons why what they wanted should be granted.
To answer your question directly, I do not think your family's dynamic is abnormal.
posted by AugustWest at 10:44 PM on October 2, 2017 [9 favorites]