Support or Slander?
August 1, 2017 6:53 AM Subscribe
When is it appropriate to say, "How [your partner] behaved is outrageous/terrible/wrongheaded/unbelievable!"
I like to be a supportive friend, and I want to throw my support behind women who are being stepped on, betrayed or unsupported in their relationships without coming across as a vengeful harpy.
For example: say a friend and colleague comes to work with puffy eyes and has been crying all weekend because her partner, who is generally absent, has decided to leave. He has made a point to put the blame on her and her "issues" and has refused to go to couples counselling.
My instinct is to blow my stack and tell her he's being a complete jerk and enunciate the reasons why. But is this right or fair? I mean, I'd want to HEAR that if I was in her situation, but I'm not her. My intent is to validate her feelings and hopefully assuage any thought that she's caused the dissolution of her marriage singlehandedly. I don't want to overstep appropriate boundaries.
And this isn't uncommon either: I'm finding myself (more and more lately...perhaps because i'm getting older) being sought out as a support (I would never offer my opinion of someone's relationship unsolicited, ever), but I feel like I'm constantly telling women that their partners are not making the grade and that their feelings are totally valid and they are worth more than they understand. It's starting to make me feel like *I* have a problem...
Am I crossing a boundary? Am I doing more harm than good? Help me sort this out so I can be a better friend and support to my girlfriends.
I like to be a supportive friend, and I want to throw my support behind women who are being stepped on, betrayed or unsupported in their relationships without coming across as a vengeful harpy.
For example: say a friend and colleague comes to work with puffy eyes and has been crying all weekend because her partner, who is generally absent, has decided to leave. He has made a point to put the blame on her and her "issues" and has refused to go to couples counselling.
My instinct is to blow my stack and tell her he's being a complete jerk and enunciate the reasons why. But is this right or fair? I mean, I'd want to HEAR that if I was in her situation, but I'm not her. My intent is to validate her feelings and hopefully assuage any thought that she's caused the dissolution of her marriage singlehandedly. I don't want to overstep appropriate boundaries.
And this isn't uncommon either: I'm finding myself (more and more lately...perhaps because i'm getting older) being sought out as a support (I would never offer my opinion of someone's relationship unsolicited, ever), but I feel like I'm constantly telling women that their partners are not making the grade and that their feelings are totally valid and they are worth more than they understand. It's starting to make me feel like *I* have a problem...
Am I crossing a boundary? Am I doing more harm than good? Help me sort this out so I can be a better friend and support to my girlfriends.
Best answer: "I have THOUGHTS about his behavior. You tell me when you want them, and I'll be happy to hold forth. In the meantime, I want to make sure you know that your feelings are totally valid, and that you're worth more than you may realize right now."
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:10 AM on August 1, 2017 [38 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:10 AM on August 1, 2017 [38 favorites]
Best answer: When I got out of a long term relationship with someone my friends were also friends with, I appreciated both having friends who were even-handed and non-committal "Wow that sounds really tough. I am here if you want to talk" and also who were more on my side like "Yeah I never did like him anyhow, you are better off without him!" Keep in mind that some people get back with their exes and so it's important if you're trying to be a supportive friend that you may have to walk some stuff back or be put in a situation of possibly being on the outs with the reunited couple.
To your specific wording: it is not appropriate, ever, to "blow your stack" to someone who is in a bad relationship. It's fine to say "That makes me angry" but it's inappropriate to respond angrily especially to someone who may have been on the receiving end of that kind of behavior from their (former) loved on. Try to be supportive by using your words and not angry emotions to convey that you care and even then, this is presuming you have an existing friendship with the person. This is a bad way to start a friendship to someone you don't know that well.
posted by jessamyn at 7:13 AM on August 1, 2017 [21 favorites]
To your specific wording: it is not appropriate, ever, to "blow your stack" to someone who is in a bad relationship. It's fine to say "That makes me angry" but it's inappropriate to respond angrily especially to someone who may have been on the receiving end of that kind of behavior from their (former) loved on. Try to be supportive by using your words and not angry emotions to convey that you care and even then, this is presuming you have an existing friendship with the person. This is a bad way to start a friendship to someone you don't know that well.
posted by jessamyn at 7:13 AM on August 1, 2017 [21 favorites]
The best approach might be to let them know you are there if they want to talk, and if they do, to listen.
I don't think it's helpful to offer your opinion about how awful their partners are, or how awful men can be, etc. Even if your opinion validates theirs, I think people who are upset generally just want to be heard and supported. If you offer your own emotional reaction it could put them in the position of having to validate and support you.
posted by Vispa Teresa at 7:25 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's helpful to offer your opinion about how awful their partners are, or how awful men can be, etc. Even if your opinion validates theirs, I think people who are upset generally just want to be heard and supported. If you offer your own emotional reaction it could put them in the position of having to validate and support you.
posted by Vispa Teresa at 7:25 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, keep calm, but I don't think it's ever wrong to tell someone who is implicitly asking for your input and support that you think they've been mistreated if that's your honest assessment.
You can spend more time on carefully making your assessments and not jump to conclusions, recall you're only hearing one side of things, etc., but the sad truth is a lot of men treat their lady partners badly, and part of how they get away with it is women thinking it is normal or acceptable.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:26 AM on August 1, 2017
You can spend more time on carefully making your assessments and not jump to conclusions, recall you're only hearing one side of things, etc., but the sad truth is a lot of men treat their lady partners badly, and part of how they get away with it is women thinking it is normal or acceptable.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:26 AM on August 1, 2017
Best answer: Criticize when the partner does something illegal or immoral. breaking up with somebody doesn't count as either. Also criticize when asked to (which people do do -- Can you believe what an ASSHOLE I married? then, you are free to agree with them.
because just very simply, if she's hurt rather than mad, she's hurt because she loved him and he rejected her. Telling her why he is a jerk is telling her her emotions are a waste because she has shitty taste in men. look how stupid you are for caring that he doesn't love you when his love is worthless!
it is natural to protest that we ("we" in general -- I hate plenty of people's boyfriends) don't mean it that way but I think we sort of do sometimes, or outrage on other women's behalf wouldn't tip so easily into exasperation that they won't stand up for themselves. & this feeling must be suppressed if not destroyed. so I say save the criticism for when they're mad and want to get madder, but give only sympathy when they're crying. Unless it's because he abused them, as per the above.
(Or if they say "Tell me honestly what you think of my terrible boyfriend, whom I love," feel free to say whatever you want. they asked.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:31 AM on August 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
because just very simply, if she's hurt rather than mad, she's hurt because she loved him and he rejected her. Telling her why he is a jerk is telling her her emotions are a waste because she has shitty taste in men. look how stupid you are for caring that he doesn't love you when his love is worthless!
it is natural to protest that we ("we" in general -- I hate plenty of people's boyfriends) don't mean it that way but I think we sort of do sometimes, or outrage on other women's behalf wouldn't tip so easily into exasperation that they won't stand up for themselves. & this feeling must be suppressed if not destroyed. so I say save the criticism for when they're mad and want to get madder, but give only sympathy when they're crying. Unless it's because he abused them, as per the above.
(Or if they say "Tell me honestly what you think of my terrible boyfriend, whom I love," feel free to say whatever you want. they asked.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:31 AM on August 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
Here's the thing: this territory is a tightrope to walk.
Things you have to keep in mind:
(a) You don't love and care about this dude, but she does. She loves him. She loves him even if he's horrible. She will see everything through the prism of "But I loooooooove him."
(b) If anyone says, "But I loooooooove him," I recommend throwing up your hands and dropping it, because as long as she's in that mode, you will get nowhere. In my unfortunate experience, someone who says this seems to be saying that she's going to put up with whatever he dishes out because of that love. Unless her feelings change on that, until then you're out of luck.
(c) As long as she's choosing to stay with this guy, it is at least 50/50 odds that she may have a problem with your dissing the guy at some point. Or possibly TELL him you dissed him.
(d) If the guy is abusive, and you want to keep the friendship, I have found that you have to come off as inoffensive and not his enemy, or else he'll harass her to drop you.
In my experience, it's reasonable to point out that his behavior is making her unhappy, but you really shouldn't just be going, "OMG HE'S A TOTAL ASSHOLE, LEAVE NOW, HERE'S MY COUCH" until she is in the frame of mind to actually want to leave. What you said here ("I feel like I'm constantly telling women that their partners are not making the grade and that their feelings are totally valid and they are worth more than they understand.") is the right way to go.
In this specific situation you bring up, dude has (at least temporarily, we'll see if he sticks with it) chosen to leave her and she doesn't want him to leave. You are still dealing with "But I looooooove him," except it wasn't her choice to have him go and she's in pain about it. I think it's appropriate to point out that she hasn't been happy with him in a while, she comes in crying every week, whatever evidence you see--but as long as she's in "But I loooooove him" mode, don't start yelling that he's a jerk. You can't do that until she's also in the mood to think that. Right now, things are in limbo. She's not convinced he's a jerk, she's in pain, and jerkwads like this are 50/50 on actually leaving so who knows if he'll stick with it. He's not out the door yet. You can't go whole hog on your "he's a jerk" feelings to her face until she's there herself. As long as she still loves him and there's a chance she might be back in the same situation again, proceed with caution.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:32 AM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Things you have to keep in mind:
(a) You don't love and care about this dude, but she does. She loves him. She loves him even if he's horrible. She will see everything through the prism of "But I loooooooove him."
(b) If anyone says, "But I loooooooove him," I recommend throwing up your hands and dropping it, because as long as she's in that mode, you will get nowhere. In my unfortunate experience, someone who says this seems to be saying that she's going to put up with whatever he dishes out because of that love. Unless her feelings change on that, until then you're out of luck.
(c) As long as she's choosing to stay with this guy, it is at least 50/50 odds that she may have a problem with your dissing the guy at some point. Or possibly TELL him you dissed him.
(d) If the guy is abusive, and you want to keep the friendship, I have found that you have to come off as inoffensive and not his enemy, or else he'll harass her to drop you.
In my experience, it's reasonable to point out that his behavior is making her unhappy, but you really shouldn't just be going, "OMG HE'S A TOTAL ASSHOLE, LEAVE NOW, HERE'S MY COUCH" until she is in the frame of mind to actually want to leave. What you said here ("I feel like I'm constantly telling women that their partners are not making the grade and that their feelings are totally valid and they are worth more than they understand.") is the right way to go.
In this specific situation you bring up, dude has (at least temporarily, we'll see if he sticks with it) chosen to leave her and she doesn't want him to leave. You are still dealing with "But I looooooove him," except it wasn't her choice to have him go and she's in pain about it. I think it's appropriate to point out that she hasn't been happy with him in a while, she comes in crying every week, whatever evidence you see--but as long as she's in "But I loooooove him" mode, don't start yelling that he's a jerk. You can't do that until she's also in the mood to think that. Right now, things are in limbo. She's not convinced he's a jerk, she's in pain, and jerkwads like this are 50/50 on actually leaving so who knows if he'll stick with it. He's not out the door yet. You can't go whole hog on your "he's a jerk" feelings to her face until she's there herself. As long as she still loves him and there's a chance she might be back in the same situation again, proceed with caution.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:32 AM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Suppose a woman friend breaks up with a crappy boyfriend and you say, "that guy was a jerk, you deserve better." Then they get back together and she remembers that you said he was a jerk. Even though you were being supportive, this friend could conclude that you wouldn't support them getting back together so now there's a wedge between you two. Now let's take it a step further and imagine that crappy boyfriend is an abusive crappy boyfriend. Since you called him a jerk before, your friend may not think that you're someone she can confide in when they get back together and he starts acting like a jerk again.
That's a lot of hypotheticals but those things happen so I think it's wise to stick to statements like "I'm so sorry, that sounds really hard, I'm here for you if you want to talk." Remember to comfort in, dump out. If you must comment on the partner, focus on his actions, not him as a person. "That was not a nice thing to do", not "what an dirtbag."
Most importantly, listen. Even if the person you're comforting doesn't want to talk about her relationship issue, see if she wants to talk about something else. If you feel like you're getting things off your chest, odds are that you're not being a great friend. If you want to be a good friend, listen.
posted by kat518 at 7:39 AM on August 1, 2017 [16 favorites]
That's a lot of hypotheticals but those things happen so I think it's wise to stick to statements like "I'm so sorry, that sounds really hard, I'm here for you if you want to talk." Remember to comfort in, dump out. If you must comment on the partner, focus on his actions, not him as a person. "That was not a nice thing to do", not "what an dirtbag."
Most importantly, listen. Even if the person you're comforting doesn't want to talk about her relationship issue, see if she wants to talk about something else. If you feel like you're getting things off your chest, odds are that you're not being a great friend. If you want to be a good friend, listen.
posted by kat518 at 7:39 AM on August 1, 2017 [16 favorites]
I tend in these situations to focus on my friend and frame the support like this:
- I've known you for X years and obviously I love you for a reason, as do your other friends, family, and former partners (I leave this out of the relationship history is bad). I respectfully disagree with your partner's assessment that you do Y and Z. Keep in mind you also do A and B, things that any person would be incredibly lucky to have in a partner. I think if he/she can't see the whole picture of how much of a catch you are then I feel sorry for them.
This way you avoid slandering the person directly but make it clear that you are behind your friend and think the partner is wrong. The basic principle is to focus not on the flaws of the partner, but instead the regret you feel for their incongruity with your friend. Some relationships are fluid and if you go in on the partner, the moment they get back together you aren't able to edit those things out and it gets weird. This gets you around that.
posted by notorious medium at 7:39 AM on August 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
- I've known you for X years and obviously I love you for a reason, as do your other friends, family, and former partners (I leave this out of the relationship history is bad). I respectfully disagree with your partner's assessment that you do Y and Z. Keep in mind you also do A and B, things that any person would be incredibly lucky to have in a partner. I think if he/she can't see the whole picture of how much of a catch you are then I feel sorry for them.
This way you avoid slandering the person directly but make it clear that you are behind your friend and think the partner is wrong. The basic principle is to focus not on the flaws of the partner, but instead the regret you feel for their incongruity with your friend. Some relationships are fluid and if you go in on the partner, the moment they get back together you aren't able to edit those things out and it gets weird. This gets you around that.
posted by notorious medium at 7:39 AM on August 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
The approach I have taken is generally to say something along the lines of "I will 100% shut up about this if you want me to, but I think this guy is really treating you wrong, etc. etc." Key is, you really have to shut up if your friend tells you to (even if it is hard).
posted by rainbowbrite at 7:53 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by rainbowbrite at 7:53 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I was just listening to a conversation about an NLP technique where you tell a story about a 3rd party in a similar situation, but really you are talking to the person directly about themselves. So something like...
"When I was in high school, something similar to my mom's best friend. Her husband seemed nice, but behind closed doors he was doing X, Y, and Z. I remember how when they first split up my mom's friend felt like she was to blame for all of the problems in the relationship, she put so much blame on herself and went into a deep depression. It turned out much later the husband had a known history of a abuse/was indicted for a crime/was having an affair/etc., and this was the real reason he was so abusive and controlling. My mom's friend gained a lot of clarity and a new lease on life after the truth came out. She really felt blessed to be out of that marriage."
This is a technique you can use!! Then you are commenting about "Jane" and her awful experience many years ago, not gossiping about your friend and their partner. You still get to impart support, empathy, or a new perspective! Win-win!
posted by jbenben at 7:56 AM on August 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
"When I was in high school, something similar to my mom's best friend. Her husband seemed nice, but behind closed doors he was doing X, Y, and Z. I remember how when they first split up my mom's friend felt like she was to blame for all of the problems in the relationship, she put so much blame on herself and went into a deep depression. It turned out much later the husband had a known history of a abuse/was indicted for a crime/was having an affair/etc., and this was the real reason he was so abusive and controlling. My mom's friend gained a lot of clarity and a new lease on life after the truth came out. She really felt blessed to be out of that marriage."
This is a technique you can use!! Then you are commenting about "Jane" and her awful experience many years ago, not gossiping about your friend and their partner. You still get to impart support, empathy, or a new perspective! Win-win!
posted by jbenben at 7:56 AM on August 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
I've been trying to ask my friends (and they've been doing this, too) what they would prefer: a sympathetic ear, commiseration, suggestions, advice, one-time badmouthing of a certain person or event, etc. I have one friend who generally prefers that I listen and commiserate; any attempt to offer fixes makes both of us frustrated. I have another friend who loves having a 'what an asshole' session about a certain person or two in their life.
posted by carrioncomfort at 8:07 AM on August 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by carrioncomfort at 8:07 AM on August 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
I've had people "blow up" over people I'm dating. Unless I'm already talking about how pissed I am it's usually hurtful and confusing. And it can definitely come across as judgemental - "you are so stupid to care about this asshole!" Which makes me less inclined to confide in that friend.
The tactic I generally take is to just listen and validate feelings, and after they run out of steam say "I think you deserve to be with someone who cares about you and takes responsibility for their mistakes" (or whatever is missing in the suitor's behavior). "You're a great person and you deserve to be happy."
posted by bunderful at 8:08 AM on August 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
The tactic I generally take is to just listen and validate feelings, and after they run out of steam say "I think you deserve to be with someone who cares about you and takes responsibility for their mistakes" (or whatever is missing in the suitor's behavior). "You're a great person and you deserve to be happy."
posted by bunderful at 8:08 AM on August 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
This may not quite apply in a case where someone's partner has actually left her or is egregiously abusive, but more in cases where someone is venting about (legitimately) bad behavior from their partner -
People don't intensely vent about the nice things their partner does, because they can share those feelings with the partner themselves. It's easy to miss a greater context of an ongoing relationship when piling on a offending partner. It's easy to make the bad behavior the overwhelming basis of your opinion of that person, when to the offended partner it's just one smaller facet of their relationship and in fact some of this frustration may be borne of incongruity with past harmony with and high expectations for a usually more sympathetic partner. Your friend may then feel compelled to be more guarded around you and defend their partner, despite their bad behavior, because your reaction lacks perspective and tenderness.
I think the safe approach here is to validate the person's feelings without deriding the offending partner as a person - a "hate the sin, not the sinner" strategy. At least until your friend has given cues they're really ready to go there.
posted by adiabatic at 8:30 AM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
People don't intensely vent about the nice things their partner does, because they can share those feelings with the partner themselves. It's easy to miss a greater context of an ongoing relationship when piling on a offending partner. It's easy to make the bad behavior the overwhelming basis of your opinion of that person, when to the offended partner it's just one smaller facet of their relationship and in fact some of this frustration may be borne of incongruity with past harmony with and high expectations for a usually more sympathetic partner. Your friend may then feel compelled to be more guarded around you and defend their partner, despite their bad behavior, because your reaction lacks perspective and tenderness.
I think the safe approach here is to validate the person's feelings without deriding the offending partner as a person - a "hate the sin, not the sinner" strategy. At least until your friend has given cues they're really ready to go there.
posted by adiabatic at 8:30 AM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think it's often best to just straight up ask "what type of support do you want from me here, because I am on Team You and I am happy to elaborate on how I think you are being wronged here, but I can also do straight-up focusing on helping you move forward, or distract you with cute kitten pictures, or whatever you want." Maybe also keep in the back of your mind that yes, they may still get back together, and you may find yourself in an awkward position if you really blasted the guy. Which may be worth it or not depending on context.
posted by Stacey at 8:34 AM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 8:34 AM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I am definitely a "how would you like me to proceed?" type. And there are some cases where I am willing to go on record even if she gets back with him, and there are others where I'm not there yet or I know they aren't there yet so there's no point.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:54 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Lyn Never at 8:54 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I want to add that I think it is really important and okay to state when you think behavior is out of line, because people can get into situations where they genuinely aren't sure, or they're being gaslighted into thinking they deserve mistreatment because they have "issues".
I just think people are more receptive if you start with validating their experiences and describing your interpretation of events and trends ("It sounds like you were angry for a legitimate reason - that would make anyone angry.") and maybe speculation on his motivations ("He sounds pretty insecure."), and save the broad statements about the partner's fundamental moral character ("He's a first rate manbaby jerk and you can do so much better.") for later.
posted by adiabatic at 9:18 AM on August 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
I just think people are more receptive if you start with validating their experiences and describing your interpretation of events and trends ("It sounds like you were angry for a legitimate reason - that would make anyone angry.") and maybe speculation on his motivations ("He sounds pretty insecure."), and save the broad statements about the partner's fundamental moral character ("He's a first rate manbaby jerk and you can do so much better.") for later.
posted by adiabatic at 9:18 AM on August 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Suppose a woman friend breaks up with a crappy boyfriend and you say, "that guy was a jerk, you deserve better..."
Since a lot of respondents seem to be focusing on how this approach may backfire on you, it's worth pointing out that you can just say "you deserve better" without explicitly dumping on the (ex)partner or being untrue to your feelings. If you must weigh in, I vote tell her her she's awesome and deserves someone in her life who appreciates how great she is. Don't make it about the guy unless she does.
posted by deludingmyself at 9:44 AM on August 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Since a lot of respondents seem to be focusing on how this approach may backfire on you, it's worth pointing out that you can just say "you deserve better" without explicitly dumping on the (ex)partner or being untrue to your feelings. If you must weigh in, I vote tell her her she's awesome and deserves someone in her life who appreciates how great she is. Don't make it about the guy unless she does.
posted by deludingmyself at 9:44 AM on August 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'd support "her" ("her" in your question) feelings and argue against things said or done by "him," without labeling or denigrating him as a person. "He said you didn't cook him dinner enough?! What a lazy, worthless jerk! You're worth so much more than him! That is SO not your job. Wow. How unfair for him to break up with you over a reason like that! How frustrating! Breakups are so hard. I'm sorry you're going through this. My wish for you is that one day you find someone who constantly wants to cook dinner for you."
posted by salvia at 10:13 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by salvia at 10:13 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think you can go a long way toward helping without offering your own opinion at all, but just asking questions that invite your friend to think through her situation. "Wow, that's intense! How are you feeling about last weekend?" "Does that change the way you think about him?" "Do you have a plan for making things better?" "What does he say now?" Decisions that she makes on her own are going to be much longer lasting than anything she does reluctantly because of your pressure--but you can help her clarify her thinking. And if she says "Do you think I should....?" then you can freely say what you think with a good chance of it being heard.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:16 AM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:16 AM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I love how kind and thoughtful you all are. Thank you for your answers.
I think my challenge will be to bite my tongue, but you've given me many compassionate reasons why it's important to not be so reactive. Thank you again!
posted by Dressed to Kill at 10:33 AM on August 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
I think my challenge will be to bite my tongue, but you've given me many compassionate reasons why it's important to not be so reactive. Thank you again!
posted by Dressed to Kill at 10:33 AM on August 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
My best friend was kind, supportive and lent me a patient ear when my complicated relationship ran its course towards inevitable doom. She never disparaged him, was always polite, socialized with us.
When we broke up (very messily), all she said, over and over again, that I'm wonderful and I deserved better. Nothing negative about ex. No toxicity. As often as I needed to hear it. I saved those messages and scroll through them on particularly bad days that still sometimes catch me unawares.
Be that friend.
posted by Nieshka at 11:18 AM on August 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
When we broke up (very messily), all she said, over and over again, that I'm wonderful and I deserved better. Nothing negative about ex. No toxicity. As often as I needed to hear it. I saved those messages and scroll through them on particularly bad days that still sometimes catch me unawares.
Be that friend.
posted by Nieshka at 11:18 AM on August 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 6:54 AM on August 1, 2017